Religion is inconvenient for those who demand certainty.

[guillaumeb]

Theistic religion involves a belief in a deity, and faith that a deity exists.

Some prefer concrete things, rejecting everything that they cannot measure, or weigh, or photograph.

Some call all religion an illusion or a delusion. Some feel that their own intellect is capable of discerning what is true and what is merely illusion. The Greeks had a word for that. The word is hubris.

[trotsky]

1. "Some prefer concrete things, rejecting everything that they cannot measure, or weigh, or photograph

I know of no one like this.

Smells like a straw man.

[MineralMan]

2. I've never met anyone like that.

Everyone I know accepts many intangible things as real parts of life. Maybe you know a different sort of people than I do. I do know a number of people, though, who do not accept some things as real, such as deities and supernatural entities of that sort. But, that does not preclude acceptance of other intangible things, like emotions and interpersonal feelings.

Those cannot be measured, weighed or photographed, certainly.

[marylandblue]

3. The only people I know who demand certainty are religious

They find certainty in their beliefs. The world is messy and uncertain, but they take comfort that God is in charge and has told them what to do.

[MineralMan]

5. A very good point.

Accepting that there is no certainty is very difficult for some. It's impossible for others.

Embracing uncertainty as the norm is not for everyone, I suppose.

[Eliot Rosewater]

76. BRILLIANT response!

I agree with you, but sometimes I find the barrage of nonsense so overwhelming I overlook the obvious, like your response.

[KPN]

80. Exactly! And that is the only certainty they have -- their beliefs ....

which goes a long way to explaining denial of facts that have nothing to do with religion directly.

[elleng]

4. LIFE is inconvenient for those who demand certainty, guill!!!

[guillaumeb]

11. True.

[Girard442]

6. I believe only in tangible things whose existence is directly observable.

You know, things like dark matter.

[light Worker]

52. you make a good point...

Scientists such as theoretical astrophysicists and particle physicists often embrace their beloved theories with a religious fervor. ...even to the point of assuming them as fact - without the benefit of empirical evidence. Ironically, these people are often among the first to scoff at religion.

[uriel1972]

53. Thing is...

We can test for the existence or non-existence of physical things like dark matter.
Gods on the other hands are, or should I say their adherents are fond of goalpost moving to point of saying they're undetectable.
Which brings forth the question, if something is undetectable in the physical universe, how can anyone tell if they are just making up crap or not?
If there is no way to prove or disprove a Deity, then how can we tell they exist, or what they want us to do?
Follow our "Intuition" which is to say "make shit up that sounds right to us"?

[light Worker]

94. I get your point...

...however one could argue that - since things like dark matter, dark energy, and the Big Bang exist solely as theory to explain observed phenomena - those who accept and promote them as fact actually exhibit the very some faith based modality as their religious counterparts.

[MineralMan]

95. Yes, but there is observable evidence of those things, even it we can't study

them as actual phenomena just yet. Evidence that leads ever closer to those things. Eventually, we'll be able to study the things themselves. No such luck with deities.

[light Worker]

98. Isn't theory exactly that? - theory?

IMO there's allot of bad theoretical science out there (particularly re: particle & astro-physics) which ignores hard, observable, and reproducible evidence gleaned from rigorous experimental scientific methodology. Some of the leading purveyors of the popular theories (we see them in "documentaries" all the time) willfully ignore contradicting evidence staring them directly in the face. ...and they do so with what can be appropriately described as a religious fervor.

Here's a fascinating video which illustrates my point; please enjoy it and respond after...

[uriel1972]

99. Like the Theory of Gravity...

It is wrong to think there is "settled" science and "theoretical" science. It is all theory, with degrees of certainty, even the things most of us take for granted like the "Laws" of Thermodynamics. Science was, is and always will be a work in progress.

[light Worker]

100. Generally, I agree.

So why do some of these leading advocates of the popular theories feel the need to proselytize, when there exists substantial scientific evidence which is incongruent with their beliefs?

[marble falls]

62. and strings!

[yallerdawg]

7. Hey, GB, I really like how they are saying they believe in all manner of intagible faith things now.

Last edited Wed Apr 18, 2018, 02:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Just reject the "deity" part because there is no concrete proof and evidence.

No "hobgoblins of little minds" here!

[marylandblue]

8. Intangible, unmeasurable and uncertain are not the same things

Love is intangible but can be certain. Quantum mechanics is intangible and measurable, but the measurements limit certainty. The closing price of the stock market tomorrow is uncertain today but measureable tomorrow.

Believers like the certainty of knowing that tomorrow's stock market is in God's hands. Unbelievers accept that the outcome is uncertain.

