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rug

(82,333 posts)
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 08:34 PM Sep 2015

Suit: Job offer pulled after religious accommodation request

6 hours ago

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The federal government is suing a Twin Cities-area health system, alleging it rescinded a woman's job offer after she asked for faith-based accommodations.

The lawsuit was filed Wednesday by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission against North Memorial Health Care System of Robbinsdale. The lawsuit says the health system offered Emily Sure-Ondara, a Seventh-day Adventist, a job as a nurse in 2013, and she then asked to not work from sundown Fridays to sundown Saturdays.

The agency and Sure-Ondara accuse the health system of refusing to accommodate and rescinding the offer, and declining to hire her after she relented. The agency and Plymouth woman are suing based on the alleged retaliation.

North Memorial spokeswoman Lesa Bader says it doesn't comment on active legal complaints, but is committed to "equal employment opportunity for all applicants."

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/state-and-regional/suit-job-offer-pulled-after-religious-accommodation-request/article_dc763272-8553-589a-a2e6-d437a51f847a.html

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Suit: Job offer pulled after religious accommodation request (Original Post) rug Sep 2015 OP
After some soul searching... katsy Sep 2015 #1
Wow. Okay... Hortensis Sep 2015 #51
Okay what? katsy Sep 2015 #52
Katsy, I pushed the button by accident. I thought I'd backed away Hortensis Sep 2015 #64
Its a fine line. katsy Sep 2015 #68
Well, for all the noise around it, note that people are NOT able to use Hortensis Sep 2015 #70
You are correct. katsy Sep 2015 #72
You caught me by surprise, Katsy. I'm geared to be contrary. Have a very nice day. Hortensis Sep 2015 #73
And I know when I'm wrong katsy Sep 2015 #75
No, please, YOU should have a better day. Hortensis Sep 2015 #76
Wow! What a wonderful sub thread. Thanks, you two. longship Sep 2015 #84
I don't know about around the Twin Cities Erich Bloodaxe BSN Sep 2015 #2
Oopsie! They aren't allowed to do that. longship Sep 2015 #3
What bull nichomachus Sep 2015 #5
"I care if you can work during the times I'm hiring you to work." rug Sep 2015 #6
Actually it is nichomachus Sep 2015 #9
Actually, it isn't. rug Sep 2015 #13
Those are all isolated events that happen to everyone, even atheists Fumesucker Sep 2015 #33
These "isolated events" happens thosdands of times a day in every workplace. rug Sep 2015 #37
It's hard not to lose some respect for you when you start sandbagging on intelligence Fumesucker Sep 2015 #43
Very few businesses have that policy. rug Sep 2015 #53
That's why the government needs to mandate it Fumesucker Sep 2015 #69
That's what the EEOC is doing in this case. rug Sep 2015 #74
It seems that somebody thinks temporary and Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #40
It's sad watching a person waste a good intellect defending the indefensible Fumesucker Sep 2015 #44
And yet it happens all day long, every single day. cleanhippie Sep 2015 #45
I think some smart people are prone to getting into feedback loops Fumesucker Sep 2015 #47
Or their just plain assholes. cleanhippie Sep 2015 #49
... Fumesucker Sep 2015 #50
You, of all people, should be cautious using that word. rug Sep 2015 #63
How about you just point out the flaw in the argument instead of musing about trolling. rug Sep 2015 #62
Some people are just convinced that their shit doesn't stink. Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #66
And some are just compelled to toss it. rug Sep 2015 #67
It seems that somebody does not read very well. rug Sep 2015 #61
I would be upset if I had to extra weekend shifts so somebody else could be off Friday and Sat Travis_0004 Sep 2015 #10
No, I wouldn't. I would be upset if the boss didn't hire enogh workers to get the job done. rug Sep 2015 #14
He did hire enough, but some don't work weekend nights, so now there are not enough Travis_0004 Sep 2015 #16
And if someone needs an accommodation, be it for religion or disability, she gets it. rug Sep 2015 #22
If someone needs a reasonable accommodation they get it. What's "reasonable" is the question. Silent3 Sep 2015 #36
That is precisely the qestion. rug Sep 2015 #38
My problem is the difference between protection and accomodation. Silent3 Sep 2015 #39
Thats the key, self-imposed limitations. cleanhippie Sep 2015 #48
"Am I to view religious beliefs as a form of disability?" cleanhippie Sep 2015 #46
Um! That would be religious discrimination. longship Sep 2015 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author snagglepuss Sep 2015 #30
It isn't a first amendment issue. Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #41
Well, that is why the EEOC is involved. longship Sep 2015 #42
So...if a hospital happened to hire (unknowingly) 25 doctors and nurses, people would have to fend.. BlueJazz Sep 2015 #4
This "religious beliefs" bullshit is getting out of control nichomachus Sep 2015 #7
Ah, so you are a boss. rug Sep 2015 #8
Well thanks for making a sweeping unsupported judgment nichomachus Sep 2015 #12
Free exercise clause. First amendment. Pretty simple actually. longship Sep 2015 #17
The only sweeping unsppoted judgments I see are in yor posts. rug Sep 2015 #20
I'm not so sure being a boss means he is anti workers rights Travis_0004 Sep 2015 #15
Tell that to an Orthodox Jew or a Seventh Day Adventist. longship Sep 2015 #19
Jews and Seventh Day Adventists are welcome to work there teenagebambam Sep 2015 #28
There is two issues here, my friend. longship Sep 2015 #35
So if one is hired to work the 3rd shift M-F because they applied for that position... cleanhippie Sep 2015 #54
That is not an analogous situation. longship Sep 2015 #56
But that's my point, why is this being considered discrimination at all? cleanhippie Sep 2015 #57
Well, the EEOC filed the case. longship Sep 2015 #59
Why should believing in one of those religions be the only reason you can't not hire them? cleanhippie Sep 2015 #55
"Can't not hire them"??????? longship Sep 2015 #58
I feel like you are intentionally ignoring my questions to you. cleanhippie Sep 2015 #71
Yes, but only to the extent that it does not violate federal law. longship Sep 2015 #77
Read my post below concerning the details of the case, below. longship Sep 2015 #80
One day... MellowDem Sep 2015 #18
In the sweet by and by rug Sep 2015 #21
Religious accommodation is discrimatory towards non-believers Lordquinton Sep 2015 #65
Do they give their Jewish employees that same sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, and do they give Squinch Sep 2015 #23
I would be interested to know if she "relented" after consulting with a pastor Adsos Letter Sep 2015 #24
The article doesn't say but this is the SDA stated position: rug Sep 2015 #25
Hospitals, clinics, etc., as well as schools. Adsos Letter Sep 2015 #26
I think you're right about the police and fire departments. It's a logical extension. rug Sep 2015 #27
. Adsos Letter Sep 2015 #29
The answer is "yes". She relented, and then the offer was withdrawn. longship Sep 2015 #85
Thank you, longship. Adsos Letter Sep 2015 #86
Anyone wanting to work in the health care field, SheilaT Sep 2015 #31
I agree completely. Ilsa Sep 2015 #32
Perhaps she should apply for a job SoCalNative Sep 2015 #34
The key issue here is TIMING. TygrBright Sep 2015 #60
It's worse than that, Bright. longship Sep 2015 #81
VERY low. Also *stupid.* TygrBright Sep 2015 #82
Here are the details, from the EEOC. longship Sep 2015 #78
Thanks for finding the details. rug Sep 2015 #79
You're welcome, rug. Glad to oblige. longship Sep 2015 #83

