After Paris, let’s stop blaming Muslims and take a hard look at ourselves

[struggle4progress]

BEN NORTON

... Actual evidence .. shows that less than two percent of terrorist attacks from 2009 to 2013 in the E.U. were religiously motivated. In 2013, just one percent of the 152 terrorist attacks were religious in nature; in 2012, less than three percent of the 219 terrorist attacks were inspired by religion.

The vast majority of terrorist attacks in these years were motivated by ethno-nationalism or separatism. In 2013, 55 percent of terrorist attacks were ethno-nationalist or separatist in nature; in 2012, more than three-quarters (76 percent) of terrorist attacks were inspired by ethno-nationalism or separatism ...

A little-discussed .. fact is that the .. vast majority of the victims of Islamic extremism are themselves Muslim, and live in Muslim-majority countries. A 2012 U.S. National Counterterrorism Center report found that between 82 and 97 percent of the victims of religiously motivated terrorist attacks over the previous five years were Muslims ...

The Paris attacks, as horrific as they are, could be a moment to think critically about what our governments are doing both abroad and here at home. If we do not think critically, if we act capriciously, and violently, the wounds will only continue to fester. The bloodletting will ultimately accelerate ...

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_terrorism_double_standard_after_paris_lets_stop_blaming_muslims_and_take_a_hard_look_at_ourselves/

[skepticscott]

1. Silly red herring

Is this person really arguing that if the victim of an act of terrorism is the same religion as the perpetrator, then the act cannot have been religiously motivated? That's such deep horseshit that a shovel isn't enough.

The attacks in Paris yesterday were religiously motivated. If the author wants to act like they weren't in this case by pointing to previous acts that weren't, that's enough reason to dismiss them intellectually right off the bat.

[struggle4progress]

3. As a minimum level of intellectual integrity, one might naturally refrain

from declaring the actual motives here until the perpetrators' names are known and their personal histories revealed

Current press indicates a group of young men were involved; that they were organized in Brussels; that one or more were French citizens and one Syrian; that the explosive vests involved a notoriously unstable explosive (which suggests it was compounded shortly before the attacks); and that the war in Syria may supply motive

[skepticscott]

7. Apparently your "intellectual integrity" requires you

to ignore cries of "Allahu Akbar" from the perpetrators, or to draw no conclusions from it.

[struggle4progress]

9. It requires me to draw no conclusions from that fact alone but rather to seek enough evidence

before reaching specific hypotheses

Normally people do not make details plans to slaughter innocents en masse; nor do they normally plan dramatic suicides, such as blowing themselves with very sensitive home-made explosives

When people do such things, it is for me prima facie evidence of some deranged thought-process, and so I am suspicious about the real meanings of the things they say

One can, for example, examine the case of Faisal Mohammad, who attacked a number of fellow UC Merced students recently with a knife, before being shot by campus police. He was distraught at being kicked out of a study group and had specific students as targets. He carried a detailed plan with him, including beheading a fellow student while shouting "Praise Allah!" -- but perhaps the simplest interpretation is copycat grandiose dramatics, intended to guarantee posthumous attention

... In a manifesto found in 18-year-old Mohammad's pocket during his autopsy, authorities found a two-page, detailed document that included a list of his targets and his intentions, said Merced County Sheriff Vern Warnke. The plan included stabbing a police officer, taking that officer's gun and using it to shoot students. Warnke said Mohammad's motive appeared to have stemmed from anger he felt over being "kicked out of a study group" and that the plan was the result of the teen taking his fury to an "extreme level" ... Warnke added that there was scripted dialogue in the manifesto that revealed what Mohammad planned to say to students and to police as his plot unfolded. But, Warnke said, things did not go as planned ... Merced County Sheriff Vern Warnke said he requested the FBI and Department of Homeland Security to investigate Mohammad, and the result of the federal probe found "nothing to indicate political or religious motivations to what he did" ...
UC Merced student tossed from study group had 'manifesto' on violent revenge
By Katie Nelson, Ramona Giwargis, Mark Gomez, and Robert Salonga
11/05/2015 06:09:37 AM PST288 | UPDATED: 9 DAYS AGO

