"Theism" means belief in a deity or deities.

[MineralMan]

"A" as a prefix, means "without" what follows.

"Atheism" means without belief in a deity or deities.

Simple, huh? It doesn't go beyond that to mean that atheists have no beliefs about anything. That's just silly. It's a simple word, with a simple meaning.

I am an atheist. I believe lots of stuff, based on evidence. But, I don't believe that any deity, deities or other such supernatural entities exist at all. That's because there's no evidence that they exist.

A-THEIST. A person without belief in a deity or deities.

How hard is that to understand, really?

[yallerdawg]

1. Still hedging your bet?

MM at the Pearly Gates - "I didn't mean You in particular - it was more a generic thing?"

[MineralMan]

4. No. I'm not even betting.

You could ask Blaise Pascal about that wager, but he's long since dead, since 1662, in fact.

I'm alive now. Someday, I won't be. That's true for everyone. Of that, there is ample evidence. I believe that animals die, and I am one such. I've seen what happens afterwards, from bones of animals lying on the ground. I believe things for which there is actual evidence. Lacking any such evidence, I cannot believe. So, there it is.

I've seen no evidence of any "Pearly Gates" either. Have you?

[Sneederbunk]

5. +100

[Lordquinton]

7. Atheists aren't hedging bets

You are. How do you feel your odds are that you choose correctly?

[yallerdawg]

9. Win/win.

What has been lost by anyone believing in something of value and altruistic purpose that might not be true in the end? Nothing lost.

What is to be gained by believing - and being right in the end? Everything promised

[marylandblue]

10. What if it turns out Allah sends you to hell for being a Christian?

[yallerdawg]

11. What is this fixation on hell?

The Five Pillars of Islam:

1) The Testimony of Faith

2) Prayer

3) Giving Zakat (Support of the Needy)

4) Fasting the Month of Ramadan

5) The Pilgrimage to Mecca

These are all things of profound faith, not some kind of threat.

[guillaumeb]

13. But some see them as a threat.

Or perhaps some need to perceive them as a threat.

[Lordquinton]

20. Yes, telling someone they will burn in hell is a threat

And scars many people from living their life, or keeping quiet about abuse.

[marylandblue]

14. Read the Quran, plenty of threats in there

And according to some interpretations, it's even worse than what the Quran says.

[Lordquinton]

19. Nice Dodge there

And following in your chiormate's habit of reframing.

[guillaumeb]

12. Do you mean God the all merciful?

That one God?

Or al Lah in Arabic

Or al Leh in Aramaic.

[Lordquinton]

18. You sure think highly of your beliefs

You are also discarding a third option; that you choose wrong and will face consequences for eternity. Do you accept that you could be in anlake of fire past the heat death of the universe?

[guillaumeb]

21. Do you think highly of your beliefs?

Would it not be strange if any of us thought badly of our beliefs?

[Lordquinton]

22. Holy non-sequiturs batman!

How about the rest of the topic?

[guillaumeb]

24. Does this represent your belief?

A lake of fire for all eternity sound as if you have accepted a version of hell.

[Lordquinton]

25. Where do you get that idea?

I was pulling from what the poster has said, as well as other descriptions of the christian description of the afterlife.

[guillaumeb]

26. But you presumably did post it.

You felt the need to post it, so it is fair to ask if you believe it.

[Lordquinton]

27. Ok, if you're not following the thread

why are you posting in it? If you had then you would understand.

[guillaumeb]

28. I understand. eom

[saidsimplesimon]

29. Badly vs what?

The mind of humans is so very complex. I have no religious faith. I detest the word "faith". My mind is open to the possibilities of facts that are yet to be revealed.

[guillaumeb]

30. Sometimes the revelation is an interior one.

One that cannot be measured or weighed on a scale.

[Lordquinton]

31. That is very convenient

Creating a position you never have to support.

[guillaumeb]

35. No, it is a position that I cannot prove.

And I have repeatedly admitted that point. But if you are an atheist, you also have a position that you cannot prove.

[marylandblue]

36. So if understand correctly, you think no belief can ever be proved?

If I don't believe in elephants, you can't prove to me that they exist?

[guillaumeb]

37. Why did you reframe what I actually said? eom

[Lordquinton]

39. Kinda right

A closer example would be leprechauns. You can't prove they don't exist, just like your god. Well, according to what you say.

