Fabio Martinez Castilla: Abortion is Worse Than Child Rape, Says Mexican Archbishop

[cleanhippie]

Last edited Mon May 6, 2013, 11:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Fabio Martínez Castilla, Archbishop of Tuxla Gutiérrez sparked some controversy over remarks made on Tuesday at a homily in the Metropolitan Cathedral of San Marcos, by claiming that “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

(Let's see that again for the obtuse among us:

“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

Appointed Archbishop last May by then Pope Benedict XVI, Castilla went on to clarify that both abuse and abortion “quantitatively do much harm and deserve punishment.” He is a firm believer in the Church’s stance on contraceptives and condoms as “patches” to avoid responsibility.

--snip--

Pope Benedict XVI himself sparked controversy in Latin America when, in a 2007 trip to Brazil, he insinuated that politicians who had advocated for abortion rights ought to be excommunicated from the church. “Yes, the excommunication isn’t something arbitrary — it’s part of the code,” the pope remarked.

With regard to abuse cases, though the former pope was the first to openly apologize to victims of sexual assault by priests, his message was often mixed: “In the Church, priests are also sinners. But I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign, as the percentage of these offenses among priests is not higher than in other categories, and is perhaps even lower…”

http://www.policymic.com/articles/39225/fabio-martinez-castilla-abortion-is-worse-than-child-rape-says-mexican-archbishop

“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

I've said it once if not a hundred times: It's not the pope or the bishops that are the problem now, it's the laity. It's those that continue to support this terrible institution with their time, money, and support.

[stopbush]

1. Er, because priests don't perform abortions but they do rape children?

In a related story, wife beating is worse than child rape, because priests don't have wives.

[Walk away]

2. Is abortion OK if you are a child who was raped by a Catholic Priest???

Or is that just even more serious????

[DetlefK]

3. It doesn't matter, that the percentage of perpetrators isn't unusually high.

The concept of a "priest" is defined by superiority: superior understanding of the divine, superior morals.
One bad apple, and the whole argument goes out of the window.

Why should I give preference to the opinion of a guy who is just as fallible as me?

[cleanhippie]

4. It's not the pope or the bishops that are the problem now, it's the laity.

It's those that continue to support this terrible institution with their time, money, and support.

[backscatter712]

5. Exactly.

People who continue to tithe to the Roman Catholic Church are acting as enablers.

[Phillip McCleod]

93. perhaps that's not the intent of the laity..

..but that's the practical result.

[DetlefK]

7. That's actually an interesting problem, philosophically.

If you follow the rules of Christianity too close, you end up, attempting to govern an economically and scientifically advanced society with Bronze-Age laws and morals. And then you hate gays for reasons that empirically don't make sense.

If you follow the rules of Christianity not close enough, you disregard it's laws for setting up a stable society. And start raping children.

Doomed if you do.
Doomed if you don't.

So, if only "religion light" offers a viable middle-ground, why religion at all?

[cleanhippie]

8. "...why religion at all?" Exactly. It is an outdated and obsolete framework for a lesser developed

society.

[Lordquinton]

24. Woah, back up

"If you follow the rules of Christianity not close enough, you disregard it's laws for setting up a stable society. And start raping children. "

Child Rape is not a product of not following Christianity, in fact, most major religions through out history practice pederasty or other forms, it's only in more modern times that we have decided that it might be a bad idea.

Following the rules closely leads you to stoning people for eating shrimp, and selling daughters into slavery, far cry from just "attempting to govern an economically and scientifically advanced society with Bronze-Age laws and morals." There are few rules in the bible and other holy books which allow for more than a basic tribal society, which is what the US is being reduced to.

[Goblinmonger]

6. Cue "but Dawkins said" comments

in 5, 4, 3....

[FONT COLOR="FFFFFF"]Of course said to make it sound like Dawkins made the claim and not the girl that was actually raped.[/FONT]

[Dawson Leery]

9. This is why people are leaving your filthy church.

"Pro-life" = pro zygote.
Once birth occurs, the cult of "pro-life" becomes the death cult of war, low wages, poverty, dirty air/water etc.

This is why people are leaving your piece of s**t church, along with the evangelicals.

[Lordquinton]

83. The numbers are out there, easy to find

visit planned parenthood. Unless you have info that shows most aren't.

Do you agree with him? maybe you should denounce him as not sharing your views, unless you agree that abortion is worse than rape and people who do it/have it done deserve worse punishments than child raping priests.

[Lordquinton]

85. I have nothing to apolagize for

And you, nor any other RCC member, or any religious person at all really, has come out to say anything anything to suggest that this priest said something that was his personal belief, rather than something church members agree with him on.

Zygote, embryo, let's split hairs more shall we?

