Religion
Related: About this forumIt's a big, fat myth that all scientists are religion-hating atheists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/occams-corner/2013/mar/04/myth-scientists-religion-hating-atheistsPosted by
Sylvia McLain
Monday 4 March 2013 10.59 EST
Whether or not you think science is wonderful, the stereotype of all scientists being atheists is unrealistic. There is, however, a special dance
Science and religion: not mutually exclusive. (Detail from stained glass window at Lincoln Cathedral by Pommiebastards on Flickr)
Scientists used to be white guys in white lab coats with crazy hair, spectacles and an autistic inability to relate to other people. Now scientists are (mostly) white guys who are obsessed about the wonder of science and hate religion; and I think they all like Star Trek quite a bit too. This new religion-hating, super-awed scientist stereotype seems to based on some very strange amalgamation between Brian Cox and Richard Dawkins. And this cartoon-version of "what a scientist looks like" is all sort of tangled up in religion; where science pundits are either vilified because they are seen to all hate religion or almost worshiped like gods they supposedly detest.
Ignoring that science and religion are really not the same thing, on the love side Cox has been said to resemble what God would have probably looked like "with hair that falls around his face like a helix".
On the flip-side, popular scientists have been attacked for using the misty-eyed language of religion because apparently using the word "wonder" ain't allowed if you are an atheist or a scientist. As Eliane Glaser put it last week: "It's ironic that the public engagement with the science crowd is so pro-wonder, because they're so anti-religion."
All scientists; religion haters. Also it is a little known fact but now when you get a physics PhD in the UK, you are given a job-lot of Wonders wallpaper for your new office and complementary D:Ream CD; which must be played on high days and holidays. We also learn a special dance but I am not allowed to talk about this.
more at link
RedstDem
(1,239 posts)logic is the most important part of science, and logic alone kills off religion...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Let me ask you this. Do you have any doctors? Do you know if they are religious or not?
RedstDem
(1,239 posts)all I said was I wouldn't trust a scientist that believes in made up shit.
sorry if I offend, that's just my opinion.
also, everyone is atheist to a certain degree.
everyone that believes in their god, at the same time doesn't believe in the hundred or so other gods that others do believe in.
So I just don't believe in one additional god than most believer's think are fake.
lol
cbayer
(146,218 posts)than those who say it's true.
But you do have some of the talking points down.
Welcome to the religion group. I would encourage you to keep an open mind and be civil. There are a wide variety of believers/non-believers here and each has a unique and individual perspective. Yours is one and it is valuable.
I do not mean to offend, I'm sorry.
and the whole, I only don't believe in one more god than you don't believe in is a talking point.
but its a pretty good one dontcha think?
lol
I'm just teasing.
I apologize again, for the teasing...
now how the hel..heck did I find my way into the religion group?
wait, don't say it!
cbayer
(146,218 posts)There are people who are religionists in the same way that a man can be a feminist, if you know what I mean.
Lol - were you guided by some force to the religion group? It can be a fun place to learn about how others think.
As to the talking point about everyone being an atheist, I reject it. There is a huge gaping grey area between being a pure theist and an atheist.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)would be alerting all day long.
Which I'm not.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,368 posts)If my doctor said "maybe you got better because of a miracle", or "get your family and friends to pray for you", I'd look for another.
Logic requires the doctor to suspend their belief in miracles and prayer while doing their job. Similarly, a scientist can't use 'God did it' in a discussion of results.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I know there are those that don't and there are also doctors who don't, but I agree with you that it is pretty inappropriate to try and mix the two when doing your job.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)and evidence-based inquiry on the one hand, and religion on the other, why should there be a problem mixing the two anywhere?
Jim__
(14,083 posts)Too bad he didn't have you around to advise him.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)He also did a pretty good job on the english treasury, but his other pursuits were, um, odd.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)though he had no inkling of the theological implications of his theory it was because he just didn't think that way. if he was a believer it was because everyone was a believer then or you ended up much worse than galileo. would it surprise you if his incarceration had a private effect on his faith, which he could not because of his imprisonment make public? knowing what we know of the ***brutally oppressive history*** of the roman catholic church?
Big Blue Marble
(5,151 posts)You know the ones who built the foundation of today's science.
The deep thinkers of earlier times were able to use logic and
have reverence for the unknowable.
Does it occur to you that your response may be based on a form
of bigotry?
Silent3
(15,281 posts)Yet he wrote eloquently about freedom. Lincoln probably would have gone apoplectic if he'd ever had a daughter and she'd wanted to marry a black man.
People are products of their times. They might have great ideas, great insights, and great internal contradictions at the same time. I see theistic thinking as a contradiction to scientific thinking that many scientist have nevertheless been able to work around.
