Religion
Related: About this forumWhy is quitting the Catholic church spoken of as some type of drastic, hard step?
I say this as a serious question, not as a snark or anything. Because I did it without a second thought and was hardly pained over it. I was raised Catholic, never practiced of my own will, quit identifying as Catholic in high school without even much of a conscious decision. It meant nothing to me. I don't even consider myself a "cultural Catholic" because it wasn't even a big influence on my upbringing. In fact if anything I'd identify as a cultural Lutheran because that's what my dad's side of the family is, it's a bigger part of the culture of my region, and it's the church my family started going to more often anyway once I was in high school in my formative years. As far as I'm concerned my Catholic upbringing is just a bunch of meaningless junk from my childhood. I also am still a Christian and even got baptized again this year because I decided I was going to do this for myself and not because it's what my parents wanted. I just don't understand hearing about how something is such a harsh, painstaking step when the choice for me was far easier than choosing what electives to register for in college.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Religions try to define how you think when you are young, and they try to become the filter through which you think for the rest of your life. The young years are the imprint years, where a person learns to actually conceive of culture. Based on your words like
I don't even consider myself a "cultural Catholic" because it wasn't even a big influence on my upbringing.
it sounds like your Catholicism might not have been the culturally immersive type that many know. For the most part, most Catholics are immersed in it, where the parents and priests and nuns try to make sure that it colors and defines whatever the child thinks of, even the very mirror the child sees themselves in. As they get older, talking about the world outside of the religious bubble becomes like a blind person having to deal with color; they know what it is, and that the rest of the world deals with it, but they cannot. At best, the person learns to work around it, at worst, the person tries to blot everything not religion out of existence. Sadly, the latter is exactly what many churches WANT; it is like cutting the feet off a baby so that they will not wander off.
Part of the reason the fight over Public Schools is so intense is because the Churches know that public schools are where kids have to meet up with other types of people, and learn that yes, there are different ways to look at the world than what Mom, Dad, and the Church taught you. The push for Private schools is NOT Just a money grab, it is an attempt to control what thoughts can be thought.
Now the Catholics are not the only ones in this, all religions do this, and yes, while atheism is not itself a faith, there are those, be they Ayn Rand types, or Maoists, that have no problem making religions out of atheist ingredients. It all depends on how gets the kids, and how intense they try to indoctrinate those kids.
rug
(82,333 posts)This view is held most often by people who also view Catholics in particular, and religionists in general, as emotionally and intellectually stunted. I suppose it is too challenging a thought to consider it to be otherwise.
That said, leaving any association to which one has been attached can be daunting, be it a family, a school, a political party, or a country.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)who was past the age of 12 and still believed in a real Santa Claus that came down the chimney and left presents on Xmas eve, as emotionally and intellectually stunted.
rug
(82,333 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)for the existence of the real Santa Claus than for most things in theology. And yet young children seem to get over that imaginary friend without any help, as long as adults let them.
rug
(82,333 posts)But there is plenty of evidence for Nikolaos of Myra.
Don't let facts cloud your bias.
Let me be the first to wish you a Merry Christmas!
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that cookies and milk get consumed on millions of mantelpieces every Xmas Eve isn't evidence? Not to mention all those songs and stories and figures about him, and the fact that NORAD tracks his sleigh every year?
(waiting to see if you'll get this before you make a fool of yourself)
rug
(82,333 posts)Until the next time you make your stupid claim that Santa Claus, unicorns and God are comparable.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)You made a fool of yourself before you got it?
And where did I say that Santa Claus and God were comparable?
rug
(82,333 posts)who was past the age of 12 and still believed in a real Santa Claus that came down the chimney and left presents on Xmas eve, as emotionally and intellectually stunted.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)I simply stated a fact, one I'm betting you won't be idiotic enough to disagree with. Any projections beyond that simple fact are your own invention, and any claim that this means that god and Santa are comparable amounts to an admission by you that people who believe in god past the age of 12 are emotionally and intellectually stunted. Are you admitting that, ruggie?
