Show Me an Atheist Who Believes in a "Divine Presence" and

[MineralMan]

I'll show you someone who is not actually an atheist at all. Such a belief is incompatible with atheism. One DUer has claimed that "Some atheists believe in a divine presence." When asked for the names of "some" atheists who so believe, there was silence.

di·vine1
dəˈvīn/Submit
adjective
1.
of, from, or like God or a god.
"heroes with divine powers"
synonyms: godly, angelic, seraphic, saintly, beatific;

So, there it is. Belief in the "divine" is a belief in the existence of deities. Atheism is the disbelief in deities or the certain belief that no deities exist. The two things are incompatible, by definition.

I challenge anyone to present "some" names of atheists who claim atheism publicly and who have made a statement that they believe in a "divine presence" or any other divine thing. Note: I except belief that the late entertainer, Divine, existed.

[Croney]

1. I'd be surprised if anybody could actually disagree with this.

[MineralMan]

2. There is someone in another thread who does disagree with this.

That person refused to reply to my request for "some" names and some facts about such people. So, I created a new thread to ask the question again, more prominently.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218286842#post29

[Croney]

3. Oh. Well to turn it around, that's like saying

that some theists are atheists. Nonsense.

[MineralMan]

4. Yes, exactly. It is a contradiction in terms.

[marylandblue]

20. Well, there are in fact married bachelors

Those are men who are married to women who don't exist. So there could be some atheists who believe in gods that don't exist.

[MineralMan]

22. I knew a guy whose last name was Batchelor.

He used to say, "I'm the world's only married Batchelor." He said it to everyone he met, actually. He was sort of a strange fellow. The next words out of his mouth usually were, "Do you know anyone who can write a lead sheet. I'm a songwriter."

I said, "Sure. Sing your song for me. I can do a lead sheet for you."

He sang. I wrote. This was back in 1969 or 1970. Turned out he had a mad crush on Evonne Goolagong, and had written a song for her. I gave him the lead sheet a few days later. Apparently, it turned out OK for him, somehow:

[marylandblue]

24. Not a bad song. Congratulations on your hit.

[MineralMan]

52. Not my song.

The guy sang it for me, and I worked out the chord progressions and wrote up a lead sheet for him. Pretty straightforward stuff.

[marylandblue]

53. Not straightforward to me and my limited skill set

You are a man of many talents.

[quickesst]

5. I would venture to say...

.... after thinking about it for 2 minutes, this person decided not to subject their self to any more embarrassment than they already have. I would be surprised if they responded to this thread as well.

[MineralMan]

6. I'm sure you are correct in that assessment.

However, I present the challenge anyhow. I will wait for a response.

[quickesst]

38. I can dig it

Been there myself.

[Ron Obvious]

10. Ah, that one...

I'd say some people are very confused about what atheism actually is and isn't, despite the definition being perfectly straightforward.

We're not angry with God
We don't worship the Devil
We don't just want to "sin" without consequences
We do not believe Gods do not exist (though that would be appear to be the case)
We do not have faith that there is no God

We merely believe the God hypothesis hasn't met its burden of proof and is to be rejected until such time as it does. No more. No less.

Simples.

[Iggo]

36. Oooh, I like that one.

I'm keeping it in a box with, "We have seen no compelling evidence for the existence of a god or gods."

Thank you!

( For my own future reference: We merely believe the God hypothesis hasn't met its burden of proof and is to be rejected until such time as it does. No more. No less. )

[Major Nikon]

23. Same one has yet to explain how theism and deism can be inclusive

So the best defense for posting complete nonsense is to simply pretend it didn’t happen or everyone else is the confused party.

[MineralMan]

26. Yup.

[rurallib]

25. Thanks so much for the link to that thread

there are some great quotes at that askatheist.com website.

When will people learn that some folks simply do not believe in a god or gods and that is it?
Quit trying to make it into a religion or a set of beliefs. It is one lack of belief - that is all.

not having that belief sure frees the mind.

[tblue37]

29. Wasn't it Richard Dawson who said he tells his religious interlocutors that they're atheists, too--

but he just disbelieves in one more god than they do, since all of them disbelieve in whole pantheons of other gods--Greek & Roman gods, Norse gods, etc.

[rurallib]

30. don't know about that one, but there are some darn good quotes

at that askatheists.com link

I haven't been a believer for a long time, but the Republican appropriation of religion for political gain has made me dig a bit deeper into non-belief.
Even at my old age I am learning so much.

