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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:09 PM Mar 2013

It's a big, fat myth that all scientists are religion-hating atheists

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/occams-corner/2013/mar/04/myth-scientists-religion-hating-atheists

Posted by
Sylvia McLain
Monday 4 March 2013 10.59 EST

Whether or not you think science is wonderful, the stereotype of all scientists being atheists is unrealistic. There is, however, a special dance



Science and religion: not mutually exclusive. (Detail from stained glass window at Lincoln Cathedral by Pommiebastards on Flickr)
Scientists used to be white guys in white lab coats with crazy hair, spectacles and an autistic inability to relate to other people. Now scientists are (mostly) white guys who are obsessed about the wonder of science and hate religion; and I think they all like Star Trek quite a bit too. This new religion-hating, super-awed scientist stereotype seems to based on some very strange amalgamation between Brian Cox and Richard Dawkins. And this cartoon-version of "what a scientist looks like" is all sort of tangled up in religion; where science pundits are either vilified because they are seen to all hate religion or almost worshiped like gods they supposedly detest.

Ignoring that science and religion are really not the same thing, on the love side Cox has been said to resemble what God would have probably looked like "with hair that falls around his face like a helix".

On the flip-side, popular scientists have been attacked for using the misty-eyed language of religion – because apparently using the word "wonder" ain't allowed if you are an atheist or a scientist. As Eliane Glaser put it last week: "It's ironic that the public engagement with the science crowd is so pro-wonder, because they're so anti-religion."

All scientists; religion haters. Also it is a little known fact but now when you get a physics PhD in the UK, you are given a job-lot of Wonders wallpaper for your new office and complementary D:Ream CD; which must be played on high days and holidays. We also learn a special dance but I am not allowed to talk about this.

