Simply Not Respecting Certain Religious Groups Is Not Enough.

[MineralMan]

In some cases, those groups need to be fought, tooth and nail, by their fellow religionists and others. Fighting religious organizations and denominations that have as their goal turning this nation and the world into a "Dominion of God," for example, is essential. Christians who do not agree with their goals, along with non-believers and adherents to other religions, need to join together to block those plans.

It's not optional. Inaction is not the answer. It's time to wake up and examine the goals of such groups and fight back. Tolerance is not acceptable in the face of such threatening, conspiratorial plotting. We must not tolerate religion-backed racism, bigotry, misogyny and other doctrines that strike at the core of our ethical compasses.

Enough, my DU friends, is enough!

[unblock]

1. it's quite possible to respect their beliefs for themselves and oppose them imposing them on others.

because that's where the problem lies.

[MineralMan]

2. I refuse to respect any beliefs that ignore the rights of others.

I will not, under any circumstances respect beliefs that countenance racism, misogyny, and other bigotry. And, make no mistake, there are large and politically powerful religious organizations who hold exactly such beliefs.

I cannot, and will not, show any respect for such beliefs. Not a chance.

[unblock]

4. fair enough, though for political purposes i find the line i described as more useful.

the old adage, your rights end at the tip of someone else's nose.
combined with, well, everyone's got the right to be an *sshole -- though again, that right stops at the tip of someone else's nose.

wow, that's a really unfortunate mixed metaphor....


if someone believes that abortion is murder, then i'll respect their decision to never have an abortion themselves, and if male, to never ask someone else to have an abortion. but i'll not respect any attempt to deny others that right.


i happen to believe that the anti-abortion point of view is inherently misogynistic, even if a woman holds that view and believes it only applies to herself. but i'll respect her views and her decisions, even though i think there's some misogyny involved.

[MineralMan]

5. Here's the problem: People who hold bigoted beliefs

will work to put people in office who share those beliefs. That means that those beliefs are likely to become law, even if the person who votes for those people doesn't state the idea that they should be imposed on others.

It's necessary to fight bigoted beliefs if we are to maintain everyone's rights. It's not enough to simply tolerate the beliefs while attempting to block them from being applied to others.

Your abortion example is a good one. People who oppose it, or who oppose all contraception, don't mind if such things are made illegal. It suits them just fine. That's why we keep seeing attempts to remove reproductive rights in so many states. We're always just one Supreme Court decision away from losing those rights.

We have to fight against the beliefs, even if their imposition is not an immediate risk. That is what we're seeing with the Trump administration right now.

[unblock]

8. i agree with what you're saying, and agree we should oppose those views.

maybe it's a fine point, but i think we can oppose those misogyny in the public sphere, and fight racism in the law, and so on, while still respecting other people holding personal views with which we disagree.

when i have the unpleasantness of debating bigots, i tell them "you're entitled to your views, even if i strongly disagree with them, you're entitled to avoid black people in your personal life if you prefer to live your life that way. but you're not entitled to deny basic rights and equal treatment under the law to black people. nor are you entitled to quiet acceptance if you talk about your racist views. if you want to advertise those views, you have to be willing to accept strongly negative feedback."

[MineralMan]

11. OK. We all have to do what we're comfortable with, I guess.

I'm not comfortable with your approach, though. I will explain why those beliefs are wrong, directly. I will tell individuals that their beliefs are bigoted and harmful, directly. If they persist, I will simply stop discussing with them altogether.

[unblock]

14. i do the same. respectfully.

many times, the people i talk to don't realize their views are bigoted because they buy into the thin veil republican put on their policies (or used to, before donnie came along). for instance, many republicans don't realize their anti-abortion views are misogynistic, because they think about only the fetus and their thinking stops there.

i'll certainly set them straight on that point. but i'm always careful to make it clear that the *policy* is bigoted or sexist, not the person i'm talking to.

i certainly will engage them on their views. "respect" doesn't mean "roll over".

[Voltaire2]

9. Why should I respect vile beliefs?

[unblock]

12. a fine point, perhaps, but i'm not suggesting anyone support vile beliefs themselves.

but personally, i think it's important to respect other *people* and their decisions, even if horribly wrong.

i think vile beliefs should absolutely be strong opposed, but it's possible to do so while showing respect to the *people* who might hold those views, at least until you can convince them not to. in most cases, it's an imperative if you want to have any influence at all.

[Merlot]

15. I can only respect someones right to hold an opinion or belief

I don't need to respect the opinion or religious belief its self.

[Voltaire2]

16. It isn't a fine point and I don't agree that people

who hold vile beliefs should always be respected.

There is a clear difference between respecting a person and respecting a belief. So that I s not to me a fine point.

A naive person who holds vile beliefs should not be disrespected for holding those beliefs. On the other hand a person who fully understands the implications of their vile held beliefs is not, in my opinion, automatically deserving of respect.

[Major Nikon]

18. Not that simple

I don’t respect the belief in raping children or mutilating their genitals or lots of other things.

It’s also pretty difficult sometimes to determine when nutty beliefs are truly voluntary or to what extent they are coerced. There should be limits to what is acceptable under the umbrella of beliefs as such things sometimes don’t end well for those caught up in them.

[atreides1]

3. I agree

I'm going to put this on my FB page!

[MineralMan]

6. Thank you! You're welcome to spread it.

[DetlefK]

7. There is a certain aspect about religious belief you don't know:

I once read an article by a journalist who had gone undercover at a conference for fringe theorists: Flat-Earthers, creationists, chemtrail-truthers, ghost-hunters... you name it.

The journalist walked away with an important observation:
Nobody dared to doubt the veracity of somebody else's fringe theory. It was always careful dances how it "might" be true.

Why?

Why are these believers unwilling to criticize each other?

Because there is an unspoken rule to not criticize each other.

Because criticizing each other is gravely impolite. It's a slippery-slope to anarchy and attacking each other.

If we declare flat-earth to be wrong, who will fall victim next? The "time-cubers", the "electric universers", the homeopaths? Who would be the next victim? Maybe YOU?

That's why nobody dares to break this taboo: If you shit-talk another person's fringe theory, you will be shunned by the only people who truly understand you.

You will be exiled from the community you call home.



That's why religious believers hesitate to attack fellow believers.

Because, if you call their belief invalid and cast them out from the community, what will happen if somebody starts attacking your belief?

[Voltaire2]

10. Yup. It is an ad hock conspiracy of silence.

Half the people with their asses in pews on Sunday think it is all a bunch of goofy nonsense. But nobody dares say anything.

[MineralMan]

13. I understand that. I just don't agree with it.

I call for everyone to stand up and speak out against beliefs that are harmful to people. Idiocy breeds more idiocy. Right now, the idiots are in charge of our nation. That's what comes of being silent.

[Lordquinton]

17. I was discussing this just the other day

"respect others beliefs" only ever comes up when it's aimed at liberals. Same with "free speech" arguments. We have to be overly tolerant and cater to the whims of bigots, when, without any sense of irony, beliefs that are inherently intolerant are given a pass, if not actively supported.

No, I will not respect beliefs that don't respect me. And no, I don't have to respect the people who hold those beliefs either.

[MineralMan]

19. Exactly!