I denied comparability between most things in theology (that would include god, in case you weren't aware) and Santa Claus:
There's a lot more evidence for the existence of the real Santa Claus than for most things in theology.
And still waiting for your direct proof of how all those cookie plates and glasses of milk got emptied, ruggie. Or is that too befuddling to you?
rug
(82,333 posts)Well, that persuades me.
Keep digging, scottie. It's immensely amusing.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Is it wrong to compare God to Santa? There are so many similiarities.
That 1) invisible/remote 2) old bearded guy, 3) who supernaturally somehow 4) knows when we are good or bad, and who 5) rewards us accordingly. Both 6) with strong religious associations ("St." Nick). All 7) centered in part around the end of December.
Especially 8) the "White Lie" theory of religion/Christianity suggests that in effect, religion is a deliberate lie, just like the Santa Claus tale. Just like the Santa Claus myth, Christianity is thought to have been designed to get people ("children" John assures us) to behave; by telling them there is an invisible monitor in the sky. Who will reward us if we are good, and punish us if we are bad.
Some religious scholars have long thought that Christianity was a deliberate deception - just like the Santa Claus story. Arguably in fact, the Santa Claus myth, rooted in after all "St." Nick, is simply one of the more obvious variations of Chritianity. And its white lie.
Have a snowy Christmas.
rug
(82,333 posts)Not to mention shallow.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)The "White Lie" theory of Christianity, by the way, is widely respected.
And if you want to try out some more "sophisticted" ideas of high "Theology"? Go ahead. In the end, they prove to be just as silly, as the common view of God as a Santa-like figure.
rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Or the "unmoved mover"?
rug
(82,333 posts)Although, I grant you there is a mention of bridles.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)You claim there is much more to Christianity than its Santa-like aspects. So let's look for something allegedly higher and better.
Plato's discussion is clearly one of the more elevated discussions, theologies, of religion. Including what is thought to be the core of Christianity, eventually; it offers a rational defense of monothesism in effect.
My point will be however that ... even these more "elevated" theologies, well beyond Santa, still fail.
As does even the allegedly highest, post-Santa Christianity; "spiritual" Christianity too.
rug
(82,333 posts)Glad you acknowledge it.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Not the Republic however.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)But "higher" theology, following Plato and Platonism, had problems. And in the end, the very highest theologies are really as simple as belief in Santa Claus.
Consider this rather Platonistic theology of our Christian God, this argument for the existence of the universe, and/or of God: the assertion is that 1) the universe must have had a cause; 2) so what caused it? 3) There cannot be an infinite series of causes; there must be some original, ultimate cause, back there somewhere. If the universe had an ultimate cause or a maker (a problematic assertion in itself), then that cause must not itself have something that make it, in turn. The origin of the universe must have had an "uncaused cause." Something that was itself not caused.
And 4) so it is triumphantly asserted, that the universe must have an ultimate cause. And for various reasons, the most likely candidate would be God; God must be the "uncaused cause," (or "unmoved mover." Thus 5) God exists.
But this elevated theological argument for the existence of God, is simply silly, said Bertrand Russell and others. It ends up begging dozens of relevant questions. Especially: WHERE DID GOD HIMSELF COME FROM (as Bertrand Russell objected). To say that he is "uncaused," is just to make a raw assertion; that he "just is." He just appeared out of nothing. And that appearing needs no explanation, it is asserted. But that is not logic, or a proof, at all; that is only raw, arbitrary, assertion. Or belief in magic; in conjuring. Things appearing out of thin air.
So in the end, this major argument for the origin of the universe and for God, this high theological argument ... is just as simple as the belief in any other magical trick. Or belief in invisible things that appear out of nothing. Or belief in a magical flying man in a red Santa suit.
And in fact, we can go through most of the most elevated theologies, the highest expressions of Christian spirit ... and find that at bottom, none of them ever really rise above the level of belief in Santa. And belief in magic.
rug
(82,333 posts)Chiefly because the challenges to Santa Claus are clearly naturally, foremost of which is how does he fit through a chimney.