[guillaumeb]

40. No, all incorrect.

I was speaking of theism versus atheism. And speaking of belief strictly in that sense. Either the responder misunderstood or had another point.

[Lordquinton]

41. You were speaking of unprovable beliefs

Which covers most of what he said, and all of leprechauns, Bigfoot, unicorns, etc.

[marylandblue]

46. Why is theism vs. atheism

different from leprechaunism vs. aleprechaunism, such one is an unproveable dichotomy, and the other proveable? Or do you think they are not different, and that both leprechaunism and aleprechaunism are unproveable?

[marylandblue]

44. I am not trying to reframe

I am asking questions to try to understand your position better. Are these questions not acceptable to you?

[guillaumeb]

51. I do not doubt you.

I was referring to the theism versus atheism belief choice.

People can use the word belief for many situations. Some of these situations concern things that are presumed provable by available evidence. I believe in the theory of evolutionary adaptation.

[marylandblue]

53. If you believe a thing that can't be proven

I would call that an assumption, rather than a belief.

[guillaumeb]

54. Shall we create a new dictionary?

The word "belief" is a difficult one to argue about.

[marylandblue]

55. We argue about it all the time here

I think the definition "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists," which seems sufficient for me. But you have stated many times that the existence of God is not provable, which makes it particular kind of belief, that is, an assumption which is, "a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof." So, for clarity's sake, I'd say you are making an assumption, to distinguish it from beliefs that can be proven.

[guillaumeb]

56. Do you believe in democracy, or fairness?

The word is used for a variety of situations.

I prefer to say that I have faith, which requires no proof. But the word "beliefs" is used to describe many types of things.

[marylandblue]

57. Yes, belief can be used in different ways

Which is why it sometime is not the best word to use. To "believe in" democracy would mean at least three different things.
1) That it exists - this can be easily proven simply have 3 people vote on where to go for dinner.
2) That it is good - this can proven as well, but is more difficult, because you'd have to define what outcomes are considered good and then measure how well democracy achieves these outcomes.
3) To assume that it is good - that can't be proven, as it is an assumption.

For faith, I found two different definitions that might apply

1) complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2) strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Which one are you using? "Faith" def. 1 would appear to be close to "believe in" def. 2, but would also require an assumption that the someone or something actually exists. "Faith" def. 2, appears to be the actual assumption that God exists.

[guillaumeb]

58. I agree with your thinking on "believe in democracy".

As to faith, it is belief without proof. Belief in something that cannot be proven. Or, similar number 3 in your democracy segment.

I have faith that there is a Creator, and I freely admit that such faith is unprovable.

[marylandblue]

59. Is there anything else you believe that can't be proven?

[guillaumeb]

60. Probably many things.

I believe that French is a better language for song and poetry.

I am certain that people could cite many examples if they wished.

[marylandblue]

61. But we know that French exists

Is there anything, besides God, that you believe exists but can't be proven.

[guillaumeb]

62. My actual belief regards the language and which language is better for poetry

and song. I cannot prove it.

[marylandblue]

63. But aren't you switching senses of the word "belief?"

You believe without proof (or have faith) that God exists. But presumably, in addition to your opinion about the superiority of French for poetry, you also have a belief about the existence of French, and this belief is based on proof that French is an actual language. Or do you believe that French is better for poetry, but can't prove that the French language exists at all?

[guillaumeb]

64. I believe what I said about the superiority.

And that is why I said it.

[marylandblue]

66. Alright, suppose I told you that

Prestigish (which nobody has ever spoken and has no sounds, gestures or written form) was superior to French. Would that even make sense?

[guillaumeb]

67. Not at all equivalent.

Belief has many connotations.

1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/belief

Apply #1 to my earlier statement.

[marylandblue]

68. But if believe that French is a better language

Then you must also believe that French exists. How could you believe the first without also believe the second? And if you could do that, how it would be different from believe that Pristigish is superior to French?

[guillaumeb]

69. 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction:

You seem confused.

I am expressing an opinion about the superiority of a language. I cannot prove that opinion. That is the entirety of the matter regarding my use of the word belief in this instance.

[marylandblue]

70. I am confused

It would be a contradiction in formal logic.

Proposition A: One language can be superior to another language.
Proposition B: If a language is superior, then it must exist.
Proposition C: French exists.
Conclusion: French can be a superior language.

Which one of the propositions is not a logical prerequisite to the conclusion?

