Pope says future of mankind at stake over gay marriage

[Eugene]

Source: AFP/The Telegraph

Pope says future of mankind at stake over gay marriage

1:15PM GMT 21 Dec 2012

"In the fight for the family, the very notion of being – of what being human really means – is being called into question," the Pope said in Italian during an end-of-year speech.

"The question of the family ... is the question of what it means to be a man, and what it is necessary to do to be true men," he said.

The Pope spoke of the "falseness" of gender theories and cited at length France's chief Rabbi Gilles Bernheim, who has spoken out against gay marriage.

"Bernheim has shown in a very detailed and profoundly moving study that the attack we are currently experiencing on the true structure of the family, made up of father, mother, and child, goes much deeper," he said.

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Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/9760782/Pope-says-future-of-mankind-at-stake-over-gay-marriage.html

[a geek named Bob]

1. Someone please remind me to french the pope, the next time I'm in Italy... n/t

[MADem]

2. Yes, Pope--being human IS being redefined, and too bad if Pope-ee don't like it!

Being human means being free to express yourself within society without being excoriated for who and what you are....and old Bennie had best get used to that. He ain't winning this argument.

The only thing that is "false" is his bullshit premise.

[Mrs. Overall]

3. So, "true men" wear colorful gowns, red pointy shoes, and funny hats and live only with other men?

[Brettongarcia]

28. Love it! More: only true men get married and have kids - so priests never do?

[niyad]

4. umm, ratzi? most of us remember that you were head of the group within the church that has

hidden and protected the pedophile priests, so hearing you talk about the future of mankind is actually kind of funny.

you hate women, you hate gays, and yet, you expect to be taken seriously? do us all a favour and just shut up. you are embarrassing yourself and what is left of the rcc.

[skepticscott]

5. No doubt a few of the usual apologists

will be popping up to defend this.

[mr blur]

6. I wonder how many families his paedophile "fathers" have broken up.

Odious little creep.

[Fix The Stupid]

7. There are now OP's suggesting anyone

who supports the NRA needs to be TS'd...

What about people who support the pope?

By the same reasoning, shouldn't they be banned as well?


Unbelievable, that in this day and age we have 'progressives' who will support the catholic church, blindly putting their money into these coffers...so the pope can live in his ivory tower and make these 'proclamations'...

Disgusting and I put them on the same level as NRA defenders.

Flame away.

[No Vested Interest]

8. Would you ban me?

I support the Catholic church, both in practice and by monetary means.

Over 50% of Catholics voted for and elected our President.

Our Vice President is a practicing Catholic - would you ban him? and the many Senators, Representatives, and other office-holders from the blue states?

Are they, and I, disgusting and on the same level as NRA defenders?

[Plantaganet]

9. You neglected to mention your stance on gay marriage, rights, etc.

Just FYI.

[No Vested Interest]

10. I stand with Joe Biden

[skepticscott]

17. What a cowardly stance

Last edited Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Do you have no opinions of your own? Do you just point to someone you think no one here will dare to criticize, and say "what he said!"?

Pathetic.

[Plantaganet]

21. I've noticed that quirk before...

...some people don't dare say anything as clear cut as "I am unambiguously in favour of gay rights," even as an anonymous poster on an internet website. They think they're being hugely progressive, but it's really just damning with faint praise. Damning to themselves and others, that is.

[No Vested Interest]

11. I did not realize there was a litmus test.

If I did have reservations re gay marriage, rights, etc., would that disqualify me from DU even though I had made no comment in that regard?

There is much variance within the Democratic party on many issues.
I have not come on this board and railed against anything the Democratic Party endorses.

I also have not commented on any other religion or non-religion, but have noticed many vitriolic anti-Catholic postings and comments.

[cleanhippie]

27. It would seem that you are not completely UNOPPOSED to the RCC's stance on gay marriage.

And that fact, if it is accurate, is all that is needed to know.

Is it accurate? Are you ok with allowing equal rights for all, regardless of sexual orientation? It's a yes or no answer.

[edhopper]

12. I say to you the same

thing I say to NRA members who say they don't agree with everything the NRA doers, and besides, the political arm is separate from the main organization.
They are still funding the most radical policies for the assoc.

You are still funding and supporting the most egregious aspects of the Church, including the enabling of child rape.

[No Vested Interest]

13. I take note

of your mentality and reserve it for future reference.

[skepticscott]

14. Yes, you are

The Catholic Church is an organization every bit as odious as the NRA and with a much longer history of being so. Institutionalized sexism, fundamentally homophobic, anti-choice, guilty of genocide, religious intolerance and the enabling of widespread child abuse and rape. Doesn't get much more anti-progressive than that.