Discussion of a god and creation is not that simplistic.
The answer to 1) does the universe have a cause is either yes or no. If there answer is no, then explain it naturally. (We don't know yet is not an answer.) If the answer is yes, then, aside from being consistent within everything we know within nature, then the question is, by what. Which leads us to
2) what caused it? To give an explanation in nature, the only honest answer is, we don't know. (Again, adding "yet" does not make it an answer but a statement of hope, if not faith, in science.) To give an answer outside of nature, i.e., extra- or supernatural answer, it is not unreasonable to consider the notion of a creator. Which does not lead inexorably to
3) there must be an uncaused cause. That is simplistically linear. A more apt inquiry is existence versus nonexistence or, to steal a phrase, being and nothingness. Which again leads us to the notion of a creator, which does not necessarily mean an anthropomorphic god. If you remove yourself from blind linear thinking, you needn't arrive, triumphantly or reluctantly, at 4. Instead you arrive at
5) what are attributes of a creator? Whereupon you have arrived at theology, which has a mixed history of thousands of years.
There is nothing simplistic, childish, deranged or triumphant about the process. Unless, of course, you're simply having an emotional reaction to religion. I can't help you with that.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)To pretend we know, is childish. It is to settle on an arbitrary fantasm, an obviously made-up story, "deus ex machina," as if it answered the question.
My objection to religion is not out of infantilism; it is an objection to infantilism. Religion tells itself cute stories, and pretends to itself that those cute stories, are the answer. An invisible guy in the sky, must have made it.
Why not grow up. And be truly humble and honest at last. And when somebody asks us what made the universe, just say this: "we don't know."
(Sartre and Heidegger by the way, shifted the topic from "first causes," to "being"; but Sartre was an atheist, and Heidegger was by some accounts, a Nazi. I'm not convinced that unceremoniously dumping Plato and More, for Sartre and Heidegger, is going to help the case for religion very much.)
rug
(82,333 posts)You have a choice. You can say we don't know and will never know which is in essence no differwent from the opposite dead end, namely God caused it. That, or have a hope, itself irrational, that one day we will know.
Or, you can consider the alternative and probe the notion of a creative process.
Really, the first choice has no more logic or intellectual high ground than the second does.
It certainly is not enough to support smug, tedious snark.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)the choice isn't that we don't know, and NEVER will know, that's conflating two separate arguments, just for the sole purpose of calling it irrational. That is dishonest, frankly I'm surprised you don't go to your priest every day for confession for the amount of lies you spew on this board.
The choice is between pretending to know, and not knowing. That's it, period, no additions please.
rug
(82,333 posts)And before you accuse people of lying and make personal attacks reeking of bigotry, read the ToS. That you're a failed Catholic is your problem. Keep it to yourself.
Now, you have a choice of trying to have a reasoned discussion or we can talk about each other. Pick one.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)is it really so difficult for you to even attempt to be honest in any argument?
rug
(82,333 posts)There remains two choices.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Continuing the Aristotelian quest for God as first cause, Aquinas began to suggest that the root concept for everything, is "being." The reasoning here was that for anything to be anything, for the universe to exist, it has to BE. So philosophers focused on "Being" as the root, the "cause" of everything.
But like most theologies, Aquinas' high theology was wrong. Confusing being analytically prior, with being causally or actually prior. Many here seemed to imagine a sort of giant amorphous "Being" floating in space, prior to the existence of the physical universe. But critics now say that you can't have being, without something existing. Being is a predicate of existing things; not the other way around. How could anthing have "being," how could there be being, if there were no things existing? If there were no things that "are"?
There cannot be "being," until something IS. Until that, it has no being.
For millennia therefore, thousands of philosophers have looked for a metaphysical origin to the universe; looking for "first causes" and "being." But recently - in the time of Russell, and Wittgenstein, and then Quine - philosophy began to suggest that essentially all metaphysics ("before physics" was just following confusing, random, misleading implications of words. Or there was a very subjective element to metaphysics.
