Where have you looked for God, and what were you looking for?

[guillaumeb]

Often one can read a response from an atheist about looking for a deity and not finding any deity, or not finding any evidence of a deity. As if this statement somehow has any probative value in a discussion concerning the existence or non-existence of a deity.

But if you are a non-theist, or an agnostic, have you looked for God?

If you have, was it an intellectual search?

Was it a physical search?

If one were to do a physical search, where would one look?

If one were to do a physical search, what would one look for?

Would one look for a humanoid shaped being, continuing a long human tradition of anthropomorphizing deities?

Would one look for a sentient cloud of energy inhabiting an immense region of space?

[saidsimplesimon]

1. Look within

the mind, the answers are all logical and fact based. Pay attention to some ancient truths and history. imo

[guillaumeb]

2. Congratulations on your 2,222nd post.

Yes, I agree that the search is an inner search for meaning. A search for divine DNA or other such evidence is limited by our own human conception of what is discoverable by humans.

[saidsimplesimon]

3. thank you,

If there is anything "divine" about humans it is our much maligned power of mind over matter. imo

[Bretton Garcia]

61. But a human looking within,.will of course find human things

[AtheistCrusader]

181. Sometimes to everyone's peril.

[trotsky]

4. Why don't you tell us what to look for?

You said my problem was that I had a bad teacher.

Be a good teacher. Tell me.

[guillaumeb]

6. What can I tell you?

Can I teach you to have faith?

[trotsky]

19. You said I had a bad teacher, and that's why I'm an atheist.

If I hear you correctly, that's the only possible way someone could hear the message of your religion and still reject it. They must have had a bad teacher - there's no other conceivable reason, right?

So teach me.

[guillaumeb]

20. Did I say you had a bad teacher, or was it a possibility?

And no, you misheard. There are many paths to a good life.

[trotsky]

21. I misheard nothing.

Your words: "I did not blame you at all. I blamed the teacher."

[guillaumeb]

22. Yes, you actaully did.

Thank you for the link, because this was my initial reply:

Perhaps you had the wrong teacher.

Perhaps not. Stony ground is less hospitable to the mustard seed, agreed?

Perhaps indicates that it is not a declarative statement. Perhaps indicates other possibilities.

[trotsky]

23. No, I actually did not. That was an earlier post.

You clarified later:

I blamed the teacher.

If you still meant "perhaps" you should have said "I said perhaps the teacher was to blame." But you didn't. You were specific.

[guillaumeb]

24. No, you still misread.

As the first response clearly shows.

[trotsky]

25. That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.

I will let others judge for themselves.

[guillaumeb]

26. I agree. Others will judge. eom

[trotsky]

49. Great! So now that's settled,

are you going to teach me to have faith? Tell me what I've done wrong, or how I'm defective, that I don't believe in your religion?

Let's begin.

[trotsky]

160. So, you gonna find where my faults are or not?

Why am I unable to accept the message of your religion?

Your OP implies people looked in the wrong place, or looked for the wrong thing.

Teach me what I'm supposed to look for.

Let's go.

[Act_of_Reparation]

162. And WHY are we supposed to be looking for it?

What the hell is it hiding from?

[guillaumeb]

163. I said nothing of the kind.

I asked what exactly people were looking for, and asked where they looked.

Do you see atheism as a fault, or a lack?

[trotsky]

165. I see atheism as neither.

But you see it as both, apparently.

Why?

[guillaumeb]

167. No, I do not. That is your misperception. eom

[trotsky]

168. My "misperception" of what you expressly stated in your OP?

Namely, that atheists must have been looking for the wrong thing, in the wrong place, in the wrong way? (Implying that they are at fault AND lacking something that needs to be looked for!)

You make this too damn easy, g. Way too easy.

[guillaumeb]

169. Again, you misperceive.

But if it serves your narrative, I understand.

[trotsky]

170. So instead of falling back to your sorry, lame-ass "your narrative" bullshit, why don't you clarify?

Why did you ask the questions in your OP?

Are atheists lacking god? Yes or no.

Are they not looking properly? Yes or no.

I realize you won't answer these questions, because you'd rather continue your snide remarks and insults than engage in real discussion which shows you to be wrong.

But how awesome it would be if you could finally, once and for all, put me in my place. Want to try?

[guillaumeb]

171. I asked the questions to illustrate my argument. An argument I have made many times here.

It is up to you to answer them if you wish. Or recognize the validity of the questions.

[trotsky]

172. Your questions all beg the most important question:

is there really a god to find - ANYWHERE?

You haven't demonstrated that yet. No one has. Numerous people have asked you to merely DEFINE your god, and you have refused every request. Your argument fails.

[guillaumeb]

173. Faith is what is required.

I cannot prove the existence of the Creator, and you cannot disprove the existence of a Creator.

[trotsky]

179. I don't have to disprove it.

I haven't asserted anything. Atheists are simply saying that believers haven't presented enough evidence for us to accept their claims.

I understand this is very difficult for you to accept, that you NEED to have atheists be in the same pickle as you when it comes to a total lack of evidence to support your beliefs, but it just ain't so.

Go ahead and repeat your assertion, as I'm sure you will. Won't make it true no matter how many times you try though.

[AtheistCrusader]

218. No, but we can prove whether the universe requires a creator, or whether it bears the toolmarks of

having been created. If the universe can be shown to not require a creator, bears no evidence of having been created, AND we cannot see/identify/verify in any way your claims of a creator, then we can safely conclude you're wrong.

So far the universe does not appear to need a creator, and does not bear any obvious tool-marks of creation, but we do still have work to do.