more at link
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It's a big, fat myth that all scientists are religion-hating atheists (Original Post) cbayer Mar 2013 OP
I wouldnt trust a scientist that's religious RedstDem Mar 2013 #1
Did you read the article? cbayer Mar 2013 #2
yeah, I read it RedstDem Mar 2013 #5
You do offend and you have no more evidence that it is made up shit cbayer Mar 2013 #7
thank you RedstDem Mar 2013 #9
First off, you have no idea how many gods I may or may not believe in. cbayer Mar 2013 #11
Gee whiz, well then, by golly, why don't you alert? 2ndAmForComputers Mar 2013 #60
If I were to alert on everything that was merely offensive, I cbayer Mar 2013 #61
You'd hope any doctor would leave the religious belief at home, though muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #22
I think that most religious scientists also leave their beliefs at home. cbayer Mar 2013 #23
If there is no conflict between science, reason skepticscott Mar 2013 #66
Yes, Newton was such an illogical ass. Jim__ Mar 2013 #3
newton, when he wasn't inventing modern physics, was an amazing nutjob. Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #4
Galileo as well. Shall we go on? cbayer Mar 2013 #6
with galileo it bothers me that he was imprisoned sure Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #65
Of course many of the early scientists were religious. Big Blue Marble Mar 2013 #24
Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner Silent3 Mar 2013 #67
I had a Sunday school teacher who worked on the Manhattan Project as a nuclear physicist. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #31
I am very accepting of people of faith RedstDem Mar 2013 #45
That is quite different. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #54
I'm happy to fit the stereotype nicely.... mike_c Mar 2013 #8
I have a few problems with this. longship Mar 2013 #10
While the numbers of non-believers in the scientific community is certainly cbayer Mar 2013 #14
It depends upon the discipline. longship Mar 2013 #17
Depends on what's being measured. SwissTony Mar 2013 #19
what's the difference between that and belief in "god"...? mike_c Mar 2013 #27
To you and me, nothing. SwissTony Mar 2013 #48
The God that tells you not to bang the neighbor's wife is different than the "unicorn God" Kolesar Mar 2013 #51
There is definitely a significant difference between the scientific community cbayer Mar 2013 #20
They have "faith" that these things work skepticscott Mar 2013 #34
There's a big difference in belief in God muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #18
Agree and I don't find that surprising at all. cbayer Mar 2013 #25
Who exactly made this claim? Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #12
A lovely dispatch of a straw man. trotsky Mar 2013 #13
It's also a big, fat myth skepticscott Mar 2013 #15
Is it a myth the liberal atheists are sarcastic jackasses? Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #33
You need to turn on skepticscott Mar 2013 #36
I make no pretenses about... Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #38
Turn the irony meter skepticscott Mar 2013 #41
Yeah. I think I'm recognizing a doooooozie! Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #42
I know plenty of religious scientists--and I don't know a single atheist who is "anti-wonder"-- Moonwalk Mar 2013 #16
Moonwalk, longship Mar 2013 #21
Great post and I agree with much of what you say, cbayer Mar 2013 #26
Someone actually wrote a whole book skepticscott Mar 2013 #32
I would like to point out Drale Mar 2013 #28
Fascinating POV, Drale. cbayer Mar 2013 #30
A Free Thinker Drale Mar 2013 #37
Part of the problem with the atheist/theist divide is that so many people, cbayer Mar 2013 #39
Its not an atheist/theist divide in his case, but more religious/irreligious divide... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #56
Again, further argument for why the simplistic labels become increasingly cbayer Mar 2013 #57
At least humanism is a coherent ethical philosophy and worldview, neither atheism or theism... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #58
Of course the one you believe in is a coherent ethical philosophy to you, cbayer Mar 2013 #59
I find it more coherent than what I was raised in, a variation of... Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #62
Makes sense. cbayer Mar 2013 #63
And atheist an theist can co-exist in the same congregation Meshuga Mar 2013 #68
Just one example from first hand experience, fwiw - my uncle. pinto Mar 2013 #29
Sounds like a fascinating guy. cbayer Mar 2013 #35
Since you acknowledge that skepticscott Mar 2013 #40
I don't think he did either. From our talks he seemed to find it a non-issue. pinto Mar 2013 #44
Proving once again that apples fall from apple trees, because you are a lot like him. cbayer Mar 2013 #46
The reality is that one need only find one credible, religious scientist to flush the entire myth. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #43
Agree. It's just a meme that no true scientist could find data to back up. cbayer Mar 2013 #47
The reality is skepticscott Mar 2013 #49
Woohoo! We have permission to proceed. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #50
Yes, you have "permission" skepticscott Mar 2013 #52
The obscure references in the first two paragraphs made for a bad read Kolesar Mar 2013 #53
Feel free to do whatever you want, lol! cbayer Mar 2013 #55
scientists being religious, and the compatibility of science and religion Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #64
I don't think they are entirely separate at all. cbayer Mar 2013 #69
I've got news for you: Zoeisright Mar 2013 #70
Who in the world dismissed science? cbayer Mar 2013 #72
Only an idiot would believe in this "myth" in the first place. Evoman Mar 2013 #71
 

RedstDem

(1,239 posts)
1. I wouldnt trust a scientist that's religious
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:14 PM
Mar 2013

logic is the most important part of science, and logic alone kills off religion...

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. Did you read the article?
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:20 PM
Mar 2013

Let me ask you this. Do you have any doctors? Do you know if they are religious or not?

 

RedstDem

(1,239 posts)
5. yeah, I read it
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:31 PM
Mar 2013

all I said was I wouldn't trust a scientist that believes in made up shit.

sorry if I offend, that's just my opinion.
also, everyone is atheist to a certain degree.

everyone that believes in their god, at the same time doesn't believe in the hundred or so other gods that others do believe in.

So I just don't believe in one additional god than most believer's think are fake.

lol

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. You do offend and you have no more evidence that it is made up shit
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:35 PM
Mar 2013

than those who say it's true.

But you do have some of the talking points down.

Welcome to the religion group. I would encourage you to keep an open mind and be civil. There are a wide variety of believers/non-believers here and each has a unique and individual perspective. Yours is one and it is valuable.

 

RedstDem

(1,239 posts)
9. thank you
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:43 PM
Mar 2013

I do not mean to offend, I'm sorry.

and the whole, I only don't believe in one more god than you don't believe in is a talking point.

but its a pretty good one dontcha think?
lol

I'm just teasing.
I apologize again, for the teasing...

now how the hel..heck did I find my way into the religion group?

wait, don't say it!

