A Religion That Embraces All Religions

[cbayer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/13/us/a-religion-that-embraces-all-religions.html?_r=0


Rev. Greenebaum conducts a service in the cafeteria of Alderwood Middle School in June.

By SAMUEL G. FREEDMAN
Published: July 12, 2013

LYNNWOOD, Wash. — Clad in proper Pacific Northwest flannel, toting a flask of “rocket fuel” coffee typical of Starbucks’ home turf, Steven Greenebaum rolled his Prius into a middle school parking lot one Sunday morning last month. Then he set about transforming its cafeteria into a sanctuary and himself into a minister.

He donned vestments adorned with the symbols of nearly a dozen religions. He unfolded a portable bookshelf and set the Koran beside the Hebrew Bible, with both of them nearby two volumes of the “Humanist Manifesto” and the Sioux wisdom of “Black Elk Speaks.” Candles, stones, bells and flowers adorned the improvised altar.

Some of the congregants began arriving to help. There was Steve Crawford, who had spent his youth in Campus Crusade for Christ, and Gloria Parker, raised Lutheran and married to a Catholic, and Patrick McKenna, who had been brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness and now called himself a pagan.

They had come together with about 20 other members to celebrate the end of their third year as the congregation of the Living Interfaith Church, the holy mash-up that Rev. Greenebaum had created. Yearning for decades to find a religion that embraced all religions, and secular ethical teachings as well, he had finally followed the mantra of Seattle’s indie music scene: “D.I. Y.,” meaning “do it yourself.”

more at link

[trotsky]

1. Relevant:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/roberthunt/2013/06/interfaith-belonging-is-not-inter-religious-understanding/

The problem is that followers of Interfaith seem to make two wrong assumptions. The first is their belief that all other religions share their conviction that all humans are on a quest for God. The second is that they, as followers of Interfaith and students of different religious beliefs and practices, can actually represent these different religions. Indeed, they imagine that Interfaith is a kind of living inter-religious dialogue now properly directed to serving the universal human quest for the sacred.

Both assumptions are wrong, and because of them the Interfaith religion has a much reduced chance of creating inter-religious understanding. Indeed it seems to me that the so-called interfaith services, lectures, meditations, and so on are actually just evangelistic efforts to convert people from one of the classical religious traditions to the new Interfaith religion. This is why they receive little or no interest from actual Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists. Who wants to go to someone else’s worship to be converted to their religion?

[longship]

2. First response link has a point.

Why surround Interfaith with the unmistakable trappings of religion?

It invites the inevitable comparison as "just another religion" and certainly will be an impediment for many religious and even non-religious people.

Remove those trappings and then you have a movement that people could attend without such complaint.

As an atheist I would not likely enjoy such framing as is described in the OP. Such interfaith outreaches must also include non-believers. I don't see this doing that, let alone reaching out to anybody other than liberal sects.

Bad framing, IMHO.

[cbayer]

3. Well, this guy is actively trying to recruit or enlist people that hold

various religious or spiritual beliefs.

While he makes some good and interesting points about why, I think his low turn out (30 members after 3 years?) indicates that there is not a lot of appeal to this approach.

I think the UU's do it much better, and their rising numbers reflect that. Many non-believers do feel welcome into UU communities. I would guess that non-believers would not feel so welcome here.

While I wholeheartedly support interfaith (particularly those that include non-believers) coalitions to effect social or political change, I don't really see the point of this.

Perhaps another charlatan, like that guy in Louisiana who is heading up the atheist "church".

[longship]

4. Yup!

And when someone uses the oxymoronic "atheist church" you can predict what I would say.

As often happens here, we agree in principle.

As always.

[joShu]

5. UU is different from Interfaith

I used to attend the UU church but UU's reject the Trinity (hence, Unitarian).
Since I was Eastern Orthodox, this was fundamentally incompatible.
Actually, it was not a problem with the average UU.
But, some UUs, yes, it was a problem.

Interfaith, on the other hand, has no difficulty with that.

My experience with Interfaith is that it is very accommodating.
Atheists, Humanists, Orthodox, GLBT, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc., are all accommodated ... indeed, celebrated.
Without any hassles about converting or being converted, my team is better, Chevrolet vs Ford, etc.

Interfaith, I have found, is a good way to expand what I know without giving up what I believe.
It made me realize that no one religion / system has the whole story.
I want the whole story, or at least a bigger picture of it.

But that is just my experience and opinion.

[eomer]

6. I think the UU position on the Trinity is different than that, and more nuanced.

"Unitarian" is part of the UU name because of its history but Unitarian Universalism is not officially Unitarian (meaning belief in one indivisible God). If it were that would reject atheism just as much as Trinitarianism. The official UU position is that it doesn't have a position on this question. It welcomes people of all beliefs, which includes those who believe in the Trinity and those who believe in fewer Gods, zero Gods, or more than three Gods (or three-Gods-in-One, if you prefer).

