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mia

(8,361 posts)
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 10:34 AM Feb 2018

The Scientists Who Look for Nothing to Understand Everything

The Z’ would be a sort of spiritual medium that communicates both with regular matter and dark matter, that mysterious stuff that accounts for all that extra mass scientists think they observe but can’t explain other than through observations with telescopes.

The Scientists Who Look for Nothing to Understand Everything Physicist Usama Hussain laughed uncomfortably every time the conversation even got close to the question, “Do you look for nothing?” His professors would kill him if they heard him agree with that. After all, he’s technically looking for a brand new particle that may or may not exist, with the hopes that it might help explain some of the Universe’s weirdness.

But hunting for a new particle (even the famous Higgs Boson) is a search for something by finding all of the nothing. It requires confirming all of the places it can’t be, and understanding all the properties it doesn’t have, so what’s left is the discovery. It’s like carving a sculpture from marble. You spend all your effort removing the nothing, and maybe you’ll end up with something. Or maybe not.

“Anything that happens, even if we find nothing at all, will be a revolution.”
And finding nothing where well-accepted theories predicted something is equally important. That could send theorists back to the drawing board, and require physicists to rethink their understanding of the Universe. In this new Wild West era of particle hunting, “Anything that happens, even if we find nothing at all, will be a revolution,” physicist James Beacham from the Ohio State University told me over a beer in the CERN cafeteria in Geneva, Switzerland.

“We’re really in uncharted territory as far as physics is concerned,” said Hussain. “The small hope is always there” that his team discovers a new particle—he specifically is looking for something called the Z’ (“Z-prime”) particle. The Z’ would be a sort of spiritual medium that communicates both with regular matter and dark matter, that mysterious stuff that accounts for all that extra mass scientists think they observe but can’t explain other than through observations with telescopes.(There’s also dark energy, which makes up most of the Universe’s mass-energy, but we don’t need to talk about that right now.) The Z’ particle’s shards consist of what looks like a skinny jet of subatomic particles with some missing energy....

https://gizmodo.com/the-scientists-who-look-for-nothing-to-understand-every-1796309514

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Scientists Who Look for Nothing to Understand Everything (Original Post) mia Feb 2018 OP
Sounds like they are searching for the Essence WhiteTara Feb 2018 #1
"Essence of the universe." mia Feb 2018 #2
That same essence is the essence of you and me WhiteTara Feb 2018 #3
That goes quite a bit beyond what is covered. trotsky Feb 2018 #4
Really? What makes us tick? WhiteTara Feb 2018 #5
Sorry for voicing my opinion. trotsky Feb 2018 #6
It's way too early in the day WhiteTara Feb 2018 #7
I like Lawrence Krauss' quote on the subject. trotsky Feb 2018 #8
You are consistent in your behavior here. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #9
Are you stalking me? trotsky Feb 2018 #12
The words "Spiritual medium" spoken by a scientist. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #14
Yes, and the words are metaphorical. trotsky Feb 2018 #15
Tell that to the author. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #16
You're the one claiming they aren't metaphorical. trotsky Feb 2018 #17
I am also looking for that spiritual medium. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #19
Straw man. trotsky Feb 2018 #21
You project a lot. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2018 #46
That isn't a quote. Look more carefully or be less disingenuous. AtheistCrusader Feb 2018 #51
I read that word medium as "ground" not WhiteTara Feb 2018 #29
I understand. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #41
It doesn't matter. It's the author's words. Not a quote of Usama Hussain. AtheistCrusader Feb 2018 #52
is that NO THING is unstable or WhiteTara Feb 2018 #23
Works better when you hear him say it. trotsky Feb 2018 #24
Now you are implying WhiteTara Feb 2018 #28
*sigh* trotsky Feb 2018 #31
Serious Question WhiteTara Feb 2018 #34
I found this by typing "Lawrence Krauss" into google.com and clicking the "I'm feeling lucky" button trotsky Feb 2018 #35
Well, Trotsky, if your argument to me WhiteTara Feb 2018 #43
"Preeminent astrophysicists today" Act_of_Reparation Feb 2018 #45
Shhh trotsky Feb 2018 #48
No one has said there is no objective reality WhiteTara Feb 2018 #49
I'm so sorry that I am not as advanced and enlightened as you. trotsky Feb 2018 #47
Oh, no. You are the most advanced and with the greatest WhiteTara Feb 2018 #50
Nothing is unstable. longship Feb 2018 #53
Very politely done. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #11
I am flattered by your infatuation with me. trotsky Feb 2018 #13
And that spiritual medium sounds to me like the Creator. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #10
Key words: "sounds to me" trotsky Feb 2018 #18
I was actually responding to another. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #20
So that's OK for you to do, but not for others? trotsky Feb 2018 #22
Of course it does. Voltaire2 Feb 2018 #25
God-Gapping (nt) NeoGreen Feb 2018 #26
I see "medium" as "ground." WhiteTara Feb 2018 #32
ok but seriously the use of that term was an unfortunate analogy. Voltaire2 Feb 2018 #38
and we've talked before about the holographic universe WhiteTara Feb 2018 #30
That's quite a few unsupported claims there. trotsky Feb 2018 #33
Now I'm going to be late WhiteTara Feb 2018 #36
Yes, I know what a hologram is. trotsky Feb 2018 #37
And predictably a crappy analogy has been Voltaire2 Feb 2018 #27
More like a light at the end of the tunnel. Speaking of 'Z' words, did you know that Voltaire's mia Feb 2018 #39
i had no idea. Then again I'm a second rate voltaire. Voltaire2 Feb 2018 #44
It's funny how many of those who consistently poo-poo science as being limited... trotsky Feb 2018 #42
I found this picture more helpful than that gobble-de-gook: struggle4progress Feb 2018 #40

