The five biggest misconceptions about secularism

[cbayer]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/06/my-take-the-five-biggest-misconceptions-about-secularism/

October 6th, 2012
10:00 PM ET
My Take: The five biggest misconceptions about secularism
By Jacques Berlinerblau, Special to CNN

Editor’s note: Jacques Berlinerblau is associate professor of Jewish Civilization at Georgetown University. His book, How to Be Secular: A Call to Arms for Religious Freedom has just been released.

As far as the Republicans are concerned, President Barack Obama is secularism’s go-to guy in Washington. Newt Gingrich refers to him as a “secular-socialist.” Mitt Romney charges that his opponent advocates a “secular agenda.” And Rick Santorum frets that Obama is imposing “secular values” on “people of faith.”

The president, however, seems not to have received the whole him-being-a-secularist memo. American secularists have thrown up their hands in frustration over his supersizing of George W. Bush’s Office of Faith-based and Community Initiatives. They roll their eyes at his God talk. As for his recent call for days of “prayer and remembrance” to commemorate 9/11, well, would the late Rev. Jerry Falwell have done it any differently?

After spending years trying to sequence the genome of American secularism, I have arrived at a sobering conclusion: no -ism is as misunderstood as this one. All of which is bad for secularists, secularism and America. Let’s look at some of the biggest misconceptions out there:

1. Secularist: Just another word for atheist: Not true! But that doesn’t mean there is any thing wrong with nonbelievers. Nor does it mean that secularists and atheists don’t share scads of objectives in common (e.g., opposing religious establishment, securing freedom from religion, defending free expression).

more at link

[patrice]

1. Authentic, and hence possibly more valid, knowledge always recognizes its own biases.

To me, this is an essential part of the secularist "spiritual" effort and why I think we should be respectful to all others who seek truth too, especially for how all of us interact with one another's biases.

[dimbear]

2. Toward the end of this excellent article, Professor Berlinerblau suggests secularism

arose out of Christianity. Secularism predates Christianity, so that isn't so.
Otherwise very worth reading.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Indeed. What an odd statement for a professor of history.

American secularism’s roots can be traced to Christian political philosophy (yes, you read that correctly). Its main architects were Protestant thinkers like Martin Luther, Roger Williams, John Locke and Thomas Jefferson.

Claiming Luther as a architect of secularism is weird. Locke might have been a Christian, but his political philosophy is not a "Christian philosophy". I'll give him the Quaker but not Jefferson, who was officially a deist but who famously declared to his friend William Short, "I too am an Epicurean".

[cbayer]

8. Secularism and religion are not mutually exclusive.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. I didn't say they were

I said that claiming e.g. Locke's political philosophy as a Christian political philosophy is a bit weird.

[cbayer]

12. Pardon. I misunderstood.

[rug]

10. His example of Roger Williams is a good one.

I'm not so sure about the others.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Ugh we agree.

[LARED]

3. Interesting, when I point out stuff like this:

That is because the United States is historically and culturally Christian. We rest on Sundays. We close federal offices on Christmas. We put the word “God” on our coinage. Most citizens are believers. The state cannot logically “separate” from them. As Justice William Douglas - no foe of secularism - once remarked, total separation would mandate that, “Municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups.”

Government and religious citizenry are entangled. This doesn’t mean we should endorse those entanglements. Rather, we must recognize separationist secularism as something extraordinarily difficult to achieve.

I'm called a historical revisionist trying to support a backdoor American theocracy.


Good article.

[cbayer]

4. Doesn't the argument come up when someone claims that the US was founded

as a Christian nation?

[LARED]

6. I not sure who that someone is, but

I am pretty careful to draw a distinction between America being founded as a Christian Nation (it was not) and American being a Christian Nation. (it was and still largely is)

[cbayer]

7. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.

I hadn't seen much argument about it being culturally christian, due to the preponderance of christians.

Just like some countries are considered muslim or hindi based on the population statistics.

While there is an increase in diversity of religious affiliation and lack thereof, the majority in the US still claim christianity.