[LSFL]

7. I am an athiest

But I believe in Nimrod.... and Bojangles, who is Nimrod"s prophet.

[MineralMan]

8. LOL!

Timesuck!

[LSFL]

11. indeed!

Suck on Brother!

[Lordquinton]

15. Side note

A friend once said that he originally read Bojangles with a soft J and now I can't not say it that way in my head when I see it.

[marylandblue]

9. I think the poster in question was referring to this poll

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/chapter-1-importance-of-religion-and-religious-beliefs/

It says about 5% of atheists are absolutely or fairly certain there is a God or a Universal spirit.

But the question is vague enough to be subject to multiple interpretations. Also, statistically speaking, a small number of the responders to any poll will be various types of unreliable reporters - practical jokers, distracted, poor command of English, mentally ill, drunk, or alien abductees so it's difficult to interpret. Since the atheists make up only 2% of the total respondents, we are probably talking about 3 or 4 confused people out of thousands in a typical poll.

[MineralMan]

12. Anonymous people in a poll are not evidence.

I asked for names of atheists who believe in a "divine presence," since that was what was claimed. I'm still waiting.

[marylandblue]

18. I understand, but this was the best I could do

I don't mind failing the challenge. I don't think you'll get any actual names.

On edit: He didn't say he had names. Just "some" which by definition is at least 1 out of 8 billion people. As they say, "there's one in every crowd."

[LSFL]

19. That someone would claim that atheists believe in a higher power is absurd

It puzzles me why so many believe in gods when organized religions based on those gods seem to be scams to bilk the gullible. But I believe most people do sincerely believe.
What was their point in claiming that? It is confusing.

[MineralMan]

21. Absurd. Yes. A good word for it, indeed.

[LSFL]

13. I agree

And I cracked up at how you slipped alien abductees in there. Nicely done.

[Ron Obvious]

14. I seem to encounter that type in AA frequently.

Believers in "Higher Powers" or Great Universal Spirits (GUS)

It all seems highly contrived to me, and I consider the whole 12 step model to be very thinly-veiled Protestantism. It's rather off-putting to me, but hey, if it works for some people more power to them.

[marylandblue]

16. I have run into those also

AA keeps the definition of "higher power" deliberately vague, and downplays its Christian origins, but it does help some people. Probably more because it provides social support for staying sober than any divine interventions.

[Iggo]

54. It's why I never could work an honest program.

To me, "Fake It To Make It" is lying in recovery, and I just couldn't bring myself to do it. The only way I found to stay clean was to stay honest. No lying about my addiction or my recovery. And it worked.

(There is a sort of informal "half-stepping" that strips the god out of the steps. But that's just the steps. It ain't the program.)

[Ron Obvious]

57. Same here.

No sponsor, no working the steps for me. The doorknob? Group of Drunks? Please! The 12-steps are pre-scientific and not very effective anyway despite what they say. The Atlantic magazine article says it's probably only around 7% effective. I'd say that's accurate.

That said, I've encountered a lot of wonderful, sincere and non-judgemental people in AA, many of whom have become good friends. I'm tolerated as a (non-step-working, unsponsored) heretic, but I can tell that they're not happy with it and that they really believe "the program" is the only possible way to stay sober.

Hell, I'm not even on board with the disease model either, but that's a discussion for another day.

[Lordquinton]

17. What's the margin of error?

about 5%?

[marylandblue]

27. Probably something like that

But I imagine if you framed the question properly and polled only confirmed atheists, you get absolutely 0 hits.

[Lordquinton]

43. Honestly it's kinda like a control question

you can base the veracity of the poll on the number of people who answer that question that way.

[samnsara]

28. maybe they are agnostic but really really really wanna be atheist...

...dont worry, they will get there eventually.

[saidsimplesimon]

31. Was Stephen Hawkings an atheist?

I did a search to get a few quotes supporting he was an atheist and spoke about it many times. There are plenty of them available. It is perhaps presumptuous on my part to drag the universe into a local dispute.

Then I see this cross search for his final words. We are living in a matrix, a hologram, a computer simulation. Confirms my belief system at the moment, awaiting further guidance and open to opinion on the topic.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/02/professor-stephen-hawkings-final-theory-universe-hologram/

Professor Stephen Hawking's final theory: The universe is a hologram

Telegraph Reporters
2 MAY 2018 • 8:19PM

Stephen Hawking has revealed from beyond the grave his final scientific theory - that the universe is a hologram.
....snip
Working with Belgian colleague Professor Thomas Hertog, Prof Hawking extended the weird notion of a holographic reality to explain how the universe came into being from the moment of the Big Bang.

