Religion
Related: About this forumAll souls welcome at church's morning service for atheists
By BILL SHERMAN World Religion Writer
Published: 11/10/2012 2:21 AM
Last Modified: 11/10/2012 7:31 AM
Why would atheists go to church?
Wouldn't that be like someone going to a movie theater, staring at a blank screen for an hour, and then going home?
Not at all, says the Rev. Marlin Lavanhar, who this fall started a special service for non-theists at All Souls Unitarian Church.
"These are people who are not inspired to live their lives a certain way by ideas of God or by Scripture but who have the same human needs for community, compassion, meaning and marking the significant passages of birth, coming of age, marriage and death," he said.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=18&articleid=20121110_18_A15_CUTLIN179644
Marr
(20,317 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)IMO, people crave community. In some places churches provide the primary purpose of providing that community. That this is a success should not be a surprise.
On caveat, though, is that the minister indicates that some become theists after attending for a while. If this has the faintest whiff of proselytization, I would predict that it will eventually be a dismal failure. OTOH, if it stays true to it's stated mission, it could be an opportunity to create some healthy social activism in addition to providing community for those who may not find it elsewhere.
rug
(82,333 posts)The opposite is also true.
Socializing aside, this seems a good place to explore those ideas.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I strive for in this group.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)but since there has yet to be any put forward that stands the empirical test, that idea is rejected as false. But most of us are quite open to hearing about anything new that may have been discovered.
rug
(82,333 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Why would we? Empirical proofs have been wildly successful so far.
Other kinds, not so much.
rug
(82,333 posts)But since you're here, empirical proofs are generally successful for material matters but are inapplicable for nonmaterial matters.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)No. You were talking on a public message board.
And empirical evidence is working astonishingly well with things like emotions and delusions and ideas about gods and such...which happen physically in the brain.
rug
(82,333 posts)If by "we" you are informng me that there is an oraganized group to which you both belong, by all mean, identify it so I can address its agenda.
As to neuroscience, empiricism works to the point that it can prove that "things like emotions and delusions and ideas about gods and such" (which are entirely separate things) are entirely the product of electrical cerebral impulses and nothing more. If it doesn't, the empirical method ends there. Can you post a reference that it does?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Stop playing dense. "We" is not the royal plural. It means "we"...here, on the planet.
And you'll just have to read Pinker's "How the Mind Works" yourself.
rug
(82,333 posts)"It means 'we'...here, on the planet."
Unless you believe everyone on the planet has the same opinion as you on this, you're being disingenuous.
Here's a book for you.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)All Catholics. Lutherans, any one that belongs to the same religion??
Do they all have the same agenda??
rug
(82,333 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)'If by "we" you are informng me that there is an oraganized group to which you both belong, by all mean, identify it so I can address its agenda.' ..... your words .... by the way you really should use spell check and reread your posts
By your words you are saying people that belong to an organization share the same agenda .....
You could have avoided that by asking the agenda of the poster
rug
(82,333 posts)Sorry, I'm swimming away before the suction gets me.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Catch you later. I see an island in the distence.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Sorry. The A threw me.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Or by "nonmaterial matters" did you mean magical, superstitious, supernatural woo-woo that can only be understood by those undemonstrated "other ways of knowing"?
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you mean to say that contemplation of the existence of a god is "magical, superstitious, supernatural woo-woo"?
If you do, you've placed yourself in a locked room of the intellect that I'll gladly leave you in.
If you don't, empiricism is of no use to that contemplation.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Nonsense. The door is open. You may come in to the warm brightly lit garden (not a room) from your wilderness of ancient superstitions any time.
BTW, contemplation is a physical act in the brain. It is a real thing governed by the laws of physics. Not magic.
rug
(82,333 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)There is no lock! Access to the bright garden is free and easy.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)to the idea of theism? In addition to having it waved in our faces and shoved down our throats on a daily basis, a lot of us started out as theists. Theists cannot say the same about atheism.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)How thou dost exaggerate. I'm sure you have suffered at the hands of fundamentalists, a la Carrie. Most of us got to where we are more peacefully. I started out as a baby, knowing nothing of gods or theism. I choose to explore the possibilities of deities as I evolved. Nobody forced anything down my throat and I have never met anyone in real life who claimed such. This is the first place I have ever seen strident fundamentalism and unfortunately, it comes from fellow non-theists, who attempt to cram their negativity down everyone's throat. Shame on you.
