Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:06 PM Aug 2013

Trial Begins for Christians Arrested for Reading Bible Outside California DMV

MURRIETA, Calif. – The criminal trial for three men who were arrested for reading the Bible aloud outside of a California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) office began on Monday.

The incident occurred in February 2011 when Pastor Brett Coronado, Mark Mackey and Edward Florez, Jr. went to the DMV in Hemet early one morning to evangelize those who were waiting for the facility to open. As they stood on the public sidewalk, Mackey began to read out loud from the Bible.

However, soon after, he was approached by a security officer at the DMV, who asked him to move elsewhere. The men then asserted that they had a First Amendment right to stand on the sidewalk, and Mackey continued to read from the Scriptures.

Approximately 10 minutes later, a California patrol officer arrived on the scene, grabbed Mackey’s Bible, and put him in handcuffs. He informed the men that they could not “preach to a captive audience.”

http://christiannews.net/2013/08/05/trial-begins-for-christians-arrested-for-reading-bible-outside-california-dmv/
23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Trial Begins for Christians Arrested for Reading Bible Outside California DMV (Original Post) SecularMotion Aug 2013 OP
It's bogus, they'll get off Warpy Aug 2013 #1
I don't know about the "captive audience" issue here, but a couple of years cbayer Aug 2013 #2
The First Amendment is absolute. Deep13 Aug 2013 #4
How have they managed to keep the anti-choice people a certain distance away from abortion cbayer Aug 2013 #10
There's a lot of good info here Rob H. Aug 2013 #20
How do you explain prohibitions against libel/slander, free speech "zones", etc? kestrel91316 Aug 2013 #12
Soooooo LostOne4Ever Aug 2013 #22
"Congress shall make NO LAW... Deep13 Aug 2013 #3
SCOTUS Ruled that Captive Audience applied in Transportation & Hospitals as well as your home. TheBlackAdder Aug 2013 #7
SCOTUS also struck down the voting rights act, made corporations people... Deep13 Aug 2013 #8
Keep saying No Law. It won't make it true. TheBlackAdder Aug 2013 #9
"Congress shall make no law...." Deep13 Aug 2013 #11
So, I gather that you think it's perfectly fine to shout "Fire!" in a crowded kestrel91316 Aug 2013 #13
Has that ever actually happened? nt Deep13 Aug 2013 #17
Our constitution no longer works? What would you suggest? cbayer Aug 2013 #14
I'll leave that to the experts. Deep13 Aug 2013 #16
I'm pretty sure you are right about that. cbayer Aug 2013 #18
Then say something seditious in you town's municipal building. Test out your claim. nt TheBlackAdder Aug 2013 #15
This wording would cover any public right of way. Downwinder Aug 2013 #5
The Captive Audience Doctrine trumps Free Speech in most cases. TheBlackAdder Aug 2013 #6
That's why I got in trouble for tying up that one guy and explaining in depth why Firefly is awesome el_bryanto Aug 2013 #21
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #19
Were Selma and Patty inconvenienced? Manifestor_of_Light Aug 2013 #23

Warpy

(111,252 posts)
1. It's bogus, they'll get off
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:12 PM
Aug 2013

They were in the parking lot, not on a sidewalk where the cops could have made a case that they were impeding people from entering the DMV.

While I don't much like these assholes telling me I'm going to hell if I don't suck up to their often insane version of Jebus, I think this is a clear case of police over reaction. Ignoring them would have been much more effective.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. I don't know about the "captive audience" issue here, but a couple of years
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:14 PM
Aug 2013

ago there were Paulites outside of the PO doing the same kind of thing. They had pictures of Obama with Hitler mustaches.

They also refused to leave. I don't know what eventually happened, but I never saw them there again.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
4. The First Amendment is absolute.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:26 PM
Aug 2013

"No law" restricting the free exercise of religion or freedom of speech or non-violent assembly means no law.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
10. How have they managed to keep the anti-choice people a certain distance away from abortion
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:58 PM
Aug 2013

clinics?

Rob H.

(5,351 posts)
20. There's a lot of good info here
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 12:20 PM
Aug 2013
Full article.

Excerpt:

Current Laws and Enforcement

The most significant and well-known federal law restricting the speech of antiabortion protesters is the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act. Signed into law by the Clinton administration in May 1994, the FACE Act “makes it a federal crime to use force, the threat of force, or physical obstruction to prevent individuals from obtaining or providing reproductive health services.” The law provides criminal and civil penalties; the U.S. Department of Justice investigates and files charges for criminal violations, while any individual or facility that has been victimized in violation of the Act (as well as any federal, state, or local government) can bring a civil suit. FACE specifically avoids infringement of First Amendment rights by focusing on criminal conduct such as vandalism, threats, assault, and trespassing, and has been upheld by appeals courts in every circuit.

Several states also have local laws that restrict certain forms of speech at abortion clinics. Three states (Colorado, Massachusetts, and Montana) and a handful of cities have “buffer zone” laws which physically restrict the movement of protesters within a certain distance of building entrances. Maine, Washington, and the District of Columbia also proscribe certain levels of noise outside of clinics. These laws have been held to be constitutional “time, place, and manner” restrictions under Madsen v. Women’s Health Center, Inc, Schenck v. Pro-Choice Network of Western New York, and Hill v. Colorado. California, New York, and Washington also have their state-level versions of the FACE act, and 10 other states have other statutes restricting harassment at clinics and other healthcare facilities.