katsy

(4,246 posts)
1. After some soul searching...
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 08:45 PM
Sep 2015

I found my inner soul-less one and have to say that I find faith based accommodations to be bs across the board.

katsy

(4,246 posts)
52. Okay what?
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 03:02 PM
Sep 2015

At what point does this stop being an accommodation and turn into religious chaos?

stupidist. Law. Ever.

It can't be well defined or equitable to all. Tax exemption has been granted to a church of cannabis. Can they get an exemption to smoke weed at 3pm each workday? Because I'm all for that. If not, why not?

Any thing any belief can be an individual preference. What counts as exemption worthy?

I'm an atheist and find this whole issue odious and discriminatory.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
64. Katsy, I pushed the button by accident. I thought I'd backed away
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 07:10 PM
Sep 2015

as you seemed to have thought carefully about it and I should respect that.

It's just that these days many people on both the right and left seem equally fond of drawing lines that limit the right to liberty and happiness for others. I'm used to it on the right as I'm surrounded by right-wingers. But maybe this is just a warped impression picked up from hanging around forums like this one. I'm having a lot of "wow" moments here.

In any case, you probably see this as simplifying in a good way. I see simplifying accommodations for individual needs right out of the "rules" as something that fits better in fascist societies than free ones. I also feel sure Scott Walker and his friends the Kochs would approve.

Yes, religion is potentially dreadfully dangerous, but IMO, and that of our founding fathers, we deal best with religion through maximizing respect for individual religious freedom and minimizing its institution in government, and we do our worst by trying to suppress it.