... In the two-page manifesto found in Mohammad's pocket by the county coroner, the student wrote a numeric list outlining his plans of who he wanted to kill, and how, including the beheading and shooting of his victims. 'No. 27 was to 'make sure people are tied down,' No. 28 was 'sit down and praise Allah,'' County Sheriff Vern Warnke told Fox News. 'I remember seeing four or five times, scribbled on the side of the two-page manifesto, where he wrote something like 'praise Allah' ...
Student, 18, who went on a school stabbing rampage which left four injured, planned to behead one of his victims and 'praise Allah'
By DAILYMAIL.COM REPORTERS
PUBLISHED: 09:00 EST, 7 November 2015
UPDATED: 09:19 EST, 7 November 2015

[Yorktown]

10. You draw your conclusions without taking into account different mindsets

Normally people do not make details plans to slaughter innocents en masse; nor do they normally plan dramatic suicides, such as blowing themselves with very sensitive home-made explosives. When people do such things, it is for me prima facie evidence of some deranged thought-process

You forget different parameters:

- it's not 'normal circumstances': they are at war to establish a caliphate
- they are not per se committing suicide, but asymetric military retaliation: the French have hit ISIS, they are hitting the French.
- they are not committing suicide, they consider they are dying in their fight, which is glorious and rewarded by 72 virgins (secies and sex undefined)

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Why don't you read the entire europol report that was cited in that shitheap you linked in the OP?

In 2013, as in the previous year, all court decisions in Austria, Belgium and the Czech Republic concerned religiously inspired terrorism. In two other cases of religiously inspired terrorism, two Dutch individuals preparing to go to Syria and join the armed rebel groups there were convicted by a Dutch court. The defendants were brought to court on several charges, including (preparation for) the commission of a terrorist crime. In the first proceeding at the Rotterdam District Court, the defendant expressed his wish to travel to Syria and join the armed fight there and had undertaken a series of preparatory activities, aside from booking tickets to Turkey and packing his suitcase. He had also visited websites, on which information about (violent) ‘jihad’ and ‘martyrdom’ was shared, and had sent multiple messages in which he had stated, among other things, that he wanted to fight on the side of the ‘mujahidin’ and also fight for the establishment of an Islamic state or the implementation of the shari’a. According to his defence, the acts described in the summons were not punishable due to the fact that there was an internal armed conflict in Syria and international humanitarian law was applicable. The court rejected this argument and ruled that the defendant, with a view to preparing to commit murder, had committed all acts as charged. The acts undertaken by the defendant were seen as preparatory for his departure to Syria in order to take part in the armed ‘jihad’ against the Syrian regime and to establish an Islamic state. With this in mind, as well as the personality and personal circumstances of the defendant and his established mental disorder, the court ruled that he should be placed in a psychiatric clinic for a period of one year.

[skepticscott]

13. They could have shouted anything they wanted

To argue that a deliberate and specific decision to voice a fundamental declaration of Islam at a critical moment is meaningless is just more of your "intellectual integrity".

[struggle4progress]

18. "... One of the shooters at the Bataclan concert hall Friday night cited France's intervention

in Syria as the impetus for the attack, French radio presenter Pierre Janaszak told Agence France Presse ..."
France Launches New Airstrikes Against ISIS in Syria
November 15, 2015 5:18 p.m.
By Eric Levitz

[Yorktown]

25. Are you implying it's wrong to support forces fighting ISIS?

btw, ISIS issued a price list for young slave girls. What do you think of it?

Oh, and btw, IS doesn't stand for 'revenge-on-Bush-State'.

Islamic State, is it religious? Religion selling slave girls in 2015..

[struggle4progress]

31. Do feel free to spend some time searching for posts from me in which I support

enslaving young girls --- or any other form of slavery

It might really do you good to practice using the internet in ways more substantial than bottom-dragging for outraged reactions

[Yorktown]

32. In your words, wasn't your comment #18 "bottom-dragging for outraged reactions"?

When someone quotes somebody verbatim, it is usually a form of tacit approval.

You posted a comment by an ISIS terrorist who said their attacks were retaliatory, thereby implying that it was a political-military retaliation, therefore clouding the central deleterious role of religion in this massacre.

This is why I viewed you post #18 as "bottom-dragging for outraged reactions" and asked you if you would mind seeing the ISIS price list for slave girls posted without comment.

