Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

nightwing1240

(1,996 posts)
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:32 PM Feb 2019

Historical proof of what has transpired in atheistic regime

"Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922–1991), there were periods where Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on State interests.[1] Soviet Marxist-Leninism policy consistently advocated the control, suppression, and ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs, and actively encouraged atheism in the Soviet Union.[2] However, most religions were never officially outlawed.[1]

The state advocated the destruction of religion, and it officially pronounced religious beliefs to be superstitious and backward.[3][4] The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] mosques and Buddhist temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers.[6][7] The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.[8][9]"

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

Did you read the last line? :The total number of Christian victims under the Soviet regime has been estimated to range between 12-20 million." The Holocaust was an abomination and horrible but just compare the number of these victims to those.

Notice the language too; "superstitious and backward". Sound familiar?

I'd bet the number of victims would be even higher when considering Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot and others.

I'm not saying Christianity or religion is perfect but neither is atheism.

120 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Historical proof of what has transpired in atheistic regime (Original Post) nightwing1240 Feb 2019 OP
Pretty sure this has been covered before ExciteBike66 Feb 2019 #1
I already covered much of this, but focusing in China as more current. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #11
Your argument was no less nonsensical Major Nikon Feb 2019 #32
OK. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #43
Not this shit again Major Nikon Feb 2019 #2
You know you're on shaky ground when you go-to argument is... Act_of_Reparation Feb 2019 #10
LOL trotsky Feb 2019 #14
No "u"? I think it reads just as well without any, actually... Glorfindel Feb 2019 #28
atheist is a personal belief. there is not an athiest religion or regime. nice try tho nt msongs Feb 2019 #3
The purges were as means of control, not supression of a contradictory belief system. 3Hotdogs Feb 2019 #4
All of these things are about control zipplewrath Feb 2019 #7
Explain that to the millions of dead theists. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #12
Soviet purges also killed atheists. trotsky Feb 2019 #15
Whataboutism? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #17
Yes, and they purged atheists. trotsky Feb 2019 #19
This was about intolerant and violent atheists. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #21
So if they were motivated by atheism, why did they also kill atheists? trotsky Feb 2019 #22
Where did you read that? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #23
"This was about intolerant and violent atheists." trotsky Feb 2019 #25
You made a claim. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #40
I claim that you think atheism motivated them. trotsky Feb 2019 #48
Sorry, your claim is refuted by my actual words. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #50
I am fully willing to admit my error. trotsky Feb 2019 #70
What I said: guillaumeb Feb 2019 #81
"I cannot say what motivated them" trotsky Feb 2019 #83
Well, if I say one thing and you insist that I "really" meant the opposite, guillaumeb Feb 2019 #85
Your posting history makes your beliefs clear to everyone. trotsky Feb 2019 #88
Ah yes, the "everyone" fallacy. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #90
Ah yes, the "small group" fallacy. trotsky Feb 2019 #92
Again, trying to call a small group "everyone". guillaumeb Feb 2019 #96
Your link goes to an OP that does indeed exhibit whataboutism, which is definitely... trotsky Feb 2019 #99
You reveal much. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #100
Indeed I do. trotsky Feb 2019 #103
Congratulations on your openness. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #106
I am not interested in your red herring about my private conversations with you. trotsky Feb 2019 #109
"the quest" guillaumeb Feb 2019 #111
Thanks! trotsky Feb 2019 #113
Even better. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #115
That's your line. trotsky Feb 2019 #116
You outdo yourself. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #117
I'll hand-deliver it to you. trotsky Feb 2019 #118
The ultimate in justice is forgiveness. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #119
Then why do you continue to dehumanize others? trotsky Feb 2019 #120
Oh and LITERALLY everyone can click on each of these links to see your consistent behavior. trotsky Feb 2019 #94
How could they be motivated by atheism? Major Nikon Feb 2019 #33
That was never said. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #41
So they weren't motivated by atheism Major Nikon Feb 2019 #44