[guillaumeb]

71. Proposition A is unprovable.

Thus the conclusion is also unprovable.

But you still seem confused. I expressed a personal opinion, (and it actually is my personal belief and opinion), that French is superior to English for poetry and song.

That does not prove that French is superior to English. It is simply, per the supplied definition, my personal opinion and belief.

[marylandblue]

72. Then why can't I say Prestigish is superior to French?

[guillaumeb]

73. You could if you wish.

But I was speaking of an existing construct, a French language that we both admit exists. I do not have to believe that the language exists because I know that it exists. We know that it exists.

But what I stated about poetry and song is an opinion that exists apart from the language. And that opinion is the belief.

[marylandblue]

74. In this case, your knowledge of French is synonymous with your belief in French

You know French exists, but that means you also believe it exists. Otherwise, it would be like saying you know the earth is round but believe it is flat. So your opinion of French is contingency on your knowledge of (and belief in) French.

[guillaumeb]

77. I grew up speaking French.

And gradually English as well. Belief is not part of that. But my statement that I believe that French is a better language for poetry and song is unprovable.

[marylandblue]

78. There is a difference between existence and opinion

You know French exists because you speak it, which is very strong evidence it exists. Even though I don't speak French, I know it exists, because I can find French speakers and documents in French. This is a matter of verifiable fact. I believe French exists because I have evidence it exists. I also know French exists because this evidence is very strong. French is OBJECTIVE thing that exists in the world, whose existence can be verified.

Prestigish does not exist. There is no evidence for its existence. The lack of speakers of Prestigish, the lack of documents in Prestigish all point to its non-existence. It is provably non-existent just French is provably existent.

By contrast, your believing French is superior is an OPINION ABOUT French. It is not proveable because it is an opinion.

Earlier, you said you believed many things that couldn't be proven, such as believing that French is superior. But maybe that wasn't quite the right questions. I will ask it differently now. Is there any thing (where a thing is object or concept described by a noun) you believe to exist, that you cannot present evidence that it exists? Examples of such things (that may or may not exist) are elephants, unicorns, planets, Tatooine, Australia and Narnia.

This is different from believing in a particular attribute of an object (which may or may not be proveable) such as, French is superior, Sugar tastes good, the sky is green, Europe is beautiful and Kansas grows wheat.

[guillaumeb]

79. Yes, there are other things that I believe that I cannot prove exist.

And given that we are in the Religion group, I will not talk about my belief that rap is not really music. Instead, I will say, as I have said prior to this, that I believe in a Creator even though I cannot prove that the Creator exists.

[marylandblue]

80. "Rap is not really music" is a belief in an attribute of Rap

Do you believe there is an expressive genre called rap without any evidence of such a genre?

[guillaumeb]

81. I have heard rap, and I admit that it clearly exists.

And my opinion, my belief, is that rap is not really music. But I also realize that many people disagree with this critical evaluation.

[marylandblue]

82. Right, so aside from God

Are there any other things (that is, simple nouns) that you believe to exist but cannot provide evidence for?

[guillaumeb]

83. Simple nouns?

So you are referring only to objects?

[marylandblue]

84. Yes.

On edit: Including abstract objects like French or justice, but not what in english are called "predicates." I don't know what you would call that in French.

[guillaumeb]

85. We use the same word:

prédicat, and it means the same thing. Justice is an excellent example, but there are many systems of justice. And one can believe in justice but stating that you believe in justice tells me nothing about the specifics of your belief.

[marylandblue]

86. Yes, but that generally is a noun

Last edited Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:47 AM - Edit history (2)

And regardless of your conception of justice, there is evidence that such a thing exists.

[guillaumeb]

87. "Evidence" meaning shared experience?

Yes, if we accept that definition.

[marylandblue]

88. What do you mean by "shared experience?"

[Lordquinton]

38. No I don't

As has repeatedly been explained to you.

[edhopper]

42. And all those

whose belief in a God has brought untold suffering to the world?

Where is this religion that is only of value and altruistic that you speak of?

As for that horrible, thin skinned entity in the bible, fuck him.

[yallerdawg]

43. I know it isn't newsworthy...

but billions of people everyday do great things for each other within their power.

You can choose to focus on the negative and make that your only opinion. Doesn't make it fact - not even close.

[edhopper]

45. You asked what is wrong with believing

I responded with the negative side of belief, that also occurs daily.