It's called a parrallel. Sorry you didn't get it.

[Leontius]

26. The evidence is in now and it was Islamic terrorists.

These were not mentally ill individuals these were men dedicated to their religious dogma to bring about the destruction of the West and their desire to spread their version of Islam around the world replacing all other faiths.

[struggle4progress]

29. From barkeeper to suicide bomber

ROBERT-JAN BARTUNEK, PHILIP BLENKINSOP AND ALISSA DE CARBONNEL, REUTERS
FIRST POSTED: MONDAY, NOVEMBER 16, 2015 10:34 PM EST
UPDATED: MONDAY, NOVEMBER 16, 2015 10:42 PM EST

BRUSSELS - Two weeks ago, the mayor of Molenbeek ordered the closure of a neighbourhood bar where Brussels police had found young men dealing drugs and smoking dope over the summer.

Last Friday, the owner blew himself up at another laid-back corner cafe, this time in Paris, on a mission of retribution from Islamic State.

Brahim Abdeslam's journey from barkeeper to suicide bomber remains a mystery, along with the whereabouts of his younger brother Salah, now on the run as Europe's most wanted man but until recently the manager of Brahim's bar, Les Beguines ...

Hicham, also 25 and in blue tracksuit and sneakers, echoed that view of Brahim and Salah: "They smoked. They didn't go to the mosque or anything. We saw them every day at the cafe," he said. Brahim, with a voice "like Sylvester Stallone," could, he conceded, at times be "a bit crazy" ...

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/16/paris-attacker-from-barkeeper-to-suicide-bomber

[Yorktown]

33. Fyi, many islamists in Europe are ex-delinquents with criminal records.

Religion is an outlet through which some misfits can vent their rage.

A psychopath in a secular country goes to hospital. With ISIS, he can indulge his impulses.

[struggle4progress]

30. Life of Paris attacker Omar Ismail Mostefai

Angelique Chrisafis in Chartres and Courcouronnes
Monday 16 November 2015 03.57 EST

... “His wife didn’t work and they had a very young daughter, nothing stood out,” said the couple who lived opposite. “He was 25 at the time. He always wore trainers and a cap, he was tall, he had long hair and a short beard and didn’t dress in a religious way. He didn’t work regularly, he had temporary jobs. There didn’t seem to be anything odd. He didn’t have visits,” the woman said ...

He said Mostefai went to Friday prayers and observed Ramadan, but at that time he did not seem to be someone very “serious” about religion ...

A Moroccan 30-year-old who had attended the mosque since 2010 said he had never heard of any radical preachers there or heard of Mostefai. He condemned the attacks outright. “The people who do this kind of thing are born in France, they have an identity problem,” he said.

Mostefai’s relatives in France were being questioned by police — a routine procedure in such cases. His brother, who voluntarily went to a police station in Essonne, told AFP he had lost touch with him for years, after a family conflict, and he thought he had been in Algeria. “It has been a while since I’ve had any news of him,” he said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/15/paris-attacker-omar-ismail-mostefai

[Cartoonist]

2. Another herring

A terrorist attack that kills one person is not equal to an attack that kills one hundred. An attack that destroys only property is not equal to an attack that destroys two buildings with 3,000 people in them.

[Yorktown]

4. Saw that crap article in 'General Discussion'

I find the opinions of this author stupid and -in context- gross and offensive.

The bodies are still fresh corpses, and this imbecile tries to shift the blame mostly on ourselves?

The analysis is stupid: ethno-separatist conflicts are quite often religiously motivated. And some separatist 'terror' attacks are simply mafia crimes. The Europol stats are grossly distorted by counting attacks in Corsica as 'terror' when it is common knowledge the 'separatists' are mostly a crime mob trying to get control over real estate deals.

Anyway, in the case of the Paris attacks, both that of January and that of this November, the attacks had a clear religious -islamic- rationale. In both cases, the motivation for the killings is Islam. One interpretation of Islam, the one which is closest to the word of the 'sacred' book of that religion.

So the author might have been better inspired to tackle the key issue first, religion, before generously laying the blame on the societies of the victims.

[AlbertCat]

5. let’s stop blaming Muslims

But... didn't Muslims do it?
Was Paris wearing too short a skirt? It's her fault?


