Religion
Related: About this forumCouples 2nd faith-healing baby death
HILADELPHIA (AP) - A Philadelphia couple - serving 10 years' probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor - has violated their probation now that another of their children has died.
Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith-healing
Philadelphia Judge Benjamin Lerner said at a hearing they violated the most important condition of their probation: to seek medical care for their remaining children.
Authorities have yet to file criminal charges in the death of the 8-month-old boy last week, after he suffered with diarrhea and breathing problems for days. But charges could be filed once authorities pinpoint how the baby died.
The couple is on probation after pleading guilty to involuntary manslaughter in 2011 in the death of their 2-year-old son, Kent, from pneumonia.
Read more: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/04/herbert-and-catherine-schaible-faith-healing-death-of-baby-87839.html#ixzz2RISSLiAu
Sekhmets Daughter
(7,515 posts)above the welfare of your children! Heartbreaking.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)have no problem telling these people, through the Pennsylvania Code and through the courts, that their parental duties include medical care:
CHAPTER 3490. PROTECTIVE SERVICES
§ 3490.4. Definitions.
... The term child abuse means any of the following ... (D) Serious physical neglect by a perpetrator constituting prolonged or repeated lack of supervision or the failure to provide the essentials of life, including adequate medical care, which endangers a childs life or development or impairs the childs functioning ...
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/055/chapter3490/chap3490toc.html#3490.4.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Anything to exonerate these people's religious beliefs from playing any role whatsoever in this repeated tragedy, eh?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)stuff like this: "Medical insurance, hospital fees, and prescription costs today are enormous but a believer receives healing for free" ; see link in #4
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Do you believe this couple's religious beliefs (that healing could only come from god) are at least PARTIALLY responsible for their children's deaths?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)as does removal of the remaining children to foster care. It also seems reasonable to me to wonder whether the high costs of health care deter some people from seeking appropriate professional help when warranted
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I understand why you don't want to answer it, because your position is indefensible.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Or just a pitiful desperation tactic. I merely asked you if you thought the couple's religious beliefs were at least partly responsible for what happened to their children. Either you believe they were (you would answer "yes" or you don't ("no" . It's not a trick question.
Like I said, I fully understand why you won't answer, and any further attempts at coyness, or additional smileys, will simply expose your true motives more.
If we refuse to acknowledge the role of religious beliefs in atrocities committed by humans, we won't learn a thing, and we will continue to enable the violence. I am sorry you would rather deny reality than admit there is any crack in your precious beliefs.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)they still would have prayed instead of taking their kids to the doctor?
Okey doke.
Yes, of course I see the semantic game you're playing. People are responsible for their actions. But the belief that prayer will heal anything is dangerous and wrong, AND it contributed to the deaths of these children. Some beliefs are harmful and that is a simple fact.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)The parents belief in prayer only healings ("they" in my post) is the primary reason for the deaths of the children. Both children may have died with medical treatment, it does happen, but not seeking medical treatment contributed directly to their deaths.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)And thanks for admitting that religion was the reason these kids died.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)And drop the constant accusations that someone is trying to be deceptive, it makes people wonder if maybe that's your problem not those that respond to you.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)They didn't get medical treatment because their parents didn't take them to the doctor.
Their parents didn't take them to the doctor because they believed god would heal the children, and that not trusting him to do so is a sin.
Insult me all you want - I've come to expect such behavior from Christians like yourself. Clearly there is nothing in your religion that requires you to be nice to others. Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps would be proud.
But you won't change the fact that religion is responsible for the deaths of these children.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)As far as being nice to people we are expected to love all even our enemies and I hold no ill will towards you but if you expect me to not state the truth and correct you when I post then don't respond.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Yet you posted direct slams on my intelligence. What exactly did I do to deserve being treated like that? Perhaps you could act like Christians are supposed to act (or so I've heard - so few I've met actually do, even here on DU where the allegedly "liberal" and "tolerant" ones hang out) and apologize?
