I didn’t know sex with 13-year-old was illegal. (Student, 18, blames Muslim teaching)

[cleanhippie]

A STUDENT who had sex with a 13-year-old girl claimed he didn’t know it was illegal because of his strict Muslim upbringing, a court heard yesterday. Adil Rashid, 18, met the girl on Facebook and groomed her for two months before booking a hotel where they had sex.

But when cops arrested him, he claimed he did not know about the age of consent because of his Muslim education in a madrassa school.

He also said he had been taught a woman was “no more worthy than a lollipop dropped on the ground”.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4763915/I-didnt-know-sex-with-13-year-old-was-illegal-says-student-18-who-blames-Muslim-teaching.html#ixzz2J706514M

If one accepts that religion is a valid way of thinking, must one accept this as a valid excuse?

[still_one]

1. Ignorance of the law is no excuse

[Xipe Totec]

2. I'm sure his defense will be devastatingly persuasive to the jury nt

[LARED]

3. When did religion become a "way of thinking" ?

[cleanhippie]

7. It's not?

Is is not a way of viewing the world? Does it not affect how one thinks about a particular subject, say the Rights of a woman to choose what to do with her body? Religious thinking, at least what we see here, is that abortion is a sin, murder. Were it not for religious thinking, there would be little resistance to a woman's personal choice.

[skepticscott]

12. It's one of those

"Other ways of knowing" Some of the smartest people in the room will verify that.

[seabeyond]

4. in a different country. not in the u.s. i doubt you would find many duers at all,

even those into religion, that does not believe in separation of state and religion. so, no. it is not a valid excuse and it is a poorly drawn conclusion.

[cleanhippie]

8. Perhaps you just aren't looking hard enough.

Every time a story comes up about a city council having a prayer, a cross on public land, religion in public schools, many DU'ers come out in favor of allowing these transgressions to stand.

[EvilAL]

5. The lollipop reference

is rather disturbing. The rest is equally disturbing, but a lollipop dropped on the ground? For fuck's sake.

[cleanhippie]

9. I know!

It's disgusting.

[EvilAL]

13. I wonder who "taught" him that.

10 bucks says it wasn't his mother, fuck, I hope not...

[BainsBane]

14. his defense attorney

[EvilAL]

18. There ya go! nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Taj El-Din Hilaly?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/controversial-mufti-attacks-australia-in-tv-interview/2007/01/11/1168105116655.html

[BainsBane]

23. so I point you to a few statements from lunatic Americans

and we should conclude that is what all Americans are? You resent being lumped in with the NRA, but you are happy to take a couple of examples to condemn a third of the world's population.

You clearly know nothing about Islam or Muslims. Here's somewhere you can start:
http://www.mnvideovault.org/index.php?id=22858&select_index=0&popup=yes#0

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Not even close to an even comparison.

The individual in question was elected by his peers to be the head islamic cleric in Australia. His words are also not out of line with mainstream islam.

I have not condemend muslims in the least.

I do question how anyone can claim to be liberal and progressive and defend islam or the sharia

[BainsBane]

45. I don't understand how anyone can claim to be progressive

Last edited Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:45 PM - Edit history (2)

while displaying the level of bigotry you do. I refuse to condemn one of the three Abrahamic religions because you're too close minded to bother learning anything.
What you are doing is far worse than lumping you in with the NRA. You choose to share some of their views. Islam is a religion into which people are born. It is also a cultural tradition that has generated contributions in science, mathematics, philosophy, architecture, and a host of other areas.

Your reference to Sharia law is absurd. Nothing in this discussion relates is to Sharia law. The case is the UK. You sound like one of those Teabaggers proposing to abolish sharia law in Oklahoma.

The fact that you say I can't be liberal and defend Islam as well as your previous statement that "Islam is bad news" is the epitome of bigotry. Firstly, there are liberal Muslims. Good God, what do you think the Arab Spring was about? You can no more claim to not hate Muslims but despise Islam than you can to not hate Jews while despising Judaism. Religion is part of who people are.