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
4. That goes quite a bit beyond what is covered.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 12:50 PM
Feb 2018

Pretty, poetic, neat, yeah. But not at all what's being talked about.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
7. It's way too early in the day
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:07 PM
Feb 2018

for a confrontation.

So, I have no idea what your opinion is regarding the OP. Would you like to address that?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
8. I like Lawrence Krauss' quote on the subject.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:11 PM
Feb 2018

"...the question why is there something rather than nothing then becomes sort of trite because nothing is unstable. It will always produce something."

There are physical laws we can describe with mathematics that explain this. I'm sorry if that isn't poetic or happy enough, but slapping on existential meaning to things unnecessarily can lead to problems. Namely, the idea that this is a "confrontation." It's me expressing my opinion. Are you OK with that?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
9. You are consistent in your behavior here.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:19 PM
Feb 2018

And it is quite apparent to most.

But, to your earlier argument, there was this, from the actual areticle:

We’re really in uncharted territory as far as physics is concerned,” said Hussain. “The small hope is always there” that his team discovers a new particle—he specifically is looking for something called the Z’ (“Z-prime”) particle. The Z’ would be a sort of spiritual medium that communicates both with regular matter and dark matter, that mysteriou


Another way of describing the Creator, but I understand that you apparently cannot admit this point.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
12. Are you stalking me?
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:28 PM
Feb 2018

Sheesh.

I understand metaphorical language. Literal minds (like yours?) struggle with it.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
17. You're the one claiming they aren't metaphorical.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:38 PM
Feb 2018

The burden is on you.

Do the Christian thing, g. Show everyone what a good Christian is supposed to look like.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. I am also looking for that spiritual medium.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:42 PM
Feb 2018

Some feel that a spiritual medium does not exist, preferring blind chance and random circumstance.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
21. Straw man.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:44 PM
Feb 2018

You just can't help yourself.

You keep showing everyone what a Christian is supposed to look like, g. You're doing such a good job.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
46. You project a lot.
Fri Feb 2, 2018, 10:00 AM
Feb 2018

Do you actually think you understand the inner motivations of those you talk to, or are you just bullshitting because you got nothing else?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
51. That isn't a quote. Look more carefully or be less disingenuous.
Fri Feb 2, 2018, 06:29 PM
Feb 2018

The author of the article typed that. It's not a quote of the Scientist in question. There is insufficient data in the article/interview to see if he actually said that.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
29. I read that word medium as "ground" not
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:21 PM
Feb 2018

a spiritualist sitting around stirring a bowl of cosmic stew.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
24. Works better when you hear him say it.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:58 PM
Feb 2018

The former. "Nothing" is unstable. Virtual particles pop in and out of existence all the time in the nothingness of space.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
28. Now you are implying
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:19 PM
Feb 2018

Nothing is something...it has to be something to be unstable.

Here is my favorite teaching. This is called the Heart Sutra and doesn't refer to the human heart but the heart of the Perfection of Wisdom. It is important to understand also that nothing is not nihilism but devoid of inherent existence.

This is a whole story of setting and teaching. IMHO it does not negate physics, either quantum or mechanical. The Dalai Lama teaches that if you discover a deeper truth from science, you must accept that. I think the Buddha was 6th century bc and these truths still remain just that and are backed up quantum, string theory and etc, known physics.

http://www.tibetanbuddhist.org/sites/default/files/Heart%20Sutra_Layout%201.pdf

I'm gone for the rest of the day. I hope yours is filled with wonder, joy and happiness.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
31. *sigh*
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:27 PM
Feb 2018

You can believe whatever you want.

It's just not supported by this science, or any science for that matter. That's all I'm saying. I realize that in your eyes this makes me a horrible, unfeeling, cold-hearted fool. Fine. Whatever you gotta think. Good luck.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
34. Serious Question
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:31 PM
Feb 2018

who is Lawrence Krauss? I'm sure he is very important and I confess my ignorance as to his existence and words. Please, seriously, tell me more.

And now really, I have to go. I'll look forward to your reply tonight when I get home.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
43. Well, Trotsky, if your argument to me
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 07:47 PM
Feb 2018

is that there is no creator god, you have no argument.