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
11. First off, you have no idea how many gods I may or may not believe in.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:02 PM
Mar 2013

There are people who are religionists in the same way that a man can be a feminist, if you know what I mean.

Lol - were you guided by some force to the religion group? It can be a fun place to learn about how others think.

As to the talking point about everyone being an atheist, I reject it. There is a huge gaping grey area between being a pure theist and an atheist.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
61. If I were to alert on everything that was merely offensive, I
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 08:37 PM
Mar 2013

would be alerting all day long.

Which I'm not.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,368 posts)
22. You'd hope any doctor would leave the religious belief at home, though
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:52 PM
Mar 2013

If my doctor said "maybe you got better because of a miracle", or "get your family and friends to pray for you", I'd look for another.

Logic requires the doctor to suspend their belief in miracles and prayer while doing their job. Similarly, a scientist can't use 'God did it' in a discussion of results.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
23. I think that most religious scientists also leave their beliefs at home.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:59 PM
Mar 2013

I know there are those that don't and there are also doctors who don't, but I agree with you that it is pretty inappropriate to try and mix the two when doing your job.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
66. If there is no conflict between science, reason
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 10:55 PM
Mar 2013

and evidence-based inquiry on the one hand, and religion on the other, why should there be a problem mixing the two anywhere?

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
4. newton, when he wasn't inventing modern physics, was an amazing nutjob.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:29 PM
Mar 2013

He also did a pretty good job on the english treasury, but his other pursuits were, um, odd.

 

Phillip McCleod

(1,837 posts)
65. with galileo it bothers me that he was imprisoned sure
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 10:22 PM
Mar 2013

though he had no inkling of the theological implications of his theory it was because he just didn't think that way. if he was a believer it was because everyone was a believer then or you ended up much worse than galileo. would it surprise you if his incarceration had a private effect on his faith, which he could not because of his imprisonment make public? knowing what we know of the ***brutally oppressive history*** of the roman catholic church?

Big Blue Marble

(5,151 posts)
24. Of course many of the early scientists were religious.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:59 PM
Mar 2013

You know the ones who built the foundation of today's science.

The deep thinkers of earlier times were able to use logic and
have reverence for the unknowable.

Does it occur to you that your response may be based on a form
of bigotry?

Silent3

(15,281 posts)
67. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:55 AM
Mar 2013

Yet he wrote eloquently about freedom. Lincoln probably would have gone apoplectic if he'd ever had a daughter and she'd wanted to marry a black man.

People are products of their times. They might have great ideas, great insights, and great internal contradictions at the same time. I see theistic thinking as a contradiction to scientific thinking that many scientist have nevertheless been able to work around.

Further, "reverence for the unknowable" is not the same as belief in deities.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
31. I had a Sunday school teacher who worked on the Manhattan Project as a nuclear physicist.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:08 PM
Mar 2013

My brother is a highly religious computer scientist. Universities have plenty examples of excellent scientists who are religious, many of whom are wonderful friends.

Although I am not a big believer myself, I have no problem accepting them and their beliefs.

You should try it...

 

RedstDem

(1,239 posts)
45. I am very accepting of people of faith
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:43 PM
Mar 2013

What i should have written, is I wouldn't trust a scientist that believes the fables within religion, or the bible to be more exact, belief in and of itself of a higher power is not a problem.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
54. That is quite different.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:45 PM
Mar 2013

The people that I listed in my response to you consider the Bible to be an earlier version of Aesop's fables -- great stories with lessons for life but not to be taken literally.

longship

(40,416 posts)
10. I have a few problems with this.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 12:45 PM
Mar 2013

First, there's this:

It's ironic that the public engagement with the science crowd is so pro-wonder, because they're so anti-religion.


Ironic? Really!? Why would that be?

Apparently Eliane Glaser has bought into the believers' rubbish that one has to believe in God in order to have a numinous-like experience from the universe. Certainly, that is an opinion that will pretty much piss off many a non-believer, or at minimum having them doing a face palm.

The other issue is that the vast proportion of PhD scientists are indeed non-believers. Not all of them wear their unbelief on their sleeves, like Dawkins. Many, if not most, probably don't think much about it, let alone take a public stand. Of course, believers may interpret this silence as approval which is not necessarily true.