[Lordquinton]

88. "Frankly, I haven't thoroughly studied the first post "

Clearly, as I didn't any of the things you claim I have said, twice now, when are you going to apolagise for that?

I have asked only one question, and folks, like yourself, have twisted and flailed to get out of answering it: Do you agree or disagree with the statement: “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.” ?

That is the only thing I have asked in this thread.

[Lordquinton]

91. This is the complex question

Do you agree “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

That is a very simple question that can, in fact be answered with a yes and/or no. I would not report anyone for answering it, just as I hope none would report me for asking it. This isn't some clever gotcha question, this is a very serious, and important question, and none here have come out and said one way or another.

Break the mold, be the first to commit yourself to your belief!

[Phillip McCleod]

95. except that *not* all catholics agree with the hierarchy on this..

..you, however, seem to agree.

tell us straight, please, are you pro-choice or anti-choice?

[Phillip McCleod]

99. fuck the bishop. i'm asking *you*. \n

[Phillip McCleod]

108. how would i know? did you see my post count? \n

[Phillip McCleod]

111. in other words, you're a pro-lifer. just say it.

don't be a coward. or maybe that's just the way it works when you're peddling apologetics for the RCC.

we're done here.

[trotsky]

114. He's baaaaaaaack.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=303477

[hrmjustin]

115. It will be taken care of.

[Phillip McCleod]

117. hm. can't say i'd ever been in that group until now. seems like..

..there's much to *learn*.

i will, of course, respect the group's autonomy. it's easy to be a good neighbor when one is a hermit.

[hrmjustin]

118. He is gone!

[Meshuga]

116. Chances are that it won't work out

Your ideology is not compatible and what happened to you earlier today will inevitably repeat itself. So why waste your time? And why not respect the decision of the site admins who made an explicit decision earlier today? You seem worried with the rules so why not respect this one simple decision?

[hrmjustin]

109. You take your chances.

Someone the other day came in and posted really conservative stuff and was banned when he crossed the line. This is a liberal political board and if you are going to post stuff from a conservative view point you should expect that you will be heavily challenged.

[Lordquinton]

96. So agreement?

I guess? No one will ever commit to it, that raping a child is not as bad as removing a group of cells.

[Meshuga]

100. The bishop sees it the same way as...

...a member who was banned earlier today. Don't you agree?

[hrmjustin]

104. He thinks you made this comment below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=78859

He does not realize he is talking to you and not the poster in the link above. I tried to correct him and we shall see how that works.

[hrmjustin]

102. The poster you are addressing did not make that comment.

This is the comment you are angry about.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=78859

You are addressing a different poster. That is why he is saying he has nothing to say sorry for. He did not say it.

[hrmjustin]

106. Mistakes happen. just make a simple correction and than address the guy you wanted to.

[rug]

10. From the link in your link:

Fabio Martínez Castilla, the Archbishop of Tuxtla Gutiérrez in Mexico’s southern state of Chiapas, said during a homily at the Metropolitan Cathedral of San Marcos that when children are sexually abused "their future is dying," but that it doesn’t compare with abortion because "it is murder."

"Qualitatively, abortion is much more serious than the rape of children by priests," Martínez Castilla said, adding though that "both quantitatively do much harm and deserve punishment."

Clarifying his comments, Martínez Castilla said that priests found molesting children should not be forgiven, but instead imprisoned and banned from the Church.

You wouldn't want to be seen as a cherrypicker.

[cleanhippie]

11. “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

[rug]

12. "priests found molesting children should not be forgiven, but instead imprisoned and banned"

[cleanhippie]

13. “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

take it up with your church leaders. They are the ones saying this. You don't want to be seen as an apologist.

[rug]

14. I guess you do not in fact mind being seen as a cherry picker.

[cleanhippie]

15. I couldn't care less about your opinion on the subject, being a cherry picker yourself.

Or have you accepted everything in your bible and everything your church decrees over the weekend?

[rug]

16. As a matter of fact I don't but I do demand accuracy in news.

[cleanhippie]

27. Maybe you should look for accuracy in your beliefs first.

YMMV.

[rug]

28. It's much more challenging to find them in your posts.

[cleanhippie]

31. You really CAN convince yourself to believe anything.

QED

[rug]

32. Simple dry clinical observation.

My conclusions are the captive of my observations.

[rug]

42. Nice edits. I encourage all to read them.

A glimpse into the mind.

[cleanhippie]

48. Merely a reflection of yourself.

[Lordquinton]

33. So, let's put this all together

“abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”
"priests found molesting children should not be forgiven, but instead imprisoned and banned"

What punishment do the mothers deserve for comiting a crime that is worse than child rape?

[rug]

34. That's an excellent question.

The answer is none.