Just my opinion.

katsy

(4,246 posts)
68. Its a fine line.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 09:55 PM
Sep 2015

As I see it in order to protect everyone's individual liberties, you can favor none.

I see the public arena as just that. Simply public. Personal beliefs belong to the individual. Simple.

In order to not trample other people's beliefs I was taught to keep my personal beliefs to myself.

If people have difficulty performing a job, it's not the employers problem. We aren't talking about shared hardships like sick days and maternity leave or vacations. These were hard fought for by unions for all workers regardless of "beliefs".

imo this religious freedom law is designed to tear apart secular civil rights laws by any lunatic who thinks the world revolves only around them.

Kim Davis and this person, iirc a druggist who didn't want to dispense morning after pills. These aren't freedom fighters. They want to exercise their beliefs at others expense. These laws are better suited to theocracies.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
70. Well, for all the noise around it, note that people are NOT able to use
Sun Sep 20, 2015, 04:08 AM
Sep 2015

the Civil Rights Act to destroy civil rights. They certainly keep trying, but erase all these laws and they'll not only come out way ahead by being free to discriminate based on their own religion, but they'll then be freed up to move on to other lines of attack on our freedoms. The fact that the religious right is trying to twist the law for their benefit should not make us forget that these laws were largely enacted to protect society from abuses by them, among others. The religious right furiously opposed passage of our civil rights laws.

I don't expect to change your mind, of course, but just explain my viewpoint.

In the case of the religious exemption law, it seems to strikes a workable balance between interests and to function acceptably in general. By far most employers are never called upon to make an exemption, but the "reasonable accommodation" and "no undue burden" clauses are available to those that do when they need to deny employment.

Note that for all the noise generated around Kim, the laws involved worked as intended, protecting society and her "employer," even if she didn't care to agree. How she sees herself is irrelevant, no matter how offensive we might find it, or how seditious in intent. What is relevant is that the law worked. It protected us from her. She does now have the option of filing her religious exemption claim in Kentucky after the federal courts have rejected it.

How about the other side: a young woman who graduates high school, studies to be a radiology technician, and then cannot get a job within 2 hours of her home and family because she wears a head scarf? And cannot get another job at the county's largest employer, an insurance billing center, for the same reason? Something that does not affect her work in the slightest way but signaled to the Kims out there that she is not one of them?

Multiply these serious practical problems by large numbers in a nation of 330,000,000 people. They don't just prevent us from truly being a nation where all have the right to liberty and pursuit of happiness but also create significant social and economic problems for society as a whole. A very large and very diverse society needs to find ways to rub along without hurting each other. That's just reality.

katsy

(4,246 posts)
72. You are correct.
Sun Sep 20, 2015, 10:50 AM
Sep 2015

I am mistaken at times and fail to think things thru.

This is that time. And why I'm here reading du and grateful for people who open my eyes.

I can see why the law is necessary even if odious ppl use it.



On edit: Ty for your patience and for explaining it to me

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
2. I don't know about around the Twin Cities
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 08:46 PM
Sep 2015

but where I am, all of the job postings pretty much include the shift and day requirements.

So when you apply for a specific job, you know going into it what days you'd be expected to work. I wonder if she applied for a job that had a weekend shift, then, after being accepted, wanted them to not work her during that timeframe.

longship

(40,416 posts)
3. Oopsie! They aren't allowed to do that.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 08:48 PM
Sep 2015

That is clear religious discrimination. And no, they are not committed to equal opportunity for all applicants. They might as well put up a sign saying no Jews or Seventh Day Adventists need apply for employment here.

nichomachus

(12,754 posts)
5. What bull
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:00 PM
Sep 2015

I don't care what your religion is. I care if you can work during the times I'm hiring you to work. If you're applying for a job and have odd religious requirements, it's up to you to make sure you can work when the employer expects you to work.

If you're Amish, don't apply for a job as a bus driver. To do so -- and then claim you need a religious exemption is just plain dishonest.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
6. "I care if you can work during the times I'm hiring you to work."
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:06 PM
Sep 2015

Are you Andrew Carnegie or Henry Frick?

