Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 06:42 AM Jul 2018

Analysis: Original Leviticus only outlawed incestuous homosexuality. Non-incestuous was okay.

The scholarly article is behind a paywall. $25.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/mohr/hebai/2017/00000006/00000004/art00006

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/opinion/sunday/bible-prohibit-gay-sex.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fopinion

Chapter 18 of Leviticus contains a list of forbidden incestuous acts, followed by prohibitions against sex with a menstruating woman, bestiality and various other sexual acts. In Verse 22, we find its most famous injunction: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 20:13 repeats this law, along with a punishment for those who violate it: “They shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.”)

...

The core of Leviticus 18 is the list of incest laws, each of which includes the memorable phrase “uncover nakedness.” This is typically understood as a euphemism for sexual intercourse, so “you shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister” would mean something like “do not have sex with your father’s sister.”

Most of the incest laws are presented in a straightforward manner, but two are not. The first exception is: “The nakedness of your father and the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness” (emphasis mine). At first, this verse appears to outlaw sex between a man and either of his parents. However, the italicized explanation, or gloss, suggests that the law actually addresses only one parent: the mother. It is difficult to reconcile the two parts of this sentence.

...

What we have here is strong evidence of editorial intervention.


...

But more strikingly, the two exceptional verses are the only ones that address incest between men — all the others involve women. Once the new glosses were added to the text, the prohibitions in Leviticus against incest no longer outlawed any same-sex couplings; only heterosexual pairs were forbidden.

...

Now, apply this principle to Leviticus 18: A law declaring that homosexual incest is prohibited could reasonably be taken to indicate that non-incestuous homosexual intercourse is permitted.

...

It seems that with the later introduction in Leviticus of a law banning all male homosexual intercourse, it became expedient to bring the earlier material up-to-date by doing away with two now-superfluous injunctions against homosexual incest — injunctions that made sense when sex between men was otherwise allowed.
16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Analysis: Original Leviticus only outlawed incestuous homosexuality. Non-incestuous was okay. (Original Post) DetlefK Jul 2018 OP
Leviticus shumidicus lamsmy Jul 2018 #1
I agree. LuvNewcastle Jul 2018 #2
That would make sense. 3Hotdogs Jul 2018 #3
Sharing bathwater Major Nikon Jul 2018 #12
Leviticans rule Cartoonist Jul 2018 #4
I think that scholar has been sitting on the toilet too long. MineralMan Jul 2018 #5
And that's why we should stop analyzing it? DetlefK Jul 2018 #7
No, that's why we should stop following rules in ancient books. MineralMan Jul 2018 #9
What tortured bullshit. Voltaire2 Jul 2018 #6
And what exactly about his conclusion is tortured? DetlefK Jul 2018 #8
The part where he says Leviticus 18:22 applies to incestuous homosexuality alone. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2018 #10
He never said that. You should read the article. DetlefK Jul 2018 #11
He does and he doesn't. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2018 #14
So who expanded it? And when? DetlefK Jul 2018 #15
You mean I can't kill my kids for cursing me or sell them into slavery? Major Nikon Jul 2018 #13
Try to find a right-wing pastor. DetlefK Jul 2018 #16

lamsmy

(155 posts)
1. Leviticus shumidicus
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 07:15 AM
Jul 2018

The bigger question is why anyone would use 2000 year old laws and standards as a baseline for modern morality.
Leviticus was written (and edited) when everyone was basically okay with mob lynchings and chopping body parts off those suspected of theft.

LuvNewcastle

(16,845 posts)
2. I agree.
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 07:30 AM
Jul 2018

Would Bible-thumpers have sex with their moms if it wasn't prohibited in Leviticus? Maybe I don't want to know the answer to that.

3Hotdogs

(12,375 posts)
3. That would make sense.
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 07:32 AM
Jul 2018

Incestuous homosexuality would produce inbred fundamentalists. What other explanation for how they get here?

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
4. Leviticans rule
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 09:12 AM
Jul 2018

There are no Christians. Jesus said, "Love one another." Leviticus says, "Hate these people." Bible thumpers side with Leviticus.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
5. I think that scholar has been sitting on the toilet too long.
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 09:54 AM
Jul 2018

I advise a gentle laxative. Straining is bad for you. And he's certainly straining to come up with that explanation. Leviticus is ancient news. Nobody follows all the rules in that book. Those who say they do are not fun people to be around.

Legalism sucks.

MineralMan

(146,307 posts)
9. No, that's why we should stop following rules in ancient books.
Mon Jul 23, 2018, 09:14 AM
Jul 2018

When they require people to strain to try to figure out what they mean to say, it's time to abandon them altogether.

Voltaire2

(13,031 posts)
6. What tortured bullshit.
Sun Jul 22, 2018, 11:28 AM
Jul 2018

Here is a simpler explanation: the ancient book of dubious morals should be discarded.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
10. The part where he says Leviticus 18:22 applies to incestuous homosexuality alone.
Mon Jul 23, 2018, 09:27 AM
Jul 2018

Because it obviously doesn't. Unless we're to take it the prohibition on boning a menstruating woman, fucking a family member's wife, or giving a child to Molech only applies to incest as well.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
14. He does and he doesn't.
Mon Jul 23, 2018, 11:01 AM
Jul 2018

The point is pretty clear. Prohibition X wasn't in Leviticus version Y. Prohibition X was added later, by an "editor" no less. Prohibition X is, therefore, not original. Not pure. Not intended. Spurious. Mickey Mouse. Not. Fucking. Genuine.

Except it is genuine. Because Leviticus is a code of law, and like any code of law it expanded over time. That is not "editorializing", but lawmaking. We do it all the time. That butt-stuff, blood, and Molech sacrificies were not explicitly mentioned in Leviticus v 1.0 does not in any way imply the ancient Hebrews were actually cool with any of it. For all we know, they just hadn't gotten around to banning it yet because they were busy banning all of teh incests.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
15. So who expanded it? And when?
Mon Jul 23, 2018, 11:21 AM
Jul 2018

The Old Testament was written down first during the Babylonian Exile. Before that, the jewish religion was only an oral tradition propagated through the priests.

IIRC in the story of Joseph somebody is mentioned as riding on a camel. Except there were no camels in Palestine at the time. This is known from archaeological research. However, they were imported centuries later and were indeed found in Palestine during the Babylonian Exile.
This is one of the editorial changes that were made when the oral tradition was written down.

It could very well be that the change in Leviticus was made the same way. Not as an authorized change of the law, but as someone taking too much liberty with the text. ("What our ancestors meant to write was..." )





It is my pet-theory that the original Jews were polytheists, worshiping Jehovah alongside canaanite gods, such as Ashera. I think that Jehovah was the god of war of the Jews, which would explain his choleric and violent character.
(I think it's interesting that the canaanite nations had fertility-gods such as Ashera and Dagon, while Jehovah has no fertility-aspect in jewish religion. He's all manliness and violence.)

Indeed, during the Babylonian Exile the Jews lamented that they had worshiped other gods beside Jehovah and that this had been their downfall.

I think, this theological change, transforming their god of war into the only god worth worshiping, could connect with a banishment of unmanly behavior. Such as homosexuality.
"A real man worships the god of war and despises butt-stuff!"

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Analysis: Original Leviti...