Because they are atheists. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #45
You can certainly rule out some things Major Nikon Feb 2019 #46
I described one aspect of Stalin. His atheism. eom guillaumeb Feb 2019 #49
And you keep trying to connect those dots without ever managing to do so Major Nikon Feb 2019 #56
You might not see a connection. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #59
Yeah, but that was never said, right? Major Nikon Feb 2019 #60
Well since he was a Communist and he said his goal was to force collectivation marylandblue Feb 2019 #54
Explain that to the millions of dead atheists Major Nikon Feb 2019 #38
So genocide of indigenous peoples by Christians just gets swept under the rug? MineralMan Feb 2019 #5
Whataboutism? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #13
Again, for pete's sake. MineralMan Feb 2019 #18
Sorry that it needed to be pointed out. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #20
Just as I said, in my edit, which was done while you were posting. MineralMan Feb 2019 #29
I wonder, should we start picking on all his typos? trotsky Feb 2019 #30
But, see, he thinks we already do, because someone laughed at MineralMan Feb 2019 #31
An admission? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #51
Nope. Don't take it literally. MineralMan Feb 2019 #58
Wow, you really do believe in your conspiracy theories. trotsky Feb 2019 #72
And you amaze me at times. eom guillaumeb Feb 2019 #82
You personally insult everyone who disagrees with you every time you post about... trotsky Feb 2019 #84
Interesting use of straw on your part to construct the figure you wish to oppose. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #86
Again, you judge and you dispense eye-for-an-eye justice. trotsky Feb 2019 #87
No, I am noting the obvious. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #91
Projection indeed, gil. trotsky Feb 2019 #93
But do you? eom guillaumeb Feb 2019 #95
I'll let readers be the judge. trotsky Feb 2019 #97
So you refuse to answer the question. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #98
"So you refuse to answer the question." trotsky Feb 2019 #101
Read my last sentence. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #102
Again, irony is dead. trotsky Feb 2019 #105
Hyperbole is never dead in your responses. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #108
OK, let's play this game. trotsky Feb 2019 #110
"directed by another"? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #112
And an interesting evasion to my question. trotsky Feb 2019 #114
Look at all this "straw": trotsky Feb 2019 #89
Laughing at yourself? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #42
Again, Nope. MineralMan Feb 2019 #63
What would the ability to laugh at oneself require? eom guillaumeb Feb 2019 #64
Just a mirror, Guy. Just a mirror. MineralMan Feb 2019 #66
Speaking from experience? guillaumeb Feb 2019 #67
Sure. My father told me, MineralMan Feb 2019 #68
Agreed. guillaumeb Feb 2019 #69
LOL, the OP is an exercise in Whataboutism. Mariana Feb 2019 #24
Bingo. n/t trotsky Feb 2019 #26
The Atheist Atrocities Fallacy - Hitler, Stalin & Pol Pot NeoGreen Feb 2019 #6
Hitler was a Christian. Mariana Feb 2019 #16
Hint... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #27
We don't have to rely on hints. Hitler and Drexler told us the official religion of the Nazi party. Pope George Ringo II Feb 2019 #74
I know, but... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #75
Fair enough. Pope George Ringo II Feb 2019 #76
Peter the Great didn't bring the proletariat into the 18th Century... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #77
Not to worry. Putin and the church will take them back into the 18th Century. Pope George Ringo II Feb 2019 #78
I'm worried they have plans to... NeoGreen Feb 2019 #80
Mostly they used religions playbook Major Nikon Feb 2019 #37
Thank you. Duppers Feb 2019 #39
I don't think anyone ever said atheism was "perfect" either. trotsky Feb 2019 #8
"My faith commands me to..." Major Nikon Feb 2019 #34
Exactly. MineralMan Feb 2019 #35
LOL Act_of_Reparation Feb 2019 #9
None of the atheists I know approve of that behavior or anything like it. Dark n Stormy Knight Feb 2019 #36
+1 n/t happybird Feb 2019 #55
atheists come in all flavors Voltaire2 Feb 2019 #65
Stalin had a mustache. He killed a lot of people without mustaches, and some with. Pope George Ringo II Feb 2019 #47
One of these is not like the other... Snackshack Feb 2019 #52
Your conjecture is deeply flawed. procon Feb 2019 #53
The figure is highly unreliable muriel_volestrangler Feb 2019 #57
Robert Conquest, 1968. Pope George Ringo II Feb 2019 #73
YES, but Catholics and Protestants murdered each other back and forth long before demigoddess Feb 2019 #61
Communism attacked religion, in response ... Bretton Garcia Feb 2019 #62
Some forget Marxist opposition to religion didn't emerge in a vacuum. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2019 #71
Your blaming of Atheism is misguided JPK Feb 2019 #79
For the Love of Dog, people ... 'victims' is not synonymous with 'dead people' ... mr_lebowski Feb 2019 #104
People who continue beating this dead horse RoBear Feb 2019 #107