Switching a shift is such an unreasonable accommodation.

nichomachus

(12,754 posts)
9. Actually it is
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:09 PM
Sep 2015

And it impacts other employees. If you are unavailable at certain times for any reason, not just religious, you need to make that clear up front -- not spring it on them after you get the job. Otherwise you are being dishonest, and I wouldn't want you working for me anyway.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
13. Actually, it isn't.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:12 PM
Sep 2015

Tell that to a worker going on a prenatal checkup, or a funeral, or a school event or any other personal matter that is none of your business. While they're gone you can count all the money you're not paying them.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
33. Those are all isolated events that happen to everyone, even atheists
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 03:25 AM
Sep 2015

Not quite the same thing as requiring 24 hours of unavailability every week, that really does put an onus on others to cover your ass on an ongoing and consistent basis.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
37. These "isolated events" happens thosdands of times a day in every workplace.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 09:44 AM
Sep 2015

I haven't even mentioned Ramadan, Confirmation practices or weddings. It's a fact of human life. Corporate practices should never be allowed to trump that.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
43. It's hard not to lose some respect for you when you start sandbagging on intelligence
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:25 PM
Sep 2015

You are much smarter than many of the arguments you make, this one being an excellent example.

I think an employee should have a government mandated number of free days per month or year that they simply don't have to explain and may not be punished for taking. Your boss is not your mother and it's none of their business in the first place why you can't come to work a certain percentage of the time and virtually everyone runs into those situations occasionally.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
53. Very few businesses have that policy.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 03:20 PM
Sep 2015

I've heard a lot in here about religious privilege. I don't understand the deference given so blandly to corporate privilege.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
69. That's why the government needs to mandate it
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 11:13 PM
Sep 2015

If they can mandate we have to buy corporate insurance they can mandate we get some time for personal crises that we don't have to explain to our mommie bosses.

Special favored status only for the religious doesn't do anything to oppose corporate privilege. Maybe we need a religion that requires its members only work 9-5 Monday through Friday, all other times being "holy".

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
40. It seems that somebody thinks temporary and
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:06 PM
Sep 2015

permanent are equivalent. However if you attempt to pin him down on his obvious analogy fail he will just switch gears.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
44. It's sad watching a person waste a good intellect defending the indefensible
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:36 PM
Sep 2015

I always wonder if the more extreme of quite a few strains of thought here are really trolling rather than sincere belief, Poe's law should be kept in mind at all times.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
47. I think some smart people are prone to getting into feedback loops
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:57 PM
Sep 2015

It's something I have to watch in my own behavior, luckily I'm sufficiently ADD that I can't stick with any of my own obsessions long enough to really go around the bend with them.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
61. It seems that somebody does not read very well.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 05:04 PM
Sep 2015

Generally, it's a sign of integrity to attack someone directly, not obliquely. If that is a concern of yours, warren.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
10. I would be upset if I had to extra weekend shifts so somebody else could be off Friday and Sat
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:11 PM
Sep 2015

Wouldn't you?

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
16. He did hire enough, but some don't work weekend nights, so now there are not enough
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:15 PM
Sep 2015

If one person works less, somebody else works more. Thats just the way it works.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
22. And if someone needs an accommodation, be it for religion or disability, she gets it.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:28 PM
Sep 2015

That's just the way it works.

Silent3

(15,274 posts)
36. If someone needs a reasonable accommodation they get it. What's "reasonable" is the question.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 09:43 AM
Sep 2015

Speaking personally, not interpreting current law, I would consider it unreasonable to have to hire two new when hiring only one new person who was willing to work the same shifts as everyone else would have covered all of the days and shifts that needed to be covered. It would be especially unreasonable for a small business.

As a coworker of the person demanding special accommodations, I'd feel unfairly put out having to give up more of my weekends than I otherwise would to indulge someone else's superstitions. On the other hand, I wouldn't resent helping someone out who had a disability.

Am I to view religious beliefs as a form of disability?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
38. That is precisely the qestion.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 09:49 AM
Sep 2015

There is a lot of disagreement, and agreement, with your examples, which is precisely why the EEOC, and then the courts, exists.

You are free to view religious beliefs as a disability so long as you also consider the First Amendment to be the disabling condition.

You don't really need a list of all the protected classes covered by the Fourteenth Amendment, do you?

Silent3

(15,274 posts)
39. My problem is the difference between protection and accomodation.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 10:01 AM
Sep 2015

Last edited Sat Sep 19, 2015, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

They aren't always the same thing. Accommodation has a way of turning into special privilege. I have no desire to give religious people special privileges at my expense.

At a certain point (for me, it's a point reached easily) I expect religious believers to bear the brunt of the inconveniences and costs caused by their silly self-imposed limitations. They are self-imposed limitations, not at all similar to the limitations caused by disability.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
48. Thats the key, self-imposed limitations.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:58 PM
Sep 2015

What makes one person being unable to work on a certain day because of their choice of religious beliefs any different from another that chooses not to work on a certain day for non-religious reasons?