On the whole, I see this article as doing little to advance any discussion on these matters, especially as its premises are demonstrably incorrect.

One does not need religion to be awed by nature. Most scientists are indeed non-believers, whether the theists like it or not.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. While the numbers of non-believers in the scientific community is certainly
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:11 PM
Mar 2013

significantly higher than the general public, it is far from the "vast proportion" according to what I have read.

Here is a good article:

http://www.annarbor.com/faith/science-vs-religion-what-are-scientists-religious-beliefs/

The point for me is that these are two different things that are not at all mutually exclusive.

The "wonder" issue is an interesting topic. Most people's understanding of science is very limited and they have to accept scientific finding as some sort of leap of faith, as they do not have the tools to assess the validity of the methods or findings.

This is a particular problem due to the internet, where many otherwise rational people accept anything that is put out there as a scientific finding as fact. I hear it every day - people use completely bad science as fact because they read it on the internet.

longship

(40,416 posts)
17. It depends upon the discipline.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:38 PM
Mar 2013

In physics, the proportion of unbelievers is very high; in biology, still high, but not so much. The average of all scientists, only a third believe in God. I don't know how anybody can claim that that's a high percentage. Here's a typical study (from Pew):

http://www.pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Scientists-and-Belief.aspx

In short, it is a fact that working scientists generally are not God believers. The reasons for this should be obvious.

On the Internet issue, you are oh so correct. There is so much woo and pseudoscience that it scares me. People will apparently believe anything, if it is presented with authority. Ironically, scientists above all must learn to distrust authority to be successful. That's one lesson that most people have not learned. The only valid authority is nature herself! It certainly isn't a person in a pulpit or even somebody with a Nobel medal.

SwissTony

(2,560 posts)
19. Depends on what's being measured.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:42 PM
Mar 2013

What if one-third of scientists believed in unicorns. I'd find that to be appallingly high.

SwissTony

(2,560 posts)
48. To you and me, nothing.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:47 PM
Mar 2013

But in our society, belief in God is "acceptable" while belief in unicorns is not.

longship stated in his/her post that "I don't know how anybody can claim that that's a high percentage". Actually, *I* would. My point about unicorns was an attempt to indicate that it is.

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
51. The God that tells you not to bang the neighbor's wife is different than the "unicorn God"
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:24 PM
Mar 2013

It's an inner voice of morality and it's also a voice of assurance giving us confidence to deal with the tyrants and psychos that we have to deal with daily. I used to do that shit; now I am a seasoned skeptic.

Sorry about using the "second person" reference.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. There is definitely a significant difference between the scientific community
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:46 PM
Mar 2013

and the general public. I can't dispute that. But there is also some significant overlap. Those that overlap would be an interesting group to talk to, imo.

I hope children are being taught how to evaluate internet information in a scientific way. Things like peer reviewed studies, basic statistics and critical reading would go a long way in helping stem the tide of bogus information out there.

I have friends spending a fortune on supplements and other quackery. When I take the time to go over the "data" they are using to support this, they are sometimes grateful, but often they just insist that what they have read is true.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
34. They have "faith" that these things work
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:12 PM
Mar 2013

and personal experience and testimonials on top of that. Who are you to tell them that their "faith" is foolish and misguided? That smacks of sheer bigotry.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,368 posts)
18. There's a big difference in belief in God
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:40 PM
Mar 2013
A glaring difference between elite scientists and other Americans comes when asked about belief in God, Ecklund finds. Almost all Americans believe in God. But only a third of elite scientists believe in some sort of God.


I think those figures come from Pew: http://www.pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Scientists-and-Belief.aspx

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
13. A lovely dispatch of a straw man.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:09 PM
Mar 2013

I don't know of anyone who has insisted all scientists are "religion-hating atheists" so I'm not sure why this was a "myth" that had to be busted.

Well, I guess right-wing fundies probably see scientists as that, but I don't think this hit piece was targeted at them.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
15. It's also a big, fat myth
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:17 PM
Mar 2013

that all liberal and progressive Christians are smarmy, condescending assholes.

Now we've cleared up two myths in one thread. Better, yes?