[skepticscott]

9. America is a nation

with a lot of Christians in it. That doesn't make it a Christian Nation any more than it's a Carnivore Nation because most of its citizens are carnivores, and because meat eating is pervasive in our culture, or a Sports Nation because the majority of it's citizens are sports fans, and sports pervade our culture. Etc., etc., etc.

[LARED]

14. I'm trying to picture an America with a t-bone steak embossed on our coinage

Or a holiday celebrating the inventor of the cheeseburger. Perhaps I could imagine a national day off to honor the Yankees. (I like that) Or politicians extolling the virtues of Pork, the other white meat.

Seriously, are you trying to equate eating meat or supporting a favorite sports team with the historical and cultural themes of Christianity that is woven into the fabric of America since before we were a nation? Really? This is possibly the lamest argument you have ever posted.

[trotsky]

15. Here's a question.

Can you identify some of the "cultural themes of Christianity that is (sic) woven into the fabric of America"?

I'll give you one: slavery. Definitely woven into the fabric of this country's history - sadly - via justification in the religion.

But I would like to see where in the history of Christianity we find our core American values like secularism, religious freedom, democracy, etc. Perhaps you can help! Got any bible verses? Quotes from Jesus? How about early church leaders, surely they spoke about those core values that our country was founded upon?

[LARED]

18. Sure

About 20 to 40 percent of Americans attend church every Sunday.

There are somewhere between 300,000 and 400,000 active churches of various denominational in the USA.

Many of American oldest and most well know universities and college were created as divinity schools or built by Christian denominations; Harvard, William and Mary, Princeton to name just a few.

There were two distinct revival periods in American history.

Christian fundamentalism in was born in America.

I could go on for quite a while, but I think it pointless.

Slavery was around long before Christianity was formed. And you are correct in that some cases Christians used religion to support slavery. There was also a vocal group of Christians opposed to slavery and worked diligently to erase it from America.

BTW most Christian denominations that came here in here in precolonial times were rather insistent on secular governments being formed to protect freedom of religion. A pretty important influence wouldn't you say?

[trotsky]

19. Your "20 to 40 percent" is gathered from self-reported stats, and bogus.

The actual number (when you use church stats, not biased self-reporting - referred to as the "halo effect&quot is far less:
http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/139575-7-startling-facts-an-up-close-look-at-church-attendance-in-america.html

Number of churches means something is woven into our national fabric? Tell me about pizza restaurants, then! Or fast food!

Glad you're proud of Christian fundamentalism as a product of this country, but I don't see how those values are part of our national heritage.

I challenged you to name specific "cultural themes" of your religion that are a key part of this country's history. You listed church attendance, some colleges, revival periods, and fundamentalism. What are the Christian cultural themes in those items? What makes attending religious services, education, and religious fervor distinctly or uniquely Christian?

I also challenged you to demonstrate "where in the history of Christianity we find our core American values like secularism, religious freedom, democracy, etc." You declined.

Epic fail.

[LARED]

23. I got the data from here

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/about/who_we_are.html

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#seminary

[trotsky]

27. Your site confirms my figures. Thanks for backing down from your claim.

Got any responses to my other questions? Still waiting on evidence of those traditional Christian values of democracy, secularism, etc.

[trotsky]

31. Hi, still waiting on some answers from you.

I'll quote myself here for you convenience:

But I would like to see where in the history of Christianity we find our core American values like secularism, religious freedom, democracy, etc. Perhaps you can help! Got any bible verses? Quotes from Jesus? How about early church leaders, surely they spoke about those core values that our country was founded upon?

I'm sure you'll have that for me very soon. Thanks!

[trotsky]

33. Uncover any answers yet?

I'd love to hear them. Of course the longer this takes, the more your claim becomes suspect, so it would behoove you to produce something.

[trotsky]

34. Tell ya what, I'll give you the weekend to do some research.

Seems fair that within a week of making a claim you should be able to find something to back it up. Good luck; see ya on Monday!