[Lordquinton]

35. But if it's a worse crime than child rape

than the punishment should be worse, no?

[rug]

36. Only if you think he's correct.

His mistake is equating his morality with civil crimes.

[Lordquinton]

37. I don't think he's correct

which is why I'm highlighting the important part of his interview, that part where he says “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.” but when that comes up you highlight the part where he says "priests found molesting children should not be forgiven, but instead imprisoned and banned" so unless you are saying he's right, and going along with him implying that abortion should have a worse punishment than that, you should say so.

This is the problem with the RCC, they make these statements, then the followers twist in knots trying to make it sound like something other than what he actually said quite plainly (well, almost, we just have to take their word that he actually said priests should be locked up) instead of condemning them, that is why you get labeled an enabler, because you are going to such extraordinary lengths to excuse his behavior and haven't actually said he is wrong, in fact you have more than implied that you agree with him, strictly on a moral level.

[rug]

38. Would you like my labels for you?

[Lordquinton]

51. I just want one thing

and I've asked it many times in many different ways.

[cleanhippie]

54. You won't get a direct answer. It's what he does.

All obfuscation, all the time. Pretty normal for this one.

[Lordquinton]

65. I can try

persistance is key.

I really don't see how hard it is to just stand up and say the guy is wrong, if you don't want to look like an enabler, then stand up and say so when the oppertunity comes up. In fact none of the usual bigot brushers have come in and said the guy was wrong, only the folks from the A&A group.

[cleanhippie]

69. I applaud your perserverence, but eventually you will need this.

In the end, it hurts less and it's more intelligent than what you're getting.


Good luck.

[Lordquinton]

73. It's something to do

takes my mind off homework, and churns the ole noggin.

[cleanhippie]

76. I wish you better luck and results than most others have gotten.

[Lordquinton]

82. He stopped responding to me

And see post 53, the one he stopped on, very telling...

[Lordquinton]

89. Were that the case, he could end it with a simple "Yes" or "No"

Will you be the same way? or can you actually give a simple answer to a simple question?

[rug]

113. I see you're still flying around the pile. So here's your answer.

No I don't agree with the statement but not for the reasons you likely have.

It's a stupid statement comparing apples and oranges. The difference is qualitative not quantitative.

I understand grappling with nuance may interfere with your homework, especially during finals week, but do give it a try. It may actually result in a productive discussion.

[Lordquinton]

119. Almost a straight answer, Thank you

You can keep the ad homs.

[Lordquinton]

17. The clarification was not in quotes

so we don't know what he said, just that someone decided to cover his ass. Like the "Rape happens for a reason" crowd, they try to cover by clarifying "I don't know what that reason could be" as if that makes it ok, and when that unimportant bit gets left out they get to scream about how they were misquoted when the inevitable happens and sound like they aren't as cruel as they sound.

[rug]

19. It didn't have an ellipsis either.

Do you doubt he said it?

[Lordquinton]

22. Nice job trying to muddy the waters

but yea, I do doubt he said it. He may have said something to that effect, but the words matter. Like I said above, the qualifying statement was "I don't know what that reason is" not anything to actually say that rape is bad, or that they disagree, or anything else to that affect, just that they don't know the reason.

So he may have said something hinting at it, or something unrelated that they interpreted as what was stated.

Also you are completely glossing over the spot where he said: “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

Can you comment on that statement without mentioning any other part of the interview, or anything else? what is your feeling on that sentence, all I ask.

[rug]

23. You're right, words matter. All of them.

[Lordquinton]

25. Like your thoughts on that statement

What are they? Agree? disagree? Can you give us a straight answer on this one subject, just this once? Please? Pretty please with sugar on top?

[rug]

26. Sure I can.

[Lordquinton]

30. But you won't prove it

I guess that we all have to take it on faith that you don't think “abortion is much more serious than rape of children by priests.”

[skepticscott]

41. Ruggie would twist himself into a pretzel before he would give a straight answer

On whether he agrees that child rape is much more serious than abortion.

But it's amusing to watch him squirm...and fling more passive aggressive bullshit in the name of getting the last word.

[rug]

43. It's amusing to see you make your predictable personal attacks without making them directly.

Sad passive-aggressive scottie.

[skepticscott]

46. Why would I waste my time

asking you directly? Your record with regard to forthrightness and intellectual honesty doesn't make that a worthwhile endeavor.

And like so many of your ilk, you rush to label a comment on your posting behavior as a "personal attack". Victims galore.

[rug]

47. I didn't see a question just another pedictable personal attack.

But it's amusing to watch him squirm...and fling more passive aggressive bullshit in the name of getting the last word.

It's obvious why you choose to say it indirectly, scottie.