For now.

[guillaumeb]

224. Your statement is totally unprovable.

It is also called a personal opinion.

[AtheistCrusader]

225. Be specific. Which part?

[guillaumeb]

226. All of it. It is an opinion. eom

[AtheistCrusader]

230. Do you just not read qualifying statements or what?

If the universe could not come about by non-supernatural means, we very well could discover and possibly even replicate the process.

We might not be able to directly view a supernatural creator, but we CAN discover whether one is required to explain the universe by simply examining the universe. (Which we are doing right now.)

So far, signs point to 'none required', but there is more work to do. That is not opinion.

[guillaumeb]

231. As to opinion, this is one of yours:

We might not be able to directly view a supernatural creator, but we CAN discover whether one is required to explain the universe by simply examining the universe. (Which we are doing right now.)

[AtheistCrusader]

232. That's not an opinion.

If the universe bears evidence of creation, then we can infer a creator even if we cannot directly perceive it for whatever reason.

If the universe bears no evidence of having been created, and no creator is required, all we have left is the opinion of people like you that there is a creator, which we can then dismiss as insufficient evidence.

[AtheistCrusader]

182. That was a shitty thing to say by the way.

"Stony ground is less hospitable to the mustard seed, agreed?"


The fuck, precisely, did you mean in analogizing him as 'stony ground'? I'm familiar with the 'faith the size of a mustard seed' nonsense. Analogizing it to faith, and then suggesting he is 'stony ground' suggests substandard/infertile land.

I can never tell whether you're doing that on purpose or not.

[MineralMan]

207. You're not making a lot of sense, you know.

Please try again.

[AtheistCrusader]

209. Post count and content suggest that person is not here to make sense or contribute meaningfully.

[trotsky]

212. FancyMonkeyBrain believes he knows all.

But FancyMonkeyBrain's IP address is what actually *reveals* all.

[MineralMan]

214. No doubt.

[Bretton Garcia]

62. Religious leaders in the Bible try to teach faith constantly

[guillaumeb]

67. I am old, but not old enough to be in the Bible. eom

[trotsky]

208. Um, wat? n/t

[marble falls]

211. Wats your point, monkey brain? Anything to contribute to the conversation?

[marble falls]

216. So. Where have you looked for "god", and what were you looking for, monkeybrain?

[marble falls]

219. Pshaw. You have nothing to add.

[marble falls]

221. Looks more like a reading comprehension problem to me. What "sounds" are you experiencing?

[marble falls]

223. Why are you so hostile and rude?

Why do you have trouble understanding?

Most importantly, why can you not add to the conversation?

Where have you looked for "god" and what were you looking for? You know, join in with the conversation.

[MineralMan]

5. No need to look for one. Others put their deities up for consideration

constantly. All you have to do is look to see if there's any evidence of the deities they are selling.

So far, no such evidence has been presented. From that I can draw only one conclusion.

[guillaumeb]

7. I can draw many conclusions.

1) You are not looking in the correct place.

2) You are looking incorrectly.

3) You do not realize what it is that you are looking for.

4) You are looking for what cannot be found using science.

5) You found and did not realize.

[MineralMan]

8. You can draw anything you like, Guillaume.

However, you do not know me, nor anything much about me. So, draw away...

[guillaumeb]

10. Simply trying to help out.

Keep searching.

[MineralMan]

14. No, you're not, Guillaume.

You're baiting. I won't bite.

I once left this group for a very long time over similar baiting. I came back, only to find it again. Ugh!

[guillaumeb]

15. You know very little about me, other than my first name.

As to baiting, and such tactics, I see them practiced constantly here, mainly by described atheists. But I do not assume that such tactics are common to atheists in general.

And I was sincere in suggesting that you keep searching. I feel that people find what they truly seek.

[MineralMan]

16. No, you were not being sincere. You were trying to game me.

I don't play. I don't bait. I discuss. If you want to discuss something with me, you'll have to lay off the crap. I don't care.

[guillaumeb]

17. I read your other post. And I understand the anger.

I recommend a walk. It generally works for me.

[MineralMan]

18. Fuck that, OK?

I'm not going to take a walk. I'm pissed off, and plan to stay that way for a while. I won't play with you any longer. That's done.

[marylandblue]

45. Actually, I think he is baiting me

Because the OP is identical to post he made responding to me in another thread. But I don't care if he baits me or not. I'll just respond the way I want, or not at all.

[guillaumeb]

78. You are incorrect.

Whatever works for you obviously works, for you.

[marylandblue]

83. ok, thanks.

[Lordquinton]

74. Ah, the angry atheist meme

Haven't seen that for a while.

How absolutely vile of you to use it.

[guillaumeb]

189. Ridiculous. We all get angry. eom

[Lordquinton]

194. You found it!

While we all get angry, it is a very common tactic of the privilegd to call a person raising issues against them angry. It is very common against atheists where they will say something about religion hurting people, or their past experiences, and they will get the response you gave "you seem angry." It is common, demeaning and insulting. Far more insidious and personal than any billboard you may find.

[guillaumeb]

196. And what of all of the angry responses from non-theists here?

Or is it all justified anger? And if the angry responses convince posters to avoid this forum, what is accomplished?

[Lordquinton]

197. I literally just explained it to you

Can lead a horse to water...

[guillaumeb]

198. And what of my last question? eom

[Lordquinton]

229. What question?

The one in that comment I replied to was moot.

[AtheistCrusader]

184. Here you are again, suggesting the problem is with the other person in the conversation.

[guillaumeb]

190. Here YOU go again, insisting that you know my motivation.

But you have the right to your opinions, as long as you recognize that they prove nothing.

