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Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 07:43 PM Oct 2017

Tower of Bable

Gen 11:1  And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 
Gen 11:2  And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 
Gen 11:3  And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 
Gen 11:4  And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 
Gen 11:5  And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 
Gen 11:6  And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 
Gen 11   Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 
Gen 11:8  So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 
Gen 11   Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. 

So much for free will
If this god is all knowing then why does this come as a shock to him??
It seems this god is interfering in the progress of the people he says he loves

Here endth today's lesson

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Tower of Bable (Original Post) Angry Dragon Oct 2017 OP
People do have freewill but that doesnt mean god cant inject anything he wants Fullduplexxx Oct 2017 #1
then it is just freewill with conditions Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #2
People still have free will even if god calls an audible Fullduplexxx Oct 2017 #4
what is your definition of freewill?? Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #6
It doesnt mattet that you didnt say anything about hardships that was in response to god's love Fullduplexxx Oct 2017 #8
WHO says god has to be allowed?? Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #10
"WHO says god has to be allowed??" Not sure how to even respond to that Fullduplexxx Oct 2017 #25
post #8 read to me as you saying god needs to be allowed Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #27
Another Biblical literalist? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #3
so it sounds like the writers just said it was god when it was really man that developed languages Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #5
"god inspired the Bible" left-of-center2012 Oct 2017 #9
I never said that Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #11
My apologies left-of-center2012 Oct 2017 #15
that is okay ................ Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #17
To keep their people in line left-of-center2012 Oct 2017 #19
So if one story from the book is a Bronze-Age fairy tale invented to explain the unknown... Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #7
he is just caught in circle reasoning Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #12
True. Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #14
Taking the next step ... Mariana Oct 2017 #21
That's not really the next step. Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #23
Hey, you're forgetting something. trotsky Oct 2017 #24
Exactly Cuthbert Allgood Oct 2017 #18
A bronze age FABLE, not an explanation. AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #20
Do you take any of the bible literally, g? trotsky Oct 2017 #22
Straw man. Igel Oct 2017 #13
I ask of you to give me a definition of free will?? .. ......... not what it is not Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #16
These old stories are interesting and admit multiple readings struggle4progress Oct 2017 #26
If I read your post as you meant it to read Angry Dragon Oct 2017 #28

Fullduplexxx

(7,864 posts)
1. People do have freewill but that doesnt mean god cant inject anything he wants
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 07:59 PM
Oct 2017

As far as interfering well he's allowed to do that too

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
2. then it is just freewill with conditions
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 08:12 PM
Oct 2017

and that negates freewill

god says:You have freewill as long as you do what I say
to me that is not freewill

add: So much for a loving god

Fullduplexxx

(7,864 posts)
4. People still have free will even if god calls an audible
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 08:34 PM
Oct 2017

God is allowed
Perhaps it's more like god saying ... you have free will until i decide otherwise but
You can define freewill however you want
And just because things dont go your way or from time to time you find yourself enduring some hardship doesnt mean god doesnt love you.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
6. what is your definition of freewill??
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 09:28 PM
Oct 2017

and I never said anything about hardships
and who says god is allowed??
I have heard god has a plan but is allowed to change the rules whenever he wants??
Not much love there

Fullduplexxx

(7,864 posts)
8. It doesnt mattet that you didnt say anything about hardships that was in response to god's love
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 09:51 PM
Oct 2017

and god has he is allowed By the very.fact that he did (if in fact he did)

Perhaps he does have a plan perhaps not but he would be allowed to change the rules wouldnt he ? If it were rules that were changed.
From time to time I change the rules that govern my daughters' life. She doesnt always like it or understand it but i still love her

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
10. WHO says god has to be allowed??
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:11 PM
Oct 2017

It sounds like you are comparing yourself to a god..............

So you would be okay with your god sending you to hell even though he told you that you lived a good christian life because there was no room for you??

Fullduplexxx

(7,864 posts)
25. "WHO says god has to be allowed??" Not sure how to even respond to that
Mon Oct 16, 2017, 02:26 PM
Oct 2017

I am not comparing myself to a god perhaps that chip on your should is interfering with your reading .