I'm glad you agree with me after all. Maybe next time you don't need to personally attack me to express your agreement.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)You should live so long.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But whatever justification you need to give for treating me the way you did is fine. I would have been shocked to see you "turn the other cheek" or behave any better.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)And no I will not teach you, do your own study I'm sure you can find the resources needed. While you're at it also study "reap what you sow" it my help you to understand your problem.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But thanks for clarifying the type of Christian you are. (Not that I had any doubts before.)
Leontius
(2,270 posts)it's a common trait just like certain other issues and images that define the type.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Have a blessed day, and may the peace and love of Jesus help you to be a better person!
Leontius
(2,270 posts)You however, well sorry about your luck.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Take care, buddy!
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)There *are* valid criticisms of "religion" in general rather than of a specific belief.
You, however, are not making one.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Nope. But the religious beliefs of these parents are responsible here. And putting religious beliefs on a pedestal, making them immune from criticism, contributes to this problem.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)This is what I asked:
Do you believe this couple's religious beliefs (that healing could only come from god) are at least PARTIALLY responsible for their children's deaths?
I would love for you to explain how that question "clearly" indicates my intent was to say that religion is all bad.
Go ahead. This will be fun.
On edit, please also incorporate into your explanation of my "clear" intent, how this quote of mine seeks to portray religion as "always bad": Some beliefs are harmful and that is a simple fact.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Thanks!
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Please consider it. Let's raise the tone, shall we?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Successful reproduction and gene propagation doesn't seem to be their strong suit...
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)I take it your empathy receptors are on "off" today.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Posted: Tuesday, April 23, 2013, 5:45 AM
... Herbert and Catherine Schaible told a judge in 2011 that they would never choose religion over medicine again after their 2-year-old son, Kent Schaible, died from bacterial pneumonia in 2009 ... The couple were convicted of involuntary manslaugher for Kent's death and sentenced to 10 years of probation that included strict requirements for medical care for their remaining children ... The Schaibles had not been charged as of Monday night ... <Judge Benjamin> Lerner said the couple "knowingly, intentionally, hypocritically and callously violated" the most important term of their probation. But he did not detain them Monday because their remaining seven children already had been removed from the home by the Department of Human Services ... "Medical insurance, hospital fees, and prescription costs today are enormous," one passage says, "but a believer receives healing for free" ...
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130423_Judge_rebukes_Rhawnhurst_couple_over_death_of_another_child.html
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)their fundamentalist Christian beliefs espouse faith healing. Pennsylvania law says parents have a legal duty to protect their children's health and safety, although the law does not specify if or when medical care must be sought ...
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Schaible-Child-Death-Faith-Healing-Couple-Probation-204253321.html
Faith-Healing Couple Violates Probation With 2nd Child Death: Judge
Northeast Philadelphia parents serving 10 year probation sentence after 2009 death of son
By Dan Stamm
Tuesday, Apr 23, 2013 | Updated 10:25 AM EDT
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Schaible-Child-Death-Faith-Healing-Couple-Probation-204253321.html
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)intentionally, callously, and hypocritically" violated the most important condition of their probation: getting help for an ailing child.
"It could not be clearer from your statements that you knew he was sick several days before he died," Lerner said, "that he was getting worse and having problems with his breathing."
Lerner decided against jailing the Schaibles while he made a final judgment on the probation violations. He said the couple did not pose a flight risk or currently any harm to their seven other children, whom the city child welfare agency has placed in foster homes.
He said he would reconsider if the children were returned to their parents, or if the couple were charged in Brandon's death ...
A second child of doctor-shunning couple dies
Mike Newall, INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
Posted: Monday, April 22, 2013, 10:08 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130422_A_second_child_of_doctor-shunning_couple_dies.html
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)of the investigation but said the terms of the Schaibles' probation were clear. "All of the children in their care had to have regular doctor's appointments and visits," she said Friday, "and if a child was sick, they were required to consult a medical practitioner and follow their recommendations and advice to the letter" ...