The only difference I see is that the one that says "god commands me to not work this day" gets a pass, but the one that says, "I can't work that day because my favorite TV shows are on" gets fired.

Both are personal choices, why are both not protected under the law?

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
46. "Am I to view religious beliefs as a form of disability?"
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:54 PM
Sep 2015

Uhm, I think you just may be on to something here.

longship

(40,416 posts)
11. Um! That would be religious discrimination.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:12 PM
Sep 2015

Which is against federal law, which is why the Feds are appropriately taking them into court.

What about the first amendment do people not understand here?

Response to longship (Reply #11)

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
41. It isn't a first amendment issue.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:09 PM
Sep 2015

You might want to freshen up on your understanding of the 1st. It might be a violation of various federal anti discrimination laws, but again, that is not a 1st amendment issue.

longship

(40,416 posts)
42. Well, that is why the EEOC is involved.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 01:25 PM
Sep 2015

But those laws might not have been written without the First Amendment free expression clause. And this case really is about free expression at its core.

So there's that.

But I generally agree, Warren. I stand corrected.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
4. So...if a hospital happened to hire (unknowingly) 25 doctors and nurses, people would have to fend..
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 08:55 PM
Sep 2015

...for themselves Friday evening until Saturday evening.

nichomachus

(12,754 posts)
7. This "religious beliefs" bullshit is getting out of control
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:06 PM
Sep 2015

As a potential employee, you need to find out the requirements of the job and determine whether you can meet them. If you can't, don't apply for the job. If you do, you're being dishonest.
It's really not that hard.

I once had a guy apply for a job as a sports reporter covering high school sports -- but he couldn't work Friday night or Saturday. Guess when 90 percent of high school sports are played.

So basically, I would have been paying him for sitting around on his ass all week.

If You have restrictions on your time -- for any reason, not just religious -- you need to make that clear during the interview, not after you accept the job.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
8. Ah, so you are a boss.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:09 PM
Sep 2015

That explains your complete contempt for workers' rights and the First Amendment.

nichomachus

(12,754 posts)
12. Well thanks for making a sweeping unsupported judgment
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:12 PM
Sep 2015

Not all bosses are bad -- and not all employees are saints. Some of them are dishonest -- like people who take jobs under false pretenses.

How in the world is this a first amendment issue? That's just a breathtakingly stupid statement.

But now we can see why you never were a boss.

longship

(40,416 posts)
17. Free exercise clause. First amendment. Pretty simple actually.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:16 PM
Sep 2015

You did notice that it is the federal government taking the action, didn't you?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
20. The only sweeping unsppoted judgments I see are in yor posts.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:19 PM
Sep 2015

I would not even deign to discuss with you the relative merits of bosses versus workers.

But I will say this about the First Amendment: exactly which constitutional right do you think the EEOC is enforcing?

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
15. I'm not so sure being a boss means he is anti workers rights
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:14 PM
Sep 2015

I'll admit that I'm a boss to. I own a gas station. If I have a sign that says 'now hiring 3rd shift, and somebody can only work 1st shift, I'm not going to hire them. I'll tell them to wait until there is an opening on 1st shift then apply.

I don't think its unreasable for a hospital to be open on weekends, and I don't think its unreasonable for employees to work a few weekends. I get it, everybody wants Friday and Sat off, but that is not always possible.

longship

(40,416 posts)
19. Tell that to an Orthodox Jew or a Seventh Day Adventist.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:18 PM
Sep 2015

Or just put a sign on the employment office door: "No Jews or Seventh Day Adventists allowed to work here."

teenagebambam

(1,592 posts)
28. Jews and Seventh Day Adventists are welcome to work there
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:26 PM
Sep 2015

as long as they can fulfill the required duties at the required times.

longship

(40,416 posts)
35. There is two issues here, my friend.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:49 AM
Sep 2015

1. An employer cannot discriminate because of religion. That's federal law and is why the EEOC is involved with this.

2. The First Amendment of the US Constitution free exercise clause.

Then there's this:
Apparently the federal government thinks this is important enough that they are taking this action.

So there's that.

I have worked with Seventh Day Adventists on multiple occasions. And even though the whole team is working seven days a week, the Seventh Day Adventists did not work on Saturday. Ever.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
54. So if one is hired to work the 3rd shift M-F because they applied for that position...
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 03:57 PM
Sep 2015

After they get hired they say, "oh, BTW, I can't work Tuesdays and Wednesday at all", the employer is now legally bound to accommodate that?

longship

(40,416 posts)
56. That is not an analogous situation.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:17 PM
Sep 2015

There are federal laws against discrimination for race, sex, religion, etc.