I could tell you didn't read the link in my post as you responded within moments about the Perfection of Wisdom. I'm sorry the words are too poetic for your taste, but the essence (there's that word again) is this. There is no duality and all is one. I think that Krauss explained that.

Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form
Form is not other than Emptiness and Emptiness is not other than Form.

If you are into reading some astrophysicists, one of my favorites on explaining the Holographic Universe is Michael Talbot. I find this fascinating. His work is backed up by David Bohm one of the preeminent astrophysicists today.
http://rense.com/general69/holoff.htm

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
45. "Preeminent astrophysicists today"
Fri Feb 2, 2018, 09:59 AM
Feb 2018

Both Talbot and Bohm have been dead for more than twenty years.

And I don't see how Bohm's model of a holonomic brain (which suggests the physical functions of cognition are similar to the physical functions of a hologram) as being particularly supportive of Talbot's "there is no objective reality because the whole universe is a hologram, man" cosmological model.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
49. No one has said there is no objective reality
Fri Feb 2, 2018, 05:44 PM
Feb 2018

If you doubt it, pinch yourself.

And I should have said "of their time." Thanks for the correction.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
47. I'm so sorry that I am not as advanced and enlightened as you.
Fri Feb 2, 2018, 10:09 AM
Feb 2018

Thank you for trying your best on a poor stupid idiot like me.

Rense is a conspiracy site, BTW.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
50. Oh, no. You are the most advanced and with the greatest
Fri Feb 2, 2018, 05:50 PM
Feb 2018

grasp on the universe and all that encompasses. May all good fortune follow you.

longship

(40,416 posts)
53. Nothing is unstable.
Fri Feb 2, 2018, 07:22 PM
Feb 2018

Here it is, from Mr. Heisenberg:


The counter is also true from the given inequality. The uncertainty of energy of empty space, given any arbitrary small time frame, approaches infinity as the time frame of the measurement approaches zero.

Therefore, as Richard Feynman said when asked Why is there something rather than nothing?: "Nothing is unstable."

Nothing is inconsistent with the characteristics of reality. It's just that simple.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
10. And that spiritual medium sounds to me like the Creator.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:20 PM
Feb 2018

Quakers say that each person has in them a spark of the Creator.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
20. I was actually responding to another.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 01:43 PM
Feb 2018

Interesting how you feel the need to respond to everything that I post.

Voltaire2

(13,139 posts)
25. Of course it does.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:05 PM
Feb 2018

To me “spiritual medium” invokes images of Madam Lafarge charging idiots serious money to “contact” dead people.

But if your god is a connector particle between matter and dark matter that is a pretty wee godlet you got there.

Voltaire2

(13,139 posts)
38. ok but seriously the use of that term was an unfortunate analogy.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 03:32 PM
Feb 2018

Much like calling the Higgs Boson the "God Particle", it is causing confusion among people grasping for scientific evidence for religious beliefs.

This theoretical particle would be a connection between ordinary matter and "dark matter", discovering evidence for its existence would help increase our understanding of dark matter, and of the physical nature of the universe. No religious claims were being made.

WhiteTara

(29,722 posts)
30. and we've talked before about the holographic universe
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:27 PM
Feb 2018

of which we are a part. When you cut the hologram into those "pieces/sparks" you still have the WHOLE of the hologram. Therefore, we are our own "Creator." We can not escape responsibility for anything of our lives.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
33. That's quite a few unsupported claims there.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:29 PM
Feb 2018

Neat beliefs, but there's no evidence for any of them.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
37. Yes, I know what a hologram is.
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:39 PM
Feb 2018

The only ones we know exist are the ones we generate with electricity.

Your claims don't concern those, so your link doesn't help.

Voltaire2

(13,139 posts)
27. And predictably a crappy analogy has been
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 02:12 PM
Feb 2018

glommed onto by those desperately seeking confirmation in the allegedly separate “magisteria” of science that their gods exist.

No Z’ is not Zeus or whatever, nor is it this alleged Sparky bit.

mia

(8,361 posts)
39. More like a light at the end of the tunnel. Speaking of 'Z' words, did you know that Voltaire's
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 03:48 PM
Feb 2018

childhood name was "Zozo"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
42. It's funny how many of those who consistently poo-poo science as being limited...
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 04:52 PM
Feb 2018

or incapable of grasping the whole of existence, simultaneously crave its validation for their pet beliefs.

struggle4progress

(118,334 posts)
40. I found this picture more helpful than that gobble-de-gook:
Thu Feb 1, 2018, 04:06 PM
Feb 2018

http://www.quantumdiaries.org/tag/z-prime/

Existing theories predict the Higgs boson, Z', and graviton can all decay into a b quark and an anti-b quark

It's my understanding that those products would not be directly observable, so (in some sense) it's a discussion about book-keeping rules and their consequences for observable decay products

It's an interesting topic. But as far as I can tell, the only reason the article is posted in this forum is that the scientist hasn't learneds to talk to lay-listeners about his research and spouts gibberish about "a sort of spiritual medium that communicates both with regular matter and dark matter"



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