[guillaumeb]

9. What is love?

The concept of love is a man made construct that attempts to explain certain behavior. What you call love another might call self-interest.

[MineralMan]

12. Love is a self-defined emotion.

Its definition is as varied as the people who love and are loved. It is real, but can only be understood by each individual who experiences it, receives it, or longs for it.

There is no worthwhile standard definition of the word.

[guillaumeb]

16. Faith and belief are similarly defined.

[MineralMan]

21. Yes, and so?

Both are also human feelings or emotions. Why would they be any different? I don't doubt that people have religious faith and beliefs, nor have I ever indicated that they don't. They are real human characteristics.

And, both, like love, can be mistaken for something else at times. Both can be wrong, just as believe that someone loves you can be wrong.

Such human responses are real, but are intangible and immeasurable. You say you have faith, and I believe you do. I also think that what you have faith in does not exist. Your faith is not mine.

[marylandblue]

14. Love is a feeling not a concept

It is a feeling of attachment to someone or something. Love is certain because I know how I feel. Someone may say it is just self-interest, but that doesn't change how I feel.

[guillaumeb]

17. Faith and belief are also concepts.

And love as you express it is certain and provable to you.

[marylandblue]

18. Faith and belief certainly exist

But the thing you have faith in may not. You can also love something that doesn't exist.

[thewhollytoast]

51. Very well put.

It brought this to mind.

A controversial advertising campaign featuring the slogan 'There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life' was launched today on Britain's trains and buses.

But despite its gloomy undertones the advert creators said it had a positive message which encouraged people to enjoy life instead of worrying about what happened afterwards.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1106924/Theres-probably-God--stop-worrying-enjoy-life-Atheist-group-launches-billboard-campaign.html

Toast

[guillaumeb]

10. But if ones uses the word "accept" that avoids the word "belief".

I also think that hubris plays an enormous part in the mindset. But recognizing one's own failings is much more difficult than pointing out the simplistic, childlike cognitive deficiencies of others.

[MineralMan]

13. Hubris, eh?

Self-defined, I see.

[guillaumeb]

15. Read a bit about it.

But, as I stated, it can be difficult for all of us to recognize what is obvious to others. That self recognition is a big step to take.

[marylandblue]

20. There are techniques for finding your own failings

One of them is to listen to what others say about you, rather than discount it. You do not use this technique, at least not in this group. Listen and you will gain wisdom. Don't listen and you will never know the thing that others see so clearly.

[guillaumeb]

23. That assumes good faith on the part of the responders.

And if one observes the same tactics directed at any positive posts about religion, inferences might be drawn as to motivation.

[marylandblue]

25. No, good faith is not assumed

Your enemies will tell you things that your friends overlook.

[guillaumeb]

27. That assumes that the enemies are both observant and sincere.

[marylandblue]

30. For someone who says "I understand" a lot

you really understand very little. You can learn from EVERYONE. And I do mean everyone. But if you are only willing to listen to those you deem sincere, you will miss many opportunities for learning.

[guillaumeb]

32. There is criticism and there is reflexive attack.

And I rely on my own judgement when categorizing the responses as criticism or reflexive attack.

[MineralMan]

41. Personal Judgement May Not Be Accurate

Thinking it is is an example of the "hubris" you have mentioned.

[guillaumeb]

44. Feel free to discuss hubris, or the Giraudoux quote if you prefer.

[MineralMan]

45. I always feel free to discuss anything I wish to discuss.

I need neither permission nor guidance from you.

[guillaumeb]

46. And ignore what you choose to ignore?

I understand both positions.

[MineralMan]

47. Yes, of course. Free will.

You say you understand, but demonstrate that you do not.

[Eliot Rosewater]

77. Seems someone or group is hell bent on making YOU believe what they believe.

[MineralMan]

79. That trick never works, though.

Try as they might, they cannot change truth.

[Act_of_Reparation]

19. Feeling especially aggreived today, are we, Gil?

[guillaumeb]

22. Never.

Except when I hear Trump lying. SO I try to avoid listening to him.

[Eliot Rosewater]

78. I admire your sense of humor.

[msongs]

24. religion is made up stuff. the greeks called that delusional. nt

[DetlefK]

26. Oh yay! Even more incomprehensible pseudo-intellectual gibberish!

It is religion who makes absolute statements about what is true and what is illusion.
(Religious people have a word for people who doubt religion's absolute statements. They are called heretics.)

And if you would have bothered to actually invest one iota of thought into your OP instead of posting yet another illogical sermon that is supposed to sound correct because it uses big words, you would have known that it is science that evades making absolute statements because science always leaves the door open that a claim could be wrong. Always. Absolute statements are the antithesis of the scientific method. Read it up.