Lol god sending good people to hell because there was no room in the inn....lol

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
27. post #8 read to me as you saying god needs to be allowed
Mon Oct 16, 2017, 07:56 PM
Oct 2017

I reread it and it reads strangely

Please explain your chip comment .............. I do not see a chip
You said that you change rules sometimes, must confuse your daughter
I do not understand why you are attacking me, I have not attacked you

Freewill goes past individual freewill. It also encompasses all of humankind. Freewill also includes mankind, letting mankind seeking their own path. It is said that god destroyed the Tower of Babel because he was pissed. Why not just let they figure out for themselves that the path to heaven is not a tower. God had to make the people not understand each other and scatter them. Just sounds mean to me. Why not let mankind find its own path to god??

God coursed Adam and Eve just for eating an apple to gain knowledge, yet you find it not possible for god to send you to hell.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
3. Another Biblical literalist?
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 08:26 PM
Oct 2017

I have not seen so many Biblical literalists since my last Southern Baptist Convention.

An alternative explanation, but one that might not serve your audience and your possible purpose, is that the story is a Bronze Age explanation for the many human languages that existed at that time.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
5. so it sounds like the writers just said it was god when it was really man that developed languages
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 09:25 PM
Oct 2017

giving god credit for something man did ........ gotcha
so the story is basically a lie is what I hear you saying
kinda puts to rest that god inspired the Bible

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
9. "god inspired the Bible"
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:06 PM
Oct 2017

Then explain:

"There are three versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible.
Two of them are very similar, Exodus 20:2-Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-Deuteronomy 5:21.
The third version, in Exodus 34:12-Exodus 34:26, is radically different."

“...there are two different and contradictory stories of Creation in Genesis, the first book of the Bible.
The first story runs from Genesis 1:1 thru Genesis 2:3;
the second story picks up at Genesis 2:4 and runs to the end of the chapter at Genesis 2:25.”

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
11. I never said that
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:18 PM
Oct 2017

I reread what I wrote and could not get out of it what you said I did
I was just repeating what I have been told over the years from many christians

I knew of two versions

To me the Bible was written by men with an agenda
not any women because the church thought of them as lesser beings
but there are books written by women that the catholics would not put into the Bible and even by some men

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
7. So if one story from the book is a Bronze-Age fairy tale invented to explain the unknown...
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 09:45 PM
Oct 2017

Come on. You can make the leap here.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
14. True.
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:26 PM
Oct 2017

But the hard one is always the first. Once you figure out it's fake, the rest should all fall into line with even a little effort. It's true of fairy tales, it's true of gods. He's got one story figured out. Now he just has to take the next step.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
21. Taking the next step ...
Mon Oct 16, 2017, 09:24 AM
Oct 2017

If someone has decided which of the stories are lies and which are true, which instructions should be obeyed and which to ignore, why take a next step? They've already figured it out. That's how we have thousands of denominations of Christianity, and probably millions of unaffiliated practitioners who each have their individual interpretations. All of them are sure they are right.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
24. Hey, you're forgetting something.
Mon Oct 16, 2017, 12:58 PM
Oct 2017

Half the fun is stopping at that point and arrogantly proclaiming others as "literalists" because they simply take different parts of the book literally than you do. Even better when you throw the label at someone who's simply bringing up a passage or story for analysis. "Hyuck, you dumb literalist! Everyone knows that part is allegory, unlike parts C, K, R, S, T, V, and Y which I take literally but don't really because I'm not a literalist, you are so there!"

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,921 posts)
18. Exactly
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:42 PM
Oct 2017

Now just apply that to creation. Come on. It's easy. The book is filled with Bronze Age foolishness.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
13. Straw man.
Sun Oct 15, 2017, 10:23 PM
Oct 2017

Free will isn't the freedom to do whatever you want; I'd like to be able to terraform Mars to make it a good place for slime molds. (Sorry, but I think myxomycetes species are really, really neat.)

I claim free will; I don't claim the ability to do anything I want when I want to do it. There are impediments--for example, the distance, as well as the fact that I can't terraform. Even during vacation, just not enough time.

Free will is usually something like "the ability to choose to do good or to do bad." Cain had free will; he screwed the pooch. So did Josiah and Omri. 'Nuff said (if those names mean anything to you).