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
11. I already covered much of this, but focusing in China as more current.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:01 PM
Feb 2019

Funny how removing the theism, by force if necessary, reveals the same tendencies.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
32. Your argument was no less nonsensical
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:57 PM
Feb 2019

As if any of it gets any better that the godless red scare claptrap from the 50’s.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
2. Not this shit again
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:43 PM
Feb 2019

Those who want to claim atheism is no different than any religion conveniently ignore only one of those constitutes a belief system. Nobody does anything on behalf of atheism.

Glorfindel

(9,730 posts)
28. No "u"? I think it reads just as well without any, actually...
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:49 PM
Feb 2019

Yo know yo're on shaky ground when yo go-to argument is...

..."EVERYBODY DOES IT"

Sounds like a cross between Li'l Abner and Snuffy Smith!

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
7. All of these things are about control
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 03:14 PM
Feb 2019

The vast majority of violent conflict that is justified over religious belief is typically actually about power and control, not faith. Religion becomes a convenient definition for tribalism. It can be used as evidence of conformity or obedience. And this can be true whether it is violence BY people identifying by a particular faith, or against the same. Dictatorial societies tend to not like religion, or some religions, because it represents an authority they don't control. In other cases, they can leverage a particular religion that gives them authority, and abuse others that don't.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
17. Whataboutism?
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:11 PM
Feb 2019

And the Soviets also closed churches, and religious institutions, and killed priests.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
19. Yes, and they purged atheists.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:15 PM
Feb 2019

Which proves this wasn't about atheism, despite your desperation to make it that way.

Go ahead, try flinging "whataboutism" again. It's cute and funny to see you squirm.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
21. This was about intolerant and violent atheists.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:19 PM
Feb 2019

And they did not explicitly claim to be motivated by atheism, but the 12-20 million dead were just as dead.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
23. Where did you read that?
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:25 PM
Feb 2019

In my response, which included:

And they did not explicitly claim to be motivated by atheism


Please explain how me saying that they did not make that claim magically becomes a claim by me that they were motivated by atheism.

This should be interesting to read.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
25. "This was about intolerant and violent atheists."
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:30 PM
Feb 2019

What were they motivated by then, gil? Do tell. Go ahead and state for the record what you think they were motivated by.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
40. You made a claim.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 09:28 PM
Feb 2019

And the record refutes your claim.

You can either
A) retract your claim, or,
B) continue with your claim.

I do not care either way.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
48. I claim that you think atheism motivated them.
Fri Feb 8, 2019, 09:38 AM
Feb 2019

Prove me wrong. Tell me what you do think motivated them.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
70. I am fully willing to admit my error.
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 09:46 AM
Feb 2019

If you just state what you think their motivation was.

If you refuse, then my claim remains intact.