You clearly can't tell the difference between Islamicism and Islam. Islamicism is a radical branch of Islam. It is not the entire religion. You might just as well have pointed to Sufism, but it wouldn't have served your stereotypical ends.
Here we see evidence of the other side of your absurd contention that those of us who don't have intimate knowledge of gun mechanics are stupid. You would do well to focus on educating yourself in history, politics, the humanities, the arts, and sciences. If you had, this conversation would not be necessary.


Next time you get a cup of coffee, remind yourself that it's evil Muslims that made that possible.

[BainsBane]

6. He's playing on stereotypes

Last edited Fri Mar 1, 2013, 03:09 AM - Edit history (1)

and it's pernicious. Muslims do not believe women are "no more worthy than a lollipop dropped on the ground." That is how many Westerners think they see women.
The man is a liar, period.

[Laochtine]

36. I'm know there are liberal Muslims, just as there are liberal Christians and Jews.

But those books treat women like second class citizens. It's seems that the West has a greater percentage
of liberal interpretations of how women should be treated, enlighten me If you think that's not true. I don't
live in the UK, but in the US we have closed religious societies. And before you call me a bigot, I have no
less love for your religion than any other.

[BainsBane]

44. what books?

Liberalism is a Western concept, so obviously it is more common in the West. I'll point out that we have not yet had a woman as President, while Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, and Senegal have all had women as either Prime Minister or President.

It is not my religion, but I despise bigotry against Muslims just as much as I despise it against African-Americans, Latinos, LBGT, Jews, or any other group.

[okasha]

48. Add to your list

India, Israel, the Phillipines, Liberia; and in the west, Argentina,Chile, Ireland, Iceland, the UK and Germany.

[BainsBane]

49. Yes, but I was talking about countries with significant Muslim populations

so India should indeed be on the list.

[okasha]

51. Understood.

Just pointing out how far behind we are by Western measures, too.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. So should Israel.

[Laochtine]

60. Religious books

"I'll point out that we have not yet had a woman as President, while Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, and Senegal have all had women as either Prime Minister or President."

I never said America wasn't misogynistic, we're are behind most Western countries in equality, no doubt about it. I was
comparing East to West. I think it comes down to that most religions treat women as second class people or property.

"It is not my religion, but I despise bigotry against Muslims just as much as I despise it against African-Americans, Latinos, LBGT, Jews, or any other group."

Is it bigoted to be against female circumcision, not allowing freedom of movement or work and lack of education. If so I am
Proudly. And no I'm not generalizing a group, but the practices of people in that group and to a lesser extent the people
that look the other way.

[BainsBane]

62. No it is not bigoted in being against female circumcision

and the other characteristics you list, but to assume those practices apply to all Muslims is indeed bigoted. And frankly it's just plain ignorant. If women were not allowed to work anywhere in the Muslim world, how did so many rise to be heads of state and government? I suggest you take time to learn about diversity within Muslim cultures, including Muslims in the West, before you decide to condemn a huge swatch of the world's population.

I am not a Koranic scholar, but from what I have read there is nothing in the Koran to suggest a woman is inferior to a man.

[BainsBane]

50. Here is some additional information for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

[ButterflyBlood]

56. Yeah I see this in the article

Sharia (Islamic law) provides for complementarianism,[7] differences between women's and men's roles, rights, and obligations.

Basically the same position as the Roman Catholic Church. How progressive.

[BainsBane]

57. Sharia law is not at issue here

The UK doesn't have Sharia law, nor do the vast majority of Muslim countries.

[ButterflyBlood]

58. Maybe not, but no country bans birth control either because of the RCC's edict

That doesn't make the RCC position any less ridiculous or wrong.

[BainsBane]

59. true, sexism abounds

in both East and West. What I am responding to here is prejudice against a huge swatch of the world's population in response to stereotypes trumped up to legitimate military intervention in the Muslim world. The Sun and apparently the boy in the story are playing on those stereotypes for their own purposes, and they succeed because Americans and Brits have been taught that the Muslim world is inferior.