Couple under investigation in second child death
By Mike Newall, Inquirer Staff Writer
Posted: April 22, 2013
http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-22/news/38712313_1_schaibles-faith-healing-child
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Herbert and Catherine Schaible, faith-healing death of baby
By The Associated Press
April 23, 2013 - 09:13 am
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/04/herbert-and-catherine-schaible-faith-healing-death-of-baby-87839.html#ixzz2RISSLiAu
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that you believe in a "higher power", you meant Google. It certainly seems to be your tool of choice for obfuscation and distraction...
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)words in my mouth
If the story is actually worthwhile to discuss, perhaps it is worthwhile collecting some information about it, which I did in posts #4, #5, #6, #7, and #8
Should you be unable to assimilate the information I have provided, perhaps you might allow me to assemble it for you:
Pennsylvania law says parents have a legal duty to protect their children's health and safety. Herbert and Catherine Schaible told a judge in 2011 that they would never choose religion over medicine again after their 2-year-old son, Kent Schaible, died from bacterial pneumonia in 2009. The couple were convicted of involuntary manslaugher for Kent's death and sentenced to 10 years of probation that included strict requirements for medical care for their remaining children. A spokeswoman for the District Attorney's Office .. said the terms of the Schaibles' probation were clear. "All of the children in their care had to have regular doctor's appointments and visits," she said Friday, "and if a child was sick, they were required to consult a medical practitioner and follow their recommendations and advice to the letter". (Judge) Lerner said there was evidence the Rhawnhurst couple had "knowingly, intentionally, callously, and hypocritically" violated the most important condition of their probation: getting help for an ailing child. The 8-month-old boy .. suffered with diarrhea and breathing problems for days. "It could not be clearer from your statements that you knew he was sick several days before he died," (Judge) Lerner said. But he did not detain them Monday because their remaining seven children already had been removed from the home by the Department of Human Services.
If you don't like such posts, you are (of course) free to ignore them
trotsky
(49,533 posts)...in doing so. While your diligent information-gathering certainly leaves all us stupid people in awe, what you are doing is obfuscating the central issue here: that they allowed their children to die because of their religious beliefs. That's what you want to try and make sure ISN'T discussed.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)and you actually have no clue, that's pretty pathetic. Of course, if you WERE lying, that'd be pretty pathetic too.
But please, tell us exactly and specifically what "words" I put in your mouth. Are you saying you've never posted on this site that you believe in a higher power?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Now.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)What are you, some kind of militant atheist or something?
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)I would think
trotsky
(49,533 posts)struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Parents Prayed As Child Died
http://suite101.com/article/parents-prayed-as-child-died-a342887
... The Schaibles' attorneys maintain that this isn't a religious case. Despite worshiping at First Century Gospel Church, the Schaibles would have sought medical care for Kent had they known how sick he was, the attorneys said ...
Such a response, of course, might be expected: given their circumstances, illness in the family may naturally produce a fair amount of denial and wishful thinking.
Their "pastor" -- who is possibly the most educated person with whom the parents have any regular contact -- certainly hasn't helped, since he is an anti-medicine man, who brags he has never taken medicine or been to a doctor, warns that medical mistakes are the leading cause for death nowadays, and distributes materials noting that medical insurance, hospital fees, and prescription costs today are enormous, while offering free healing through prayer. Those, who are unable to afford insurance, and who are terrified by the possible costs of medical treatment, might naturally seek rationalizations for not seeking modern treatment ("it's dangerous!" and for seeking other alternatives ("it's free!"
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Because of their religious beliefs, their children are dead.
And I pointed out how the "had we known how sick he was" defense is misused.
atreides1
(16,079 posts)Why did they "knowingly, intentionally, callously, and hypocritically" violate the terms of their probation?
Could it be, because of their religous beliefs?
I don't reallly expect an answer, but something motivated them to allow another child to die...and I don't believe it was just because!
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)their little babies to suffer unnecessarily. It's despicable.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Mike Newall, Inquirer Staff Writer
Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013, 5:58 AM
Prosecutors questioned in 2011 whether the city probation department could effectively monitor the medical needs of Herbert and Catherine Schaible's children ... The department initially classified the Schaibles as "low risk" after they were sentenced to 10 years' probation in February 2011 ... At a June 2011 hearing, prosecutors voiced concerns about the department's ability to enforce court-ordered oversight of the Schaible children's medical needs, given the lack of records to show whether the children had received physical examinations ... In March 2012, Herbert Schaible provided probation with medical records showing that he had taken the children to court-ordered exams at a district health center. The family did not have medical insurance ...