[AtheistCrusader]

201. I didn't say a word about your MOTIVE.

Reading. It's FUNdamental.

[WhiteTara]

119. Nothing to find

and no need to search.

[guillaumeb]

187. A conclusion based solely on your own thoughts. I understand. eom

[WhiteTara]

191. If God is everything

then God can not be outside anything. Therefore, you are God. There is nothing to seek and nothing to find. You are there.

The line in the bible...God is in his/her holy temple. Let all the earth keep silence. Isn't that an invitation to meditate?

[guillaumeb]

192. Jesus suggested praying in secret,

but He also prayed in the Temple.

If one believes in a Creator, then yes, all of creation reflects the Creator's impulse. But free will and sentience mean that we have the ability to freely act. And those actions reflect only upon us because of that free will.

[AtheistCrusader]

183. Perhaps you can help me find the invisible dragon my garage.

I'm sure it's there.

[guillaumeb]

188. You have decided for yourself, based on your won feelings.

As long as you understand that logic does not enter into the equation.

[marylandblue]

193. Here you go again

Telling someone about their motivations just before complaining about someone telling you about your motivations, see post 190.

[guillaumeb]

195. Agreed. I should have qualified my post.

[AtheistCrusader]

200. False. I have not decided at all.

I was never programmed with faith, therefore I have none. I am open to the possibility of supernatural whatevers existing, but I do not have any faith, and require evidence to convince me.

It remains clear you don't understand atheists at all.

[Cartoonist]

9. #4

4) You are looking for what cannot be found using science.

If God exists, he can be found using science. In fact, all he has to do is reveal himself and we can use our eyes. If he can not reveal himself, then his omnipotence is overrated

[guillaumeb]

12. Assume for the argument that God exists.

What does God look like? A corollary is what makes anyone assume that God can be seen?

How does God communicate?

Where is God at?

[Cartoonist]

33. If God is omnipotent

Then he can choose whatever guise he wants. And we'll know it. Unless God is a total idiot and appears as George Burns, or someone who looks just like him.

Actually your questions make me wonder who you think God is. He can't communicate? Really?

[guillaumeb]

38. You claimed that I said God cannot communicate, when I actually said:

What does God look like? A corollary is what makes anyone assume that God can be seen?

How does God communicate?

Where is God at?

How does the question "How does God communicate?" become, in your misframing: "He can't communicate?"

[Cartoonist]

43. Why ask the question then?

[guillaumeb]

66. Why did you misframe it?

Did you read it incorrectly, or is there another reason?

[Cartoonist]

69. There is another reason

How does God communicate?

When you get down to it, that's rather a stupid question. Here's another one: "Where does an 800-pound gorilla sit?" you can look up the answer online.

[guillaumeb]

70. Perhaps you should have asked why I wrote what I did, rather than misframe what

I wrote.

But my question is not as obvious or stupid as you stated. Think about it.

[Cartoonist]

84. Think about omnipotence

You think God can't figure out a way to communicate? Then why ask how? Please explain the question because it makes no sense.

[guillaumeb]

85. There are many ways to communicate.

Not all are verbal. Not all are obvious.

[Cartoonist]

86. And which one can't God do?

Keep digging

[guillaumeb]

88. Do you still misunderstand what I actually said?

Respond to what I said, not what you claim that I said. Reread what I actually said if necessary. You are the only one insisting that I said God cannot communicate.

[Cartoonist]

114. You implied it by asking the question

First, define god.
Second, ask how god communicates.

Surely, your god must be a powerful being. How can you even ask how he could communicate? What, he can't come up with something? Please interpret your own question. This should be good. I can hardly wait for you to throw your god under the bus because he can't, won't, or just lacks the intelligence or ability to speak. What other possible answers to your question is there?

[guillaumeb]

139. I did not imply any such thing.

Again, you are responding to what you wish my answer to be. So you are debating yourself. Good luck and I trust that you will win.

[AtheistCrusader]

185. Which god?

[Bretton Garcia]

63. If there are so many easy ways to miss God?

Then maybe he's not there. Since there is so little evidence.

In most of the Bible, by the way, God is visible, and walks around talking. So if that's not there today, but you still believe, then already you've abandoned most or the bible's God.

And who knows what you are folloeing after that. Probably a "false spirit."

[Mariana]

65. He really wasn't visible in most of the book.

Remember how God told Moses it would kill him (Moses, not God) if Moses were to look upon his face? But Moses really really really wanted to see God in the flesh, so to speak, so God showed Moses his backside, and Moses was satisfied with that.

I believe that's the last time in the Bible that anyone actually saw God with their eyes.

[Bretton Garcia]

87. That's mostly right.

[Lordquinton]

73. There's an option you aren't including

6) you found a false positive and stopped.

[WestMichRad]

11. I looked in the cookie jar but only found crumbs

I think she stole my cookies!

[guillaumeb]

13. Are there other jars in the kitchen?

What type of cookies?

[WestMichRad]

31. Chocolate chip oatmeal!

My favorite! Have to conclude she is truly evil.

[guillaumeb]

32. Laughter on this end. eom

[zipplewrath]

27. Science reveals God

I heard some scientist suggest this once. That the study of science was the study OF God, in the sense that God is everything and to understand God, you have to understand "everything" in some sense. Really, I'm paraphrasing poorly in that he suggested that in the study of science, one began to understand the enormity of God.

[guillaumeb]

28. I Googled the term, and this was the first citation:

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/galleries/6-ways-science-reveals-gods-truth.aspx

An interesting article, and one I might use as the basis for an article here.