[cleanhippie]

56. It's even more amusing to see you accuse others of personal attacks while flinging personal attacks.

There is a better way: give direct answers.

But that's not what you do. You enjoy the obfuscation. Why, some might say its pathological.

[rug]

57. Well given your (unedited) remarks about my dry wife, I find that incredibly hypocritical.

The only pathology I see is in your posts. Fortunately the author remains unseen and anonymous.

[cleanhippie]

59. Your wife is dry?

:rotfl:

Uhm, okay?

[rug]

60. Go on, explain yourself.

39. Denial is not a river in Egypt. And you would be the expert on dry an clinical.

At least according to your wife.

Let's hear you explain it.

[cleanhippie]

61. You explain it, your the expert on dry and clinical.

[rug]

62. No you explain your own sexist bullshit.

Go on.

[cleanhippie]

64. bwahahahaha!

[rug]

66. I suppose that's the best you can do when confronted with your own sexist bullshit.

Go on, retreat to your smileys.

[cleanhippie]

67. Bwahahahahaha! It's more than your bullshit deserves.

You're lucky you even get laughed at!

[rug]

68. Do you think anyone takes you seriously, apart from your yellow round smiley?

I didn't know it was possible for you to become any more of a parody but there you go.

It would be funny except for the sexism.

[cleanhippie]

70. Do you think anyone takes you seriously? At all?

I didn't know it was possible for you to become any more of a parody but there you go.

It would be funny except for the child-raping priest, misogyny, and hypocrisy in your church avoidance.

[rug]

71. Oh say anything at all about the RCC. I was speaking entirely about you.

You and your sexist posting.

Talk all you want about child-raping priests and the Crusades, it will not change who you are a single iota.

[cleanhippie]

72. I was talking about you, too.

Keep avoiding the child-rape, misogyny, and hypocrisy in your church, it continues to let all know precisely who you are.

[rug]

74. Just keep poting exactly what you're posting.

It's too difficult for you to keep the sexism from slipping out no matter how many edits you try. And that's entirely from you.

[cleanhippie]

75. You keep posting exactly what you do, too!

All that apologist bullshit for child-raping priests, misogyny, and hypocrisy in yiur church comes directly from you, no matter how much you try to obfuscate it.

[rug]

77. You really don't get it.

All your blather and cartoons about child raping priests and misogyny in the church, accusing every Catholic of being an enabler and then you post that sexist bullshit right from your own fingertips. And you're called on it, ignore it, and blather on once again about child rape.

You'd be a laughingstock but no one is laughing, not even the yellow round smiley.

[cleanhippie]

78. Sorry, did you say something?

Nope. Just more of the usual!

[rug]

44. Why, I thought you could figure it out by eliminating words.

I must have been mistaken.

[Lordquinton]

53. If I were to put it together from everything you said, and refuse to say

then I would come to the conclusion that you agree with him. Not trying to insult or slam you, just answering your question, well statement. You should give it a shot.

[cleanhippie]

29. Well done. You painted him into a corner and you got the usual in return.

Pretty standard when it comes to RCC issues, especially child rape.

[rug]

45. Lol.

Remind me to never let you cook a steak.

[cleanhippie]

49. Corner. Painted in. You.

And stale, dry retorts are all you have left.

[rug]

55. Yes, the combined intellectual firepower is too much to bear.

[cleanhippie]

58. Humblebum had more intellectual firepower than you.

Maybe you should have taken notes.

[edhopper]

18. So if I said

Jaywalkers are worse than murderers, but murderers should go to jail too, that would be a perfectly good sentiment in your book.

[rug]

20. Are you comparing jaywalking to abortion?

[edhopper]

21. I am certainly not going to compare abortion to

child rape!
And when some one does, just because he says child rape is bad too, his inappropriate comparison does not get a pass.
Though it obviously does to you.

[cleanhippie]

50. Most of the horrific shit done by the RCC gets a pass from him. That's apologetics.

[Phillip McCleod]

101. even if one bothered to extend the bishop that courtesy..

..which i don't think OR believe he does, the result would be the same. he's *wrong* and both he and his followers got *nothing*.

nothing but snark and pleas to authority that nobody except fundie catholics respect.

[dimbear]

40. Settlements in RCC abuse cases now amount to 3 billion dollars, a tidy sum.

It amazes not that this needs to be downplayed.








edit: grammar challenged

[allan01]

52. re:Fabio Martinez Castilla: Abortion is Worse Than Child Rape, Says Mexican Archbishop

wonder who he will protest when males have their tubes tied ? and a single male who never mearried . isnt allowed to marry knows a wonmans body more than her . give me a break.

[HooptieWagon]

63. I assume he has first hand experience? nt

[DesertFlower]

105. really -- ask the children who were

raped by priests.