[trotsky]

35. So, nothing?

Looks like you'll have to drop your oft-repeated yet false claim that the USA is a Christian nation.

Next time you drag that out, I'll point back to this thread where you had absolutely nothing to back it up - and ran away rather than try.

Take care!

[skepticscott]

16. Many things are woven into the fabric of America, including racism and genocide

in the name of religion. But the notion that most Americans were devout and dedicated Christians and regular churchgoers in the colonial and revolutionary periods is simply historical bullshit, promoted by the current slimepit of historical revisionists among the religious right. "In god we trust" was not even put on coins until long after we became a nation, and was not done so consistently for a long time after that (and even then, for reasons having nothing to do with a Christian "heritage" of our nation. Same for putting it on paper money (which didn't come until the 1950's, as a result of anti-comminist paranoia).

And is Xmas in America more a devoutly religious holiday, or an orgy of materialism? Even fundies know it's the latter, because they complain about it every year. Do more people go to church on Thanksgiving, or eat themselves silly? And what gets more TV viewers...the Super Bowl or Xmas service at the National Cathedral? What do millions of Christians do on Sunday to honor the sabbath and keep it holy? Watch football and stock car racing. Do more US Catholics get involved in pools about who the next pope will be, or the NCAA basketball tournament?

Try harder next time...flinging idiotic accusations of lameness doesn't become a position as weak as yours.

[LARED]

17. Fascinating

I say historical and cultural themes of Christianity are woven into the fabric of America since before we were a nation.

And you counter with

the notion that most Americans were devout and dedicated Christians and regular churchgoers in the colonial and revolutionary periods is simply historical bullshit

Well that is not entirely correct, but has a lot of truth, and has just about nothing to do with what I said.

Are you saying what I said is not true? Or just trying to reframe what I said?

[cleanhippie]

21. And you have FAILED to name even a SINGLE "cultural theme of Christianity woven into the fabric"

As trotsky pointed out above, you failed to name even a single one of these "historical and cultural themes of Christianity are woven into the fabric of America."

So here is another opportunity. Please back up your claim.

[LARED]

24. How about this?

A list of 122 everyday phrases that have a biblical origin.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/bible-phrases-sayings.html

[trotsky]

28. Those aren't cultural themes of Christianity. (Your original claim, remember?)

They're variations on the use of language found in an English translation of an old text.

Keep trying. Or admit you've got nothing. Your choice.

[LARED]

40. I believe you need to reacquaint yourself with the definition of culture

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture

1
: cultivation, tillage
2
: the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education
3
: expert care and training <beauty culture>
4
a : enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic training
b : acquaintance with and taste in fine arts, humanities, and broad aspects of science as distinguished from vocational and technical skills
5
a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations
b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture>
c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line>
d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture> <changing the culture of materialism will take time — Peggy O'Mara>
6
: the act or process of cultivating living material (as bacteria or viruses) in prepared nutrient media; also : a product of such cultivation

[trotsky]

41. Congratulations. You posted the definition of a word.

Your original task still remains. Identify these alleged "cultural themes" of your religion that are so central to our country. You've failed so far, and after a couple of weeks came slinking back to post a cut-n-paste. Keep trying.

[LARED]

42. Slinking back?

Please stop projecting your internet stalking into the discussion as if it were my problem. I know this may be shocking to some, but I do not spend everyday on DU. I was traveling and had some computer problems. If it helps you control your stalking urges I will let you know if I will be away in the future. Let me know.

I posted the definition so you might figure out I all ready posted a number of American Christian cultural themes. If they are not to your liking I would categorize that as your problem.


Edit: Correction due to a nitpicking accusation of moving the goal posts

[trotsky]

43. I see now why it took you so long to respond in this thread.

All that backpedaling you did required a lot of time to return to the discussion. And of course you had to try and come up with some personal attacks you could throw at me, since apparently you were aware just how weak your position was.

I will note here only that your claim has changed. You are no longer arguing at these are Christian cultural themes, but merely that they are "related to Christianity." You have thus conceded your original claim, and the discussion is over. Happy to keep this thread in my bookmarks to forever thwart your attempts to rewrite history and make the United States a "Christian nation."

