Are there any cultures without religion?

[guillaumeb]

Last edited Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:53 PM - Edit history (1)

From the piece:

No, not if we properly define “religion.”
Until very recently in Western history, “religion” was not a separate “thing” apart from a culture’s entire way of life....

Religion does not necessarily involve belief in spiritual beings or gods, but does universally involve the answers a culture develops to the “ultimate questions:” — Why are we here? What is our purpose? Who made us, and why? And, what is the right thing to do?

To read more:

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-cultures-without-religion

Edited at 1:52pm on 7 Dec to add: so far 2 examples have been provided of societies with no apparent religion.

[yallerdawg]

1. There is a hole in each of us we are compelled to fill.

Can we shovel whatever in it, and never ask "Why a hole?" to begin with?

[guillaumeb]

4. A spiritual hole? A void?

There is a current post concerning one tiny hunter gatherer society with no formalized religion. I understand that some people would like to see this as a very important thing, but one tiny exception, even if true, does not invalidate that 300,000 years of human history points to religion as being always present.

[Mariana]

26. Gil, you always seem to think it is very important

when some miniscule percentage of the religious leaders in some place do a good thing, while the overwhelming majority are encouraging or even perpetrating evil. Just about every one of your "good news" posts is about some tiny exception.

[marylandblue]

34. I don't think you really understand anthropology

You may think you do, but it really sounds like you don't. Without anthropology, there is no evidence whatsoever that we have had 300,000 years of human religion. Either you accept the methods of anthropology or you don't. The anthropology of hunter-gatherers is based on the very few remaining examples that still exist.

[guillaumeb]

43. I understand that some people really, really, NEED to believe

that religion has not been a part of humanity since sentience arose.

It validates what they believe to be true. And I understand how this tiny exception is seized on by those people to show that what they believe is somehow scientifically provable.

I really do understand this quest, this desire, for validation.

[True Dough]

5. Speak for your own "hole" ;)

I don't have any such thing yearning to be filled.

[yallerdawg]

21. Born a complete person needing nothing.

Do you know how rare that is?

[marylandblue]

24. I think that void is called an "empty stomach"

And yes, we are all born with one of those.

[True Dough]

97. Thanks

for inspiring an OP!

[Progressive dog]

95. Neither do I nt

[dchill]

103. I fill mine with classic movies, classic rock and beer.

Works like a charm!

[True Dough]

2. I don't think so

and I doubt there will be any cultures devoid of religion in the future. That said, the shift away from religion is real:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

[guillaumeb]

7. This is from the National Geographic.

One non-theist has told me that the publication is now owned by Rupert Murdoch, presumably to show that it cannot be trusted.

But many who identify as non-religious also identify as spiritual. Showing that perhaps organized religion is not as favored but religious feeling and belief is still strong.

[True Dough]

12. Okay, so you're eager to dismiss a source that contradicts your bias

So then try this one:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/03/454063182/poll-finds-americans-especially-millennials-moving-away-from-religion

Or this one:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/08/24/why-americas-nones-left-religion-behind/

[guillaumeb]

13. No, simply pointing out hwo some here debate.

And simply not being a member of an organized religion does not make one non-religious or non-spiritual.

[True Dough]

15. Why bother to even start a thread?

Or better yet, why should anyone waste their time debating you? No matter what others contend, or factually present, you can (and likely will) refute it with your mantra: "And simply not being a member of an organized religion does not make one non-religious or non-spiritual."

There's no way to disprove that, so you'll wrap yourself in it forevermore.

See ya, Guillaume, but you don't see me!

[guillaumeb]

17. If you prefer the meme that "religion is dying out",

I accept that. I prefer more nuance.

What you present, or claim, as factual has no probative value. It is a survey, a snapshot in time and it is proper to challenge any assumptions that another might draw.

[Mariana]

27. Good grief, Gil, no one has said religion is dying out.

Give it a rest with the lies. Do to others as you would have them do to you, just for a change of pace.

[guillaumeb]

36. No one has used those exact words.

Reread what I wrote and focus on the word nuance.

[yallerdawg]

22. From Pew:

The Pew Research Center’s new demographic projections– the first formal forecasts using data on age, fertility, mortality, migration and religious switching for the world’s eight major religious groups – finds that the religious profile of the world is rapidly changing. By 2050, the number of Muslims around the world will nearly equal the number of Christians. With the exception of Buddhists, all of the world’s major religious groups are poised for at least some growth in the coming decades. Meanwhile, the share of those who do not identify with a religious group will decline.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/23/live-event-the-future-of-world-religions/

[True Dough]

55. I won't deny information from PEW

or their projections either. That particular analysis is on a global level. I feel that many citizens of Third-World countries are more likely to turn to religion out of desperation. That doesn't account for all Third-World residents subscribing to religion, by any stretch, but if you have literally nothing in your life but extreme poverty, perhaps malnourishment, perhaps family dying of disease, perhaps war being waged all around you, then when someone comes to you and says "here's the way to salvation," you're much more likely to jump at it, IMO.

