Former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams tells ‘persecuted’ western Christians to grow up

[xchrom]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/16/former-archbishop-of-canterbury-rowan-williams-tells-persecuted-western-christians-to-grow-up/



Christians in Britain and the US who claim that they are persecuted should “grow up” and not exaggerate what amounts to feeling “mildly uncomfortable”, according to Rowan Williams, who last year stepped down as archbishop of Canterbury after an often turbulent decade.

“When you’ve had any contact with real persecuted minorities you learn to use the word very chastely,” he said. “Persecution is not being made to feel mildly uncomfortable. ‘For goodness sake, grow up,’ I want to say.”

True persecution was “systematic brutality and often murderous hostility that means that every morning you wonder if you and your children are going to live through the day”. He cited the experience of a woman he met in India “who had seen her husband butchered by a mob”.

Lord Williams’s years as archbishop of Canterbury were marked by turbulence over the church’s stance on the role of gay priests and bishops; gay marriage; and homophobia in the wider Anglican communion – with many members of the church expressing disappointment at a perceived hardening in its position on homosexuality.

[Ilsa]

1. Thank you for posting.

This man has put it in proper perspective. But I doubt they'll ever hear his words.

[Baitball Blogger]

3. I don't think Fox News will carry it, if that's what you mean.

[DetlefK]

2. But, but... Happy Holidays?!

[Iliyah]

4. Yeah, like persecution of the LGBT family and minorities

Last edited Fri Aug 16, 2013, 12:16 PM - Edit history (1)

for centuries. Persecution of women and civil liberties for centuries, et al.,

Onslaught of my religion is way better than yours and you must repent or die. That mankind is only 6-5 thousand years old and walked with dinosaurs during that time and where dragons also existed too. Destroying the USA history in place of bullshit and lies.

Yep, poor persecuted "so called Christians", yeah right.

[Demeter]

5. Those "Persecuted Xtians" are merely Pissed off that they are Disrespected

because nobody buys their pious BS any more. They don't like getting called on their scams and hypocrisy.

[longship]

6. Isn't persecution part of the Christian faith?

I don't have specific citation, but I think I remember quite a few Biblical passages saying such a thing. I imagine it is also a common refrain from the pulpit.

This might be a battle that is unwinnable because Christian persecution may be as much a matter of faith as their dead and risen Christ. And disavowing them of those beliefs, especially in the most fervent believers, may be very difficult.

I may be shooting from the hip here, though.

R&K

[JHB]

10. It's about evangelicals, conservative Catholics, etc. claiming "persecution"...

...when they don't get their way or face any restriction on open bigotry.


Like claiming it's "persecution" for them to have to legally treat married gays as married;
Like claiming persecution for requirements to include abortion & family-planning services in insurance plans for secular businesses owned by a church;
Like claiming a conspiracy to erase Christianity by people and businesses using "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"

i.e., not real persecution, just a lot of whining for not being treated as "more equal than others".

[Rozlee]

13. I have a conservative Catholic sister that subscribes to the Catholic League newsletter put out by

right-wing religious flamethrower, William Donohue. It's full of all these "persecutions" like a creche that was removed from a city square because a bunch of godless hellbound atheists made a hullabaloo about it or how Christmas is being hijacked by other religions to take it's meaning away from Jesus and give it back to pagan gods, like that wasn't where it came from to begin with. They nitpick about the most excruciating little slights and blow them up to make it sound like they're living under siege, terrorized by jackbooted secular hordes that want to burn their bibles and ship them to FEMA camps where their foreheads will be stamped with 666. In reality, how many atheists do we have serving openly in congress? Muslims? Jews? Christians far outnumber them. But, you're right. A sense of victimization seems to bind them closer to their faith and it's fueling the current politicization of the religious right. Without it, they'd be stuck in their after-church coffee klatches, mostly discussing the weather and who in the congregation is using Grecian Formula. But, I admit, I'm biased. I'm a godless, hellbound atheist myself.

[cbayer]

17. I have never heard of persecution being part of the christian faith.

There are truly persecuted christians, like the Coptics in Egypt right now.