We need not necessarily blame Islam. But we can blame the Muslims who did it and their cherry picked version of Islam way before we can start blaming ourselves.

"vast majority of the victims of Islamic extremism are themselves Muslim" ...oh well then!... whatever that has to do with it. The vast number of victims of the Catholic/Protestant mess in the Renaissance were Christians too.

This is ridiculous. (but then religion always is.)

[Yorktown]

6. We need not necessarily blame Islam?

When the attackers do it in the name of an 'islamic' state?

These guys take a book, the Quran, and apply it according to their understanding of it.

The way they run their ISIS "caliphate", the way they fight the enemies of their islamic "caliphate" can draw a solid theological rationale based on scripture.

To not blame Islam is whitewashing.

If Jews started stoning people working on Saturdays, I would blame Judaism and the Torah.

Religious texts have to account for the consequences they cause.

[AlbertCat]

15. When the attackers do it in the name of an 'islamic' state?

ISIS does not represent all of Islam. That's what I meant.


But I don't for a minute think they are not Muslims and that religion is their motivation.

That's a problem with religion... it is ridiculous. People way too worked up over ancient superstitions and magic.

[Yorktown]

23. Yup. I guess I'd feel less irritated if believers owned up to the evil side of their texts

A Muslim accepting the literal word of the Quran is problematic.
A Roman Catholic acknowledging that 'no care for the morrow' doesn't make sense.

That will be the day, I guess..

[struggle4progress]

8. My view of history suggests genuine dangers in that manner of speaking

Didn't a communist burn the Reichstag? We need emergency powers! Communists to Dachau!

Fannie Taylor says somebody attacked her! Could it be one of them nigras? We gotta protect ourselves from them! Burn down Rosewood!

Frankly, I couldn't care less that you say We need not necessarily blame Islam: however, I do care that you say But we can blame the Muslims who did it

We know very little about this so far; and it is not at all clear what the motivation was, let alone whether the religion of the persons involved played any significant role in the underlying psychology. You've started from the assumption that religion is always ridiculous -- and from there, you are primarily interested in stressing the assumed religion of the attackers

It is a dangerous habit of speech, and one that can have serious and ugly consequences

[AlbertCat]

14. It is a dangerous habit of speech, and one that can have serious and ugly consequences

Criticizing religions is always a good thing. Criticize them from the outside.... in equal measure.

I don't think it's dangerous to blame people who actually did the deed.... especially if they claim they did it with pride.

Even if they didn't do the deed, but claim they did.... there's even MORE to criticize.


Pointing out things like Muslims also suffer under such atrocities is beside the point. Ridiculous.

[struggle4progress]

22. Everyone will, of course, agree that those who are responsible

are the ones who should be held responsible

Since France is currently bombing Raqqa, the official French view seems to be that the attacks were military in nature and require a military response

Meanwhile, at least a propaganda relationship to regional power struggles is evident:

The leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad all issued statements Saturday denouncing the attacks in Paris, where 129 people were killed and more than 350 people were wounded on Friday night. Dozens of Syrian rebel groups have also denounced the attacks in a joint online statement as "against human values." The joint statement, which also included the powerful Jaish al-Islam rebel groups, condemned "in the strongest terms" the coordinated assault
Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad denounce Paris attacks
15.11.2015

It is a credible hypothesis, that conflicts in predominantly Muslim regions will predominantly involve Muslim participants, and that the locals, who notice other regions taking sides due to various geopolitical considerations, will be predominantly Muslim. Of course, anyone, whose agenda is to demonize Muslims can then certainly notice at every turn that Muslims seem to be involved, but very little information is actually provided by noticing this

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Oh goodie, another S4P 'it's not religion' post.

Great. Fine. Nationalism is a problem too. Problem is, many of those nationalistic terrorist attacks are ALSO religious in nature, in that the warring nationalities are strongly identified to certain religions. You can't always separate the two.

Also, your typical google-news skim of the issue failed to reveal the meat of the Europol report.

You come up with this: "In 2013, just one percent of the 152 terrorist attacks were religious in nature"

And miss this:

"In 2013, 535 individuals were arrested for offences related to terrorism,[2] a number similar to 2012 (537). Most of the arrests occurred in France (225), Spain (90) and the UK (77). A continuous increase in the number of arrests for religiously inspired terrorism has been observed since 2011, whereas arrests for separatist terrorism have significantly decreased."