Again, what religion is ONLY of value and altruistic without all the negative things religion has brought.

You see religion as a win/win.

Where and when did that ever happen?

[yallerdawg]

47. "Where and when?"

I just told you.

Everyday. Everywhere.

[edhopper]

48. With out

any of the negative things it also brings?

Belief is only good and does no harm?

Where does that happen?

[yallerdawg]

49. Quiet, unrecognized acts of charity, aid, outreach and love...

go on each and everyday around the world.

Because it is so common and so prevalent, it isn't news.

It's life!

[edhopper]

50. And this is because of God?

And none of the horrible acts done in his name reflect on him?

Again, wiw/win implies no down side to belief.

I hear the same shit from all those evangelicals supporting Trump

[Mariana]

75. This is an old story, edhopper.

When religious people do good things, it is because their religion instructs or inspires them to do it.. When religious people do bad things, it is always in spite of their religion, or because they aren't true followers of that religion, or because they're using religion as a cover for their real, non-religious reason, or whatever other desperate excuse comes to mind.

Of course, this discussion about the consequences of religious belief has no relevance to the question of whether this or that religion is actually true, or whether this or that deity actually exists.

[edhopper]

76. Good points

[DangerousUrNot]

2. Fellow atheist here

And some think atheism is a belief system in itself. Were you conserving with somone who think atheists don’t believe in anything?

[MineralMan]

3. Yeah. Someone claimed that in another thread.

I thought it warranted a new thread.

[Lordquinton]

23. And they wonder why they get called out all the time

Can't have it both ways.

[Lordquinton]

6. Atheism / nihilism

And nihilism =/= pessimism. There is a philosophy of optimistic nihilism, it looks at the universe and sees it at face value and finds the freedom in it. No imaginary judge with arcane rules threatening to punish you for eternity, just a small time here to experience the wonder and then you are returned to the stars from when we you came.

[MineralMan]

8. That's one way to look at it.

I tend to see everything as experiential. It exists, but my experience of it might be considerably different that someone else's.

If I am to take people who are young-earth creationists in any way seriously, I have to look at it that way. I've met a couple of such people, and they do seem to actually believe what they are saying. I find that to be extraordinary, but perhaps the universe they live in is somewhat different from the one I experience.

It's all very interesting, which is the fun in it all, of course.

[Lordquinton]

33. Everything is from our own perspective

when it comes to beliefs at least. Colors are generally agreed upon, and with technology we can pretty much verify it. But most of science works whether you believe it or not. Time dilation we know is a real phenomenon because we have to take it into account or our satellites will crash. We can prove the earth is round with a couple simple experiments, in fact ancient cultures knew it was round and accurately predicted the full size of the globe based on them.

Having stated the above, we all live in the same universe, that we all experience it the same way is clearly not the case. Just thinking back to even a year ago and how different my outlook was can attest as much. We are products of what we learn and what we are told, and what we are told as kids holds great sway our entire lives.

I like to think back on the concept of hitting reset on civilization, that we would cone ot the exact same scientific conclusions, but never would christianity emerge again.

[Angry Dragon]

15. and agnostics fall in-between

[marylandblue]

16. We are sort of like independent voters

[trotsky]

32. No, they don't.

[Pope George Ringo II]

17. And yet so many theists struggle with it

It's one thing for those who've just never really been exposed to it, but the ones who have and still can't grasp it? It says quite a bit about how shallowly they've pondered the issues that they can't even correctly define the alternatives.

[MineralMan]

34. Well, I posted my definition. And like clockwork,

the thread got hijacked into an argument about deities. How bizarre.

Apparently, it is impossible for some to believe that there are people who simply don't believe in any sort of supernatural stuff. Personally, I find it impossible to believe that they can't believe a simple statement, and assume that I'm unable to think.

Oh, well.

[Permanut]

52. Okay, ow do you explain the tides, then?

They come in and go out regularly, without fail. How do you explain that without divine intervention, Mr. Smartypants MineralMan?

Snark aside, I'm an evidence centered person, and I find no evidence for most of the claims in the Bible. I do belong to a Lutheran church, however, as it gives me an opportunity to do community service - feeding the guys at the shelter, for example.

[MineralMan]

65. Lots of people are church members for similar reasons.

Same reason I donate regularly to the Union Gospel Mission here. The do the best job with homeless people in the area.