Further, "reverence for the unknowable" is not the same as belief in deities.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)My brother is a highly religious computer scientist. Universities have plenty examples of excellent scientists who are religious, many of whom are wonderful friends.
Although I am not a big believer myself, I have no problem accepting them and their beliefs.
You should try it...
RedstDem
(1,239 posts)What i should have written, is I wouldn't trust a scientist that believes the fables within religion, or the bible to be more exact, belief in and of itself of a higher power is not a problem.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)The people that I listed in my response to you consider the Bible to be an earlier version of Aesop's fables -- great stories with lessons for life but not to be taken literally.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)eom
longship
(40,416 posts)First, there's this:
Ironic? Really!? Why would that be?
Apparently Eliane Glaser has bought into the believers' rubbish that one has to believe in God in order to have a numinous-like experience from the universe. Certainly, that is an opinion that will pretty much piss off many a non-believer, or at minimum having them doing a face palm.
The other issue is that the vast proportion of PhD scientists are indeed non-believers. Not all of them wear their unbelief on their sleeves, like Dawkins. Many, if not most, probably don't think much about it, let alone take a public stand. Of course, believers may interpret this silence as approval which is not necessarily true.
On the whole, I see this article as doing little to advance any discussion on these matters, especially as its premises are demonstrably incorrect.
One does not need religion to be awed by nature. Most scientists are indeed non-believers, whether the theists like it or not.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)significantly higher than the general public, it is far from the "vast proportion" according to what I have read.
Here is a good article:
http://www.annarbor.com/faith/science-vs-religion-what-are-scientists-religious-beliefs/
The point for me is that these are two different things that are not at all mutually exclusive.
The "wonder" issue is an interesting topic. Most people's understanding of science is very limited and they have to accept scientific finding as some sort of leap of faith, as they do not have the tools to assess the validity of the methods or findings.
This is a particular problem due to the internet, where many otherwise rational people accept anything that is put out there as a scientific finding as fact. I hear it every day - people use completely bad science as fact because they read it on the internet.
longship
(40,416 posts)In physics, the proportion of unbelievers is very high; in biology, still high, but not so much. The average of all scientists, only a third believe in God. I don't know how anybody can claim that that's a high percentage. Here's a typical study (from Pew):
http://www.pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Scientists-and-Belief.aspx
In short, it is a fact that working scientists generally are not God believers. The reasons for this should be obvious.
On the Internet issue, you are oh so correct. There is so much woo and pseudoscience that it scares me. People will apparently believe anything, if it is presented with authority. Ironically, scientists above all must learn to distrust authority to be successful. That's one lesson that most people have not learned. The only valid authority is nature herself! It certainly isn't a person in a pulpit or even somebody with a Nobel medal.
SwissTony
(2,560 posts)What if one-third of scientists believed in unicorns. I'd find that to be appallingly high.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)One mythical creature or another.
SwissTony
(2,560 posts)But in our society, belief in God is "acceptable" while belief in unicorns is not.
longship stated in his/her post that "I don't know how anybody can claim that that's a high percentage". Actually, *I* would. My point about unicorns was an attempt to indicate that it is.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)It's an inner voice of morality and it's also a voice of assurance giving us confidence to deal with the tyrants and psychos that we have to deal with daily. I used to do that shit; now I am a seasoned skeptic.
Sorry about using the "second person" reference.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and the general public. I can't dispute that. But there is also some significant overlap. Those that overlap would be an interesting group to talk to, imo.
I hope children are being taught how to evaluate internet information in a scientific way. Things like peer reviewed studies, basic statistics and critical reading would go a long way in helping stem the tide of bogus information out there.
I have friends spending a fortune on supplements and other quackery. When I take the time to go over the "data" they are using to support this, they are sometimes grateful, but often they just insist that what they have read is true.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)and personal experience and testimonials on top of that. Who are you to tell them that their "faith" is foolish and misguided? That smacks of sheer bigotry.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,368 posts)I think those figures come from Pew: http://www.pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Scientists-and-Belief.aspx
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Oh right, nobody.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I don't know of anyone who has insisted all scientists are "religion-hating atheists" so I'm not sure why this was a "myth" that had to be busted.
Well, I guess right-wing fundies probably see scientists as that, but I don't think this hit piece was targeted at them.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that all liberal and progressive Christians are smarmy, condescending assholes.
Now we've cleared up two myths in one thread. Better, yes?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)No doubt there are examples of them that are nice people.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)your irony meter.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts).... not being an asshole or a jackass. That's why it is so easy for me to recognize one.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)all the way to 11. Then start the thread at the top.