Ball's in your court. I bet I know what you'll do though.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
81. What I said:
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 03:45 PM
Feb 2019

21. This was about intolerant and violent atheists.

And they did not explicitly claim to be motivated by atheism, but the 12-20 million dead were just as dead.


I cannot say what motivated them, or in the case of multiple factors, which predominated. But, as I said, and as the original poster said, it is the behavior that we are speaking about, and how that behavior is found among theists and non-theists.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
83. "I cannot say what motivated them"
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:32 AM
Feb 2019

This is 100% bullshit. You JUMP at the chance to post your "good news" stories where you claim people doing the right thing are motivated by religion, but you cannot logically say that either. Your deceit and double standards are glaring, and that's why no one takes you seriously.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
85. Well, if I say one thing and you insist that I "really" meant the opposite,
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:00 PM
Feb 2019

you are correct that no actual dialogue is possible. And again, you equate a tiny group with "no one". Interesting logic on display.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
88. Your posting history makes your beliefs clear to everyone.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:37 PM
Feb 2019

Keep denying - everyone knows the truth.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
90. Ah yes, the "everyone" fallacy.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:59 PM
Feb 2019

Everyone means literally every one. If you had written "everyone in the small group of atheists who post in this group", I would still disagree.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
92. Ah yes, the "small group" fallacy.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:15 PM
Feb 2019

You have no idea what the numbers are, but it's important to your ego to make sure to try and dismiss them, I guess.

Here's the thing, I don't generally see anyone else sticking up for you on these threads. Yes, I know you've claimed to have a large invisible fan club who never comments or recs anything but sends you countless private messages of support. There is no evidence of that at all, however. But there's considerable evidence of multiple people taking you to task for your constant hypocritical behavior.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
96. Again, trying to call a small group "everyone".
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:25 PM
Feb 2019

And, speaking hypothetically, if people feel that this group is hostile to theists, do you think that might inhibit them from posting here?


My feeling is that you see what supports your own narrative.

And the same tactics are evident here as well:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=307601

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
99. Your link goes to an OP that does indeed exhibit whataboutism, which is definitely...
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:28 PM
Feb 2019

one of your favorite tactics. So thanks for illustrating my point.

I'm not interested in exploring why you have a compulsive need to label your critics as a "small group." That's your problem to deal with.

The only thing that IS interesting is that your public fan club appears to be a LOT smaller than this "small group" of detractors.

And that is QUITE interesting.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
103. Indeed I do.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:35 PM
Feb 2019

My links to your posts reveal LOTS of truth. And I understand you hate that.

I also understand that when you've got nothing else, you fall back on vague threats. So Christian of you.

I've told you in PMs that I despise you. I've made no bones about that, because I truly do. You make this place suck. That's just a fact. I've documented dozens, maybe hundreds of times by now, how you do that. So have multiple other people. But you keep carrying on, keep abusing others, keep insulting them, keep judging them, keep smearing them, keep pretending that you are perfect and good and that you are FORCED to do this because you have judged your detractors to be deserving of this treatment because of your perfect sense of justice.

You do you, gil. Keep on being an example of the behavior you want to see - and I'll keep documenting your hypocrisy.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
106. Congratulations on your openness.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:39 PM
Feb 2019

Dozens, hundreds?

Why not claim millions?

As to threats, what threat did you read in my response? I have previously told you that the content your personal messages will always remain private. If you wish to print them in a post, you may do so but I understood that you intended them to be private.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
109. I am not interested in your red herring about my private conversations with you.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:44 PM
Feb 2019

Why you are so obsessed with bringing them up when you lose a discussion, I don't know.

I can only read into it that you are trying to threaten me by making vague references to whatever I have told you. And I've made clear, what I have told you is that I despise you and the corrosive effect you have on this group, all in the cause of your quest to visit vengeance upon the non-believers who drove away your bigoted and assholish friends (who actually got themselves banned with their behavior).