Everyone was allegedly looking for the origin of the universe. But without success. Especially the search for a "first cause" seemed to just propose one false origin after another; to just arbitrarily settle on our own subjective favorite thing, or methodology, as our cause, or our "given." Because of this subjectivity, eventually recent philosophers like Richard Rorty began to speak explicitly of just giving up on Metaphysics. Today Philosophy is largely dominated by this school, now called "Analytic Philosophy." Which regards the search for ultimate origins or Metaphysics, as useless speculation.
The chief criticism of Metaphysics, and metaphysical things like "being," has been that our knowledge on first things is so slim, that we all (including all Philosophers and theologians) just end up just projecting our own favorite biases or hobby horses, our own methodological roots, as "first cause" or origin of the universe. We want "Reason," or "God," or "Being," our alleged methodological "given," as the origin. But finally Rorty said, c. 1970, the notion that we can be allowed such an arbitrary "given" is just to give in to prejudices and subjective desire; Rorty criticizing the "myth of the given."
In the end, we all tend to just "give" ourselves some favorite thing, as the origin of the universe. So that Metaphysics, the search for origins, end up being always just a childish giving in, to our subjective bias and desires. Our choice of "first cause" always tend to be just a sly gift to our biases; an undeserved holiday from responsible thinking.
Or in other words? We give ourselves an indulgent ... Christmas present. Giving ourselves the fatal luxury of ceasing to think critically. And just allowing our major and heartfelt wishes and prejudices, to stand as the origin of everything. Imagining the universe as a sort of generous, indulgent ...
... Santa Claus, of course. Giving us "givens," as undeserved presents.
In the opinion of many philosophers today, the Analytic school, it is not the ceasing of metaphysical investigations (and the encouragement of natural investigation) that is self-indulgent; it was Metaphysics itself that was the problem. It was the interminable positing our own favorite biases and likes (our "Father," our "Mother," etc.), as first cause, as God, that was fatally self-indulgent.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)And nothing works to date.
So the best answer to date, to the question of what made the universe, is just to say that "we don't know."
No doubt we should keep looking. But religious answers from the past don't hold up. And worse, many religious persons especially, are not looking for anything better. They already have, they think, one simple, all-purpose answer for everything: "God did it." Though finally to grant THAT as an answer, requires a great deal of charity, or lack of critical acumen.
Better to advance no answer at all. For the time being.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)That's Aristotle, not Plato.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Y0u can see roots of the "uncaused cause" in say, Plato's Parmenides dialogue.
Response to rug (Reply #20)
Post removed
rug
(82,333 posts)You trot out the tedious unoriginal comparison to Sanya Claus, get called on its stupidity, and end up attempting to say it was wry. And of course you must do that wrapped in the language of juvenile insult.
Overall, this is one of your more uncomfortably unpleasant performances.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)I can see you still don't get the point. Not necessarily because you're emotionally or intellectually stunted, but regardless, you're tiresome, and pathetic.
Rounds are over.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)He gave us the earth as a Christmas gift. We unwrapped it. Played with it for awhile and then broke it.
rox63
(9,464 posts)I also started questioning the Church in high school. But family pressure and the life-long brainwashing was difficult to overcome. It was an essential part of my reality while growing up. Although I've not been an active Catholic for decades now, I still sometimes find myself thinking about what the Catholic view would be about things.
Dorian Gray
(13,535 posts)so of course it was easy to quit.
Other people identify as Catholic and are raised as cultural Catholics. So it's a part of their identity.
Still others truly believe the theology. If that's the case, it's really difficult to leave the institution.
And some people really want to change the organization from within.
Every person is different and bc something was so easy for you doesn't mean that's the case for others.
I know people who can choose to eat well and start exercising and do it. While others struggle for
years and years with that. They are not the same thing at all. Every person's life experience is different.
How we are raised, our brain chemistry, our psychology, etc all affect these things.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)I were getting divorced.
His words were: "if you can't keep you vows of holy matrimony, how can I trust you to raise this child as a Catholic?"
