Nothing Fails Like Prayer

[cleanhippie]

The claim that God answers prayer is contrary to reality. Outside of the obvious, glaring reality that there is no God, coincidence plays a major role in the believer’s lack of understanding about how the world works. Let’s take the scenario of someone locking themselves out of their apartment. They utter a prayer for help and a few minutes later the Superintendent shows up. Normally, this would be viewed as a coincidence. But according to the praying Christian, it was the hand of God that made the Super show up “just at that moment” to unlock their door.”

Consider, though, that in third-world countries there are faithful believers who are praying to God because they’re starving to death or are succumbing to diseases that can be cured with modern medicine that isn't available to them for a variety of reasons, usually associated with money. Speaking of money, there are hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their jobs and are praying for God to give them another one, and to provide for their sustenance and health while they are unemployed.

It would seem that God is behaving like quite the jerk by ignoring all those sick, starving children and allowing entire families to be put out on the street, but chooses to send an apartment manager to unlock the door of an inconvenienced resident.

--snip--

When a group of people prays about fixing up an old woman’s dilapidated house, and then people show up with hammers, it's not an act of their God. It’s just a group of well-meaning people who made a choice to help out someone in need. Nothing wrong with that, except for the whole “God led me to do it” part. Chances are pretty good that if the group were ardent atheists, they’d have done it anyhow.

As Steven Weinberg has so eloquently stated,

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.”

http://www.goddiscussion.com/104770/nothing-fails-like-prayer-2/

[mr blur]

1. On a relate note,

[Flabbergasted]

2. I have mixed thoughts about prayer. I certainly don't agree completely with

"prayer is a complete failure", but I'm not so sure about prayer being answered by an all powerful being either. I'd chalk it up to thought has an effect. We often think that our thoughts reside in a vacuum. They do not. A thought that is attached to a real need, that another can provide, is the basis for understanding why prayer seems to work.

On another note I have not done an exhaustive study of miracles but such things do occur and seem to lie outside of this paradigm. Does this indicate that there is a god? Some say yes; others will just completely reject the notion of a miracle completely. To me it remains unexplained.

[cleanhippie]

4. "I have not done an exhaustive study of miracles but such things do occur"

Really? Like what?

[Flabbergasted]

6. Life is a miracle. Nt

[cleanhippie]

7. Well yeah, except that it's not.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that no actual miracle will be presented to support the claim that miracles do, I'm fact, happen.

It would be quite easy to show my assumption wrong. Lets see if it can be done.

[mike_c]

32. I'm a biologist and have spent my career studying life....

I haven't found any miracles yet. Perhaps you could describe one. Just one?

[cleanhippie]

33. I think it is clear that you will not provide any examples of a "miracle."

Thanks for playing.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Templeton Foundation intercessionary prayer study. STEP.

Feel free to google it yourself. This was designed to be an unimpeachable scientific study of intercessionary prayer, funded by a pro-religion foundation and conducted at Harvard. It found that there was at best zero benefit.

[Phillip McCleod]

40. i thought it found that there was negative consequences

when the person being prayed for knew the praying was going on

[Ian David]

26. Just because you can't explain something, doesn't mean it's unexplainable. n/t

[Sekhmets Daughter]

3. Good morning...

When I was 13 or 14 years old and still being dragged to Wednesday night prayer meetings, I learned a valuable lesson about prayer. The husband of one of the church members was diagnosed with acute leukemia. The couple had 2 children, 1 a year younger than I and one 2 years older. I was more than happy to pray for their father to be healed. But, that was not what the church was praying for.... Nope, they were praying that he would "accept Jesus into his heart as his Lord and Savior" I was totally baffled until I realized that they had little to no real faith in the healing power of prayer and complete faith in the fact that a dying man will grasp at straws. Sure enough, when the church bulletin announced his passing it was with the joyous report that his soul had been saved.

Ancient cultures prayed to stones, trees or stone gods and goddesses etc. because prayer offers comfort and refocuses the mind on the positive. However, there is no such thing as answered prayer.

[Speck Tater]

5. I am an atheist, but I disagree with one thing he said...

"Outside of the obvious, glaring reality that there is no God,..."

I agree that there most probably is no such thing as a god, but there is no proof one way or the other. To call something unprovable a "glaring, obvious reality" is to step outside the legitimate bounds of science and to enter the realm of speculation.