Thank you for the quote.

[Irish_Dem]

52. I agree with this statement.

Science and spirituality are not two separate entities.
They are one and the same.

[zipplewrath]

59. Potentially

It has been suggested that they are opposite sides of the same coin.
If nothing else it is a form of "intellectual cross training". You can study almost anything deeply, and it will give you a deeper appreciation for many things.
Goodness knows the Jesuits thought that the study of nature WAS the study of God.

[Irish_Dem]

60. I guess I am more in line with the Jesuits then.

Science and God are one and the same.

[Locrian]

126. Fritjof Capra

http://www.fritjofcapra.net/

Tao of Physics
Systems View of Life

Very interesting synthesis of science and the infinite

[saidsimplesimon]

29. Here comes the broken record.

Read Voltaire, all your questions rely on facts and evidence, for some, "faith" requires a leap into the abyss.

[guillaumeb]

30. Faith requires belief in the unprovable.

And Voltaire saw faith and religion as a social glue.

[WestMichRad]

34. "...requires belief in the unprovable."

Sounds to me very much like a cousin of believing in your own set of facts.

No thanks, I'll continue to use science and love as my guides for life.

[guillaumeb]

39. If that suffices for you, fine. oem

[Locrian]

128. faith - Manly Palmer Hall

The term faith has been badly misunderstood. It is not he unquestioning acceptance of that which is not demonstrable nor is a blight upon natural curiosity. We are not less anxious to learn: in fact thoughtfulness finds a fuller justification. Faith is the conscious and voluntary acceptance of the wisdom, love, and security behind and within the process of creation.

It is the recognition of a universal integrity so complete an so inevitable that human doubts are intuitively dissolved. Truth is good, law is love, and life is god. Once the human conspicuousness has accepted these facts a sufficient faith is not only possible but also imminently available.

Used to read a lot of his stuff....

[Voltaire2]

36. Thanks!

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. By "God", do you mean a monotheistic deity that has some reason for the capital letter

and no indefinite article?

[guillaumeb]

40. I mean whatever one conceives of as a deity.

By whatever name, whatever gender, no gender, an anthropomorphic form or no form.

I personally mean the one who created, the Creator.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. This seems to beg the question, then

You're saying we need to conceive of a deity, and then look for that conception. That looks like one would leave oneself wide open to confirmation bias.

[guillaumeb]

42. Confirmation bias is everywhere.

How can anyone be certain that it is not present in nearly anything or everything that we hold to be true?

[marylandblue]

47. That's why science is such a good process to finding truth

Better than anything else humans have come up with, because, among other things, it accounts for confirmation bias. Not perfect, but we've learned more in the 400 years of using the scientific method, than in all the previous human history.put together.

[Irish_Dem]

53. The scientific method is indeed the gold standard, but it is subject

to confirmation bias and other investigative errors. As humans we can unconsciously project our own beliefs in any research project.

I was trained as a scientist in a large research university and saw for
myself the bias inherent in research, especially in the social sciences.
For example, certain topics cannot be tackled because they are not in
line with the zeitgeist.

[marylandblue]

55. Yes that's true, it's not perfect

But over time, the errors tend to correct themselves. I did university research in engineering. Engineering keeps you honest because your errors tend to cost millions of dollars or hurt people.

Using faith to guide beliefs is likely lead to errors because it practically glorifies confirmation bias when it says things like "when you have faith, you see God everywhere." Of course you do.

Also, the human brain is an excellent pattern recognition device, but it makes many false positives, it imagines patterns in random events. That's why we see constellations in random distributions of stars. Science counteracts this tendency too, but again faith glorifies it.

[Irish_Dem]

57. Research with human subjects is a different ballgame than the hard sciences.

Much more prone to errors I believe.

I read an article recently stating that humans are hard wired to believe in God.
If so, yes we are going to view our reality from that lens.

Faith and spirituality are such an individual things.
I was raised as a Catholic, rejected it as a young adult.
Mid life spent years investigating spiritual issues and came to my own
belief system. I did this because some things happened that had no rational basis
whatsoever, and I wanted to find out why. I felt there was so much more than
we know or understand about life.

[marylandblue]

135. I believe in spirituality, but I wouldn't call it a belief system

More like a set of feelings, practices and attitudes. I think when people turn spirituality into a belief system, they start losing their way, because then they fight over the ideas rather than just having the experience. Sort of like arguing which roller coaster is the best in the world, rather than just riding roller coasters.

[Irish_Dem]

137. Good point, when we turn spirituality into an organized thing, it gets used as a weapon.

And I do think it is a very individual experience.

[KPN]

174. Yes -- I too think and believe that

about belief systems. It's the structure, the human organization we apply to our spiritualism that undermines true spiritualism, true goodness. It does become an ideology in most instances, by most practitioners. -- To sum, organized religions become a source of evil as much as and sometimes more than good.

[Act_of_Reparation]

48. IF ONLY THERE WAS SOME WAY TO CONTROL FOR IT.

Oh, right.

[Irish_Dem]

104. It is not possible to eradicate bias in research, but yes the scientific method

is a strong attempt to do so.

The bias often starts right out of the gate, when university professors tell their
doctoral candidates which topics are acceptable and not acceptable. Young researchers learn
that they will not get funded to work on "unacceptable topics." Nor will they get their PhD.

[Act_of_Reparation]

134. I didn't say anything about eradicating bias.

I said controlling for it.

The bias often starts right out of the gate, when university professors tell their
doctoral candidates which topics are acceptable and not acceptable. Young researchers learn
that they will not get funded to work on "unacceptable topics." Nor will they get their PhD.

