Often religion is framed as magical thinking.

[guillaumeb]

Often, when arguments are raised against religion, unicorns and fairies are mentioned by those who feel that religious belief is simply silly fairy stories by another name.

But sometimes, generally in speculative fiction, one can be asked to imagine this world where there is no religion. Because, as we all know, and as the meme goes, religion is an obstacle to scientific progress, and religion is responsible for wars, and other bad things that have occurred in human history.

So if only we could magically remove the impulse to religious belief, we would have paradise on earth. Or if not paradise, at least a far more advanced, science based world.

And that, in my view, is true magical thinking. To think that what has always been a part of what it is to be human can vanish, or to feel that humans can magically evolve beyond what we have always shared, is true fantasy of the highest order.

And I am not in any way condemning imaginative thinking, because using the imagination can often lead to advances, but when dealing with human impulses that have always existed, or that seem at least to have always existed, we must recognize that wishing something away accomplishes nothing.

[Irish_Dem]

1. Science keeps us alive. Magical thinking makes life worth living. nt

[guillaumeb]

2. A nice way of framing it.

And many of us understand that faith and science deal with different areas. So we can know that gravity causes things dropped to always fall on our toes even as we believe in a deity.

[trotsky]

25. I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of a life without religion.

Thankfully your opinion is completely wrong!

[Irish_Dem]

27. You are wrong in your interpretation. I didn't mean religion at all.

I do not like man made religion, and do not consider it magical.

I am talking about things that are magical in this life.
Art, music, literature, nature, good people, kindness, etc....

[trotsky]

29. I enjoy those things as well but I do not classify them as "magical."

Why bother?

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" -- Douglas Adams

[Irish_Dem]

30. For me, they feel magical. I cannot explain it any other way.

I think the interpretation of the word magical is subjective.
And perhaps we disagree on the meaning of the word.
And it is no bother to explain how it feels, it is a part of who I am.

I don't necessary mean fairies and that kind of thing, but I do quite enjoy the thought of them.

I mean in every day life, some music, acts of kindness, etc. I see posts
on DU every week that feel magical to me.

Some of the well know Obama pictures have a magical quality to them.

It is actually a physical feeling for me as well as an emotional one.
I can feel something in the heart area, some would say the heart chakra when
there is magic about.

[trotsky]

31. Your statement though seems to indicate science has nothing to say...

about things you deem "magical." That to me is a very limited (and dangerous) way of thinking. Walling off certain areas, saying we cannot ever know more about these things and shouldn't even ask, etc. Bad stuff. Not very far from there to blasphemy charges, heretics, etc.

[Irish_Dem]

32. I happen to be a well trained, credentialed scientist, w/ advanced degrees from

a respected university.

I live the life of science every day and am quite competent in the science world.
I live and die by evidenced based practice. But have learned from reading about
famous scientists that inspiration plays a part in discovery and practice.

My science and spiritual sides are not in any conflcit at all.
We are complex beings with many parts to us. I would say
I am a successful scientist because of this complexity, not despite it.

And since you have been kind enough to warn me about the dangers of my world
view, perhaps you will allow me to do the same for you. There is a danger in trying
to pigeonhole people to conform with your world view. And to ascribe meaning and
motives to others with no basis in fact. You make some good points, but your
argument is diluted with ad hominem strategies. And black and white thinking
does not always work well in a world that is gray.

[marylandblue]

33. What you are calling magical, I would call mystical or metaphysical

Magical implies some sort of supernatural myth or trick, whereas the other two are more in the realm of feelings and philosophy about the real world.

[trotsky]

34. Thank you for critiquing a position I don't hold.

You have certainly dispatched that straw man. Bravo!

[cornball 24]

3. Faith and Reason can coexist and are co-complementary. The list of scientists who

are persons of faith is impressive.

[guillaumeb]

4. True, and most scientists from ages past were also people of faith.

Where I see conflict is from Biblical literalists who insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible.

[marylandblue]

20. If a text is completely non-literal, it means whatever you want it to mean

So there is no conflict, because there is nothing to conflict with. It's science vs. an empty page. Draw whatever you like. If it contradicts science, just erase it and pretend it was never there.

[PragmaticDem]

5. Well to non-believers it is magical thinking or wishful thinking.

To non-believers it seems like believers are looking for a hope that is not there, and that religion is holding humanity back.

What a world would look like without religion we don't know. I think in the next fifth years humanity will slowly find this out, because organized religion is declining.

[guillaumeb]

6. We shall see 5 years from now.

But I would not bet on religion or religious belief vanishing.