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
113. Thanks!
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:53 PM
Feb 2019

I feel it's quite accurate. You clearly view yourself as a holy crusader against the rude infidels.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
116. That's your line.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:57 PM
Feb 2019

And your behavior.

Let me know when you think I've been punished enough for my sins.

Or is eternal punishment what you're salivating for?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
118. I'll hand-deliver it to you.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:05 PM
Feb 2019

Then you can dispense the ultimate justice on me in person, and you'll finally be happy.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
119. The ultimate in justice is forgiveness.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:17 PM
Feb 2019

But I do not feel you are guilty of anything other than venting in a relatively safe space.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
120. Then why do you continue to dehumanize others?
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 03:52 PM
Feb 2019

Why do you blast them as being in a "choir"? Why do you dehumanize them and de-legitimize their opinions by saying they are mindlessly following a fictional "11th commandment"?

If you have a beef with me pointing out that a person is themselves being condescending when they call someone else condescending, why take it out on multiple people?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
94. Oh and LITERALLY everyone can click on each of these links to see your consistent behavior.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:17 PM
Feb 2019

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
33. How could they be motivated by atheism?
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 06:08 PM
Feb 2019

If I wanted to use atheism as a motivation for anything other than ignoring a belief system how would I do that exactly?

Let’s say I wanted to blow up a bus or assasinate a doctor, where could I find validation and absolution in atheism?

My god says you won’t answer this question and I have the utmost faith it will never happen.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
45. Because they are atheists.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 10:49 PM
Feb 2019

And determining what motivates any particular person is difficult at best.

What motivated Stalin to massacre millions of Russians? Power might have been his goal, but how do we determine what were the deciding factors that motivated him?

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
46. You can certainly rule out some things
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 11:09 PM
Feb 2019

Meanwhile you want to suggest what his motivation was, but when asked how such a thing is possible your answer is you don’t know.

Still your answer does provide other information about your own motivation. Funny how that works.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
60. Yeah, but that was never said, right?
Sat Feb 9, 2019, 06:13 PM
Feb 2019

Good job of talking in circles while never managing to say anything you couldn’t manage to support to begin with.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
54. Well since he was a Communist and he said his goal was to force collectivation
Fri Feb 8, 2019, 09:58 PM
Feb 2019

And he did actually force the collectivization of Russia, I think it's fair to surmise that he was motivated by the Communist theory that collectivization is good.

Just like people who say that forced conversions are good are probably motivated by the belief that forced conversions are good when they force people to convert.

When people say what their motivations are and then proceed to act in accordance with their stated motivations, do you really think it's that difficult to figure out what their motivations are?

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
38. Explain that to the millions of dead atheists
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 07:33 PM
Feb 2019

You do get that your obvious appeal to emotion works both ways, yes?

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
5. So genocide of indigenous peoples by Christians just gets swept under the rug?
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 03:05 PM
Feb 2019

Is that how it works? The Soviet Union was not a good thing. Suppression of people over religion isn't a good thing. People do all sorts of bad things to each other, and no group is immune to doing those things.

Some estimates have over 500 million indigenous people being exterminated by various groups who took over their lands. It happened in the Americas and it happened in Africa. In almost every case, it was Europeans doing, with the blessing of the Church.

I don't sweep the Soviet Union under the rug. I also don't sweep global genocide under that same rug.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
20. Sorry that it needed to be pointed out.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:18 PM
Feb 2019

As to "pointing 4 fingers", I only have 5, and when pointing, the thumb and first point forward. That leaves, if my math is adequate, 3 fingers.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
30. I wonder, should we start picking on all his typos?
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:05 PM
Feb 2019

Seems like he thinks it's fair game for others.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
31. But, see, he thinks we already do, because someone laughed at
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 05:08 PM
Feb 2019

a funny one two weeks ago or something.