Also from PEW, and more in line with the point I was making, are stats from America showing that religion is, in some respects, falling out of favor:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/03/5-key-findings-about-religiosity-in-the-u-s-and-how-its-changing/

[yallerdawg]

63. We've also previously discussed...

that the people who are identifying as unaffiliated or "none" are increasingly filling that void with the old "New Age" beliefs, they are not just going through life faithless in "something."

[marylandblue]

25. When you respond to one poster, why do you bring up words of other atheists

It's completely irrelevant that someone else didn't like national geographic and not fair to the poster you are responding to.

[Mariana]

28. We're all the same and interchangable.

We're not really individual human beings at all, you know. We're a homogeneous mass, with one common mind, like the Borg. If one atheist says a thing, then all atheists must agree.

[Lordquinton]

33. meanwhile each and every believer

has their own thoughts and values on each and every subject and to assume any of them is a great offence and insult to all believers everywhere.

[trotsky]

86. A "choir," you know.

He plucks things out of context, rephrases them, starts a new thread, and tries again. Classic Gil.

[guillaumeb]

35. Simply to point out the inconsistencies in the reponses.

And the double standard that is applied.

[msongs]

3. they were likely all killed off by one of the dominant religions nt

[True Dough]

6. Bahahaha!!!

This could be true!

[guillaumeb]

9. Or a giant meteor. eom

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

56. And of course, that meteor struck

because they didn't pray it away.

[guillaumeb]

57. It formed the Grand Canyon.

Or hit Atlantis.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

64. LOL!

[MineralMan]

11. Bingo!

[trotsky]

40. Could be, and we'd have no way of knowing.

Argumentum ad populum is gilly's favorite fallacy though, so he keeps coming back to it.

[Angry Dragon]

8. so we could get rid of all the gods and man would be okay??

[guillaumeb]

10. If we got rid of all the humans God would be okay? eom

[Angry Dragon]

14. then the gods would have no one to bow down to them

also a poor reply from you

[guillaumeb]

16. A mirror image of yours.

I agree.

[Angry Dragon]

18. no gilly.............I said gods you said humans

[guillaumeb]

19. A near mirror image.

The same format, slightly reworked.

[trotsky]

41. If we got rid of all humans, no. God would be gone too. n/t

[guillaumeb]

45. Certain are you?

It is good to be certain of things.

[trotsky]

62. Do you have any proof your god existed before humans did?

Didn't think so.

[guillaumeb]

66. Which proves nothing. eom

[trotsky]

68. Didn't claim it did.

But it's definitely something worth considering, don't you think?

[guillaumeb]

69. No, I do not, but if you do, I understand. eom

[trotsky]

70. wrong location n/t

[trotsky]

71. Do you think it's *possible* that your god doesn't exist?

Or are you certain it does?

[guillaumeb]

74. I have faith. Faith implies belief in the absence of proof.

Do you understand that?

[trotsky]

76. So is it possible your god doesn't exist? n/t

[guillaumeb]

77. Is it possible that the Creator exists?

Neither is answerable.

[trotsky]

81. I will readily admit it's possible a creator exists.

It's possible there is a teacup in orbit around the sun somewhere in the asteroid belt, too.

So it is possible your creator doesn't exist? You have faith it does, but is it possible it doesn't?

[marylandblue]

93. Being that you have faith, you've already answered that.

[marylandblue]

20. That's not the definition of religion, it's the definition of teleology and ethics

Which may or may not be part of someone's religion.

The most common definition of religion used by anthropologists is
(1) a system of symbols which acts to
(2) establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men [and women] by
(3) formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and
(4) clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that
(5) the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic.

No requirements for purpose or ethics, though a lot of religions do have those.

[guillaumeb]

46. Which religions do not have purpose and/or ethics? eom

[marylandblue]

47. Buddhism, animism

[guillaumeb]

48. Are you certain?

An interesting claim.

Here is a different perspective:

Buddhist ethics are traditionally based on what Buddhists view as the enlightened perspective of the Buddha, or other enlightened beings such as Bodhisattvas. The Indian term for ethics or morality used in Buddhism is Śīla (Sanskrit: शील or sīla (Pāli). Śīla in Buddhism is one of three sections of the Noble Eightfold Path, and is a code of conduct that embraces a commitment to harmony and self-restraint with the principal motivation being non-violence, or freedom from causing harm. It has been variously described as virtue,[1] right conduct,[2] morality,[3] moral discipline[4] and precept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_ethics

[marylandblue]

49. Buddhism has no teleology, animism sometimes has no ethics

[guillaumeb]

50. What of Buddhism?

Do you accept this source?