I've had friends who are Orthodox Jews and Seventh Day Adventists. Some of them have been coworkers. They do not work on the sabbath.

Now it was the Feds who are intervening here on this woman's behalf, the EEOC, whose job it is to protect people like this woman from discrimination.

My position is that this appears like a discriminatory action, something that no employer should be able to get away with. So the EEOC action seems appropriate. Apparently the EEOC agrees, since they have gotten involved. You apparently disagree.

I guess we will have to see how this pans out.


My best to you.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
57. But that's my point, why is this being considered discrimination at all?
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:22 PM
Sep 2015

Her job offer was rescinded not because she's a SDA (illegal discrimination), but because after she was hired she informed management she was unable to perform the job she was hired to do.

Had she informed the Company during the interview process that she was unable to work on certain days, she likely would not have been hired.

longship

(40,416 posts)
59. Well, the EEOC filed the case.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:26 PM
Sep 2015

Apparently they disagree with you. As do I, a lifelong atheist.

So we'll have to just see how it works out.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
55. Why should believing in one of those religions be the only reason you can't not hire them?
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:11 PM
Sep 2015

If I had the same restrictions on my time I imposed on my employer, but were not for traditional "religious beliefs", I'd be terminated, or not hired at all.

Are we really saying that if an applicant applies for a job that has specific time, dress, and description of the work to be performed, but the applicant states that they are unable to follow those requirements due to personal choice of belief, we cannot use that as justification for not hiring them?

This is different from not hiring them because they are <insert religious belief here>, because THAT is actual discrimination. This is not hiring them because they choose not to be qualified for the job.

longship

(40,416 posts)
58. "Can't not hire them"???????
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:24 PM
Sep 2015

She was made an offer which was reneged on by the employer only when they found out that as a Seventh Day Adventist she would not work on the sabbath.

There was no "can't not hire" involved. She was hired! They made her an offer.

Sorry my friend, your arguments are not convincing to me, let alone your analogies.

Let's see how this works out.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
71. I feel like you are intentionally ignoring my questions to you.
Sun Sep 20, 2015, 10:31 AM
Sep 2015

I've asked several times and you continue to ignore it. I'll try once again.

Are we really saying that if an applicant applies for a job that has specific time, dress, and description of the work to be performed, but the applicant states that they are unable to follow those requirements due to personal choice of belief, we cannot use that as justification for not hiring them?

longship

(40,416 posts)
77. Yes, but only to the extent that it does not violate federal law.
Sun Sep 20, 2015, 04:46 PM
Sep 2015

Which is what I have been trying to post about. Apparently the federal government agrees with me, as the EEOC is who has filed charges, which is what I have also been trying to post about.

So, if you have a problem with this, I suggest that you take it up with them. I have no jurisdiction in the matter except that I agree with them filing the charges. You disagree, and I am fine with that.

So why do you keep pressing points which I have clearly stated that I disagree with?

This is a clear violation of federal law, and your non-analogous arguments have not convinced me otherwise.

Regardless, thank you for your responses.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
18. One day...
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:16 PM
Sep 2015

I'm thinking the court will decide religious accommodations are unconstitutional. You can't give special treatment to people just because their beliefs are supernatural. That violates equal protection under the laws.

Because it used to go without saying that religious privilege should be accommodated when everyone claimed a religion, but now that people are ditching religion, the question of why religious beliefs should get accommodation and secular beliefs should not becomes louder every day, and every answer sounds more ludicrous than before.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
65. Religious accommodation is discrimatory towards non-believers
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 08:18 PM
Sep 2015

And like someone said, would they make am exception for e church of cannibis? Would the same people here who are cheering for her support the case of drug tests for them?

What about religions like Islam that have it written in that it's fine to break any religion code to accommodate real life? That alone invalidates all the head scarf lawsuits alone, not to mention endangering yourself on rhamadon by fasting.

Squinch

(51,016 posts)
23. Do they give their Jewish employees that same sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, and do they give
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:35 PM
Sep 2015

give their Christian employees Sundays off? And Pastafarians, do they get their Thursdays off?

If so, this is a perfectly reasonable request (though the organization that allows it has some pretty absurd practices.)

If not, Emily should be told to go scratch.

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
24. I would be interested to know if she "relented" after consulting with a pastor
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 09:53 PM
Sep 2015

I think the SDA Church allows essential services, such as nurses, police officers, firefighters, etc., to work Sabbaths.

Just curious as to whether this is personal conviction, or a misunderstanding of church doctrine.