[LARED]

44. I will correct my post to say Christian cultural themes

My mistake.

[trotsky]

45. You are certainly welcome to do so,

but you still haven't substantiated the claim. You have lost.

[LARED]

46. Hey, who am I to prevent your fantasies.

Enjoy.

[trotsky]

47. Says the guy who still thinks the USA is a "Christian nation"

despite providing absolutely no evidence when challenged.

[LARED]

49. Do I need to explain "evidence" to you as well? nt

[trotsky]

50. Nope, you just need to provide it.

So far the best you've come up with is an appeal to common phrases in the English language.

I don't consider that to be evidence that the USA is a Christian nation.

[skepticscott]

51. Could the level of intellectual honesty

among religionists and apologists on this board be any lower or more pathetic? Not to mention their ability to support their claims with actual facts and logical arguments. It's almost not fair to debate them.

[trotsky]

52. LARED can't even get a fellow Christian to step up to the plate and defend his ludicrous claim.

Even they know what a right-wing fallacy it is, to insist on the cultural supremacy of Christianity. LARED loves the myth, though.

[LARED]

53. Well that not true

There are a number of items I point to in the thread.

[trotsky]

54. Yes, and every single one of them has been completely discredited.

You forgot that part. Where are your fellow "progressive" Christians helping you defend this right-wing talking point?

[cleanhippie]

29. Thats strike two! Come on LaRed, certainly you can name even a single one, right?

Will the mighty Casey strike out?


Probably.

[skepticscott]

22. The bottom line is that

it would be just as appropriate, by your thinking, to call this a Racist Nation. Racism and the slavery and genocide that stemmed from it are also "historical and cultural themes woven into the fabric of America since before we were a nation". Without black slavery and the forced displacement and physical and cultural genocide of Native Americans by the colonizers and founders of this nation, America would be nothing like what we know today. It's not hard to argue that they've shaped the country far more than religion ever has.

I'll let you tell us how appropriate you think that is.

And yes, btw, it has a great deal to do with your claim that this is country should be especially considered a "Christian Nation" (as opposed to any of the other possibilities), if Christianity is only one of many "historical and cultural themes" that had no special or overriding importance to the vast majority of Americans at the time before we were a nation.

[LARED]

25. You have a bad habit of projecting a lot of horse pucky into

what I say.

You seem to assume I believe America is exclusively a Christian nation. I never even came close to saying anything like that.

[cleanhippie]

30. The wheels on those goalposts need some oil, they are getting really squeaky!

Perhaps you should just stop moving them.

[skepticscott]

32. The ONLY rationale you've provided

to justify calling America a "Christian Nation" could just as easily be used to justify calling it a Racist Nation. You can't argue that it should be thought of and labeled as the former without acknowledging that it also qualifies as the latter.

And I never attributed the word "exclusively to you. But nice flail.

[AlbertCat]

38. most of its citizens are carnivores,

I don't mean to be too picky, but words have meaning.

Hardly anyone...maybe no one... in America is a carnivore. Carnivores eat ONLY meat. Humans are omnivores, meaning they eat both plants and animals. Vegans are herbivores, I suppose.

Were one a carnivore, one should take a multi-vitamin, otherwise you'll get rickets!

[dimbear]

48. Humans eat animals, vegetables, and minerals. Most common mineral in your diet: salt.

Oh, and occasionally an old copy of that magazine "Omni."

*couldn't resist the temptation.

**depends on what you decide to call water.

[cleanhippie]

20. Maybe it would help by saying that America is a nation of mostly christians.

When one claims America as a "Christian Nation", it implies much, much more than the simple fact that the majority of believers in this country are and have been christian. But you know this.

[hrmjustin]

26. Thanks for the post. It was a great read.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

36. Newt Gingrich refers to him as a “secular-socialist.”

Anyone who refers to Obama as a socialist is either a fool or a liar.

[AlbertCat]

39. a fool or a liar.

Not mutually exclusive!