Who am I kidding. Reading up would take away precious time from posting pseudo-profound propaganda-pieces to make religion sound favorable.

[guillaumeb]

28. I am suitably devastated.

[DetlefK]

37. It is believers like you who give believers a bad name.

We all know there are smug atheists who love nothing more than belittling believers as gullible and stupid. But when you post something as blatantly hypocritical and illogical, you make it hard for us moderate atheists to see religion as something worthy of discussion.

How is an atheist even supposed to engage a believer in a discussion about God if this believer doesn't know the basic tenets of religion and science???

How am I supposed to take you seriously if you post nonsense like this???

[Mariana]

42. Religion is absolutely worthy of discussion.

Some posters refuse to engage in discussion of religion. Gil, for example, has explained to us several times that his reasons for posting here have nothing to do with discussing religion. Rather, he is performing to entertain an audience. He's told us that he receives numerous personal messages asking him to continue doing what his is doing in this group, and praising his efforts. Naturally, one can't expect to have a serious, honest discussion with someone whose goal is entirely different.

[sprinkleeninow]

49. Hello moderate Atheist,

What do you wish to know?
But please don't ask things too deep of me.
I am nowhere's near a theologian with creds.
If you don't respond--no worries, no offense.

[Mariana]

82. Please don't underrate yourself. You are awesome.

[sprinkleeninow]

83. Well now, that's the second vote of confidence I 've been granted

within the last two decades. 😄 Appreciated!

Half serious. Some peoples think I'm offa the beam a tad. "Whut's WRONG with her??"

I kinda like who I am considering. 🤗

Always be yourself. If it's quirky or bohemian, that's cool!

[Mariana]

86. Oh, I absolutely think you're off the beam a tad.

And, I think you're awesome. Those things aren't mutually exclusive at all.

[sprinkleeninow]

88. Pretty please, or more emphatically:

"Don't Make Me Over...." [lyrics]
🍻 😉

And you possess a quantifiable awesomeness yourself!

[Hey youse guys,
Don't interrupt our mutual admiration-fest! 😊]

A demain. 🌜🌠

[Major Nikon]

29. You demonstrate a poor understanding of what the Greeks meant

[guillaumeb]

33. Demonstrate your own.

[Major Nikon]

48. For one thing the word referred to humiliation of the gods

Pretty hard to shame something you don’t believe in. The other thing is the Greeks were decidedly polytheists, so if the Greek usage of hubris meant simply denial of the gods (and it doesn’t), a monotheist who denied the two dozen or so Greek gods would be just as guilty, if not more so.

[guillaumeb]

56. From Google

hu·bris
ˈ h)yo͞obrəs/
noun
noun: hubris
excessive pride or self-confidence.

[Major Nikon]

57. From your own words...

The Greeks had a word for that. The word is hubris.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218280033

The literal definition isn't what you referenced, but as far as that goes, had you made it past the first reference you might have better educated yourself on the subject. As far as the literal reference goes, that word works both ways. You can't know your own doctrine and dogma you preach isn't pissing off Zeus or Allah and there may be a day of reckoning for it.

You may want to check your own hubris.

Just sayin'

[MineralMan]

59. How simplistic!

You quote just one of its definitions, after counseling people to go learn about it. That's a very weak showing on your part. Even the default Google definition includes more, but you quoted only the part you wished.

Here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

At least try, won't you, please...

Sometimes, you are your own nemesis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis

[guillaumeb]

63. Thank you for the lecture.

If only we could see our own faults as others see them, agreed?

[MineralMan]

64. Not a lecture. Links to information

You appear not to know.

[guillaumeb]

65. For some reason the Giraudoux quote comes to mind.

It might simply be caused by random neurons firing.

[Eko]

31. I think the most hubris is observed

when someone tells you they know something is true without being able to prove it and will flat out tell you they cant prove it and that no one can.

[guillaumeb]

34. But if they say that they have faith,

and that the faith is unprovable, that is not hubris.

[Eko]

35. I dont see how it isnt.

Hubris-exaggerated pride or self-confidence

[guillaumeb]

43. We will disagree.

[trotsky]

40. No, it still is.

Even more so when it's shoved in everyone's faces as an "nyah, nyah, applies to thee but not to me" manner as you do.

[Eko]

36. The people that built the titanic had faith that it couldnt sink.

Classic case of hubris.

[uriel1972]

38. actually that is untrue...

The media called it "Unsinkable" not the builders or designers.

[uriel1972]

39. This sounds like a job for... Strawman!

Science is a doubt system, not a belief system.
It is a system for measuring relative certainty, to find what is the most likely explanation that can be ascertained with the current technology.