You obviously know a lot about academia.

[trotsky]

50. If only we had a method for acquiring knowledge...

that was constructed precisely to overcome confirmation bias. Hmm, what would such a method look like?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

[Mariana]

44. "Conceive of a deity"

In other words, "imagine a deity" or "make up a deity".

[Voltaire2]

37. I found it hiding in the garage.

It was right next to a rusty socket wrench I hadn’t seen in years. It was scared, miserable, filthy, cold and hungry. I fed little god some miso soup, washed it in the sink, cleaned it’s clothes, and packed god a pb&j for the road.

“Good luck god” I said as the cute little critter set out on the road.

[True Dough]

100. Did it come back to you?

You know what they say, "If it's truly love, it will come back to you."

[Voltaire2]

102. Road kill.

[marylandblue]

46. I would look for a being that has a measureable effect on the universe

Doesn't have to be physical. But it has to actually DO something. A verified miracle that can't be explaineded another way. Clear evidence of design, not, "well it kind of looks designed if you think about it a certain way, so you must be looking the wrong way." Proof that prayer heals the sick (other than the placebo effect) or can make my horse win the Triple Crown. Not a First Cause that relies on our lack of scientific knowledge about how the universe started or on our intuition that everything has a cause... therefore, God. Because modern physics shows that our intuitions about physics are actually wrong. Someone cold, dead and decomposing returning to tell us what he saw.

And certainly, not anything about faith needing no proof. That last one is the worst. Basically all it says is that you believe because you believe because you believe because... Which is to say it says nothing at all.

I believe in spirituality. Personal experience of mystical states, like Buddhist enlightenment, or simply awe at the majesty of the universe. That's the closest I get to God. But that is not a Creator in any sense. It's just a function of our brains able to experience certain states we don't normally experience. There is no faith involved because it is simply another mental state. But it also says nothing about the world outside our own minds.

[Irish_Dem]

54. Perhaps there is a divine being doing something every day.

Humans have not blown up the world. We still exist.

I look for God in remarkable events, situations and people.
You will know these things when you see or experience them.
They are totally out of the norm and generate a deep inner resonation.
It is subtle, not necessarily in your face kind of thing.

[marylandblue]

56. I agree with that, sort of

I think we have a spiritual capacity in our brains. There is a book called "The God Part of our Brain," which explores this. If I were more religious, I would say that this part of our brain actually can meet God. But I am not so religious, so I say it just feels that way, and that's good enough.

[Irish_Dem]

58. We could argue that the God part of the brain is an evolutionary force at work.

Humans with a belief in God formed tribal groups with norms and mores which
may have loaded on survival. ???

I would also say that it doesn't really matter if there is a God or not.

Humans are a mixture of good and evil. We see that play out every day.
And the point for me is to try to be on the side of good. It is an internal focus,
doesn't matter if there is a God or not.

So I am not locked into the notion that God exists.

[Irish_Dem]

51. Mine started as an intellectual exercise.

And I developed my own spirituality and belief systems.

I believe God exists in all of us, so I look for God in the day to day
situations and events.

For example, you can see every day posts on this forum which remind
me of God. Pure joy, happiness, or astute wisdom and leadership.

[guillaumeb]

68. An interesting response.

I find the Creator in creation. The evidence is, in my view, all around us.

[Irish_Dem]

72. Yes, a lot of people see God in nature. I see God in people and their creations.

Which is all around us.

Genius, art, music, leadership, literature.
Yes all around us.

For example, I see the Declaration of Independence as a sacred document.

[Bretton Garcia]

64. So I looked deep inside. And the voice said ...

"The secret to Guil," the voice said, is that Guil wants to constantly advocate all the main cliches of modern churches, like the Unitarians. And wants everyone to believe they are the real God.

The idea that you can find God if you "look within youself" especially, is one of the most common cliches that I heard in modern - c. 1950-1980 - quasi intellectual churches.

But is this modern cliche really invulnerable to criticism? Is it really the hot new idea?

The one good thing about this cliche though, might be that it is fairly compatible with humanism. Since if you look deep within yourself, you should find a deeper humanity.

"Know yourself."

[edhopper]

71. Any evidence that a deity

Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 05:35 PM - Edit history (1)

has any effect on the Universe.
Any sign that the Universe would not look exactly the same without a deity.

I certainly don't see it in any post of believers

[guillaumeb]

79. How would you know?

If the Creator exists, all of what you perceive would be what reflects, in part, the Creator's work. And it would be the norm to you.

[edhopper]

82. a Creator

is an unnecessary layer to the functioning Universe.

You come at this with the premise a Creator exists and try to explain why there is no evidence.

I see no evidence and conclude there is no Creator.

[Lordquinton]

75. So what you're saying

Is to redefine good until it fits the individual, but can be accepted by theists so that they don't have to ever hear a dissenting view again?

Nah. Define your god, show me how you found it, and then I'll use your methods.

So step one definition... Waitaminute....

[guillaumeb]

80. No, what you are framing is what you claim to be my views.

And you can reframe endlessly, and argue against that reframing as if you are arguing with me, if you like.

[Lordquinton]

99. And you avoid the topic completely

How predictible.

I'll put down theists dishonesty as a top reason I reject any idea there is a creator type being.

[procon]

76. Never felt the need to look for any mythical entities.

I'm now in my 70s and after a lifetime of watching people invent religious mores to fit their own fears, foibles and fantasies, the issue is moot and completely irrelevant to me.

[guillaumeb]

81. You have found your path.

Welcome to it.