Mirrors are your friend.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)...though I do know many religious people who are so all-fire eager to find atheists to be hypocrites that if an atheist says the word "wonder," the religious person will jump all over them. No atheist worth listening to is unaware that any human being can have what is commonly called a numinous experience--meaning a moment of "Wow" when looking at a distant galaxy or a beautiful sunrise. But it's hardly surprising that certain religious types insist that, like morality, a belief in the divine is necessary to experience such things. It's yet another way to scare people into not being atheists--"You'll lose your sense of wonder!"
Such religious groups also tend to use the "scientists are atheists" meme as a way of keeping their members from learning anything outside of what the religion wants them to believe (i.e. thinking and researching things for themselves). The stereotype of the atheist scientist isn't, after all, new. Look at all the old movies where the scientist "plays at being god" and something horrible happens. The message: godly folk stay away from science! Knowledge is dangerous and god doesn't want you to think. This has always been a way for certain religious groups to keep their followers believing only what the "church" tells them.
I had presumed, however, that those of us who actually read and research and are informed (theists and atheists) would know better: that science won't turn you atheist any more than gay marriage will turn you homosexual. Apparently not if someone felt the need to write an essay assuring us well-informed thinking types (who else would be reading it?) that scientists can believe in god. It's doubly sad that you felt this essay needed to be posted on the DU--do we really need to be told something so friggin' obvious? If so, how very tragic for us.
If we here on the DU can't think of anything better to argue about than whether a scientist who finds a cure for cancer has the ability to believe in god or not--then we might as well pack our bags and give into the climate change. I really thought we were better informed than that--or at least that a scientist's religious belief (or lack thereof) shouldn't matter to us.
longship
(40,416 posts)I am pretty much with you.
Until you wondered why this was posted here on DU...
Well, it was posted in the Religion forum which puts articles like this well within DU scope. In fact, this is a topic which is common here, which is why such things usually get some good response.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)particularly that someone's religious beliefs or lack of beliefs shouldn't matter.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)addressing that topic, called Unweaving the Rainbow.
Of course, it was Richard Dawkins, so a lot of people will simply dismiss it as the bigoted rantings of a boor.
Drale
(7,932 posts)that one does not have to be an atheist to hate religion. I hate religion, and believe it is the root of much evil in this world but I also believe in God and heaven and hell.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)When asked what you "are", how do you respond?
Drale
(7,932 posts)I was raised and confirmed catholic but never really felt at home there, and when I started paying attention to the world around me I saw more and more hate justified by religion and I just could not do it anymore. I would say I'm more of a deist, that is God set everything in motion at the beginning of time but has left it to work on its own since then. I don't need a guy in a funny hat telling me that if I don't live my life to his commands I'm going to burn in hell and I don't need to sit in a building listening to the same stories over and over.
On a side note: Its very odd, I hate religion but I am fascinated by church architecture. I love old Churches and when I was in Europe I probably saw more Churches than anything else.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)like yourself, can't align themselves with the either/or definition. And those are often the same people who can't subscribe to an organized religion.
I also love religious architecture and much of the ritual. I had the great fortune to go to Istanbul last year, and the calling to prayer from the multitude of mosques caused me to cry. I don't know why, but it was one of the most moving experiences I have ever had.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Being either an atheist or theist isn't a predictor on an individual level that you are religious or not. Quite a few atheists follow some of the non-theistic religions, and hence are religious, and quite a few theists(deism is a subset of that) follow no religion, quite a few of the so called "unchurched" are an example of this.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)irrelevant as one looks at an individual.
You have labeled yourself as one thing in your screen name, but I suspect you are many other things as well.
It's one of the things I find most interesting about religion/spirituality/theism, etc.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)are those. Now, to be more specific I'm a secular humanism, by default, because I don't have religion, however, there are religious humanists, because humanism, in general, isn't exclusive.
People make assumptions about an extremely narrow topic, theism, because they broaden it out, erroneously, to other topics that have no bearing on the position itself. Usually this is related to the larger culture, people assume if someone says they believe in a god, its the Christian god, at least in the United States, if you asked someone in India, the answer would be distinctly different.
Its a very narrow topic, and people's positions on that topic aren't very descriptive on a personal level. You can even be a theist towards a particular god and not worship them, because those are two different things. Maltheists would be an example of this, they are theists, yes, but they also think god is a bastard who doesn't deserve worship.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)When I read it, it doesn't mean much to me at all.
But it describes your world view, which is fine.
I don't limit theism to the christian god at all. All it means to me is that someone believes in a god or gods. I generally anticipate that if I ask someone to expand on that, I will get a different answer from pretty much everyone. Even the ones who believe in a distinct, say christian, god.
And then there is the concept of apatheism - those that don't know and don't care if there is a god at all.
For me the bottom line is this - everyone gets to define themselves and those that assume to understand what each individual see/believes in without asking more questions are missing the boat.