While I like to believe that my leap of faith that there is no god has a great deal more evidential support than the opposite leap of faith that there is a god, there's no way anyone can justify calling it a fact that there is no god.

[AlbertCat]

10. So you think there's a teapot orbiting the sun .... (I know you don't)

I think it IS glaringly obvious that it's simply not worth worrying about. Do we really have to preface it every time with "Though we cannot be 100% sure...."?

[Speck Tater]

11. Every teapot on Earth is orbiting the sun!

And beside, what does "god" mean, anyway?

"god" might mean something wholly non-physical like "friendliness", or "generosity", or "Christmas Spirit", in which case "god" most certainly does "exist". But of course that depends on how we define "exist" too. So we really can't begin to discuss the issue until we agree on our definitions. A feeling of certainty is not a justification for sloppy logic.

(I'm not trying to be obnoxious, mind you. It just comes naturally to me. )

[AlbertCat]

14. And beside, what does "god" mean, anyway?

Well, I think the definition of a "god" is pretty clear.

"god" might mean something wholly non-physical like "friendliness", or "generosity", or "Christmas Spirit",

Except it doesn't.

[cordelia]

16. So. Define "god" then.

[AlbertCat]

18. So. Define "god" then.

God [god]
noun
1.
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2.
the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3.
( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4.
( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5.
Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.

[Gore1FL]

37. The laws of Physics encompass #1 of your definition.

This is webster's definition:

1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
4
: a powerful ruler

friendliness", or "generosity", or "Christmas Spirit" are covered in 3.

[Speck Tater]

17. To me, "God" means...

...An emergent property of connected consciousness. As such, "god" is created by the presence of humans, and ceases to exist when humans cease to exist. Clearly "god" did not create the universe, but was created by the universe.

You may think that the definition of "god" is pretty clear, but try to get a Christian and a Hindu to agree with what you think the pretty clear definition is. The fact is, everybody who believes in god has their own definition, and everybody who does not believe in god has their own definition.

I use the term "atheist" as shorthand for "I believe that the Christian version of god certainly does not exist. It's just so far beyond absurd as to boggle the mind."

But that doesn't mean that I could not find some personal definition of "god" in which I could believe, including the possibility of some Star-Trekish disembodied intelligence which does not meet the definition of "creator god", but is clearly trans-human.

I bring this up not because I want to convince anybody of anything, but because I enjoy speculating upon such far out possibilities. And in the final analysis, I have no idea what can or cannot exist in the vastness of the cosmos (or in alternate dimensions or parallel universes, or sub-Planck-length universes, or... etc.)

[AlbertCat]

19. To me, "God" means...

That's all very sweet, but you don't get to make up your own definition of words.

[Speck Tater]

22. Why not? Every religion makes up their own definition of god.

I'm just joining in the fun.

The most important thing to bear in mind mind is:

[font size=5]I don't take any discussion of god and religion seriously. To me they are all nothing more than an occasion for some light-hearted philosophical fooling around.[/font]

There is absolutely no point whatsoever in having a serious discussion about god or religion. There's nothing meaningful that can be said, and absolutely zero chance of discovering anything or settling any dispute. Such discussions must, therefore, be approached with tongue in cheek, and a sense of humor.

In other words, lighten up.

[AlbertCat]

24. Every religion makes up their own definition of god.

No they don't.

They make up what attributes their god might have and what powers it possess, but...

You'll notice all but 1 definition above has "supreme being" in it. "Being" is the key word. A god is not an idea, or emotion or an action. It is a being.

These "god is universal love" -like definitions are a new phenomenon...20th century...late 19th century at the earliest. They seem to be a desperate attempt to keep a god relevant.

[AlbertCat]

25. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in having a serious discussion about god or religion

A-men! It's like having a serious discussion about Sarah Palin or Rick Santorum.

But it is kinda fun to see what mumbo jumbo not-so- Humblebum will regurgitate.

[humblebum]

12. Simplistic analogy. There aren't thousands upon thousands of

stories of people encountering some form of orbiting pottery or having some mystical pottery experiences either.

[AlbertCat]

15. stories of people encountering some form of orbiting pottery

Stories are just stories. There are more stories about people NOT encountering supernatural delusions. And thousands upon thousands of unconfirmed stories usually means it ain't true in any other situation.


But of course it's YOU.... so....