Should you be banned? Not saying that. Should you be subject to criticism for supporting, enabling and defending this type of behavior, and deeply ashamed for doing so? Absolutely.

[No Vested Interest]

15. I presume your opinion applies

to all practicing Catholics, including the Vice President of the USA, our many Senators and Representatives and other office-holders, and the millions who have supported the Democratic party in the present and since its inception.

I have noted your past opinions and consider the source re their validity.

[skepticscott]

16. It applies to anyone

Last edited Sat Dec 22, 2012, 06:11 PM - Edit history (1)

who willingly and enthusiastically supports the Catholic Church.

And as far as my "opinions" are concerned, are you saying it is a matter of "opinion" that the Catholic Church has done, and continues to do, the things I cited, or that those things are in fundamental opposition to the principles of this site? If you'd like to dispute any of those, bring it on. Please.

And if you have an argument why voluntarily supporting such things as institutionalized sexism, a rabidly anti-gay agenda, including unbending opposition to gay marriage, and the enabling of widespread child abuse and rape, should be celebrated and not criticized heavily, let's hear that, too. Would any such organization that didn't have it's "faith-based" hooks into people be worthy of support on this site?

Have at it. And let's hear a real argument and real facts this time, not just lame and bankrupt dismissals.

[skepticscott]

22. Apparently you have nothing of substance

to defend your enthusiastic support of the Catholic Church with. Can we assume that you've put your fingers in your ears, put me on ignore, or started telling yourself over and over that you don't have to defend or explain anything? Whichever it is, enjoy looking yourself in the mirror every morning, knowing the kinds of things your money supports.

[LeftishBrit]

18. The point is though...

that the Catholic Church is both a belief system and an organization. People may support the belief system (I don't myself) but not the way that the organization is currently run.

It's a dilemma that many people have, not just with religious beliefs but with other situations where organizational issues clash with other issues. You may for example strongly object to paying taxes that contribute to a war that you condemn, and yet you may not be prepared to withhold taxes - both because you don't want to go to prison and because the taxes also support public services - or to emigrate, even if it's possible to to do so. You may believe strongly in the purpose of your job, not to mention that you probably need the job to pay the bills(!), but not approve of the petty bully in charge of your office - should you necessarily leave your job?

I don't think that DU should exclude members of any religious group, unless they use their religion in the cause of the Right. If someone seeks to defeat progressive candidates because they are atheists, or because they are insufficiently 'pro-life', or if they use their religion as an excuse for discriminating against gays, women or any other group, then they don't belong on DU. But I would say the same of someone who would seek to defeat a Ted Kennedy or John Kerry because they're Catholic. For that matter, I would not seek to exclude people who support the right to relatively unrestricted gun ownership, even though I don't own a gun, and I live in a country where guns are not part of the culture, and I support gun control. However, if they seek to defeat progressive candidates for supporting gun control, that is a different matter.

[skepticscott]

19. If you voluntarily give money

then you are absolutely supporting the way the organization is run, and helping it to continue to be run in the same way. Giving money to a church is not mandated by law, with liability for a prison sentence if you don't pay, nor is even belonging to a particular church in the first place, so your analogy is lame and bankrupt (and has been shown to be so on many occasions, frankly, so why you would still be using it is a mystery).

Saying that you support the "good" the Catholic Church does is also a bankrupt rationalization. There is no "good" the Catholic Church does that is not also done by other organizations without the sexist and homophobic agenda of the RCC, or the record of covering up and enabling child rape.

Try again.

[ButterflyBlood]

23. The belief system and organization are seperable in this case though

You don't have to quit being Christian if you cease being Catholic. I didn't. And you can certainly find a church more in tune with your beliefs. It's not like there's any shortage of churches. Honestly you have more choice in the "market" there than you do for any consumer product.

[skepticscott]

24. Well, any consumer products

Except toothpaste and vodka

[Laochtine]

20. 400 years after every rational thinking country

legalizes these civil rights, the church will condone it, if it still exists. Kinda like the republicon party only way slower

[mmonk]

25. Jesus on "in the fight for the family".

If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children
and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
-Jesus (Luke 14:26)

[Festivito]

26. Badly written article. Incomplete sentences that need to be completed.

The pope cites Rabbi Gilles Bernheim who cites Simone de Beauvoir's view that its a choice. So, what is not liked and by whom? And that a view says someone choses, or that it is a choice?

The wording seems couched specifically to not say what is to be heard.