The new theory embraces the strange concept that the universe is like a vast and complex hologram. In other words, 3D reality is an illusion, and that the apparently "solid" world around us - and the dimension of time - is projected from information stored on a flat 2D surface.

[guillaumeb]

32. While I understand that this is your personal opinion and belief,

the fact is that you are not the person who decides. As to your other claim, there was a Pew poll that shows that some atheists do indeed believe differently than do you. Accept that.

For you and others:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/06/01/10-facts-about-atheists/

[marylandblue]

39. The poll is suspect an inaccurate at the level it is trying to measure

See my post 9. And this is true for all polls that are relying on tiny handful that amounts to 5% of 2%.

[guillaumeb]

40. So all such polls are inaccurate?

Pollsters would disagree.

[marylandblue]

41. See my post 9

I think many pollsters would agree that measuring tiny percentages is difficult or impossible. All agree that vaguely worded questions are invalid.

[guillaumeb]

42. My same response applies.

If one rejects a poll that refutes what one already believes, or what one is predisposed to believe, is it possible that the poll is accurate but conflicts with that which one already is certain is correct?

[marylandblue]

45. If a poll's methodology is suspect

the data is partially or completely invalid. In this case It at least partially invalid. Garbage in, garbage.out as they say.

[Voltaire2]

48. Please post the percentage of atheists in that poll

who said they believed in god rather than a universal spirit.

[guillaumeb]

49. I did not conduct the poll, nor did I compile the results.

But an argument could be made that the term universal spirit is a way to refer to the Creator. The American Friends might understand that.

[marylandblue]

50. Universal Spirit could be just about anything

I can imagine that 5% of atheists could believe in a universal spirit that is not a deity and not supernatural. Here is a website discussing such ideas.
http://www.centerforabetterworld.com/universal-spirituality.cfm

http://www.centerforabetterworld.com/SpiritualAtheism/spiritual-atheists.htm

[Mariana]

58. A universal spirit can be just about anything except a god, it seems.

Those respondents say they believe in a god or in a universal spirit, according to the information at the link. One or the other.

[marylandblue]

60. That might make sense from a logic perspective

But grammatically it could be interpreted as a giving an alternative term for God or as providing a sort of definition of God that makes it more vague than the originally word. For example a poll question could be "Do you support Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act?"

Bad way to write a poll question, but it wouldn't be the first badly worded question.

[Major Nikon]

66. Some Native American religions are non-theistic

There's also the idea of Pantheism, which has been around for a few hundred years.

[Voltaire2]

51. But you made a rather specific claim of

belief in a divine entity. You then claimed that this poll provided the evidence to back your claim. Now it appears that you have instead interpreted the results of this data to match your original claim. That seems to be suspiciously self serving.

[guillaumeb]

55. No, I posted a link to a Pew poll.

And because that link contained information about a certain subset of atheists, a few people took great issue with the poll, the methodology, and other issues.

[marylandblue]

61. No you claimed "Some atheists believe in a divine presence"

And cited the poll in support of your claim. Some people responded that the poll does not support your claim, and provided various evidence to support their own claims, including criticism of the poll.

[Major Nikon]

67. You need to go read your source again

They don't identify "a certain subset of atheists". They identify a certain subset of people who identify as atheists, which isn't the same thing.

[Major Nikon]

65. I get you have no use for literacy, but regardless the dictionary is pretty clear on the subject

Had you bothered to actually read your own link, you would have discovered they reported such people as outside the definition for an atheist. So it's rather like someone who makes other contradictory claims, such as they are both a theist and a deist. While anyone can certainly claim to be anything they want, that doesn't mean they are what they claim from a fully literate perspective.

Although the literal definition of “atheist” is “a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods,” according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, 8% of those who call themselves atheists also say they believe in God or a universal spirit. Indeed, 2% say they are “absolutely certain” about the existence of God or a universal spirit. Alternatively, there are many people who fit the dictionary definition of “atheist” but do not call themselves atheists. About three times as many Americans say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit (9%) as say they are atheists (3%).

[JNelson6563]

33. I can't think of any atheists

who believe in any supernatural anything.

[guillaumeb]

35. And?

Other than an expression of your own opinion, what does this say?

[JNelson6563]

44. Um, I thought it was pertinent to the subject under discussion.

I'm pretty sure that's how discussion boards work. Run along and pray for guidance little one.