Significant resources are being spent across the EU to catch them BEFORE there is an attack. (Some methods we would consider civil rights abuses)

So when you herp derp 'the problem is something else', keep in mind the population you are referring to may be successfully combatting the problem you pretend isn't material.


At the end of the day, there are a host of factors, some even our doing here in the US. Economic warfare creates instability. Embargoes. Climate variability/change that dries up food sources. Water rights issues, crippling once-productive farmlands. Instability in the wake of war and 'police action' in the 'war on terror'. Fear, xenophobia, religion, nationalism, corporatism, all of these things are contributing to a lawless power vacuum in which chaos like ISIS can rise and thrive.

[struggle4progress]

19. There is no simple explanation for acts of terror

November 15, 2015 11.10am EST

... There are many reasons why people become radicalised to violent action, and a large body of research has explored them ...

Structural explanations can help us understand .. pre-conditional factors – circumstances that create the potential for radical violence ... There are permissive factors .. that enable future radicals to first find out about and associate with conflicts and terror groups ... Motivational factors .. include personal circumstances that could provoke the desire to fight ...

Separate from these are situational factors that .. act as .. catalysts for actions ...

A radicalised person may .. be motivated by .. ideology, or by a need for revenge or status ...

Profiling potential terrorists simply doesn’t work, and single-issue explanations .. are not enough ...

https://theconversation.com/paris-attacks-there-is-no-simple-explanation-for-acts-of-terror-50704

[EvolveOrConvolve]

16. Although I think our policies has a part in fomenting the extremism, I'll continue to blame Muslims

for acts committed by Muslims in the name of Islam.

I'm going to blame the Islamic countries that, while not actively sponsoring it, sit back and do nothing, even though they're probably in the best position to move towards a liberalization of modern Islam (Turkey, I'm looking at you).

I'm going to blame countries like Saudia Arabia that actively encourage radical Islam, in their case, Wahhabism, and turn a blind eye to the Imams in their country that preach violence against westerners and cheer the death of innocent men, women and children when these terrorist acts occur.

I'm going to blame countries like Pakistan that pretend to be a Western ally, while ignoring the terrorist breeding grounds in their own country, essentially allowing their country to be used as a training center and clearinghouse for terrorists.

If Islamic countries can't control the issue, and ISIS continues to commit acts of war, then what options are we left with? War? I desperately don't want that, but I can't help but wonder if some of these other Middle East countries (or at least their leadership) secretly hope for more war. With war comes piles of cash, and it gives these nations an opportunity to point as the U.S. as the bad guy, taking attention away from the fact that they run their countries as dictatorships, allowing them to stoke up a nationalism that helps their efforts to consolidate dictatorial power.

[Leontius]

24. Turkey may be a lost cause.

Lead currently by a megalomaniac willing to use fear of the "other" and repression to achieve his goal is where they are now and the opposition lost ground in the last election.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

27. And Turkey is a "Democracy"

If a Turkish Muslim votes for an extremist who implicitly supports the sort of shit ISIS is pulling, is it okay to blame them as well? (serious question)

[Leontius]

28. Yes it would be okay.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Although 'terrorist incidents' aren't often religiously motivated, the fatal ones are

2014: Europol reports 4 deaths from terrorism, all in a religiously motivated attack (at the Belgian museum)
2013: 7 deaths, 1 of which was religiously motivated (the British soldier run over and hacked to death)
2012: 17 deaths, of which 7 were definitely religious (3 attacks by a man in southern France), and 6 from the bomb at a Bulgarian airport, killing 5 Israeli tourists and their driver, which is thought to have been done by Hezbollah; this is arguably religious.

[struggle4progress]

20. Worldwide there were over 37 300 fatal terrorist attacks from 2012 to 2014

and you want to derive sweeping conclusions from a tiny handful of them

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Those are the Europol reports the OP link uses

It's worth knowing what the serious terrorist attacks are like. And I expect the fatal terrorist attacks have many religious components to them - Boko Haram etc. It may depend on what is counted as 'terrorist' - Muslim v. Christian violence in the Central African Republic? The revolt in Mali? All the actions of al-Shabaab?