[edhopper]

77. This thread

seems to presuppose there is a God to look for.

It's like the Ghost Hunters on TV. No skepticism if what they are doing is just chasing their own tail.

[guillaumeb]

89. If you do not believe in a deity, there is no need to look.

Thus saving time for other things.

[edhopper]

90. In fact

not being religious leaves a lot of time for better things.

[guillaumeb]

91. I have a lot of time for things also.

And still time for belief.

[edhopper]

92. I just think of all thos Saturdays wasted

in Temple.
But compared to the time the Orthodox waste in religious practice, that was nothing.

[guillaumeb]

93. Was it truly wasted?

Did you learn anything that helped you in life?

[edhopper]

94. A lot of fairy tales

and reasons the Jews were so so special.
Aso some damaging things about the Holocaust when I was too young for it.
But time against what I learned, largely a waste.

[guillaumeb]

95. Too bad that more do not learn about the Holocaust.

Especially the morons who march in Nazi uniforms.

[edhopper]

96. Do you think a nine year old

should see film of people who starved in concentration camps and bodies being dumped from gas chambers?

[guillaumeb]

97. No, I do not. Material should be age appropriate.

That type of thing should be shown at the secondary level.

[edhopper]

98. Well

now you know what I learned. Time would have been better spent watching Sat morning cartoons.

[Irish_Dem]

103. I have attended services in a synagogue, and I found them quite nice.

The music is astounding and magical, some of the prayers are superb.

But like you I am not much one for organized religion (raised Catholic).

[edhopper]

130. I suppose once or twice can be interesting

but the same thing every Saturday gets tedious.

[Irish_Dem]

132. I went every Friday night for a couple of years.

Family member is Jewish. I agree, anything you have to do, gets tedious
and not fun. This synagogue had a female Rabbi and her sermons were excellent.
I enjoyed that, and the music. But yes, gradually stopped going, as organized religion begins to wear on me.

[WhiteTara]

101. Looking for God assumes that

you must look outside yourself which is duality. If all in the universe are One, there can be no searching and no finding. All simply is.

[Irish_Dem]

105. Yes this is what I was trying to say in my posts, but you said it better White Tara.

Love your name

[WhiteTara]

107. Thanks. As I understand it

God can't be outside meddling about when God is everything, so all must be God.

I also think God is a misnomer as all is Mind. Outside Mind, there is no Buddha. Outside Buddha, there is no Mind.

[Irish_Dem]

108. Can you say more about Mind?

I usually think of God as coming from our Soul.
The Heart Chakra??

[WhiteTara]

109. The heart chakra is the seat of compassion

and I think what you call Soul is a close interpration of Mind. However, Mind comprises All and Soul seems to be a personal story line. My friend calls Mind, Essence that pervades All.

[Irish_Dem]

110. I think we mean the same thing, but use different terms. nt

[WhiteTara]

111. Very close

but I don't believe in a personal God or one that looks after this planet. (Although, if I did, She is a woman and black and angry.) I believe it is much more immense than that and it is ever expanding.

[Irish_Dem]

112. I don't believe God has gender or race.

I agree about the immensity and ever expanding part.
But I do believe God takes an interest in all souls.

[WhiteTara]

113. I believe in the laws of Karma

and that is what drives all lives of all sentient beings. Cause and effect...isn't that simple Newtonian physics?

[Irish_Dem]

115. Yes exactly. I believe this too. We are seeing a lot of karma taking place

lately.

[WhiteTara]

116. So are you saying that Universal Laws

equal God?

[Irish_Dem]

117. I would say Universal Laws are God's laws, and part of God. nt

[WhiteTara]

118. If God is everything

nothing can be "part of" God. It is or it isn't and since it all is, all are the whole...just as if you cut away a piece of the hologram, both pieces show the whole.

[Irish_Dem]

120. Again, semantics in the way.. God is his laws, and his laws are him. But he is more than his laws.

[WhiteTara]

121. Once again we have returned to the personal god..."him"

Okay, my dear. I'm out in my garden on this beautiful day.

Here's a Koan for you to ponder.

Outside Mind, there is no Buddha
Outside Buddha, there is no mind.

[Irish_Dem]

122. I know, God should be an it.

Will ponder the Koan....
Enjoy your day!

[Mariana]

123. Would you give some examples of karma taking place?

I want to be sure I understand what you mean.

[Irish_Dem]

124. There are many kinds of karma.

It is a complicated topic, but the kind I am noticing right now is the notion of spiritual accountability, or consequences for previous bad behavior that people got away with.

The Trumps seem to be facing some karma every day.They have been operating with impunity, a crime family, and now a light is shining on their lies, manipulations, greed, etc. And the same with their friends and colleagues who pretty much did whatever they wanted for personal gain. Trump is a con artist, a bluffer and liar, and now he is called out on everything he says. He had tremendous pride and desireto look wealthy and important. Now he is exposed as a fool.

Also the national media attention to the sexual harassment issue is calling out bad behavior that previously was buried. All at once, it is out in the open, with consequences to those who have done wrong.

The FBI is getting a piece of karma. Comey tried to sway the election, doesn't feel much guilt about it and now his name and the FBI are being maligned by the man he helped win the election.

There are more examples, these are just a few.

[Mariana]

125. Thank you. nt.

[Irish_Dem]

129. YW nt

[Voltaire2]

148. I think that is just confirmation bias.

There is no evidence for karma or for a "moral arc of the universe".

Trump for example - you seem to think he is being punished for his misdeeds. Actually he is sitting in the white house - a bucket list adventure he set out on about ten years ago, after a long life of being an absolute asshole and getting rewarded for it with wealth fame and power over and over again. If anything Trump's life is evidence that, quite obviously, the universe doesn't give a shit.