[guillaumeb]

46. How demonstrative of your approach to dialogue.

[Mariana]

59. There are some. Not many, I would think.

Even the famous "universal spirit" proposed in the poll at Gil's link need not be supernatural. It isn't defined, so it can mean literally anything - except it can't be a god, because the respondents say they believe in one or the other, a god or a universal spirit.

[MineralMan]

70. Well, there are "teen spirit," "school spirit,"

"competitive spirit," and other kinds of "spirit." The word doesn't imply any supreme beings or deities, necessarily. We often have "spirited" discussion here in the Religion Group, too.

I think there's only one person here who conflates "universal spirit" with "divine presence." Those seem to me to be very different concepts, really, but some people put their personal definitions of things above all other definitions, and expect us to automatically agree with them.

I'm not having any, though, thanks.

[guillaumeb]

34. Allow me:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218287109

[Stargleamer]

37. You evidently have never been touched by the magnificent. . .

FSM. An experience one could only characterize as Divine. Heathen!

[Voltaire2]

47. There exists a small subset of atheists who

believe there was a god but it died, so they do not believe that any gods currently exist.

I think these people (a subset of Christian atheism) are not actually atheists in that they believe that over all of time there have been moments when gods have existed, but very narrowly they have an atheist perspective on the current state of the universe.

[guillaumeb]

56. 40 out of 80.

Quantity is not the same as quality, of course, but is does speak to a certain mindset.

[MineralMan]

62. Irrelevant, as always.

But, thanks for keeping track of my posts in this group. It saves time for me.

[Voltaire2]

63. Wow. That is stalkerish.

I guess you must have written something horribly offensive to some imaginary divine presence. Why else would there be this level of obsession with your post counts?

[MineralMan]

64. It is a habit with that person to count the number of OPs written by me

that appear on the first page of posts in this group. Then he compares that with the number of posts. He introduces that into many discussions when he has run out of things to say.

I would never accuse anyone of stalking. That would be a personal attack. I simply think that that poster is acknowledging my prolific contributions to keeping the Religion Group the most active Group on DU. That's how I look at it, anyhow, to avoid suspicion of his motive.

[guillaumeb]

71. You seem confused about what constitutes stalking.

One hopes that you will be enlightened.

[Major Nikon]

72. One hopes that you will be enlightened

Not holding out much hope, though.

Cyberstalking is the use of the Internet or other electronic means to stalk or harass an individual, group, or organization.[1] It may include false accusations, defamation, slander and libel. It may also include monitoring, identity theft, threats, vandalism, solicitation for sex, or gathering information that may be used to threaten, embarrass or harass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberstalking

[Voltaire2]

74. I was being generous.

[MineralMan]

75. But, I'm not feeling threatened, embarrassed or harassed.

Just amused by the phenomenon. That anyone would bother to count the number of posts in a thread list is hilarious, really.

Whenever I see something posted, like "40 out of 80," I begin snickering through my beard. I'm not that interesting. Really. When I see that, I have this picture in my head of a finger pointing at "MineralMan" in the Religion Group thread list and counting. Of course, anything at all could cause such a person to lose count and have to start all over again. It's endlessly amusing, really.

The image in my head is a constant source of pleasurable chuckling.

[guillaumeb]

78. You also apparently have no idea.

I understand.

[Major Nikon]

80. Sure, neither does wiki

Only you seem to be the bearer of the one and only truth.

Of course there is a much simpler explanation.

[Major Nikon]

73. Stalkers often are too stupid to know they are stalking

...or they are too much of an asshole to care.

Not sure which is worse.

[Pope George Ringo II]

68. In most places, this sort of statement would be right there with "water is wet."

Some of the silliness seen on Facebook also calls for this kind of basic explanation to the profoundly ignorant. It doesn't seem to work there, either.

[MineralMan]

69. Yes. It shouldn't be needed, but is.

[Zambero]

76. Some atheists believe in a spiritual realm

And others believe in an afterlife or reincarnation. What is not accepted is the presence of a single or multiple supreme beings.

[MineralMan]

77. Hmm...I've not met any such atheists.

Do you know any? Perhaps you could introduce me.

In any case, that was not my statement. I made reference only to a "Divine presence."

[Zambero]

79. Much has been written about this, but few are aware of it

Here's one synopsis. I can't speak to the absolute validity of this survey result, but suffice to say that not all atheists ascribe to "brain dies / into the void for eternity"

https://www.theskepticsguide.org/one-third-of-atheists-agnostics-believe-in-an-afterlife