The article didn't give any further info.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
25. The article doesn't say but this is the SDA stated position:
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:13 PM
Sep 2015
8) Seventh-day Adventist Health-care Institutions. Adventist health care institutions provide the only contact many people have with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Adventist hospitals are to be more than merely health-care delivery systems. They have a unique opportunity to bear a Christian witness 24 hours a day to the communities they serve. In addition, they have the privilege of presenting the Sabbath message by example every week. In healing the sick and loosing the bonds of the physically infirm, even on the Sabbath, Christ set an example that we look to as the basis for establishing and operating Adventist health-care institutions. Therefore, an institution offering medical care to the public must be prepared to minister to the needs of the sick and suffering without regard to hours or days.

- snip -

The following applications of Sabbath observance principles are recommended:

a. Provide emergency medical care willingly and cheerfully whenever needed with high levels of excellence. However, neither Adventist institutions nor physicians and dentists should provide the same office or clinic services on the Sabbath as they do on weekdays.

b. Discontinue all routine activities that could be postponed. Usually this means a complete closing of those facilities and departments not immediately related to patient care, and the maintenance of a minimum number of qualified people in other departments to handle emergencies.

c. Postpone elective diagnostic and therapeutic services. Decisions as to what is necessary or of an emergency nature should be made by the attending physician. If this privilege is abused, it should be dealt with by the hospital administration. Nonadministrative institutional employees should not become involved in making these decisions nor should they be obliged to confront the attending physicians. Misunderstandings may be avoided by making it clear in medical staff bylaws that only surgical, diagnostic, or therapeutic procedures which are not postponable because of the condition of the patient, will be done. A clear understanding with all who are appointed to staff membership, at the time of appointment, will do much to avoid misunderstandings and abuses.

Convenience and elective surgery should be discouraged or limited on Fridays. Procedures thus scheduled allow the patient to be in the hospital over the weekend and hence lose fewer days at work. However, this places the first post-operative day, usually with the most intensive nursing care, on the Sabbath.

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/documents/article/go/0/sabbath-observance/

It appears routine, non-emergency medical care is to be avoided on the Sabbath, but never emergency care. The outcome of this case will turn on the nature of her position.

As it turns out, the Seventh Day Adventists themselves operate an extensive health care system.

http://www.adventisthealthsystem.com/

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
26. Hospitals, clinics, etc., as well as schools.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:22 PM
Sep 2015

They are major components of the denomination's work.

From what I remember, it is also allowed for police, fire, etc., but there has been change in these areas over the years, especially in terms of military service.

Thanks for the response rug.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
27. I think you're right about the police and fire departments. It's a logical extension.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:25 PM
Sep 2015

Can't say as I ever met an SDA cop, but I'd have had no way of knowing.

longship

(40,416 posts)
85. The answer is "yes". She relented, and then the offer was withdrawn.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:18 AM
Sep 2015

See my post down thread, http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=212932

Apparently your observation about the SDA church was on target.

The problem was that the hospital violated federal law.

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
86. Thank you, longship.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:23 PM
Sep 2015

So it seems she made a request rather than a demand. The hospital's action is being interpreted as retaliation for the request, hence the legal action by the Fed's.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
31. Anyone wanting to work in the health care field,
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 11:08 PM
Sep 2015

or as a cop or a fire fighter or an airline pilot, just to name a few others, needs to understand that they will be working weekends, holidays, and all sorts of odd hours.

I think that those here who think that people who apply to work in such fields, and then should be accommodated for their Sabbath, thereby dumping a greater burden their co-workers, I think that such people have never themselves worked shift work. I have. And you take the shifts as you get them. Sometimes seniority allows you to have the hours and days off you want, sometimes you continue to work your share of the crappy shifts so long as you're employed.


There are plenty of jobs, even in health care, that don't involve working weekends or holidays, such as in an office. Even if this woman converted to her current religion last month, she either works the shifts needed, or finds another job.

Ilsa

(61,698 posts)
32. I agree completely.
Fri Sep 18, 2015, 11:18 PM
Sep 2015

If you want to work at a hospital as a staff nurse, you're expected to work weekends once or twice a month. Apply for different work if you don't want to carry your share of those shifts.

TygrBright

(20,768 posts)
60. The key issue here is TIMING.
Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:34 PM
Sep 2015

The prospective employer SHOULD have stated the general hours and schedule of work BEFORE making the offer, and then asked the prospective employer if they would have any problems with the schedule and/or need any accommodations.