As for "he says he loves," I find that my keen semantic sense tingles when I hear phrases like that. "Love" is a difficult word to pin down. Let's say you love somebody. Let's make it your 15-year-old daughter. She's asking for methamphetamines because she's been high and is beginning to suffer a bit. Do you (a) call the police and let government do its job (if not, why do you hate government?), (b) give her more drugs unquestioningly when she needs it to keep her happy (happiness is most important), (c) gently suggest that perhaps she might want to consider rehab as you give her all the drugs she wants (she's a woman, let her make her own choice), (d) force her into rehab and when she says 'no' say "okay!" and give her drugs (most American parents), (e) take steps to compel her to choose between rehab and really, really nasty consequences (manipulative parents), (f) let her face those nasty consequences when she believes you're a pushover and when push comes to shove, you're her chief pusher (tough love)? Stipulate that she's already to the point and you can't change the terms of the scenario to "But if I really loved my daughter she'd never feel the need for drugs."

And, if your daughter makes an insane choice, do you manipulate things to push her in the direction you know--since you're much more aware of things and have superior knowledge and wisdom--is best for her? Even as you let her make her own decision. Ah. Manipulative parent, free will.

Right. Different people will have different answers when it comes to defining "love". So which one do you impose on another person's view of God without wallowing in fallacy? Because it's a bit loopy to say, "Your god is inconsistent because he doesn't follow the strictures that I impose on him." Or do you ask what they believe so you can judge their god on its own merits? Since most people don't systematize their theology that's just asking for a world of mental hurt, but it's the best that a reasonable person can do.

Most parents--heck, many Americans--really don't believe in self-determination and letting people make their own choices, if that's the definition we want. "Sorry, the government knows best. You are not allowed to drive at 120 mph down the freeway without penalty in the belief that all vehicles will magically vanish." "No, you are not allowed to put in fish poison to kill all the snail darters so you can build you hydroelectric plant."

So do we believe in freewill? Or do we say, "Yes, you speed and kill people, but you'll pay"--and that's after putting police on the road and doing other things to limit the ability of people to be asses?


We take the "God the father", "Yahweh as protector," "Yahweh as husband" as nice metaphors and then treat them as meaningless metaphors. But theodicy is a triviality if you consider the metaphor: We all let our kids screw up because without failure there are no small lessons learned to avoid larger lessons. We all manipulate things behind the scenes even as we let our kids make their own choices in order to achieve what's best for them.

Kids often don't like the meddling. They don't see the meddling at times. They often can't quite figure out what the goals of the meddling, strictures, penalties are. Accept the metaphors as real or not, it makes straw men easy and really personalizes what's at issue. All you have to do is say that "a real parent wouldn't do that, s/he'd do this." As though all parents are the same.

struggle4progress

(118,292 posts)
26. These old stories are interesting and admit multiple readings
Mon Oct 16, 2017, 03:43 PM
Oct 2017

Some of the tales certainly predate the compilation of the Hebrew texts

The Babel story, for example, may convey multiple messages, if we read it carefully and intelligently -- an approach that could be justified once we recognize that stories are one of the oldest methods for transmitting human experience to subsequent generations

The older ziggurats in the region were mud-brick and would have deteriorated without constant maintenance. Even some of the younger stone ziggurats are ancient and lay in ruins by classical times: the Great Ziggurat of Ur dates to about four thousand years ago but was derelict before its restoration about twenty-five hundred years ago. Anyone viewing such wreckage might naturally have wondered about the significance; and over several millennia, accounts of temples could easily have mutated into an oral tradition about human efforts to reach heaven

There is also an obvious reading of the Babel account as an explanation for the existence of multiple human languages, which would certainly have been familiar in a region which traded widely and which was criss-crossed by warring troops over a long period: the likelihood of encountering people who did not share one's culture or language was perhaps an irreducible fact there, which needed to be accepted

Moral lessons about grand projects encountering realities or the psychology of defeated hubris could also appear in the story. I remember (as very young child before the Venera and Mariner missions) believing that I should be able climb up high enough to reach the moon and feeling skeptical about adult claims that it was too far away for me to do anything like that. In the Babel story, we see a grand project fail, as the participants find that they cannot communicate -- but perhaps the real message here is, not that there was a confusion due to multiple languages, but simply that project was doomed from the start; and communication problems can be either the cause or a mere symptom of grand-project-failure

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
28. If I read your post as you meant it to read
Mon Oct 16, 2017, 08:10 PM
Oct 2017

Why do they feel that a natural occurrence happening have to be attributed to god??

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