United Methodist Church strikes a strong blow in support of bigotry:

[dimbear]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/us/methodists-wont-change-outlook-on-homosexuality.html

Believers face stark choices: do you do what is right and moral, or do you do what is doctrine?

A poser.

[cbayer]

1. Disgraceful. I wonder if the vote is getting closer.

There appears to be a schism here, at any rate.

[trotsky]

2. Aren't Methodists one of the "mainstream" religions that we are constantly told...

are liberal and progressive in their theology?

[laconicsax]

5. Yep, and that they're also "moving" in a progressive direction.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=4172

[Swede Atlanta]

3. Their membership will dwindle and they will go to the dustheap of history.......

Demographically two things are clear:

(1) Membership in a spiritual affiliation is stable or growing with most people joining either an evangelistic "church" or those following the so-called "positive prophesy" "churches" such as Joel Olsteen

(2) Younger generations are progressively more gay-accepting.
My two nephews (in their early and mid 20s) said, "yeah, what's the issue" when I finally talked to them about my orientation as a gay man. They actually joked they hoped I would get a "hottie" and bring him to Thanksgiving dinner. This is the world in which we live. Increasingly isolated communities will not accept GLBT as "normal" and part of society's fabric.

So the UMC had better read the tea leaves or planning for their own demise...

[cbayer]

4. Agree. I think it's one of the reasons that the "nones" are growing

at the fastest rate. Increasingly, young people are going to be unwilling to be a member of a group that finds their friends "incompatible" with it's teachings.

So the Methodists can just keep doing this and watch themselves bleed to death.

My kids and their friends are like your nephews. They have been surrounded by GLBT people all their lives and they just don't get the homophobia. Kind of like I was when I first began to see racism.

[Staph]

6. It depends on the individual church.

We have an older gay couple in our church, here in socially conservative West Virginia. Both are very involved in church activities, and one of them is the president of the United Methodist Men.

[cbayer]

7. Apparently many individual churches are defying the hierarchal rules.

Good for your church. I wonder if there will be a real breakaway.

It appears that much of the push to retain anti-GLBT policies are coming from non-US churches, so we shall see.

[longship]

8. Aren't there multiple Methodist church hierarchies?

One liberal, the other less so?

Dr. Tiller, in Wichita was a Methodist, and went to church regularly. Indeed, he was murdered at his church by a RW wacko.

I think Methodism -- is that a word? -- can be interpreted loosely.

[kwassa]

9. The United Methodists did not strike any blow. It simply didn't change it's own policy.

despite a huge effort by some of it's members. The problem is that United Methodist policy is set globally, and church members outside the US tend to be much more conservative than those in the US. The policy can't be changed without a worldwide agreement. Many United Methodist ministers in the US have defied this rule and publically stated that they will perform same-sex blessings and marriages.

http://www.gc2012conversations.com/2012/05/03/pain-marks-homosexuality-discussion/

TAMPA, Fla. (UMNS)–At the end of an emotional legislative session around homosexuality, supporters of full inclusion moved from the outskirts of the plenary to the center and stayed there for more than five hours.

Tears flowed as supporters of full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people grieved the vote that would leave the words “homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching” in The United Methodist Church’s lawbook.

For more than an hour, delegates to the 2012 United Methodist General Conference debated whether or not they could say they disagree on this subject.

Supporters wearing rainbow stoles lined up around the outside of the plenary floor as soon as the session started and stood silently while the debate was ongoing. As soon as the vote was taken, they moved inside the bar and circled around the altar crying, praying and singing.

For the last 40 years, the church has not made one step more on either side of the debate. Many supporters were hopeful the 2012 gathering would strike the words in Paragraph 161F that state, “The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and considers this practice incompatible with Christian teaching.”

[laconicsax]

10. How huge is the effort when the proposal gets defeated 61-39?

With a voting body of about 1000 (numbers from the OP article), that means there were at least 600 delegates voting against removing inclusive language.

I've been told (maybe by you, I don't remember) that the opposition to inclusion comes from African delegations.

Do these African delegates simply outnumber everyone else by such a huge margin?