Except of course, if those people wear their definitions on their sleeve, when one might need to ask much at all.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)"Divine command theory". Pretty much whatever the Church says goes when it comes to morals and that is considered good by God. Led to a lot of cognitive dissonance.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I was raised in a completely different kind of church, so my perspective is understandably very different.
Interesting, isn't it?
Meshuga
(6,182 posts)Judaism is a great example of that since certain belief is not a focus of the religion. You could have a reform Jew who believes in a personal God and an Orthodox Jew who sees god as an abstract idea which would probably be considered atheistic in the Christian concept. My grandfather was an example of the latter. He was an orthodox rabbi who did all the religious stuff but one would consider him as being non-theistic when it came to a personal god idea that most think of when the word "god" is uttered.
The whole thing regarding religion and theism is pretty complex but many times simplified in discussions because we all tend to assume according with our own experiences and background. And because of that, we have people talking past each other.
pinto
(106,886 posts)He was a scientist, artist and member of the Unitarian Church. Saw little conflict with all three of those aspects of his life.
Though raised a Catholic, he chose to join a local Unitarian church for its more open, inclusive approach to spirituality. And its history - founded by Charles Follen, a vocal New England abolitionist and the last ministerial position of the poet Ralph Waldo Emerson.
He was a mathematician at Lincoln Lab. Worked on the team that plotted the Apollo space missions. A decidedly precise and logical undertaking. And one that he said filled him with awe those times he stepped back from the day-to-day calculations the projects demanded.
Lincoln inevitably and increasingly took on VietNam War projects. His team included. Personal ethics, politics and the support of his church - which was openly opposing the war at that time - led to his resignation from the position. Moved on to a second career in art education.
While he missed the team environment at Lincoln, personally, he saw the progression of events as seamless and inclusive of all three of those aspects of his life.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Having been in both religious and scientific communities at various points in my life, I never really thought there was a conflict at all. In fact, I don't think I had ever heard the argument made for a conflict until I started posting in this group.
But I still maintain that they are completely different things and that no conflict need exist unless one tries to deny science with religious beliefs or deny religion based on scientific beliefs.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)"no conflict need exist unless one tries to deny science with religious beliefs", then you acknowledge that a conflict DOES exist, since this is happening all the time.
And there are no scientific "beliefs" that are used to deny religion. Just your latest attempt to paint a false equivalency.
Btw, on what basis do you deny the religious belief of creationism, to the point where you feel justified in calling creationists "a bunch of dumbasses"?
pinto
(106,886 posts)One didn't justify nor deny the other. And personal choices were separate from professional choices for the most part. His personal standards were his and his alone. There was no need to apply them to anyone else, one way or the other.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)And there's a helluva lot more than one.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that it was never a "myth" to begin with. Just a silly straw man invention by someone who had a deadline to meet and needed column inches.
But if you can show us where this "myth" has been promulgated, by all means, do so.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)to back up your horseshit claim that this was ever a "myth" that needed to be flushed in the first place..and to do it with facts. Have at it..or aren't facts your thing?
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)Paragraph four was pathetic for that matter.
Am I supposed to spend my afternoon researching Brian Cox or D:Ream CD?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I found the article interesting and there are links in the original so looking at the sources is pretty easy.
But, hey, if it's not your flavor, that's ok.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)are two separate questions. that the author failed from the outset to grasp this utterly mundane factoid is reason enough to not click on the link, as advised.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If an individual can comfortably be both religious and scientific, than I think it can be extrapolated that the two concepts are compatible in general.
Don't click on the link if you don't want to, but I found it a pretty good article.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)Anyone who doesn't think science is wonderful is a fucking idiot. You are typing on a computer because of science, able to communicate with others because of science, alive past the age of 30 because of science, able to live through diseases because of science, and on and on and on. Every single thing in your modern life is there because of science.
Scientists know that religion has not accomplished one thing and has in fact stymied science and progress throughout the years. And the scientists I know KNOW that life itself is incredibly wonderful in fact. There's no need to mysticize it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)What exactly are you on about?
"Scientists know" is a bout as a broad a statement as one could make. They are by no means monolithic and many are also religious.
Evoman
(8,040 posts)The same people that believe those atheist professor emails, probably.
Of course there are religious scientists. Duh. Of course not all scientists hate religion. Double duh. Who the fuck ever claimed otherwise?
If this myth was ever propagated, it was probably done so by religious leaders that hate science and scientists. They want to scare people away from science. Because the truth seems to be that if you are taught science and embrace it, your chances of being a faithful believer decrease. You can be a religious scientist, but it becomes harder....harder to reconcile faith with the scientific method, harder to suppress applying what you know about evolution to religious origin stories.
When I was in grad school, the majority of other grad students in physics, biology and chemistry who I knew personally were not religious. Some of them were vaguely "spiritual", but few were outright religious. But religious scientists did exist. One of the biologists was actually Mormon.