Individual congregations, however, do sometimes have a more specific position. So there are Christian churches that are UUA members and therefore considered UU congregations, even though it would seem that their adoption of a specific belief is at odds with the UU principle I described of welcoming all beliefs.

The UU congregation where my wife and I are members is welcoming of very diverse religions, having Wiccans, Pagans, Buddhists, secular humanists, Christians, radical faeries, and maybe others that I haven't discovered yet. But the one belief that it is skittish about (but shy of rejecting) is Christianity, especially the orthodox, Trinitarian flavor. I think this is hard feelings holding over from a time in history when Unitarians (not UUs but the Unitarian predecessors to UUs) were burned at the stake if they would insist on Unitarianism and refuse to admit Trinitarianism. There was a sermon at our UU earlier this year on the burning at the stake of Unitarian Michael Servetus. Edit to add: and hard feelings over multitudinous other ways that orthodox Christianity was oppressive throughout its history.

So there is some sentiment against the Trinity at the same time that some segments are officially Trinitarian. It's a complex relationship between the UUs and Christianity; rejection isn't exactly the way to describe it.

[deutsey]

32. For some interesting info on UU's Unitarian predecessors

Here's a link for the Manual of Unitarian Belief published in the 1880s by James Freeman Clarke. Some interesting things in it:

http://www.americanunitarian.org/manual.htm

[cbayer]

7. Welcome to DU, joShu and thanks for the information.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. As a non-believer, I have no idea

what any organization like this could offer me to 'reach out' to me in the first place. Attending would be like going through the motions of a religious service. What the hell do I need that for? What would I gain from it? What could I offer?

[cbayer]

9. Perhaps it's not you they are reaching out to.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. "Such interfaith outreaches must also include non-believers."

Not my specification.

I am asking, what would they 'outreach' to me for? (Being a non-believer)

[cbayer]

12. You don't represent all non-believers.

There has been a growing number of "congregations" that are exclusively filled with non-believers or included both believers and non-believers. The reasons these groups are becoming more numerous is because there are non-believers that value some of the things that churches have traditionally offered.

You, otoh, apparently do not value those things, so they are not reaching out to you.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. I don't purport to represent all non-believers.

But I am inclusive of that set. Longship did not specify any particular qualities in that superset, so I am asking that poster. I don't think it's for you to dismiss me or define that poster's intent.

[cbayer]

14. You are in the superset but not in the set of who they are reaching out to.

It's for me to respond to anything you post here if I choose to, but you don't have to respond back.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. You are making a positive claim.

That I am not an outreach target. Please support that claim.

Keep in mind, I have met Rev. Greenebaum in person. (If briefly)

[cbayer]

16. You are not interested, that's why.

What did you think of Rev. Greenebaum?

[AtheistCrusader]

17. I am not interested in Mormonism either, but that doesn't stop them from knocking on my door

every other weekend. Clearly they view me as a potential recruit/worth reaching out to. You have not supported your claim. (The poster I asked that question of, OR representatives of the interfaith movement are really the only people who can authoritatively answer that question anyway, I don't know why you are trying.)

Greenebaum is an interesting person.

[cbayer]

18. So what? Tell them to go away.

You are not open to it and that's completely within your rights.

There are billboards that promote atheism. Clearly not everyone that sees them are their target audience, but they are throwing a big net in the hopes of reaching those that are.

Same thing.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. I didn't ask for your advice on what to do about them.

You still haven't answered that question to Longship, and you haven't supported your claim that they are not reaching out to me, specifically. I can't picture how exactly you could possibly claim to have any idea. Are you a leader in this Interfaith movement? Have you spoken to them about their membership or outreach goals?

I asked three questions, of which you have not answered any, nor do you have apparent standing to do so.

"What the hell do I need that for?"
"What would I gain from it?"
"What could I offer?"

[cbayer]

20. Ok, then. Ask Rev. Greenebaum.

I wouldn't waste a moment trying to recruit you because

I don't think you need it at all.

I don't think you would gain a thing.

I don't think you have anything to offer.

Did he try to reach out to you?

[AtheistCrusader]

21. We were not in the same room for that particular purpose.

So the subject did not come up.

So, you have supported where *you* stand. That's fine, but does nothing to illuminate why you presumed to speak for them. You were doing ok, when you suggested 'perhaps' they were not reaching out to me. But next post you went too far: "You, otoh, apparently do not value those things, so they are not reaching out to you."

Edit: In my experience, people of faith tend to reach out to non-believers no matter HOW vehemently they reject the associated faith. The people reaching out have their reasons for doing so, regardless of my receptivity.

[cbayer]

22. This guy is trying to put together an interfaith group, though not very successfully, imo.

I would suspect that he is reaching out to people that are also interested in this.

Your experience is valid, but most people of faith don't reach out at all in my experience. Those that do are often really obnoxious.

Yesterday i was sitting on a bench waiting for someone and a guy sat down next to me with a "Jesus is the way" t-shirt on. I "prayed" that he would not talk to me, or at least not talk to me about religion. I was prepared to tell him I was not at all interested and to get up and move if he persisted.