If there are consequences for bad behavior those consequences occur because of what we do in response to that behavior, nothing else matters.

[Irish_Dem]

150. Trump's karmic journey is far from over. It has just begun.

Every day you will see it take a more definite shape.

But his journey is more about the karma of the United States than him personally.
Our dark underbelly exposed for us to view in horror. So the American people are on a journey as well, time will tell if we can do the right thing.

And faith does not require evidence. It is quite personal, a person's relationship with his/her maker.

But if you look around you, you will see evidence of people acting in ways that reflect God.

[Voltaire2]

152. Of course you will see what you wish to see, that is what confirmation bias is.

But people get away with horrible shit all the time. There is no magical force evening things out. It is just us, what we do, that matters.

[Irish_Dem]

154. Faith is not confirmation bias to me.

I was trained as a scientist and eschewed anything spiritual as an adult.
Then some things happened that I could not explain rationally and I spent
some years investigating, learning and exploring spiritual issues.
Then matters became quite clear to me.

I think we are all on different journeys, and I respect every one's journey.

[trotsky]

153. "Trump's karmic journey is far from over. It has just begun."

You have absolutely no idea this is true. None whatsoever.

And this:
So the American people are on a journey as well, time will tell if we can do the right thing.

Is just a putrid thing to think. Millions are losing healthcare coverage on this "journey." Many thousands will DIE. To have the attitude of "well, we're on a journey" to fucking prove WHAT exactly? That real human beings with lives and families and goals and dreams only have the purpose of fulfilling karma for someone else by dying unnecessarily? What the hell did they do to deserve to be treated like this?

Oh and when will Dick Cheney's karma arrive? Kthx.

[Irish_Dem]

155. Do the American people play any part in selecting their leadership?

Do they have any responsibility for where things are right now?
Or are they victims of a rigged system.

I do not know the answer.

[trotsky]

158. That's a cop-out non-answer.

And it illustrates perfectly the problem with your belief in "karma."

"victims of a rigged system" - yes indeed they are. So why are THEY being punished, while the people who rigged it are enjoying the good life?

[KPN]

175. That is a good question. As a group here at DU,

I feel we operate on the basis of faith in that particular regard. Is it justifiable faith? I don't know for sure but I can say that my kids and many other millennial think not.

[marylandblue]

156. A better example is some of the horrible brutes of the past

Andrew Jackson, for example. He comitted genocide against the Indians, damaged the American economy by ending the Bank of the United States, and helped perpetuate slavery. For this he was reelected, died an honorable death and put on the $20 bill.

Or Ghenghis Khan who completely destroyed entire cities that would not submit to him. No Karma for his crimes. He built the world's largest empire.

[trotsky]

159. Agreed, those are great examples.

Entire lives we have recorded evidence for, with absolutely zero evidence of any karma being paid back to them at any time.

[Act_of_Reparation]

161. "I owe the public nothing."

so said JP Morgan. Died in his sleep. At age 75. In Rome.

No Karma there, either.

Then there's General Erich von Ludendorff. He got millions killed in World War I and when Germany he lost he blamed it on the Marxists, the Bolsheviks, and the Jews. Died at 72 of liver cancer. My grandfather died of liver cancer, and he was a saint.

[Irish_Dem]

106. An example of what I have been trying to say about finding God in people and in their creations.

A recent editorial by Dan Rather is clearly from his "Higher Angels"....
and I would assume something from angels is from God??

[guillaumeb]

140. He may have intended that meaning.

I cannot speak fro him.

[Irish_Dem]

142. I don't think it is a conscious process for most.

They are just writing something heartfelt.

[guillaumeb]

143. True, and language/religion/culture are all blended together.

So non-theists will use language with religious connotations without necessarily intending any religious sentiment.

[Irish_Dem]

144. Certainly atheists and non theists are capable of producing angelic or god like material.

They may call it by other names, inspiration from a muse.
Or they may see things in a dream state, certain geniuses have reported material coming to them in dreams.

Or as you say, categorize their creation in religious ways without religious sentiment.

I see people post things on this forum that remind me of God and the Angels.
Material that hits you in your heart chakra.
Or is so wise, it takes you aback, or hits you right between the eyes (third eye chakra).

When I see such posts, I am tempted to send them to you as more examples and proof of God,
but I am restraining myself lest you be inundated with angelic material.

[Binkie The Clown]

127. I gave up religion long before I gave up god.

My Catholic upbringing convinced me by age 7 that religion was B.S. (they kept telling me I was born evil and had to redeem myself, and I knew damn well there wasn't an evil bone in my body.), so I went looking in other directions. Over the years I tried out numerous Christian denominations, including LDS and Unity. Moved on to Unitarianism, and Theosophy without luck. Finding more of the same nonsense I looked East. Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi, Transcendental Meditation, etc. etc.

The only thing of value I ever found was the positive effects of mindfulness meditation on my mental and physiological state, and there was no need of any "god" hypothesis to benefit from deep meditation. Finally, I decided that not one single concept of god as taught in any human religion made any sense whatsoever. So I finally gave up both religion and god.

But I kept meditation because it actually works.

[guillaumeb]

141. And if it works I would say you found your path. eom

[Permanut]

131. Chocolate is absolute proof of a deity..

How the hell could chocolate "just happen"?

[marylandblue]

133. If there were a God, chocolate would not be fattening

And the four food groups would be sugar, salt, beer and pizza.

[Permanut]

136. Point taken..

So chocolate could be a trap, a tempation from that "other place".