[Laochtine]

61. Thank you

I'll read it

[azurnoir]

64. +1 reminds me of a guy

years ago who blamed his shooting a cop on being high on weed

[BainsBane]

11. It's an object lesson in the lengths a lying rapist will go to

and says nothing about Islam. Your comment is bigoted.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. That claim is far from unique to that case

There are many within islam who support that their view is superior to local and national laws. There was a notorious one in Australia with very telling comments by the mufti.

I have lived in the Middle East and seen some of this first hand. Is it still bigoted if its the truth?

[BainsBane]

21. to condemn a huge swatch of the world's population

because of a few news reports is ignorant. It is not the truth. There is a great deal of diversity within Islam and among Muslims. I live in city with a large Muslim population, work with many strong, accomplished Muslim women, and I know an ignorant stereotype when I see it. Your comments show no understanding of Islam, but they do say a great deal about who you are.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. I did not say a thing about muslims

I said the islam and the sharia are a problem

[skepticscott]

16. Oh, and did you sit in

On his classes? No, and you have no fucking idea what he was taught, do you? Christian preachers say just as despicable things about women or gays, and they say it right out in public, so you can be sure it's also said behind the close doors of fundy Xstian academies. Why is it impossible that the same sort of thing happened to this boy?

[wandy]

17. I bet the dog ate his homework too.....

If one accepts that religion is a valid way to do wrong, one must accept the consequences.
Guess it ain't just us christians that hide behind "the devil made me do it".

[LeftishBrit]

20. Just to note: 'The Sun' is our MOST unreliable tabloid against lots of competition

I suspect that they are slanting the report so as to demonize immigrants/ British Asians (a favourite sport of theirs).

Of course it is not an excuse in any case - sounds like something he's using in desperation.

[BainsBane]

22. Thank you for pointing that out

They play on the prejudices of the Westerners predisposed to condemn everyone and everything associated with Islam.

[okasha]

24. Ah, but think of it this way.

The religion haters and the fundies have found common ground at last.

[mr blur]

28. Grow up.

[okasha]

40. The only difference

[between the fundie haters and the haters of all religions is that the fundies hate one less religion.

[cleanhippie]

29. That may be, but I don't know how his statements and actions could be miscontrued.

[LeftishBrit]

54. Not his own statements, but their typicality

Of Islam and 'foreign religions' in the case of the Sun; of any religion in some responses here.

There are some awful madrassas that do encourage hate-attitudes and support for sharia law (though it should be pointed out that very few people in the UK attend madrassas). But as the judge pointed out, it is most unlikely that any madrassa would at the same time condone premarital sex. Also, whatever his school, he should as an adult citizen know the law in the UK.

Obviously he was looking for any possible excuse. Quite rightly, his excuses were not accepted.

[kestrel91316]

25. This is in the UK. I don't know their laws on this. I'll trust the courts to handle this person

appropriately. If he pulls the "she tempted me" defense, though, he gets a FAIL.

[struggle4progress]

53. ... Rashid told police that he had been “tempted by her” ... Rashid was sentenced to nine months in

in youth custody, suspended for two years ... http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4763915/I-didnt-know-sex-with-13-year-old-was-illegal-says-student-18-who-blames-Muslim-teaching.html

[kwassa]

26. I forgot that sex with a 13-year old was illegal!

Advice from Steve Martin.

You.. can be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes! You can be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes! You say.. "Steve.. how can I be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes?" First.. get a million dollars. Now.. you say, "Steve.. what do I say to the tax man when he comes to my door and says, 'You.. have never paid taxes'?" Two simple words. Two simple words in the English language: "I forgot!" How many times do we let ourselves get into terrible situations because we don't say "I forgot"? Let's say you're on trial for armed robbery. You say to the judge, "I forgot armed robbery was illegal." Let's suppose he says back to you, "You have committed a foul crime. you have stolen hundreds and thousands of dollars from people at random, and you say, 'I forgot'?" Two simple words: Excuuuuuse me!!"