But not in the US.

[longship]

18. Well, as I wrote, it's a subthread in the New Testament.

And it goes back to the Hebrew Bible as well, AFAIK.

I have no citation but it is one that I've heard of for some number of years. I am Bible literate but cannot quote chapter verse. The Bible Geek has talked about it in the past. Also, the Reasonable Doubts crew. Both are a lot more educated than me about these things.

And as I said, it's a subthread, not a main theme. And I may also be full of shit.

[cbayer]

19. I think that persecution may run as a theme through Judaism, so

you may be correct on that point.

But other than the "persecuted" religious right, I've never really heard of it from christians.

The emphasis seems to be more on protecting those that are truly persecuted, in my experience.

You are most definitely not full of shit, longship.

[longship]

20. Well, maybe only halfway full of shit...

Sometimes I throw things out merely for purposes of discussion. I know that there's general courtesy in this forum so I feel free to try to extend the conversation.

Thanks for the complement.

My regards.

[hrmjustin]

30. When the NT was written Christians were persecuted so everything was written from that mindset.

Today's Christians in the west are not persecuted but they are in the East.

[longship]

34. I am aware of those facts.

But I have doubts of the historicity of the NT narratives. They are so divergent in the stories they relate and there is little outside them to corroborate what they say. In fact, many of the stories have been falsified by what is known of the history.

They have elements of myth with no support outside the narrative. Without getting into specifics, the mythic elements have precursors in cultural myths going back centuries in previous cultures. They have memetic elements to them, derived from culture rather than history.

One of these common narratives is that of systematic persecution for ones beliefs. And that goes way back.

That was what I was trying to say. If I did not make that very clear all I can say is that maybe I am not very good at making a cogent argument. For that, I apologize.

Regardless, I find the topic very interesting which is why I like this forum.

[hrmjustin]

35. They are apart of the human story in the end, whether they are true or not.

I think they are true, but then again you know that. LOL.

[longship]

36. Story != history.

There are many cultural memes which go back to those days.

The life of a hero. The dying and rising savior. (Yup! Even that one.) one can trace many of these through legend and literature. Global conflagrations. The battle between good and evil. Etc. All have the elements of myth and of cultural memes.

I am not as well read on these matters as I would like to be. And I am always willing to learn something new.

I believe that religious persecution is just another one of those memes. This, in spite of whether persecution is actually happening. And when you think about religious history as related in their literature, that is kind of what religions have done throughout their history. The Hebrew Bible is full of it. Why wouldn't that too have a precursor in culture just like other mythic narratives?

[SCVDem]

7. In other words

Religious belief is a personal thin so shut the hell up about negative responses if you choose to engage in the public arena!

A church cannot and should not make public policy since their is no master church.

Look at the problems when there are only two, i.e. Sunni and Shia Islam.

Now multiply that by hundreds of beliefs and it makes you appreciate the quiet Buddhists and Shintos.

[totodeinhere]

8. I understand what he's saying but in some cases Christians are facing real persecution.

Nigeria: 13 Christians killed in Kano

http://pmnewsnigeria.com/2013/03/06/nigeria-13-christians-killed-in-kano/

Egypt's Christians under attack since Morsi's ouster

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/15/egypt-coptic-church-islamists/2640419/

[Leith]

9. Perhaps You Missed the Part

Where he says Western Christians. Nigeria and Egypt are not included by definition.

[totodeinhere]

11. I didn't say "Western Christians," I said "Christians." Yes his comment regarded Western Christians

but I think it's important to point out that in some parts of the world Christians are being persecuted or even murdered. And I don't think that this sad fact always gets enough attention.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. Blame those persecuted Western Christians for that.

Those protected American and British Christians bleating about their own fantasy persecution are the ones who could instead raise awareness of REAL persecution in other parts of the world.

[totodeinhere]

15. Blame other Christians but don't blame the perpetrators of the terror and murder?

That's ridiculous.

[Gormy Cuss]

24. Reading that into what I wrote is what's ridiculous.

Christians in the West who are expending time and effort whining about their own faux persecution could instead be focusing on raising awareness about the torture and murder of Christians in other parts of the world.