We're all out to get him, see. I mean, of course, if we're not all the same person posting simultaneously on multiple devices.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
84. You personally insult everyone who disagrees with you every time you post about...
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 09:34 AM
Feb 2019

the "choir" or your fictional "11th commandment" or any of the other smears you use here. You've been told numerous times by multiple individuals to stop doing that, but you keep on going with the references. Why? Why are you like this? Why do you promote hatred and discord?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304549

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
86. Interesting use of straw on your part to construct the figure you wish to oppose.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:02 PM
Feb 2019

And your own actual posting history here shows the unintentional irony of your accusations.

And in addition, you are now linking to your own previous unsupported accusations as being "proof" of this current unsupported accusation.

A veritable tower of straw.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
87. Again, you judge and you dispense eye-for-an-eye justice.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:36 PM
Feb 2019

You can't help yourself.

I invite anyone interested to compare our posting histories.

The people I've dissed are all gone - banished from DU for homophobia, or terrible behavior.

You keep attacking current DUers, judging everyone.

Keep being the best example of a Christian you can, guillaumeb. You definitely show what hatred, anger, and judgmentalism come from the religion.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
97. I'll let readers be the judge.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:26 PM
Feb 2019

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
98. So you refuse to answer the question.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:27 PM
Feb 2019

Understood.

This Group is very hospitable, as long as the poster is attacking religion.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
101. "So you refuse to answer the question."
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:30 PM
Feb 2019

Irony truly is dead, when YOU of all people post that sentence.


Maybe if you were honest and forthright in answering questions people ask of you, you'd get the answers you scream for.

Be the change you want to see, gil.

Or keep judging and dispensing eye-for-an-eye justice, but don't be surprised when no one does what you demand.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
105. Again, irony is dead.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:38 PM
Feb 2019

Why don't you show with your behavior what you WANT to see?

Why don't you break the cycle?

Everyone I've been a bastard to is gone. Banned for bigotry or general assholishness. You are still judging me based on how I treated those banned former DUers.

Try turning another page. Act differently than them. Stop using group smears like the "choir" meme and your fictional "11th commandment."

I and many others have asked you to do this. But you continue to hate and attack.

Why?

When do you think you will have punished others enough?

Never?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
110. OK, let's play this game.
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:48 PM
Feb 2019

Which of my posts in that thread do you think justify your use of "choir" as a smear against the people in this group who disagree with your statements?

Let's be clear, when you use "choir" you clearly intend it to mean that your detractors are a group being directed by another, and are ordered or otherwise directed into agreeing with each other.

Explain why your insult is a proper response. Identify which of my posts are equally insulting and dehumanizing.

Please proceed.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
89. Look at all this "straw":
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 12:46 PM
Feb 2019
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=306126
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=304761
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=303770
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300714
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=300690
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=297276
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=296123
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295874
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=295838
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294809
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=294479
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292745
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=292021
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=291622
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=289821
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=288084

That's just the first few search results, gil. Anyone star member can search for "choir" or "11th" or "harmony" in your posts and see all the evidence they need to confirm that my statements are correct. You insult and attack and dehumanize and do so all in the belief that you are a good Christian, and that your opponents deserve this treatment because you have judged them to. Attacking, judging, dispensing "eye for an eye" justice.

That's what you do.

That's what being a Christian means to you.

Keep it up. Please. No wonder no one takes you seriously.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
68. Sure. My father told me,
Sun Feb 10, 2019, 08:47 PM
Feb 2019

"Son, learn to laugh at yourself easily. If you dont, others will do it for you."