I thought about original sin, how my baby would go to purgatory if he died unbaptised... I looked a my child and suddenly realized original sin was a crock. There was no sin in that infant. I quit the church and never looked back.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in getting another drone for the RCC collective than in the best interests of the child.
ejpoeta
(8,933 posts)maybe I was wrong. hmm. none of mine have been baptized. That will be their own choice to make. I hope they choose NOT to. my oldest (14) is into greek mythology and claims that as her religion.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Traditionally the Catholic Church has taught that the unbaptized baby's soul goes into a state of limbo. In this state, the baby's soul enjoys happiness and contentment for eternity, but lacks the perfect joy of being with God. In other words, it is excluded from Heaven, but does not suffer the ravages of Hell or Purgatory, either.
That stance has now changed. In a report by the Associated Press, Rev. Luis Ladaria, the secretary general of the International Theological Commission, is quoted as saying, "We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies." (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_limbo)
This new stance of the Church means that perhaps these babies do go to heaven. However, "perhaps" is the important word to note. The Church is not saying that they positively go to heaven, but that there is a possibility that they do enjoy eternal salvation after all.
CanonRay
(14,146 posts)They kicked me out of Catechism class. Sister Jezewina didn't like my questions.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)be the only answer you need here.
Some people's lives are deeply intertwined with their local parish and the community they have established there. They would lose much more than just their membership, sometimes even losing their families.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)One of the biggest sources of new members in the Episcopal Church is former Catholics, as the liturgy is similar, but with no Pope and no guilt. Much different social stances, too.
This guy is a former Catholic seminarian, and is a lay preacher in our church once a month. He is still not over being a Catholic church, and is trying with all his will to turn our church into Catholic lite.
Another member is a woman who left the Catholic church over a divorce and remarriage. She is still extraordinarily uncomfortable over anyone who has a divorce, and is angry at the rector for being divorced and being remarried, despite the fact that she shares that distinction. It is just ingrained in her.
Freddie
(9,282 posts)Including my husband. He says the liturgy is quite similar and feels comfortable there. Some of his relatives weren't happy about it but they got over it. After the priest child molesting news got out (one was a teacher he had in HS) he said he'd be an ex-Catholic regardless.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)I didn't choose to be Catholic, I want nothing to do with it, it has had no major influence on my worldview or outlook, I see nothing tying me to any type of Catholic identity.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I never felt that I belonged, so had no problems "quitting."
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)For the record I went to a Catholic school two, but only for first and second grade. I went to a public school from third grade to college, so it didn't have much of a lasting effect on me.
pinto
(106,886 posts)As was our town and our state, for the most part. Massachusetts in the 60's and 70's.
There were differences among us. Catholicism is as disjointed and tribal as any centuries old religious structure. I'd go to the Irish church. My neighbor would go to the Lebanese church. My buddy up the street would go to the Italian church.
Yet the background for us all was coherent. It was as much a part of our culture as anything else, religious or otherwise. In that sense we were cultural Catholics.
But to get to your question, I don't see quitting the Catholic church as the point for me. I don't even see it as quitting. It was never a game that I would choose to quit or not.
I appreciate what it taught me and relish that community for what it's worth, though I move on.
rox63
(9,464 posts)My family went to the French Catholic church around the corner from my house, and my brother and I went to the associated parish school. My father went to the same parish school when he was growing up. Other families went to the Irish church or the Italian church or the Portuguese church, depending on where they lived and their family background. It more than religious identity. It was wrapped up in ethnic, neighborhood and community identity.
Each of the parishes would have some services in the native language of the majority of their ethnic membership. This was a comfort especially to the older members, who were usually first or second generation immigrants. When I was growing up, I lived in a area with a lot of families of French-Canadian background. Even if they could speak English, a lot of the elders in the neighborhood were more comfortable speaking French.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)the nuns. They were so strick and now looking back we were brainwashed I guess. I remember back in 1963 when I was in high school for a year in PA we went to public school. Every Friday back then the catholic kids had to go to the catholic school that was about 2 blocks away to attend religion classes. The protestant kids had to stay there at the high school. It was weird I never did that in any other place. Then we moved to Baltimore and that was the time Madeline O'Hare started her stuff. It is very hard to break what you grew up with. I still have the faith but don't need to go to an organized church. I like the traditions but things are not as they should be.