[totodeinhere]

25. Not ridiculous at all.

You specifically said "Blame those persecuted Western Christians for that." You didn't even mention the perpetrators of the violence let alone blame them. Now if you had merely said that Western Christians should be doing a better job at focusing on the persecutions going on in the Third World then I would have agreed with you.

[Gormy Cuss]

29. Context is important.

You wrote:

... Yes his comment regarded Western Christians

but I think it's important to point out that in some parts of the world Christians are being persecuted or even murdered. And I don't think that this sad fact always gets enough attention.

Bold emphasis mine. My reply directly follows your comment on the lack of attention to the issue:

Blame those persecuted Western Christians for that.

Those protected American and British Christians bleating about their own fantasy persecution are the ones who could instead raise awareness of REAL persecution in other parts of the world.

[hrmjustin]

31. Yes I see your point. By crying persecution here in the US it draws attention away from

real persecution of Christians.

[Momgonepostal]

14. That's true, but I think he's trying to make it clear...

...that what is going on in the modern UK and US is very different from actual persecution like what you describe above. To lump fearing for your life because of your religious beliefs in the same category with being told "Happy Holidays" is ridiculous and whiny.

There are and have been many cases of Christian persecution in the world--some by other Christians--but objecting that the ten commandments can't be displayed in court on the taxpayers dime or that a public school teacher can't lead his/her class in prayer just isn't it.

[cbayer]

16. Good for him.

It is insulting to those who are truly persecuted to claim persecution when what you really face may be something much milder.

[okasha]

21. I wish he'd said this

to Peter Akinola et alia.

[hrmjustin]

32. +1,000,000

[SecularMotion]

22. The Myth of Christian Persecution

Christians of all denominations maintain that the Early Church was widely persecuted. They state that in the first few centuries after the death of the Messiah, Christians were hunted, tortured and killed just for following Christ. This persecution is believed to have begun with the deaths of Stephen, the Apostles, and then the Christians persecuted under a long succession of cruel and vindictive Roman emperors.

This history of early Christianity establishes Christianity as a religion of innocent sufferers; as a church beleaguered and under attack. In periods of crisis or perceived crisis Christians of all stripes have returned to this stereotype of the early church in order to find themselves and understand their experiences. This is true even today: during the debate over the HHS mandate last year, a Catholic Bishop said that President Obama was attacking Christians just like the Roman emperors, Hitler and Stalin had. In August 2011 Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum publicly complained that the "gay community ... had gone out on a jihad" against him. In the course of the last election, similar statements were made by Mitt Romney, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly, to name but a few.

This is not just a case of election-day banter or political nastiness. Just recently, Fox News host Todd Starnes accused NBC of persecuting Christians because of a skit that aired on Saturday Night Live. The accusation may appear flimsy, but the advertising boycott of NBC that resulted was not. The rhetorical power of persecution language is very real.

These evaluations of modern society and Christianity's place in it trace themselves back to the early Church. Christianity is responsible for changing the way that we think about persecution. Were it not for the belief that early Christians were persecuted, Christian identity would not be so intimately linked to the experience of persecution. It is precisely for this reason that understanding the history is so important.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/candida-moss/the-myth-of-christian-persecution_b_2901880.html

[hrmjustin]

33. The reality is the early Church was persecuted and the modern American and Western Churches

are not.

[rug]

23. I'm skeptical of any group in the West that claims persecution, including skeptics.

[hrmjustin]

26. Lord Williams is a waste of time. He was the biggest dissappointment to ever grace the seat

of the Archbishop of Canterbury I have ever seen.

As for my fellow Christians here in the west my reaction is if you want to see real persecution against Christians, go to Egypt.

[Iggo]

27. Disrespected =/= Persecuted.

[ck4829]

28. K&R

[awoke_in_2003]

37. Wow...

I cannot believe I agree with an arch bishop.

[eridani]

38. Wish we could hear a lot more from the sane Christians

But I guess not yipping and howling every time you don't get to enforce your brand of Christianity on everyone else is part of the definition of sanity.