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/77/77imono.phtml

[Kalidurga]

27. 18 years old and already knows how to play the stereotype...

I wonder how old he was when he learned to do that. I have no doubt most religions teach that women are inferior. But, I doubt that very many say that sex before marriage is ok. So, he had to at least know he was offending Allah.

[Ian David]

30. So, his defense is to hope the jury believes every negative stereotype of Muslims?

Really, if he thought he was doing nothing wrong, he would have offered to meet her family. instead of sneaking into a motel room.

[okasha]

37. Exactly.

In other words, you can't kill yout parents, then throw yourself on the mercy of the court because you're an orphan.

[Agnosticsherbet]

34. You claim to be a liberal and then say muslims teach their sons to be terrorists?

If you check, you will find the vast majority of muslims don't condone terrorism and don't raise their children to be martyrs. The ones that do are the followers of the Jerry Falwell's of Islam. See my post below and find that premarital sex is punishable under Islam by 100 lashes, something that this idiot did not seem to know. As I said, sound like he wants to claim some sort of religious freedom to molest children, which makes him no different than many of the extremist Mormons.

[Agnosticsherbet]

41. You just said "this is the same group of people"

There were no limiters in there. It was a broad statement. President Obama, as a child, is said to have attended a Madrassa. It is clear that his had few if any similarities. Some fundamentalist extremist convince their sons to blow themselves up. To make broad statements, however, is not correct. Nor is there any evience that his madrassa teaches a virulent brand of jihadism along with a form of Islam that doesn't teach that premarital sex isn't a grave sin.

[skepticscott]

39. Do you claim to be a liberal

and do you agree or deny that SOME Xstians teach their children to hate homosexuals?

Of course not ALL Muslims teach their sons to be terrorists, or any of the other "stereotypes". What an idiotic strawman. No one is saying that. But can you say with certainty that NO Muslim parent or teacher would EVER teach their son that, or teach them negative attitudes towards women, or Christians, or Jews? Can you say with certainty that the person in question was not taught what he says he was?

[Agnosticsherbet]

43. Yes, I claim to be liberal and vote that way...

Some Christian churches do teach that homosexuality is a sin, some teach racism, others don't. This is true of Jewish Synagogues also. Because of that, I try to be careful how I treat them as a group.

The individual mentioned in the OP is certainly a miserable excuse for a human. In discussing his transgression, I found it amazing that he would stalk, groom, and then molest a child and then appear to claim he was taught that was OK because women are not worth a lollipop when the act of stalking, grooming, and molesting is wrong in itself. I think his excuse is just bogus justification and not necessarily a comment on his claimed faith.

[skepticscott]

46. So why would you snarkily ask someone

"You claim to be a liberal and then say muslims teach their sons to be terrorists?" when YOU claim to be a liberal and still say that christians train their children to be homophobes?

And yes, his justification may be made up...that's why we have trials...to sort those things out. But at this point, neither you nor anyone else can claim to have ANY knowledge whatsoever that his claim isn't true.

[Agnosticsherbet]

32. Didn't they teach him that pre-marital sex was forbidden in Islam

and according to the Koran is punishable by 100 lashes with a whip. Kind of odd that they would teach him women are worthless and not cover the fact that it is a grave sin to have sex out of wedlock. Sounds to me like he is dumber than dirt and trying to use freedom of religion to justify molesting a child.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. The judge said in his summary that they did say extra-marital sex was forbidden

(not specifying a punishment).

[auntsue]

52. I loved what the judge said

"well your religion also teaches no sex before marriage too, but that didn't stop you.....Perfect !

[InversChaosAnon]

63. only reason is a 'valid way of thinking'

but like a computer, reasoning is only as good as its inputs

is religion a way of thinking? idk
...

anyway, more a reflection on the school than the religion.

[In_The_Wind]

65. Hello InversChaosAnon. I hope you enjoy being here at DU.

[img][/img]

In The Wind

[img][/img]