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130424_Prosecutors_questioned_oversight_of_Schaibles_in_2011.html
trotsky
(49,533 posts)...
Swan has compiled a list of 28 children in Pennsylvania who died of faith-healing neglect since the 1970s.
These children would probably be alive today if not for their parents' religious beliefs. Thanks for posting more support for that notion, and strengthening my position.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Prosecutors: Pa. couple prayed, denied care to dying toddler
Posted 10/8/2009 5:45 PM
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-10-08-toddler-death_N.htm
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)By MENSAH M. DEAN, deanm@phillynews.com 215-854-5949
Posted: December 07, 2010
... First Century Pastor Clark, 69, ... said he has never taken medicine or been to a doctor ... "The leading cause for death to this day .. is medical mistakes: 783,229 deaths per year," Clark said. He said all his members can seek medical care if they want ... Pennsylvania is not among the 19 states that allow religious defenses in cases involving felony crimes against children ... The Schaibles' attorneys maintain that this isn't a religious case. Despite worshiping at First Century Gospel Church, the Schaibles would have sought medical care for Kent had they known how sick he was, the attorneys said ...
http://articles.philly.com/2010-12-07/news/25293479_1_faith-healing-faith-tabernacle-congregation-first-century-gospel-church
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It was because of their religious beliefs that they didn't seek medical care for their children. Deal with it.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If Pennsylvania, like other states, allowed religious exemptions in such cases, you better damn well believe they would be hard at work trying to prove this was a "religious case". As this is not the case in Pennsylvania, ignorant neglect is a charge decidedly preferable to murder.
Why don't we take a look at what the church says instead?
Healing - from God or Medicine?
I'm sure believing this horseshit in no way informed their decision not to seek medical treatment for their ailing child... the second fucking time around.
Your nascent denialism is beneath contempt.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)that the parents would call a doctor if any of their children became ill. "I have some concerns personally about their ability within their faith or their willingness to proactively take their children to get medical attention," attorney Mythri Jayaraman said then. Jayaraman had requested that the family be referred to Department of Human Services, court records show ...
A second child of doctor-shunning couple dies
By Mike Newall, INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
Posted: April 23, 2013
http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-23/news/38766013_1_the-schaibles-catherine-schaible-herbert-schaible
Apophis
(1,407 posts)Prayer never works and the argument "it was the parents deeply held beliefs and yadda yadda yadda" is BS.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)just fucking awful. Once is bad enough, twice? I don't really have anything to say that can be considered close to nice about the people that let their children die. Everyone gets all up in fucking arms when someone kills their kids in other ways, but always seem to find an argument for it when it's because of the parents' faith. Bullshit! They should be sterilized and spend the rest of their lives in prison.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)By Mike Newall, Inquirer Staff Writer
Posted: April 28, 2013
... he said, the children died because of some "spiritual lack" in the Schaibles' lives - a flaw they need to correct to prevent future deaths ... There is no question Herbert Schaible would turn to prayer again if any of his six other children, whose ages range from about 8 to 17, fell ill, Clark said ... College - fraught with drinking and immorality - is also not advised ... Herbert Schaible teaches seventh and eighth grade at the church school ...