Practical Restrictions

There are two additional practical restrictions which have some connection to legal protections and limitations, but are not necessarily part of free speech jurisprudence or enforced by police. The first of these is trespassing laws. Protesters’ First Amendment rights only apply in public areas; clinics and their landlords have no obligation or desire to allow protesters to cross their private property lines. The nature of property lines can have a major impact on the efficacy of protesters’ speech and their ability to reach their intended audience. For example, Potomac Family Planning in Rockville, Maryland is located in a business park, with its entrance in the center of a parking lot and facing away from the street. At that clinic, protesters cannot go past the edge of the driveways, putting them easily over a hundred feet from the clinic entrance and the patients entering the clinic. By contrast, the Planned Parenthood health center in downtown Washington, DC is located in a building on land leased from the city, meaning that protesters have free access to the front lawn and sidewalk up to the front door of the clinic. These two physical settings provide radically different venues for protesters’ speech without any legal or constitutional effects.

The second tool used by some clinics to counteract the effects of antiabortion protesters, especially ones that engage in “sidewalk counseling,” is volunteer clinic escorts. These are individuals who, in coordination with the clinic, provide an easily identifiable pro-choice presence at the clinic to reassure and comfort visitors. Clinic escorts also provide a physical barrier between visitors and protesters, walking with visitors and speaking to them in order to distract from the (often very loud and insistent) protesters as the patient approaches or leaves the building. In essence, escorts are part of a “marketplace of ideas” solution to the speech of protesters, providing both a voice for the clinic (albeit a brief one) and a method of delivering visitors safely into the building where they can be exposed to the full speech potential of the clinic itself. The FACE Act specifically includes clinic escorts in the protected category of “individuals obtaining or providing reproductive health care services.” These two cases demonstrate that there are a variety of practical considerations in freedom of assembly and free speech, not solely legal ones.
 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
12. How do you explain prohibitions against libel/slander, free speech "zones", etc?
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:04 PM
Aug 2013

There are PLENTY of regulations in the US regarding speech and assembly, and you can't build a church just anywhere or hold a church service just anywhere and anytime you want.

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
22. Soooooo
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 08:22 PM
Aug 2013

I can kill people as human sacrifices to my goddess the invisible pink unicorn, may her hooves forever be blessed, and they can't do anything to me?

Because they can pass "No law" restricting my free exercise of religion

Where is the nearest Republican headquarters....i got alot of sacrificing to do!

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
3. "Congress shall make NO LAW...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:16 PM
Aug 2013

...respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What's that? This has nothing to do with Congress? Yeah, well...

"Amendment XIV: Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; * * *"

So, the state is not abridging their 1st Amendment rights at all! It's their 14th Am. rights that are getting screwed.


TheBlackAdder

(28,186 posts)
7. SCOTUS Ruled that Captive Audience applied in Transportation & Hospitals as well as your home.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:49 PM
Aug 2013

There are a whole bunch of other rulings that protect free speech as well as a person's right not to hear it when they are in a situation that they cannot evade it.

You can quote the Constitution all you want... SCOTUS ruled on many of these issues.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
8. SCOTUS also struck down the voting rights act, made corporations people...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:55 PM
Aug 2013

...and put Bush in office. There lost any credibility that they had.

"no law"

TheBlackAdder

(28,186 posts)
9. Keep saying No Law. It won't make it true.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:58 PM
Aug 2013

Then go ahead and yell "FIRE" in a crowed movie theater.

Oh, that's right... There's A LAW AGAINST THAT!

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
11. "Congress shall make no law...."
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:03 PM
Aug 2013

I think it's time we admit that our 18th century, pre-industrial Constitution no longer works.

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
13. So, I gather that you think it's perfectly fine to shout "Fire!" in a crowded
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:06 PM
Aug 2013

(and non-burning) theater??

And can I publish a book saying that YOU are a pedophile and murderer? I think I'll do that since nobody can pass laws against it.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
18. I'm pretty sure you are right about that.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:27 PM
Aug 2013

Seems to me that the experts deal with it all the time.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
5. This wording would cover any public right of way.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:37 PM
Aug 2013

failing to obtain a permit to conduct a “demonstration or gathering in or upon any state buildings or grounds."

TheBlackAdder

(28,186 posts)
6. The Captive Audience Doctrine trumps Free Speech in most cases.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:44 PM
Aug 2013

Just as a person has the right to Free Speech, others have a right against Compelled Listening.

There are certain safeguards in place to protect people at their doorstep of their home, against a hostile workplace while at the same time, the principles of Free Speech are to promote democracy, autonomy and a marketplace of ideas.

Since the people could not escape the message without leaving the area, most likely a queue that they've been standing in for some time, that would impose a hardship on them. This would most likely validate the captive audience portion of the doctrine. The location is another issue, as public transportation is barred from certain advertisements and medical centers.

Here is a nice write-up:

http://128.197.26.3/law/central/jd/organizations/journals/bulr/volume89n3/documents/CORBIN.pdf

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
21. That's why I got in trouble for tying up that one guy and explaining in depth why Firefly is awesome
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 03:33 PM
Aug 2013

He kept saying he wasn't that interested, but I wouldn't listen.

Firefly is awesome though. The TV show not the bug. Actually the bug is pretty awesome too.

Bryant

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Trial Begins for Christia...