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)was a feeling of being struck from up above for about 6 months when I told people I quit. I too had experiences with nuns, youch! St. Bonaventure (sp) was where I went to school.
Looking back I feel that unless you make the choice to become a Catholic after you become an adult is very different from being brought up from birth to BE a Catholic. I never had a "choice" when I was young & I simply believed because of a certain type of brainwashing of a sort.
I can clearly recall going to catechism and asking questions and getting into trouble. The priests & nuns told us we only had to believe because it was so. Perhaps I knew early on that this religion wasn't for me. Who knows?
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)I can't support a church that gets involved in politics. I believe in separation of church and state.
Plantaganet
(241 posts)...in the same way that ripping off a band aid is a hard step. Briefly painful and then a eureka moment: "Oh, that wasn't so bad!" I speak from experience.
But the excuse is useful for people who agree with Catholic doctrine but want to appear mainstream so as to blend in more readily with an increasingly secular and sensible culture. They're changing things from within. Mmmm, yeah.
jamtoday
(110 posts)applied to be taken off the register then it's too late. The act of formal defection 'actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica', is no longer possible. Your wish to be taken off the register will be noted but they consider Baptism as a holy communion and you will continue to be considered a Catholic. This formal defection was especially necessary in Germany for instance to avoid the mandatory tax on one's wages being taken at source by the Government. The Catholic church has reacted bitterly to this perceived loss of income and are threatening the lay Catholics with all the usual mumbo-jumbo to try scare people into continuing to pay the leeches.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-court-warns-catholics-pay-church-tax-or-face-expulsion-8180811.html
"A German court gave its backing yesterday to a decree by the country's Catholic bishops declaring that believers who refused to pay an eight per cent church tax could not be considered Catholic and would automatically lose the right to receive Holy Communion and a religious burial."
So these are the sort of things that can make it distressing for people to leave the Catholic church ie: the church's thuggish behaviour and threats at people wishing to exercise freedom of conscience and their insistence that the individual pays for their own mental and emotional slavery.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)If the Catholic Church wants to keeps meaningless records of every person they've ever baptized and who won't ever have anything to do with them ever again, fine, they can waste their time and space. They don't even know where I live now, I've never registered with any of their parishes and my family doesn't have me listed anymore (assuming they even have membership in any parish at all.) They can't enforce shit on me and I have no reason to care what they think.
The German thing is also an idle threat, since I haven't taken Catholic communion in well over a decade and have no desire for a Catholic funeral I'd have no problems not paying the tax if I lived there. I doubt any Germans who do care about those things are withdrawing from the tax, making it just a temper tantrum by them basically. Really, this type of behavior just makes the decision to leave for me all the easier.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)been to a church service in years.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)once I reached adulthood, and my parents revealed that the only reason I went to PSR was to mollify my mom's mom, well, it kinda all fell apart as a belief system for me. Already had doubts, then I went from Catholic to liberal Christian, then paganism, then therapeutic deism and finally just atheism.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)basically covers the "spiritual but not religious" folks who still believe in some type of god, but generally don't think of it as a "hands on" type of deity.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)in that type of stuff, at least, from my own personal experience, at the time I didn't call it that, but it was more therapeutic than truthful.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)religion can play in the lives of some people.
I think it has been of benefit in that way for some populations that were suffering unspeakable treatment at the hands of others.
Truthful or not is a question I don't expect to ever be answered. However, therapeutic I think can be.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)frankly, at that point, its fooling yourself into believing something you don't know, a temporary emotional balm for a reality you can't face, until you do, and realize it isn't so bad. People fear the unknown, its genetic, that's why we find it so easy to believe a sweet lie rather than the truth that we don't know, but I found I couldn't do that anymore, and I'm actually happier because of it, because the fear of the unknown itself is now gone.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)is any different than convincing yourself that the unknowable is true.