"Theists cannot say the same about atheism." Of course they can't, an -ism doesn't shove anything down throats, only certain adherents to that -ism do the shoving, probably because of their own insecurity. I truly feel for you. Obviously, you have been traumatized by your past experiences and have become the mirror image of all that you despise. I hope you find a restful place for your angry soul. Introspection requires no microscope, or other scientific equipment.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)And your dime store psychotherapy. You know nothing about me, and are wrong on every count.
We're done here.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Yet you say " In addition to having it waved in our faces and shoved down our throats on a daily basis, a lot of us started out as theists.
You claim to represent non-theists. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you didn't suffer in that way, why do you say "our faces" and "our throats". Speak for yourself, not those who have truly suffered abuse, because they are real. Piggybacking on their suffering to spread you intolerance is real classy.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)With liberty and fraternity for all, amen.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)I'm so sorry for offending you. It is particularly unwarranted in your case.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)No ulterior motives there, eh?
Sorry to disappoint Rev, but I've been avoiding the pervert with the candy since I was a kid.
That's probably my "fourth-grade concept of God" showing.
This guy is an IDIOT.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)"Lavanhar said the new 8:30 a.m. non-theist service has drawn as many as 280 people and averages between 100 and 200".
No one is forced to go, but all are invited.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I was being kind.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)are interested in. I don't think that makes him either an idiot or an asshole. There is nothing to indicate that he thinks atheists are stupid. Quite the contrary, actually.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)"I say to them, 'Tell me what God you don't believe in, and I'll probably tell you I don't believe in that God either.' "
As they learn more, they sometimes come to a theistic position, he said.
"As they learn more"?
Any idea how many times we've heard that ?
He's not just an asshole, he's an Asshole.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)comment above about proselytizing.
OTOH, I don't see any harm in this. You, may not, but some people who move from theism to atheism feel that they have lost something that has nothing to do with god. Some miss the community and fellowship. If he can provide that in a way that speaks to people, I don't see the harm in it. I certainly don't see how that makes him an asshole.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Inviting someone into your house and insulting their intelligence sucks.
If only we knew about HIS god, HIS god is the One True God and we just need to listen to him and we'll know it's true...blah blah blah.
Like I said, any idea how many times we've heard that?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Anyway, attendance is voluntary and those are some pretty high numbers. If he is really insulting them, I doubt they would return, which they appear to be doing.
You have a nice evening.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Imho, proselytization should be equally offensive to liberal believers.
Peace.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Do you want to expound on why you consider him an "asshole who thinks atheists are stupid"?
Do you also consider his congregation of non believers assholes? Are you an expert in assholery?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Alas, it's too late now.
rug
(82,333 posts)So many things to hate, so little time.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)and obviously all the time in the world to do it.
rug
(82,333 posts)Maybe you're just sublimating.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Long days and nights harvesting the anger of people you hate: priceless.
You got what you wanted.
rug
(82,333 posts)Are you offended again? I wouldn't want to tax your fields of anger.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Okay, moving on...
rug
(82,333 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Sorry, not in the mood.
The players know what's what in this forum.
rug
(82,333 posts)It's here for discussion not playing. Besides, I do not play well.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'm sure he's pretending to be puzzled by our reaction as well.
rug
(82,333 posts)Sorry to break off this lovely exchange but I must finish the invitations before bed.
brooklynite
(94,665 posts)...but why would I want to do it in a Church? And why do I need a Pastor to give me guidance on how to live a compassionate life?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)brooklynite
(94,665 posts)I'm a member of the Boards of three non-profits; each has leadership with specific skills for the needs of the organization. Somehow, the groups function without a "leader" giving us personal moral guidance. As for commemorating key moments in life, I got married without a Church, and commemorated by father's passing without a Church.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)people who want this kind of community might find it.
FWIW, lots of atheists and agnostics attend UU churches and the UU's go out of their way to be inclusive. We actually have a few who post here in that group.
The bottom line, for me at least, is that people ought to be able to do whatever works for them, and the more options available, the better.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)But trust me Rev, there's just as much reason to assume that any grade of god you care to mention exists - none whatsoever.
What type of god don't I believe in? The ones for which there is no evidence or convincing argument. If you don't believe in those kind of gods either, Rev, then you're an atheist too. You'd know that, if you'd learned more.....