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
33. Is it a myth the liberal atheists are sarcastic jackasses?
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:10 PM
Mar 2013

No doubt there are examples of them that are nice people.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
38. I make no pretenses about...
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:16 PM
Mar 2013

.... not being an asshole or a jackass. That's why it is so easy for me to recognize one.

Moonwalk

(2,322 posts)
16. I know plenty of religious scientists--and I don't know a single atheist who is "anti-wonder"--
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:34 PM
Mar 2013

...though I do know many religious people who are so all-fire eager to find atheists to be hypocrites that if an atheist says the word "wonder," the religious person will jump all over them. No atheist worth listening to is unaware that any human being can have what is commonly called a numinous experience--meaning a moment of "Wow" when looking at a distant galaxy or a beautiful sunrise. But it's hardly surprising that certain religious types insist that, like morality, a belief in the divine is necessary to experience such things. It's yet another way to scare people into not being atheists--"You'll lose your sense of wonder!"

Such religious groups also tend to use the "scientists are atheists" meme as a way of keeping their members from learning anything outside of what the religion wants them to believe (i.e. thinking and researching things for themselves). The stereotype of the atheist scientist isn't, after all, new. Look at all the old movies where the scientist "plays at being god" and something horrible happens. The message: godly folk stay away from science! Knowledge is dangerous and god doesn't want you to think. This has always been a way for certain religious groups to keep their followers believing only what the "church" tells them.

I had presumed, however, that those of us who actually read and research and are informed (theists and atheists) would know better: that science won't turn you atheist any more than gay marriage will turn you homosexual. Apparently not if someone felt the need to write an essay assuring us well-informed thinking types (who else would be reading it?) that scientists can believe in god. It's doubly sad that you felt this essay needed to be posted on the DU--do we really need to be told something so friggin' obvious? If so, how very tragic for us.

If we here on the DU can't think of anything better to argue about than whether a scientist who finds a cure for cancer has the ability to believe in god or not--then we might as well pack our bags and give into the climate change. I really thought we were better informed than that--or at least that a scientist's religious belief (or lack thereof) shouldn't matter to us.

longship

(40,416 posts)
21. Moonwalk,
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 01:49 PM
Mar 2013

I am pretty much with you.

Until you wondered why this was posted here on DU...

Well, it was posted in the Religion forum which puts articles like this well within DU scope. In fact, this is a topic which is common here, which is why such things usually get some good response.


cbayer

(146,218 posts)
26. Great post and I agree with much of what you say,
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:03 PM
Mar 2013

particularly that someone's religious beliefs or lack of beliefs shouldn't matter.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
32. Someone actually wrote a whole book
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:08 PM
Mar 2013

addressing that topic, called Unweaving the Rainbow.

Of course, it was Richard Dawkins, so a lot of people will simply dismiss it as the bigoted rantings of a boor.

Drale

(7,932 posts)
28. I would like to point out
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:06 PM
Mar 2013

that one does not have to be an atheist to hate religion. I hate religion, and believe it is the root of much evil in this world but I also believe in God and heaven and hell.

Drale

(7,932 posts)
37. A Free Thinker
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:13 PM
Mar 2013

I was raised and confirmed catholic but never really felt at home there, and when I started paying attention to the world around me I saw more and more hate justified by religion and I just could not do it anymore. I would say I'm more of a deist, that is God set everything in motion at the beginning of time but has left it to work on its own since then. I don't need a guy in a funny hat telling me that if I don't live my life to his commands I'm going to burn in hell and I don't need to sit in a building listening to the same stories over and over.

On a side note: Its very odd, I hate religion but I am fascinated by church architecture. I love old Churches and when I was in Europe I probably saw more Churches than anything else.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
39. Part of the problem with the atheist/theist divide is that so many people,
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:17 PM
Mar 2013

like yourself, can't align themselves with the either/or definition. And those are often the same people who can't subscribe to an organized religion.

I also love religious architecture and much of the ritual. I had the great fortune to go to Istanbul last year, and the calling to prayer from the multitude of mosques caused me to cry. I don't know why, but it was one of the most moving experiences I have ever had.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
56. Its not an atheist/theist divide in his case, but more religious/irreligious divide...
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:07 PM
Mar 2013

Being either an atheist or theist isn't a predictor on an individual level that you are religious or not. Quite a few atheists follow some of the non-theistic religions, and hence are religious, and quite a few theists(deism is a subset of that) follow no religion, quite a few of the so called "unchurched" are an example of this.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
57. Again, further argument for why the simplistic labels become increasingly
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:09 PM
Mar 2013

irrelevant as one looks at an individual.