Many scientists who have religious beliefs might disagree with you.

[PragmaticDem]

7. I don't think belief in God will vanish but organized religion has taken a huge hit, and

will continue to. God isn't going anywhere though.

[Mariana]

8. No one thinks religion or religious belief will vanish.

Over time it's likely to have less influence in government, politics, education, science, etc.

[guillaumeb]

9. That is possible.

And we shall see at a certain point if this decline is a cyclical thing or not.

[JNelson6563]

10. Misery, shared misery, is the only cure.

For instance, when the black death hit Europe and wiped out huge swaths of the population, some began to realize that those who claimed to represent bible god on earth were as powerless and vulnerable to the disease as everyone else.

Look at post WWII Europe. Religion has been on the decline since that period and there are fewer believers there now than ever. Even in dumbed down America people are starting to wake up. Only in the less educated parts of the world (including areas in first world countries) are the numbers of religious increasing.

I suspect that, in time, this will continue and the believer will be the minority. If humankind lives that long. Eventually people realize "the power of prayer" is non-existent but getting off your ass and doing something actually works. Mind you it will take centuries more.

[guillaumeb]

12. A very long term view.

Or prediction.

[JNelson6563]

16. I'm a student of history.

When you're into history you see the long view of how we got to where we are. You have no illusions that great changes happen quickly or neatly.

[cornball 24]

13. IMO, it is possible to engage the power of prayer AND get off one's ass and do

something. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[JNelson6563]

15. But only one of those achieve results.

And more people seem to realize this daily. Additionally I would encourage bible reading. No faster way to see the light imo. It was certainly my most useful tool in reaching the truth.

[cornball 24]

18. IMO, prayer can be a motivator/facilitator to help one discern what is important and needed

to achieve results.

[JNelson6563]

19. Sounds like thinking to me.

[Ferrets are Cool]

11. In my view, christians use God as a

means to justify everything, good or bad. If something good happens, it was Gods Will, if something bad happens, it was Gods Will. If that isn't fanciful thinking, I don't actually know what is.
Thank goodness we DO have the ability to imagine, or it would be one boring world to live in.

[Voltaire2]

14. Unfortunately the oppressive patriarchal abrahamic

religions are not going away anytime soon. The good news is that in most developed countries their influence is waning. The bad news is that in the rest of the world it isn’t and the demographics are going in the wrong direction.

Your argument is a non sequitur. Religion is or is not magical thinking independent of any belief that it will disappear.

[marylandblue]

17. Fine if you equate magical thinking with religion

Then non-belief is non-magical thinking, not an equally unprovable belief system.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

21. I have no problem with magical thinking.

I love reading and read a wide breadth of types of literature: science fiction, fantasy, adventure, magical realism, etc.

The problem most non-theists have here is when theists act like their magical thinking is somehow superior to anyone else's and act like others should give it deference and respect that it doesn't deserve (for the record: I have no problems with the individuals that have beliefs, I just don't feel I need to respect the actual belief). And worse (though not as much on here as in the real world) are those that want to dictate what others should be able to do and not do based on that person's magical thinking. Screw that. Believe what you want, but leave me out of it. I don't need to follow the rules of your god any more than I do the rules of Thor.

[marylandblue]

22. I like fantasy and SF too, but

There is a big difference between liking magic and magical thinking. Just like there is a big difference between liking pink elephants and actually seeing them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Often, being wrong about something is framed as knowing less than an expert

But sometimes, one can be asked to imagine a society in which people know more than now.

So if we taught people better, we would have paradise on earth. Or if not paradise, at least a far more advanced, science based world.

But to think that people can know more than we know now is true magical thinking. To err is human, and it has always existed. We must recognise that wanting to teach people accomplishes nothing.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Yes, because the Dark Ages, the Enlightenment, and the Age of Reason are just names pulled out of

thin air that have no meaning whatsofuckingever.

[Snackshack]

26. No need to be told...

How to be a decent human. It is pretty easy to figure out.

[CrispyQ]

28. It seems to me that the societies that are the most successful,

in terms of lifestyle, longevity, happiness, it all comes down to education. The more educated a society is as a whole, the better that society serves everyone. This is why back in the 80s, the GOP focused on filling seats on school boards & made an unholy alliance with the evangelicals–dumb people down & give them a superstition to believe in that advances your agenda. Now, they have lost control of their monster & this past year has shown they are not going to try to wrest control of their party back from the deplorables, but rather, double down, hence the recent Trump ass kissing fest by GOP leadership.

You can almost tell what kind of Christian someone is by the party they affiliate themselves with.