[trotsky]

73. It's just one source.

There is no definitive version of Buddhism, just as there is no definitive version of Christianity. You've admitted this. No one can define a religion for anyone else, only for themselves. You seem to be arguing with yourself here.

[guillaumeb]

75. You are learning.

As are we all. But if a person makes a definitive statement, and evidence contradicts...........

[trotsky]

80. Your "evidence" is simply one definition.

No definition can ever be authoritative, because everyone gets to define their own religion. According to you.

[Progressive dog]

96. Purpose

'1.
the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
"the purpose of the meeting is to appoint a trustee"
synonyms: motive, motivation, grounds, cause, occasion, reason, point, basis, justification'

Ethics
moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.
"medical ethics also enter into the question"
synonyms: moral code, morals, morality, values, rights and wrongs, principles, ideals, standards (of behavior), value system, virtues, dictates of conscience
"your so-called newspaper is clearly not burdened by a sense of ethics"

Religion
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
sect, church, cult, denomination
"the freedom to practice their own religion"
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

Religion does not require ethics, but it probably does have a purpose.

[BigmanPigman]

23. NO, and that is the problem.

Religions have existed with all cultures for thousands of years and that is why humans are at fault for killing each other, all living things and the planet. Humans chose religion and that has been the downfall of the human race (good, they get what they sow) but the plants and animals do NOT deserve to suffer and die because humans are so stupid.

[Mariana]

30. Most humans don't really choose religion.

They're heavily indoctrinated while they are young and impressionable, by adults they trust.

Dad says don't touch the stove or you'll burn your hand, and he's right. Mom says don't touch that snake or it will bite you, and she's right. Over and over and over again, they're right about what they tell you. They love you, they're looking out for you, and they protect you. So when they take you to church every week and tell you the things you hear there are true, what are you going to believe?

[BigmanPigman]

31. When I was 9 I was given a choice...

and I chose NO CCD, NO getting up early on weekends, NO making up sins I committed so I would have something to tell and please the man in the booth. My family is a group of happy Atheists and Dems for 3 generations and we discuss politics and lack of religion at special dinners. Happy Festivus!

[Mariana]

32. Few 9 year olds are given such a choice.

Happy Festivus to you, too!

[trotsky]

42. OP doesn't understand this.

I've tried to explain but the concept of forced indoctrination of children doesn't really register with him.

[MaryMagdaline]

29. Is there a culture without a Creation story?

[guillaumeb]

39. An excellent topic for a post.

I suggest that you consider it.

[trotsky]

37. LOL 'not if we properly define religion.'

Yeah it's a lot easier to make your claim when you make up your own definitions. You have a lot of experience with that, gilly.

[trotsky]

38. Here's a question:

If every human who ever lived had followed a specific religion and believed in a specific god, would that mean the god exists?

[guillaumeb]

44. It is a question.

It does end with a question mark.

[trotsky]

61. Can you answer it?

Because I can.

[guillaumeb]

65. Neither of us can answer it. eom

[trotsky]

67. Not true.

I can.

[Act_of_Reparation]

72. If every human who ever lived believed in vampires, would that mean vampires exist?

Guess we'll never know!

[TlalocW]

51. The Pirahas

No religion, no creation myth, etc.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2008/11/08/how-an-amazonian-tribe-turned-a-missionary-into-an-atheist/

TlalocW

[guillaumeb]

53. So this apparently has occurred in small groups.

Proving that there are exceptions to everything.

Thanks for the interesting link.

[DetlefK]

52. Socialism and Communism.

In socialist and communist countries religion is regarded as something bad and old-fashioned. In such societies, religion is something private and personal, something you practice in families and small communities. There is no religion in public.

[guillaumeb]

54. A different question entirely.

Your answer concerns an officially atheist state suppressing all public expression of religion.

But religious practice has rebounded in Russia and China. The new Marxist man apparently reverted when the heavy pressure was removed.

[Progressive dog]

102. Until recently most nations

had official religions and nonbelievers felt the wrath of those of faith.

[guillaumeb]

105. True. And that intolerance excuses neither side. eom

[Act_of_Reparation]

58. "If we properly define 'religion'"

And by "properly" we mean, "in such a broad way that few, specialists or otherwise, would recognize it but since it is necessary to make the point we want to make it's no big deal hooray for us aren't we VERY SERIOUS PEOPLE give us money kthxbai".

[guillaumeb]

59. So you disagree with the definition?

Are you the definer?

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. Yes.

I'm the definer.