You have labeled yourself as one thing in your screen name, but I suspect you are many other things as well.

It's one of the things I find most interesting about religion/spirituality/theism, etc.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
58. At least humanism is a coherent ethical philosophy and worldview, neither atheism or theism...
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 04:36 PM
Mar 2013

are those. Now, to be more specific I'm a secular humanism, by default, because I don't have religion, however, there are religious humanists, because humanism, in general, isn't exclusive.

People make assumptions about an extremely narrow topic, theism, because they broaden it out, erroneously, to other topics that have no bearing on the position itself. Usually this is related to the larger culture, people assume if someone says they believe in a god, its the Christian god, at least in the United States, if you asked someone in India, the answer would be distinctly different.

Its a very narrow topic, and people's positions on that topic aren't very descriptive on a personal level. You can even be a theist towards a particular god and not worship them, because those are two different things. Maltheists would be an example of this, they are theists, yes, but they also think god is a bastard who doesn't deserve worship.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
59. Of course the one you believe in is a coherent ethical philosophy to you,
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 05:10 PM
Mar 2013

When I read it, it doesn't mean much to me at all.

But it describes your world view, which is fine.

I don't limit theism to the christian god at all. All it means to me is that someone believes in a god or gods. I generally anticipate that if I ask someone to expand on that, I will get a different answer from pretty much everyone. Even the ones who believe in a distinct, say christian, god.

And then there is the concept of apatheism - those that don't know and don't care if there is a god at all.

For me the bottom line is this - everyone gets to define themselves and those that assume to understand what each individual see/believes in without asking more questions are missing the boat.

Except of course, if those people wear their definitions on their sleeve, when one might need to ask much at all.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
62. I find it more coherent than what I was raised in, a variation of...
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 09:39 PM
Mar 2013

"Divine command theory". Pretty much whatever the Church says goes when it comes to morals and that is considered good by God. Led to a lot of cognitive dissonance.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
63. Makes sense.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 09:53 PM
Mar 2013

I was raised in a completely different kind of church, so my perspective is understandably very different.

Interesting, isn't it?

Meshuga

(6,182 posts)
68. And atheist an theist can co-exist in the same congregation
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:57 AM
Mar 2013

Judaism is a great example of that since certain belief is not a focus of the religion. You could have a reform Jew who believes in a personal God and an Orthodox Jew who sees god as an abstract idea which would probably be considered atheistic in the Christian concept. My grandfather was an example of the latter. He was an orthodox rabbi who did all the religious stuff but one would consider him as being non-theistic when it came to a personal god idea that most think of when the word "god" is uttered.

The whole thing regarding religion and theism is pretty complex but many times simplified in discussions because we all tend to assume according with our own experiences and background. And because of that, we have people talking past each other.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
29. Just one example from first hand experience, fwiw - my uncle.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:06 PM
Mar 2013

He was a scientist, artist and member of the Unitarian Church. Saw little conflict with all three of those aspects of his life.

Though raised a Catholic, he chose to join a local Unitarian church for its more open, inclusive approach to spirituality. And its history - founded by Charles Follen, a vocal New England abolitionist and the last ministerial position of the poet Ralph Waldo Emerson.

He was a mathematician at Lincoln Lab. Worked on the team that plotted the Apollo space missions. A decidedly precise and logical undertaking. And one that he said filled him with awe those times he stepped back from the day-to-day calculations the projects demanded.

Lincoln inevitably and increasingly took on VietNam War projects. His team included. Personal ethics, politics and the support of his church - which was openly opposing the war at that time - led to his resignation from the position. Moved on to a second career in art education.

While he missed the team environment at Lincoln, personally, he saw the progression of events as seamless and inclusive of all three of those aspects of his life.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
35. Sounds like a fascinating guy.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:12 PM
Mar 2013

Having been in both religious and scientific communities at various points in my life, I never really thought there was a conflict at all. In fact, I don't think I had ever heard the argument made for a conflict until I started posting in this group.