Another take is Mormons. While the kids do "reach out" during their missions, I have never had an adult Mormon try to convert me at all, and I have spent a good amount of time around them. Fundamentalists, OTOH, almost always do.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Banging on my door is a bright red line for me.

To abuse a oft-in-the-news quip anyway. There are places and times I don't mind being approached and will engage in dialogue with people of various faiths, but there are also body language and other social cues I will use to accept or reject such approaches, as I prefer, depending on circumstances.

I find the most obnoxious ones are the ones that come to my home uninvited. Especially those that knock, pretending the 'No Soliciting' sign isn't for them. (I'm going to have a 'No Proselytizing' sign made eventually.)

[cbayer]

24. I used to hide when I saw the Jehovah's Witnesses on the block.

I also used to hide when I saw people with political agendas or who were raising money for something, including kids.

One of the nice things about living on a boat is that that really never happens.

But, then again, we didn't get counted in the census, lol.

[trotsky]

11. Why aren't they simply criticized for reaching out, as atheists are?

An atheist group puts up a billboard saying "You are not alone" to other atheists, and they're criticized (even by liberal, tolerant individuals on DU!). Why is it OK for a group like this to reach out, then? Why the double standard when it comes to religion, cbayer?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. He's recycling Unitarian Universalism without the atheists & agnostics.

Since UUs generally draw from ALL religious traditions and have plenty of atheists, agnostics and the questioning.

[cbayer]

26. He is trying to include non-believers as well.

[trotsky]

28. Well, except for the ones that you don't deem worthy, right?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. I would think "interfaith" implies belief.

Except for the part about the humanist manifesto.

So why isn't he a UU minister? Or even a humanist minister?

[cbayer]

29. I have no idea. He has had very limited results and it's not clear

to me exactly what he is trying to accomplish.

But I agree that it sounds much like UU churches.

[cbayer]

30. BTW, I am pretty sure you were replying to my reply, but you posted a reply to the OP.

When you do that, the person you are addressing might miss your response.

[Brainstormy]

31. Interfaith implies

nothing to me. "A religion that encompasses all religions" sounds contradictory, and self-nullifying. But then I'm a little thick.

[eomer]

34. Agreed, a "church that embraces all religions" must at the same time nullify much of them.

The full article in the OP explains what he means:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/13/us/a-religion-that-embraces-all-religions.html?_r=1&

And here's a sermon of his that also explains:
http://livinginterfaith.org/?p=442

He wants to see the various religions as different paths to the mountaintop, all of them valid at the same time. But you would have to strip away the claims of each one that they are the exclusive truth. Is it plausible to see Catholicism, for example, as one instance of a religious experience that is true to those who experience it but not the one and only truth? So that Jesus was Christ, in a way, but not the Christ, I guess?

[cbayer]

35. I don't have a problem with stripping away the claims of any that they

are the exclusive path.

And I think more and more people are embracing the concept of many paths, as evidenced by the rise of the "nones".

[trotsky]

36. Yet large numbers of those religions' adherents WOULD have a problem with that.

A majority of them, in most cases today. Your thoughts and feelings don't overrule theirs, you know.

And in an ironic sort of way, "interfaith" groups like this are claiming they are the exclusive path.

[eomer]

37. Agreed, this Interfaith religion makes its own claims that are incompatible with the other religions

Interfaith apparently claims that the exclusive "truths" of the religions it would have as constituents are not true. It tries to say we need to water down all the religions so they can all be true.

The UU approach is a bit different - it doesn't go as far as Interfaith does in drawing conclusions about religion. UUism says that we don't try to agree on matters like God or no God, but let's come together on some principles that we can agree on and agree to respect each others' right to an opinion on the rest.

[trotsky]

38. Yes, exactly!

Thanks for stating that so concisely.

[eomer]

33. Not belief in God, as he uses it.

But Interfaith, as a faith, this is new with the Living Interfaith Church which is where I call home. As a faith, Interfaith takes us beyond the very important use of interfaith cooperation and interfaith dialogue. As a faith, it embraces the teaching of all religions that will lead us to a life of seeking justice for all, not simply “us” (whoever “us” is, this week): of giving to and caring about our common humanity and our planet.

Ok… but what lies at the center? What do people who embrace Interfaith as a faith believe? Everything? Nothing?

We believe that there is a spiritual core to the universe that calls us to our better selves if we will listen. We recognize that there are many ways of interpreting the nature of this spiritual core. Some of us believe in God, and there will be differing definitions of God. Some of us believe in a moral imperative that involves no deity whatsoever. And some of us aren’t sure.

Interfaith, as a faith, embraces what Jesus, Confucius, Hillel, the Buddha, Muhammad, Bahaullah and so many others have taught us: that we are our brothers’ and sisters’ keeper and that we must strive daily to treat each other with honor, with respect and with love. We are connected. A hungry child of any race, on any continent, from whatever background, diminishes us. A homeless person of any race, on any continent, from whatever background, diminishes us.

http://livinginterfaith.org/?p=442