[saidsimplesimon]

78. Let me share a quote

I asked a deceased friend, with a dual doctorate from UofM, in genetics and psychology, this question. He gave me the Catholic response. "If there were no God, man would invent one." Voltaire

[guillaumeb]

82. Voltaire was merely speaking his own opinion.

But it is important to remember that when he said:

Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer, he was actually speaking of the necessity of religion for human society. It was not an affirmation of atheism, it was a response to contemporary atheists who wished to attack religion as a tool of the royals.

[Lithos]

79. Your definition suffers a logical fallacy

Namely, it is too broad and assumes what it wants to prove.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition

For instance, your definition would make Science a religion given that Science chases the question of How were we made and what are the mechanisms that helped create us.

[guillaumeb]

85. Science deals with the physical aspects of life.

It does not ask questions about why, simply how.

Religion deals with the spiritual aspects of life, and generally how to live a good life.

A minor point, but the definition is the author's definition.

[Lithos]

87. Too vague

What the author defined as religion is really what everyone else calls culture. Rather circular to set a definition that Religion is culture and because there is culture, there is religion.

Religion is a ritualized formalization of a particular part of a belief system. Not all religions require a Creation Myth. Buddhism for one says that it is irrelevant (my words) to how the Universe really operates and contemplation of which is a distraction. What is typically offered as the Buddhist Creation myth is really nothing more than a moral satire.

Also, having a religion itself has zero to do with "how to live a good life". How to live the "Good Life" is based on Metaphysics, aka Philosophy.

And last: Science concerns itself with a posterior knowledge - things you can deduce. That is one of the issues between Religion as much of what it describes as concrete do not follow deductively. Some Christian religious traditions says the Bible is inerrant and the word of God. Science says that is not

L-

[guillaumeb]

88. Religion seems to have been a part of human society for 300,000 years.

Religion can take many forms, but like culture, and language, it is a part of the social fabric.

[Lithos]

89. We've been burying people for 300,000 years

Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

That does not make a religion.

Elephants, magpies and chimpanzees conduct rites for their dead and likely have been doing so for an equally long period of time. That does not mean they have religion.

The earliest rites which carry external symbolism which seem to have started around 20,000 to 50,000 BCE and have been called a form of fetishism and/or animism. The few artifacts also most likely represent man's attempt to control their environment than trying to explain the "why". By the author's definition, this does not really qualify as religion.

L-

[marylandblue]

90. You accept this assertion that is based on anthropology

But reject the methods and definitions anthropologists used to arrive at this conclusion.

[Voltaire2]

91. Oh there it is again.

Nope. No evidence of actual religious practices- for example worship of gods- is more than around 11,000 years old, and that one site is not indisputably religious.

You are once again equivocating over the definition of religion, using different definitions as needed in order to prove whatever point you are arguing.

[marylandblue]

92. The Cro-magnon cave paintings are believed to be for religious rituals

But there too, it's not indisputable. We don't actually know what they were for. And it depends how you define religious too.

[Voltaire2]

99. There is speculation, not evidence.

We know just about nothing about Paleolithic culture. Even then that gets us back to about 40000 years ago.

[stonecutter357]

83. happy holidays .

[guillaumeb]

84. Happy holidays to you and yours. eom

[Progressive dog]

94. Religion and culture are not the same

I choose to define religion and other words as the dictionary does. Part of my culture requires words to have known meanings.

[guillaumeb]

98. Religion is a part of culture.

Just as language is a part of culture.

[Progressive dog]

100. religion(s) are parts of many cultures

Modern societies allow many religions.

[vlyons]

101. Contrary to what many Westerners think, Buddhism is not a religion.

Buddhism is a non-theistic practice based on meditation to examine the mind, how it works when neurotic, and when sane. Buddha never answered questions about if there was a god, and what his/her nature might be. Instead he taught that we should practice ahimsa (do no harm) and discover the Buddha nature that we already possess, but which is obscured by our mental confusions about how things really exist, and by our disburbing (negative) emotions. By this practice, we could achieve liberation from samsara (suffering).

[guillaumeb]

104. Some Christians might interpret that "Buddha nature"

as a rough equivalent of the Creator's influence in all of us. The sentience that is the "created in the image and likeness" referred to in Genesis 1:27, where it is said "So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them."

[vlyons]

106. Those Christians haven't understood Buddhist dharma

There is no creator or savior in Buddhism. No one can save you except you yourself. Buddha did not address how the universe came into existence. There are some questions that cannot be answered with words. There are some experiences that cannot be described; they must be experienced. However there are many teachings of Jesus about compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, etc that intersect with the Mahayana teachings of Buddha. But such teachings are about how we behave toward others and about our mental attitudes that we hold toward others. They have nothing to do with a creator god.

[guillaumeb]

107. I believe that I understand your point. eom