In eastern Germany, the land of Luther, church pews are mostly empty

[rug]

On the streets where Martin Luther preached, about 85 percent of residents have no religion, 40-plus years after Soviet rule ingrained a deep skepticism of God and religion.



The Rev. Helge Voigt held a Bible that dates to Martin Luther’s time. Years of Soviet rule quashed faith in East Germany. (JERRY HOLT)

By Jean Hopfensperger
Star Tribune
DECEMBER 31, 2016 — 10:08PM

LEIPZIG, Germany – As a boy, Helge Voigt celebrated Christmas Eve listening to Bach’s Christmas Oratorio, opening a few gifts and savoring a special dinner. Notably absent were a nativity scene, angels atop a tree — or any mention of Jesus.

Voigt’s family was typical in the region of Germany where Martin Luther lived and launched the Protestant revolution nearly 500 years ago. While Luther’s legacy includes 72 million Lutherans across the globe today, on the streets where Luther preached, about 85 percent of residents have no religion.

More than 40 years of Soviet rule ingrained a deep skepticism of God and religion, and overt discrimination against Christians. By the time the Soviet tanks rolled out in 1990, Protestant pastors opened church doors to a people who had never touched a Bible and had been taught since childhood that believers were “unscientific” and “stupid.”

Christian leaders have been working here to keep faith alive. The holiday season offers a unique opportunity, as many Germans still attend Christmas services as a family tradition — if not an act of faith.

http://www.startribune.com/in-the-land-of-luther-church-pews-are-mostly-empty/409000045/

1:12 video at link.

[guillaumeb]

1. Intolerance in action?

As this short excerpt shows, when we are talking about intolerance, it is good to remember that intolerance is a human failing not limited to one belief system. Non-theists can be just as intolerant as theists when they have power.

More than 40 years of Soviet rule ingrained a deep skepticism of God and religion, and overt discrimination against Christians.

[rug]

2. A bit more indoctrination than reasoning going on.

[AtheistCrusader]

4. I agree, Marx was a bad man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_atheism

[rug]

5. You've alway struck me as an Adam Smith fan.

Without Marx there is no socialism.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. Well, we might call it something different anyway.

[guillaumeb]

7. Why do you feel Marx (and presumably Engels?) was a bad man?

Are you not a fan of class analysis?

[AtheistCrusader]

9. I was riffing on an idea you shared in estimating Dawkin's contribution to religious commentary.

Most of what Dawkins and Marx have said about religion, is congruous.

[rug]

10. Marx was a genius.

"religion should be criticised in the framework of criticism of political conditions rather than that political conditions should be criticised in the framework of religion"

Letter from Marx to Arnold Ruge In Dresden
November 30 1842

A few days ago I received a letter from little Meyen, whose favourite category is, most appropriately, what ought to be. In this letter I am taken to task over my attitude 1) to you and Herwegh, 2) to “The Free,” 3) to the new editorial principle and the position in relation to the government. I replied at once and frankly expressed my opinion about the defects of their writings, which find freedom in a licentious, sansculotte-like, and at the same time convenient, form, rather than in a free, i.e., independent and profound, content. I demanded of them less vague reasoning, magniloquent phrases and self-satisfied self-adoration, and more definiteness, more attention to the actual state of affairs, more expert knowledge. I stated that I regard it as inappropriate, indeed even immoral, to smuggle communist and socialist doctrines, hence a new world outlook, into incidental theatrical criticisms, etc., and that I demand a quite different and more thorough discussion of communism, if it should be discussed at all. I requested further that religion should be criticised in the framework of criticism of political conditions rather than that political conditions should be criticised in the framework of religion, since this is more in accord with the nature of a newspaper and the educational level of the reading public; for religion in itself is without content, it owes its being not to heaven but to the earth, and with the abolition of distorted reality, of which it is the theory, it will collapse of itself. Finally, I desired that, if there is to be talk about philosophy, there should be less trifling with the label “atheism” (which reminds one of children, assuring everyone who is ready to listen to them that they are not afraid of the bogy man), and that instead the content of philosophy should be brought to the people. Voilà tout.

http://marxists.anu.edu.au/archive/marx/works/1842/letters/42_11_30.htm

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Philosophically speaking, he was one of the greats.

I tend to agree with him; that over time, religion will fade to nothing.

That's why I don't say much about religions that are ineffective at influencing US Political policy. Pointless to make an issue of them, even when they run counter to my politics.

[Bretton Garcia]

3. Protestantism already saw problems in religion.

In their objections to earlier Christianity, the Church, protestants were often, with some justice, accused of being on the road to total doubt; to atheism.

So atheism was not forced on protestants as an entirely alien, external imposition. By 1520, they already had doubts about traditional Christianity. And by 1776, they separated church and state; halving the dominion of religion.

[guillaumeb]

8. As I see it,

Luther was not on the road to atheism. He spoke out against what he saw as the corruption of the Catholic Church.

And Luther spoke of the need to rely on the Bible, and faith. Hardly on the road to doubt at all. Rather the reverse.

[rug]

11. "And by 1776, they separated church and state; halving the dominion of religion."

So, you say the United States was founded as a Protestant nation?

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Protestants largely had control at the state level by force of numbers.

Which is why it took an additional 30 years for everything to work through the courts, and to allow catholic americans the right to own property, act as an officer of the courts, barred as a lawyer, etc, in all the original founding colonies/states.

[Bretton Garcia]

17. Kennedy was the first Catholic president

1961.

[rug]

18. John Adams was the first Unitarian president.

1797.

[nil desperandum]

14. 40 years

of Russian Rule would make anyone question their faith I suspect....

[rug]

15. Did you ever see this? Faith and the Holocaust.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2001/08/03/august-3-2001-holocaust-survivors-the-search-for-faith/13853/

[nil desperandum]

16. I haven't seen this before

thank you for posting, it is certainly an interesting look into the responses of those who endured what for most is unendurable...it illuminates exactly what makes faith so interesting, that in spite of what appears to be a lack of a god who cares at all some will still find their way to belief.

I'm not certain that speaks to god, or just our need to fine one.

I do appreciate the post, thanks again.