http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-28/news/38880275_1_god-schaible-children-spiritual-lack
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Thanks for posting.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Parents with only ninth grade education
Lack of access to affordable health care
And for the second death, perhaps the earlier judge's choice of the wrong state agency to monitor whether the remaining children obtained regular medical attention
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Your nascent denialism is beneath contempt.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)to become for you one-dimensional: you are interested in it only insofar as it offers rhetorical opportunities serving your ideological ends, and anything remark beyond that qualifies in your view as spam
The dead children, of course, are real so the news reflects a real tragedy, and I will continue to hold the view that if the story is actually worthwhile to discuss, perhaps it is worthwhile collecting some information about it: that might enable us to understand it better, in its full complexity, and therefore might also help us formulate concepts about the world enabling us to proceed in ways that reduce the possibility of such events in the future
The difference between your view and mine is real, but you nevertheless describe it incorrectly
I see here an economically marginal family, attempting to deal with circumstances largely beyond their control, due to poor education and low socio-economic status, and in my view denial, self-rationalization, and wishful thinking are the natural result of those conditions:
The fact that these parents having only a ninth grade education attend a church that discourages its parishioners from seeking higher education seems informative to me. It also seems informative to me that these parents who have no medical insurance attend a church where the pastor brags he has never taken medicine or been to a doctor, warns that medical mistakes are the leading cause for death nowadays, and distributes materials noting that medical insurance, hospital fees, and prescription costs today are enormous
I also see some evidence of personal confusion, as the parents seem to tell different people different things in different contexts, leading to some rather different evaluations:
The parents' claim they would have taken the first child to the doctor if they had known how sick he really was and promised the judge in that case that they would never choose religion over medicine again apparently persuaded the original judge, despite the fact that one of their defense attorneys doubted that at the time
You OTOH seem have only one actual objective with this story, which is to use it as the basis for sloganeering. Therefore, your response to my efforts to learn something about the actual case and to discover what might be deduced about the parents and their world is predictable: you claim I am trying to exonerate the parents or that I am trying to obfuscate matters or that I am somehow in denial. I think the actual difference between our views is that you are ideologically motivated and I am not
trotsky
(49,533 posts)attempting to sabotage any real discussion of the 700 pound elephant in the room, the role and responsibility of religious belief in this whole affair. What you accuse me of ("sloganeering" is merely a response to your desperation to blame this incident on anything BUT religious belief. This is irresponsible and directly contributes to the privileged position that any political belief (when wedded to religion) enjoys.
When we are not able to honestly discuss the role of religion and its appropriateness as a justification in public policy and societal affairs, we all suffer. You empower the religious right and marginalize non-believers.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)*yawn* indeed.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)This is the cruelest aspect of this particular religious view. I certainly disagree with these parents' belief system, but they are most likely heartbroken that another child is dead. One of the good things about organized religion is that it provides a support system and a source of comfort to adherents of the faith. Except when it doesn't. Faith is found deficient because God saw fit to ignore their petitions. Could it be that the God they believe in is a cruel and hateful entity? It would appear so.
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)By Mike Newall, Inquirer Staff Writer
Posted: April 27, 2013
To protect the children of faith-healing parents whose beliefs had already led to the death of one child, a Philadelphia judge gave the job to the city probation department even though the prosecution and the couple's own defense lawyer warned that the agency was ill-suited for the role. Four months later, those warnings were underscored at a key 2011 hearing when probation officials balked at the job and questioned their authority to carry out the judge's order to monitor the health of the six children, according to a transcript obtained Thursday by The Inquirer ... The transcript shows the probation department was not even aware the judge had ordered it to make sure the children saw doctors. Because of a computer mishap, the terms of the order were not communicated to its staff ... After the death last week of a second Schaible son, 8-month-old Brandon, critics say the transcript raises further questions about the decision to give the probation agency - normally tasked with keeping track of criminals - the complex social-service function of monitoring the medical attention of children being raised in a family that chose prayer over medicine ...
http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-27/news/38845619_1_probation-officer-temin-transcript
struggle4progress
(118,295 posts)Mike Newall, Inquirer Staff Writer
Posted: Monday, May 6, 2013, 9:51 PM
... Neither parent objected to the city agency's supervising their children's medical and dental visits, said Jayaraman and Bobby Hoof, who represents Herbert Schaible ...
The children, who range in age from about 3 to 18, have been split up in three foster homes, Jayaraman said. One goal of future Family Court hearings will be to place all of the children in one home, she said.
The permanent custody of the children will be determined after any possible criminal charges against their parents are settled, the lawyers said ...
At Monday's hearing, <Common Pleas Court Judge Benjamin Lerner> said he would review the Schaible case at a hearing scheduled for June 6 ...
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130507_Schaible_children_get_court-ordered_medical_care.html