[humblebum]

20. Yep. I was right. Very simplistic. nt

[Gore1FL]

38. The "teapot" or "toothfairy" references comre from "toothfairy agnostic" or "teapot agnostic".

The concept is this:

I have no evidence of the non-existence of the tooth fairy. I have no evidence of the non-existence of a teapot orbiting the sun between earth and mars.

Despite my lack of evidence, it doesn't mean a 50% chance either way. I can go to bed at night with a pretty good assumption that neither the tooth fairy or the teapot I described exist, even if I can't prove it.

Hopefully that clarifies what the other poster was referencing.

[zbdent]

8. God's busy right now determining who will win today's NFL games ... he's too busy

to help prevent you from starving to death or curing your cancer ...

or helping a whole bunch of people, including Jews, from being slaughtered by a madman in the 1940s ...

BTW, if God created everything, then he created Satan and Evil ...

[rug]

13. I expect Pastor Al taught his congregation to pray like that for years.

No wonder he left.

Somebody should have taught him that prayer is not a spiritual ATM.

[Lacipyt]

21. I L-U-V Atheists Like Yourself

Because it reminds me that contrary to what so many insist, there is, indeed, a religious tinge to your belief system.

When you offer, "But according to the praying Christian, it was the hand of God that made the Super show up 'just at that moment' to unlock their door," I must ask, what type of "Christian" are you referring to? There are many denominations of Christianity in America alone, and sociologists have written quite a bit about the differences that arise within dominations that are from different geographic and cultural locations.

I think what you're doing is defining prayer a specific way, and then insisting that such an action is foolish. But such straw men are easily knocked over and offer responses only to those who define the term as precisely as you.

It would explain your vamping on Weinberg's dogma, a statement I have encountered many times, and which is chewed and passed from mouth to mouth but never swallowed. Perhaps you can offer me the data that demonstrates that statement as being factual and not merely a statement of faith? Or do you, like all I've asked, feel such profound statements require nothing as laughable as "proof."

It is a wonder, indeed, that a physicist would think it OK to make a claim and not offer even the slightest hint of support save the prejudices of his audience.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. Theists could settle this issue by demonstrating a beneficial effect of intercessionary

prayer. If conducted properly, such an experiment would leave rational atheists and skeptics with no choice but to accept that prayer works.

I propose a Study for the Theraputic Effect of Prayer. Perhaps the medical college at Harvard could help.

Oh wait.

[Phillip McCleod]

41. bazinga!

[Rambis]

27. Rapture them out of here (nm)

[upaloopa]

28. Here's what I don't understand.

Why does it matter to people who don't pray if prayer works or not?
I mean it matters to themselves I guess as a support for their choice but if I pray and think it works who's business is it but mine?

[MichaelSoE]

29. I've always liked this song/video and maybe there are some youngsters here who have never seen it

Last edited Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:04 PM - Edit history (1)

on edit ... changed url

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. My thoughts on Prayer ...

Prayer, for this sojouning soul, is an example of classic prpblem solving. When one prays, they are communicating a specific need/problem albeit, IMHO, to themselves. The prayer allows us to think about the need/problem, in mindful way and with the expectation that the need is fillable or problem, solvable. This thought allows us to derive solutions.

But that said ...

I preacher, for whom I have a great deal of respect, told me: Prayer works ... God answers all prayers. It's just sometimes God says 'No'."

[cleanhippie]

34. Sounds like meditation, not prayer.

But I get what you are saying.

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. Is there really ...

a difference between "Meditation" and "Prayer", other than the religious/atheist terminology distinction?

[Gore1FL]

39. yes and no

There is an implied commune with God in "prayer."

Being an atheist, I see no useful difference between the two.

[cleanhippie]

43. I guess that would depend on the POV of the one doing the action.

In modern parlance, yes, there is a very distinct difference. One is inward self-reflection, the other is a call to a deity for favor.

[BlueStreak]

31. Religion = reverse Darwinianism

The people starving in Bangladesh who pray and still starve to death are no longer around to tell how their prayers were not answered.

The people who die of pneumonia after praying are not around to tell how their prayers were not answered.

Only the ones who happened to recover after praying are around to tell their stories.

It is "survival of the fittest tall tales" in action

[rbixby]

36. Apparently its also a popularity contest

the more people you have praying for you, the more likely it is to come true

[Phillip McCleod]

42. except that its not more likely. see #23.