The prospective employee is THEN free to ask for schedule accommodations, with or without referring to the religious nature of the need (because the reason is irrelevant, even if it's easy for the employer to deduce.)

AFTER that, the employer is free to negotiate the schedule, with or without the accommodation. They can make an offer of employment, based on what's been negotiated, or not, and no harm/no foul if they don't.

However, if they DON'T discuss the expected schedule/hours, and make the offer, they run into just this kind of mess.

Sloppy HR procedure, very sloppy.

interestedly,
Bright

longship

(40,416 posts)
81. It's worse than that, Bright.
Sun Sep 20, 2015, 08:51 PM
Sep 2015

Read my details, below, from the EEOC.

She said that she would work Saturdays and they withdrew the offer anyway. That is a clear violation.

TygrBright

(20,768 posts)
82. VERY low. Also *stupid.*
Sun Sep 20, 2015, 11:53 PM
Sep 2015

This incident right here is why competent HR people and interviewers should ALWAYS bring up the hours/schedule and invite any accommodation requests and/or negotiation prior to making the offer, as part of the interview itself.

NEVER after the offer's been made.

To do it this way seems to indicate the offer was not a good-faith offer right from the start.

They're looking at a finding for the complainant, IMO.

wearily,
Bright

longship

(40,416 posts)
78. Here are the details, from the EEOC.
Sun Sep 20, 2015, 05:38 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:20 AM - Edit history (2)

PRESS RELEASE
9-16-15

EEOC Sues North Memorial for Retaliating Against Job Applicant
Federal Agency Alleges Health System Withdrew Job Offer From Employee Who Requested Religious Accommodation

MINNEAPOLIS - North Memorial Health Care, an independent health system based in Robbinsdale, Minn., violated federal law when it withdrew a job offer made to an applicant after she requested a religious accommodation, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), charged in a lawsuit filed today.

According to EEOC's lawsuit, North Memorial offered Emily Sure-Ondara a position as a registered nurse. Sure-Ondara, a Seventh-Day Adventist, then requested a schedule that accommodated her religious practices. North Memorial determined it would not grant the requested accommodation. Sure-Ondara told North Memorial that she was willing to work without the accommodation, but North Memorial withdrew her job offer anyway.

Julianne Bowman, director of the federal agency's Chicago District, said that in the EEOC's pre-suit administrative investigation, the agency learned that North Memorial specific-ally referenced the request for accommodation in denying Sure-Ondara employment. After the investigation, the agency attempted to reach a pre-litigation settlement through its conciliation process, but was unable to do so.

The conduct alleged in EEOC's lawsuit violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which protects employees and job applicants from retaliation when they engage in activities protected under the law, such as requesting an accommodation for religious reasons. The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Minnesota (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission v. North Memorial Health Care, Civil Action No. 15-cv-3675), seeks damages for Sure-Ondara as well as injunctive relief barring retaliation against employees or job applicants who request religious accommodations.

"Federal law protects the right of job applicants or employees to request a religious accommodation without fear that the request will lead to retaliation," said John Hendrickson, regional attorney for EEOC's Chicago District. "While Title VII allows employers to reject an accommodation request if certain circumstances are met, it is unlawful for an employer to take action against the employee based on such a request."

Jean P. Kamp, the Chicago District's associate regional attorney, added, "Job applicants and employees may request a religious accommodation at any time. Applicants are not required to notify a potential employer about an accommodation issue before starting a job, though that's what Ms. Sure-Ondara did. This lawsuit is about what happened next. We plan to show North Memorial's decision to withdraw the job offer after Sure-Ondara's request was retaliatory and unlawful."

According to its website, https://www.northmemorial.com/, North Memorial operates hospitals, clinics and other related medical services in the Twin Cities area.

EEOC's Chicago District Office is responsible for processing charges of discrimination, administrative enforcement and the conduct of agency litigation in Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and North and South Dakota, with Area Offices in Milwaukee and Minneapolis. The EEOC's legal team in its Minneapolis Area Office will conduct this litigation under the management of the agency's Chicago District Office.

EEOC enforces federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. Further information about EEOC is available on its website at www.eeoc.gov.


on edit: (Emphasis mine.)

longship

(40,416 posts)
83. You're welcome, rug. Glad to oblige.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:59 AM
Sep 2015

I stuck out my big fat opinion in this thread and I thought I'd better back it up with some facts.

As an atheist, I am willing to accept that some people have strongly held religious beliefs. Where it does not hurt the public or the beliefs are not imposed on others, I have no problem with that.

This is one of those cases, especially since the woman only asked about a religious accommodation.

As always, my best.

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