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
24. LOL, the OP is an exercise in Whataboutism.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 04:29 PM
Feb 2019

"I'm not saying Christianity or religion is perfect but neither is atheism." <-- Whataboutism.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
6. The Atheist Atrocities Fallacy - Hitler, Stalin & Pol Pot
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 03:14 PM
Feb 2019
https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot-in-memory-of-christopher-hitchens/




The Atheist Atrocities Fallacy – Hitler, Stalin & Pol Pot
In Memory of Christopher Hitchens

Religious apologists, particularly those of the Christian variety, are big fans of what I have dubbed, the atheist atrocities fallacy. Christians commonly employ this fallacy to shield their egos from the harsh reality of the brutality of their own religion, by utilizing a most absurd form of the tu quoque (“you too”) fallacy, mingled with numerous other logical fallacies and historical inaccuracies. Despite the fact that the atheist atrocities fallacy has already been thoroughly exposed by Hitchens and other great thinkers, it continues to circulate amongst the desperate believers of a religion in its death throes. Should an atheist present a believer with the crimes committed by the Holy See of the Inquisition(s), the Crusaders and other faith-wielding misanthropes, they will often hear the reply; “Well, what about Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler? They were atheists, and they killed millions!”


Yawn...

Been there, read that...

Worth repeating...
a most absurd form of the tu quoque (“you too”) fallacy, mingled with numerous other logical fallacies and historical inaccuracies.


For my part, I have found it helps to study more than one book.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
74. We don't have to rely on hints. Hitler and Drexler told us the official religion of the Nazi party.
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:04 AM
Feb 2019

24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: common utility precedes individual utility.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/25points.asp

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
75. I know, but...
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:35 AM
Feb 2019

...many (not all) of my posts are not only intended for the benefit of the post-author I am directly responding to, but often to a more general and wider audience.

Post #27 was just such a post.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
76. Fair enough.
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:39 AM
Feb 2019

But it's been my experience that they will try to weasel out of Hitler if you give them any wiggle room at all.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
77. Peter the Great didn't bring the proletariat into the 18th Century...
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:46 AM
Feb 2019

...overnight.

Every little bit helps.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
37. Mostly they used religions playbook
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 06:55 PM
Feb 2019

The belief system was replaced with other philosophies, and the deity was replaced by a cult of personality, neither of which had anything to do with atheism.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
8. I don't think anyone ever said atheism was "perfect" either.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 03:17 PM
Feb 2019

But since it has absolutely nothing to say about how to behave, you can't exactly lay this crime at its feet, either.

Now if atheism had a holy book that all atheists claimed to follow, and there were verses in it that called for the extermination of believers and religion, you MIGHT have an apt comparison here.

But you don't. Thoughts and prayers, buddy.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
34. "My faith commands me to..."
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 06:21 PM
Feb 2019

“My religion teaches...”

“The good book says...”

Said no atheist ever.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,771 posts)
36. None of the atheists I know approve of that behavior or anything like it.
Thu Feb 7, 2019, 06:36 PM
Feb 2019

Personally, I find it annoying that I have to be defined by the fact that I don't believe some unscientific woo just because a lot of other people do. I wish not to be called anything at all in relation to god or no god.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
47. Stalin had a mustache. He killed a lot of people without mustaches, and some with.
Fri Feb 8, 2019, 12:39 AM
Feb 2019

Every bit as much a motivating factor as his lack of religion.

procon

(15,805 posts)
53. Your conjecture is deeply flawed.
Fri Feb 8, 2019, 09:42 PM
Feb 2019

Religious persecution by the state is a political policy of many totalitarian regimes. It is not, as you try to assert, an example of some sort of state sponsored anti-theocracy that can be smugly labeled as atheism and pigionedholed as scary bad.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
57. The figure is highly unreliable
Sat Feb 9, 2019, 10:53 AM
Feb 2019

If we look at the total death toll in the gulags, ignoring whether the victims were Christian or not, let alone whether they were imprisoned because they were Christian, we find:

Prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, estimates of Gulag victims ranged from 2.3 to 17.6 million (see a History of Gulag population estimates section). Post-1991 research by historians utilizing archival materials brought this range down considerably.[75][76] According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953.[12]:1024 However, taking into account the fact that it was common practice to release prisoners who were either suffering from incurable diseases or near death,[77][78] a combined statistics on mortality in the camps and mortality caused by the camps gives a probable figure around 1.6 million.[8][9] In her recent study, Golfo Alexopoulos made an attempt to challenge this consensus figure by encompassing those whose life was shortened due to GULAG conditions.[7] The GULAG mortality estimated in this way yields the figure of 6 million deaths.[79] Historian Orlando Figes and Russian writer Vadim Erlikman have posited similar estimates.[10][80] Alexopoulos estimate, however, is supported by indirect and misinterpreted evidences,[81] and has obvious methodological difficulties.[7] The tentative historical consensus among archival researchers and historians who utilize such data is that of the 18 million people who passed through the gulag from 1930 to 1953, between 1.5 and 1.7 million perished as a result of their detention.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#Death_toll

So 12-20 million appears to be a Cold War claim of the total dead, regardless of why the state persecuted them. The problem may be the "has been estimated" - yes, someone estimated that, but who, when, and with what evidence?

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
73. Robert Conquest, 1968.
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:01 AM
Feb 2019

Honestly, considering how free the Soviets were with data at the time, he was all but pulling the numbers out of his ass, but it's within the realm of possibility. I think Snyder and really all the more recent authors do a better job coming up with data to support an accurate (and lower) number, but that's only reasonable considering they had access to archival sources Conquest wasn't going to get in the middle of the Cold War. And personally I have no problem including Ukrainian cannibalism on Stalin's balance sheet.

Unsurprisingly, Conquest is something of a right-wing darling for having produced the highest estimates. Of course, they think he was far too low: http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/

demigoddess

(6,641 posts)
61. YES, but Catholics and Protestants murdered each other back and forth long before
Sat Feb 9, 2019, 07:09 PM
Feb 2019

the commies came along.

Freedom of religion would work if all religions decided to keep themselves to themselves. Atheism and Theism should just keep out of people's business. I have gone to enough churches to know.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
62. Communism attacked religion, in response ...
Sun Feb 10, 2019, 12:02 PM
Feb 2019

To thousands of years of religious oppression, murders, of dissidents, "heretics."

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
71. Some forget Marxist opposition to religion didn't emerge in a vacuum.
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:31 AM
Feb 2019

Most European countries were not, at the time, secular. Religion and state were seen by the Marxists as inseperable. Revolution against one necessarily entailed revolution against the other. Anyone trying to construe this as inspired by some deep commitment to atheism as a philosophical position is either hopelessly confused or fucking lying.

JPK

(653 posts)
79. Your blaming of Atheism is misguided
Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:59 AM
Feb 2019

Atheism was not the thing that sent people to the Gulags, it was the authoritarian government that did it. It had nothing to do with a belief system. It was a political crack down. Fundamentalist Christians are trying to do the same thing today in our country but in reverse. They want to destroy Atheism because it is a threat to their wealth and political control over others.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
104. For the Love of Dog, people ... 'victims' is not synonymous with 'dead people' ...
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:37 PM
Feb 2019

The article doesn't say 12-20M KILLED, it says 'victims'.

"The Communist Party destroyed churches, synagogues,[5] mosques and Buddhist temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with anti-religious teachings, and it introduced a belief system called "scientific atheism," with its own rituals, promises and proselytizers."

Ergo, ALL the people who fall under all these categories, all those who lost their church/synagogue they attended, everyone harrassed/ridiculed/incarcerated, etc ...

ARE VICTIMS.

Doesn't mean THEY DIED.

RoBear

(1,188 posts)
107. People who continue beating this dead horse
Tue Feb 12, 2019, 02:40 PM
Feb 2019
need to do a little more research relevant to conditions in the early Christian church when they got the first got the upper hand in Rome. Immediately the various sects were doing to each other what had been done to them by the Roman Empire. Including advocating feeding their rivals to the lions.

One place where this is set down well is William Manchester's book A World Lit Only by Fire.

The same book has a very good section revealing the treatment of "Christians" by "Christians" during the reformation.

Time for a little homework???
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Historical proof of what ...