But I do think that both positions can be comforting and therapeutic.
So, in the end, it's whatever floats your boat.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Its pretending to have an answer, one way or another, for a question that has no answer.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)To pretend to know, and make claims, about the unknowable?
Are you saying that basically your field is invalid?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)When their is little or no distinction between denomination and theology, the step *is* drastic. I say this as a former Christian, now more on the anti-theist side of the scale. It took many years of pondering the chasm of disbelief before taking the final, logical leap.
I find far less cognitive dissonance on this side of the divide, but that doesn't make the actual step any less drastic. It isn't painless to discard a belief system indoctrinated from birth.
Warpy
(111,473 posts)dressed up like penguins. A lot of people were and if they've grown up believers, that early scarring makes quitting the only true path out of hell A Very Big Deal.
It's why I suggest the Episcopalians for any believer friends who are teetering on the edge. It's the same church, minus the archaic Roman power structure, burden of infallibility, and sheer stupidity that makes them cling to alchemy rather than science (especially medical science) as a matter of faith.
Most believer friends who have made the transition have pronounced it an easy one. However, they've been at the point of no return with Rome by the time they got there.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)is quite a proposition.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)I learned very young to just coast through the church/school propaganda machine with a nod and a smile. By the time I reached High School I was autonomous enough to just drop the whole thing. I feel no sense of loss at all. I don't honestly understand the conflict. You either have "faith" or you do not.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)but it took me longer to move to actual atheism. I was unintentionally misled by well-meaning friends into Christian fundamentalism for a while until I actually started reading the Bible, then it all starting coming apart.
It was "Satan" who went first, since his existence made no sense in a universe with a Christian "God".
Then "God" went, because when you really read the Bible you can come to only one conclusion: If he exists, he is a dangerous sociopath and a sadist and you really so NOT want to hang with his homeys.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)that the whole thing sounded fishy. The more people told me about how great it was the more suspicious I became! As soon as I was old enough to get a copy of the "Golden Bough" I knew I was on to the scam!
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)My parents haD our whole family say the rosary every night before we went to bed. Even had both of my children baptized and took them to church for a while.
I was taught that the Catholic religion was the ONLY true religion and I guess I believed it. But there came a time when I just said I no longer believed the dogma of what was being taught! I just stopped going to church & have never looked back!
However, if one wants to truly believe ANY religion I simply feel it's their choice. Still it doesn't mean that I have some very strong feelings about how religion has affected far too many people when it comes to politics & religion! Am I an atheist, not sure, but agnostic at least!
JMHO
Pendrench
(1,360 posts)I imagine there are many reason why such a step would be hard for someone who is a practicing Catholic (like myself) to leave the church - and those reasons have been mentioned in this thread - but I imagine that another reason it might be difficult to leave the church is the belief that the Host is the true Body of Christ - and therefore they would not want to lose that "communion" with Christ if they left.
But that's just a guess on my part.
Very interesting question - thanks for posting it!
Tim
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)even if you do not give financially.
I have a hard time believing that any God would want his followers to be a part of, or give legitimacy to an organization which gives succor and protection to child rapists.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)of those who might otherwise want to leave.
When your ancestors are buried in a location where you have visited many times, and you still have family members who are Catholic, it's difficult to give that up. It's easier to just keep your mouth shut and not make a big issue over quiting the Church.
It is also a cultural experience. When you are young, you can notice that Catholic girls with green eyes and red hair are simply more attractive than others. When you are in your 70's, the same ones that you knew as little Catholic girls are older but still attractive. If they want to be practicing Catholics, why raise any issue over quitting the Church.
Fortunately, when I was five, my father taught me how to keep my thoughts to myself when in Church. I've made up for that in other ways.
No Vested Interest
(5,167 posts)I've read on this OP in the week or more it's been running.