Tomorrow the ball may fall up, that is the nature of science. What is "known" is always interrogated and updated as new information flows in.

That it is not perfect is a given, that it is not certain is a given, that it is a human construct is also a given.

Certainty is for the religious.

[Major Nikon]

50. Lots of fanatical religious people don't think so

For them, accepting evidence based conclusion is no different than accepting mythology as both require "faith".

[wasupaloopa]

54. Religion is never inconvient for those you describe. They simply ignore it. What is inconvinient

is for the religious to exist along side of them.

[Act_of_Reparation]

55. Sure is hard being religious in America, isn't it?

Honestly, I don't know how you get through the day.

[Major Nikon]

58. Life was much easier when you had heretic BBQs in the town square every weekend

[Act_of_Reparation]

61. Now those pesky blasphemers think they can have opinions and type them on the internet.

Oh Lord, the Heathen has come into Thine inheritance!

[sprinkleeninow]

84. How did you know that?

"O Lord, save thy people, and bless thine inheritance."

What, you think He'd be aghast and/or baffled to find some of youse amongst His inheritance?

I said that lovingly. Not in the manner of a wise acre.

[wasupaloopa]

68. Not by being religious

[guillaumeb]

66. I accept that they believe differently.

[Major Nikon]

67. I believe you are wrong

I guess that makes me a believer

[fleabiscuit]

60. Non Sequitur. nt

[Bretton Garcia]

69. A DU counterargument to Guil

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=279972

[Lordquinton]

72. This is Gil's flattery thread

MM should feel honored.

[MineralMan]

73. That thread was posted first.

[Bretton Garcia]

74. Guil pretends to defend openness in religion, as a major point

But he's very, very inflexible about it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

81. Why this whole thing is so funny is a real christian, and there are only a few really

(closest are JW) would not engage in an argumentative debate about Jesus.

Would never be involved in politics OR for that matter vote, they are not allowed to.

Oh well.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

70. You have it BACKWARDS. Uncertainty is foundational to science and technology.

Religious people have faith and they hold with certainty. No evidence or demonstrated lack of evidence will shake them. That's certainty. That is hubris: that person thinking they are one of a select group "in the know" and superior to other people.

Scientific theories are called theories for a reason: they are uncertain and can be changed when new evidence arrives.

Newton's Theory of Gravity was held for centuries but Einstein showed that it fails under some conditions and revamped it. That is how scientists deal with uncertainty.

Engineers and scientists are always concerned with the accuracy of measurements and that is why you frequently see error bars and tolerances. Example: 29.57 +/- 0.05 deg Celsius.

Studies frequently invoke statistics throughout and right up to the conclusions. Example: such-and-such drug delivers a 25% improvement in healing with a p-value less than 0.05, which means that figure will be true 95% of the time or better (19 out of 20 trials). But it is uncertain just how much better and no knowing which trial will be in the 5%.

Uncertainty is foundational to Science and Engineering.

[Lordquinton]

71. You sure are flattering MM with this thread

What is it you say? Imitation and all that?

[guillaumeb]

75. So when I read MM's and others imitations of my threads?

As in the threads on hypocrisy or the 11th Commandment?

Thank you for confirming what I suspected. I am happy to be your role model and inspiration.

[sprinkleeninow]

85. Heh-heh. 😉

Imitation is that whachamacallit form of flattery.
Or how it's said. I'm too knished to look it up.

[guillaumeb]

87. And they love when the imitation is noticed.

Except when they act as if their brand of imitation is somehow different.

[sprinkleeninow]

89. It's a human condition within humanity. Imitation

bien ou imitation mal.

We caint hep ahselfs.

I 💛 ya no matter what!

Speaking of which whattabout....

I'm in the mood for some crème glacée. Whattabout now!

[guillaumeb]

90. D'accord.

Je préfère la crème glacée au beurre et aux noix de pecan.

[sprinkleeninow]

91. Butter Pea-can. Ou Butter Pah-cahn. Ou Butter P'can.

However you pronounce, it is yummy !

[Lordquinton]

92. This post gave me whiplash

[Bretton Garcia]

93. Yes. And it gets pretty Freudian in the end too.

Guil' s liberal, allegedly open Christianity has some overlap with liberalism. But traditionally religion was anything but open or flexible. Until liberals and science taught it to be.

[Lordquinton]

96. Dragged kicking and screaming into the 19th century

It's liberal until the point it doesn't need to be, the church has gotten good at hiding behind it's privilege.

No sense of irony either.

[guillaumeb]

97. File a claim for an internet forum related injury.