[kwassa]

11. The effort might note be effectively related to the totals, if the US doesn't have the votes.

I am not expert on the UM structure. In the Anglican church, the central African dioceses are wildly homophobic, though South Africa supports gay marriage. We are all autonomous national churches, however, with no overall governance. The United Methodists do have a global governing structure, and a majority must be behind any change. Not so with our Episcopal Church, we merely have to govern ourselves.

[laconicsax]

15. I should have read closer--it looks like the US delegates made up about 60% on the votes.

This year about 40 percent of the nearly 1,000 delegates to the Methodist general conference are from outside the United States — an increase of more than 10 percent from the last conference, in 2008.

If delegates are apportioned by population, the preceding paragraph indicates that the US would have had about 64% of the delegates. If that's accurate, it means that at least 25% of the US delegates voted to stay homophobic.

[dmallind]

16. Worse than that

If the US is 60% even if not a single vote for tolerance came from any other nation - a patent absurdity - then 60-39 or 21% of the voting body was both US and pro-bigotry.

But that's 21% of the whole. If the US is 60% of the whole then 21/60 or more than a third of US delegates went homophobe.

And that's assuming a zero non-US vote for equality.

Remember too this is not some small sadly lagging sect - this is the largest church in the "mainline" Protestant stable, and the third biggest denomination in US Christianity after SBC and RCC.

[cbayer]

12. In some of these kinds of assemblies, only a small group gets to vote.

While certain districts may send a delegation, maybe only 1 or 2 vote. Or the decision may be made by a smaller group specifically designated to discuss and vote on an issue.

I read this as 61 voted to keep it the same and 39 voted the other way, not as a percentage.

But I could be wrong. I again wonder what past votes have been and how this is trending.

There is clearly a schism, as has been pointed out, and the non-US delegates are significantly tilting the scales, though I doubt they have a majority.

At any rate, it seems that some congregations are overtly ignoring this.

[trotsky]

13. And they ignore it at their own risk.

The delegates also defeated a compromise amendment proposed by the advocates of equality for gay members, which said that Methodists can agree to disagree on homosexuality and still live together as a church.

[laconicsax]

14. It's a percentage.

The vote was 61 percent to 39 percent against the change to the church’s Book of Discipline.

And for some reason, I didn't connect the first part of this sentence to what I was wondering:

This year about 40 percent of the nearly 1,000 delegates to the Methodist general conference are from outside the United States — an increase of more than 10 percent from the last conference, in 2008.

Looks like the US delegation voted pretty strongly to retain the homophobic policy.

[cbayer]

20. Things are confusing.

There were apparently two proposals.

One proposal would have changed the Book of Discipline to say that gays and lesbians are "people of sacred worth" and that church members differ about "whether homosexual practices (are) contrary to the will of God."

This lost and the breakdown is 54 to 46%.

The second was a statement that

would have acknowledged a "limited understanding" of human sexuality and called on the church to "refrain from judgment regarding homosexual persons and practices until the Spirit leads us to new insight."

This one lost 61 to 39%.

The pro-GLBT rights members protested so disruptively that the assembly had to shut down.

Clearly they are having a very hot debate. Too bad they don't reconvene for 4 years.

Both quotes above from this source:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/04/methodists-homosexual-act-incompatible_n_1476042.html

[Leontius]

17. The UMC is a very bottom up type of church

in the US. The local congregations don't always look to the bishops as a group or general counsels for guidance in matters of conscience unless it is pushed by those objecting. It's always been that way, it is the history of the Methodists.

[cbayer]

18. Do you anticipate any kind of clean break by the churches that disagree with

this position? Or will they just keep ignoring it and do what they want?

[Leontius]

19. It's just the way they do things. I don't think it will reach the level

it has in the US Anglican church with African bishops becoming strong enough to take over US Churches. The history of being laughed at and ridiculed has given most Methodists a rare ability to see beyond bigotry in most cases inside and outside the church and seek to do what they believe is right in their minds.

[cbayer]

21. Interesting update. They were supposed to vote on gay marriage and gay clergy

resolutions yesterday, but delayed it until today because of the emotional nature of both issues.

I don't see any reports yet on who these two issues went.