[marylandblue]

138. Yes, clearly the forbidden fruit was a cacao bean

[Irish_Dem]

145. Now they are saying dark chocolate is nutrient dense. So it is really like medicine, right? nt

[Permanut]

147. I like where you're going with this..

[Irish_Dem]

149. A friend of mine drinks a glass of red wine, and eats a square of dark chocolate

every evening. She says it is for medicinal purposes only.

[Irish_Dem]

146. If angels ate and drank, they would eat chocolate and sip champaign?

In between heralding, singing and performing good works of course.

[KPN]

151. Everywhere.

I am Catholic by upbringing, but I do not participate and have not for years in any organized religion. I don't believe in God as described in the Bible. However, I do believe in something much more powerful and much more divine than humans. I am just not sure what that higher spirit/being/essence/power is.

Where do I find evidence of a higher spirit and nurture spiritualism within me? Primarily nature, but sometimes in individual human beings that I cross paths with -- whether just once, intermittently, or whenever I am around them (very few, hardly any by the way). I often find spiritualism in the morning sky.

As for evidence of A God in the form of or with an affinity for or special inclination favoring humans -- I don't really see any.

What was I looking for? What do I hope to find when I have looked for God? Nothing more than peace -- internal peace, peace of mind, and a general sense of good. Definitely not salvation, redemption from my sins/wrong-doings/personal weaknesses, etc. I am at peace with my own and man's ephemeral nature. I am at peace with my own imperfections, but not so much with our society's nor my own contributions to goodness overall. I sometimes think I need to do better in that last regard.

That's about it. Oh, I don't believe in the concept of "faith" given the evidence I do see -- which is basically human evidence.

[guillaumeb]

157. Do you see evidence of a Creator in creation?

If so, I understand your point. But if there is a Creator, our knowing of that Creator, what we call our knowing, would be a human knowing based on our limited human sentience.

[KPN]

164. Interesting question and point. That is if I understand your point.

Is realizing that this all had to come from somewhere, somehow evidence of a Creator? If yes, then I suppose I would have to say yes. At the same time, I'm not sure I would ascribe a specific notion to evidence of a Creator being limited to our human-ness, human sentience beyond what I have already said in my previous post. There are infinite possibilities which in itself makes faith in one possibility hard to accept for me personally. While faith may provide peace, relief, hope and even the possibility of salvation, it requires one choice among infinite possibilities. I get those things (peace, relief, hope and a sense of my own personal permanence) through my own interaction with the world and people around me, through my own personal spiritualism, without having made that choice.

I am at peace with and unafraid of my ephemeral nature as a human, a living organism. What does that say? What does that mean about my belief in a Creator?

[guillaumeb]

166. I was speaking about the ability of a human to actually understand

what the Creator is. My point is that when asking, we are asking with a limited human intelligence and limited capacity for understanding.

Imagine if you must a Creator that literally created all we accept as existence. What commonality, other then sentience, would a human have with that Creator?

I have previously used the analogy of an ant and a skyscraper. It is possible fro the ant to perceive the skyscraper, but the ant cannot describe what or who created the skyscraper. The difference in ability is far too great.

If you are at peace with your life, I would say you have chosen your own good path. And if you respect your neighbor as yourself, I would say you are living a good life.

[KPN]

176. Well I appreciate that.

There is no single right way to be on a good path. There are many. That's my belief ... so I'm happy to hear that from you guillaume.

Interesting thread.

[PatrickforO]

177. The Divine, or 'I am that I am' has many faces.

Its true essence is not knowable by us in our human state. All we can know is the various Divine faces as they show up in our own mental states.

Each person does have a higher self, of which they are not usually conscious. It is this higher self that is constantly in the presence of the Divine. Our lower states, not so much.

The Great Work of moving consciously closer to the Divine while in this life is difficult.

But, then, anything worth having is difficult.

[guillaumeb]

178. An excellent response.

Thank you for your contribution.

[AtheistCrusader]

180. I spent a lot of time listening to religious people talk about what they perceive as

supernatural contact/evidence/etc. Tried to replicate. Realized they were drowning in confirmation bias and delusion.

In a couple cases I pointed outright deception that they were victims of, to no avail. They remained faithful even though the foundation of why they chose faith was smoke and mirrors and could be demonstrated to be so.

The most direct search I could come up with was, 'thinking into the nothingness', asking for various assistance, confirmation, information, even a sense of some sort of emotion.. Nothing. It was the best search I could design to replicate what many of my Christian friends describe as a daily occurrence for them.

Pretty much all a waste of time.

[guillaumeb]

186. Do not waste your time.

Instead, focus on your own confirmation bias and congratulate yourself on your logic.

[AtheistCrusader]

199. It's not confirmation bias if I look where they tell me to look and nothing is there.

[Act_of_Reparation]

203. That's just you twisting the facts to suit your narrative.

Bill is on coffee break. I told him I'd cover for him. How am I doing?

[heaven05]

204. per your question, nothing

and I see 'god' in everything we are able to see, feel, hear. God is a control word, for the truly powerless trying to hold on to their pitiful concept of control over other human beings. NO ONE knows how we got here or where we're going when we return to the elements. And if our problems were caused by two idiots in some 'garden', I say fuck that, paying for other's mistakes. Religion is nothing but a tool to abuse the weak and take their money....Merry Xmas.....

[Snackshack]

227. I did...

...but what I found was even more despairing than what motivated me to look in the first place.

[guillaumeb]

228. What did you find? If I can ask. eom

[Snackshack]

233. Hypocrisy. EOM