But I still maintain that they are completely different things and that no conflict need exist unless one tries to deny science with religious beliefs or deny religion based on scientific beliefs.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
40. Since you acknowledge that
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:19 PM
Mar 2013

"no conflict need exist unless one tries to deny science with religious beliefs", then you acknowledge that a conflict DOES exist, since this is happening all the time.

And there are no scientific "beliefs" that are used to deny religion. Just your latest attempt to paint a false equivalency.

Btw, on what basis do you deny the religious belief of creationism, to the point where you feel justified in calling creationists "a bunch of dumbasses"?

pinto

(106,886 posts)
44. I don't think he did either. From our talks he seemed to find it a non-issue.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:42 PM
Mar 2013

One didn't justify nor deny the other. And personal choices were separate from professional choices for the most part. His personal standards were his and his alone. There was no need to apply them to anyone else, one way or the other.

 

Buzz Clik

(38,437 posts)
43. The reality is that one need only find one credible, religious scientist to flush the entire myth.
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:30 PM
Mar 2013

And there's a helluva lot more than one.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
49. The reality is
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 02:57 PM
Mar 2013

that it was never a "myth" to begin with. Just a silly straw man invention by someone who had a deadline to meet and needed column inches.

But if you can show us where this "myth" has been promulgated, by all means, do so.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
52. Yes, you have "permission"
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:35 PM
Mar 2013

to back up your horseshit claim that this was ever a "myth" that needed to be flushed in the first place..and to do it with facts. Have at it..or aren't facts your thing?

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
53. The obscure references in the first two paragraphs made for a bad read
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:38 PM
Mar 2013

Paragraph four was pathetic for that matter.

Am I supposed to spend my afternoon researching Brian Cox or D:Ream CD?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
55. Feel free to do whatever you want, lol!
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 03:46 PM
Mar 2013

I found the article interesting and there are links in the original so looking at the sources is pretty easy.

But, hey, if it's not your flavor, that's ok.

 

Phillip McCleod

(1,837 posts)
64. scientists being religious, and the compatibility of science and religion
Mon Mar 4, 2013, 10:15 PM
Mar 2013

are two separate questions. that the author failed from the outset to grasp this utterly mundane factoid is reason enough to not click on the link, as advised.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
69. I don't think they are entirely separate at all.
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 12:33 PM
Mar 2013

If an individual can comfortably be both religious and scientific, than I think it can be extrapolated that the two concepts are compatible in general.

Don't click on the link if you don't want to, but I found it a pretty good article.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
70. I've got news for you:
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 01:09 AM
Mar 2013

Anyone who doesn't think science is wonderful is a fucking idiot. You are typing on a computer because of science, able to communicate with others because of science, alive past the age of 30 because of science, able to live through diseases because of science, and on and on and on. Every single thing in your modern life is there because of science.

Scientists know that religion has not accomplished one thing and has in fact stymied science and progress throughout the years. And the scientists I know KNOW that life itself is incredibly wonderful in fact. There's no need to mysticize it.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
72. Who in the world dismissed science?
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 12:23 PM
Mar 2013

What exactly are you on about?

"Scientists know" is a bout as a broad a statement as one could make. They are by no means monolithic and many are also religious.

Evoman

(8,040 posts)
71. Only an idiot would believe in this "myth" in the first place.
Thu Mar 7, 2013, 11:10 AM
Mar 2013

The same people that believe those atheist professor emails, probably.

Of course there are religious scientists. Duh. Of course not all scientists hate religion. Double duh. Who the fuck ever claimed otherwise?

If this myth was ever propagated, it was probably done so by religious leaders that hate science and scientists. They want to scare people away from science. Because the truth seems to be that if you are taught science and embrace it, your chances of being a faithful believer decrease. You can be a religious scientist, but it becomes harder....harder to reconcile faith with the scientific method, harder to suppress applying what you know about evolution to religious origin stories.

When I was in grad school, the majority of other grad students in physics, biology and chemistry who I knew personally were not religious. Some of them were vaguely "spiritual", but few were outright religious. But religious scientists did exist. One of the biologists was actually Mormon.

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