Religion
Related: About this forumRichard Dawkins attacks Muslim bigots, not just Christian ones. If only his enemies were as brave.
But let me try to be fair. Dawkins has also tweeted against all Muslims not just sexist god-botherers at University College London. I accept that generalising about Muslims can incite racism. It is all very well atheists saying that religion is not the same as race, because you are free to decide what god if any you believe in, but cannot choose your ethnicity. But try telling that to the persecuted Christians, Shia and Sunni of the Middle East. Their religious persecution is no different from racial persecution. I would go further and concede that Dawkinss critics had other arguments that werent wholly asinine, were it not for a telling detail. They never stick their necks out and defend real liberal Muslims and ex-Muslims who are being persecuted in Britain right now.
They stay silent because they are frightened of breaking with the crowd, of the faint threat of Islamist retaliation, and of absurd accusations of racism. Journalists want the easy life. They want targets who cannot hurt them. Dawkins has never hurt a fly, so hes all right. Looked at in a certain light, however, the enemies of Nahla Mahmoud might not be.
--snip--
One day there will be a reckoning. One day, thousands who have suffered genital mutilation, religious threats and forced marriages will turn to the intellectual and political establishments of our day and ask why they did not protect them. The pathetic and discreditable reply can only be: We were too busy fighting Richard Dawkins to offer you any support at all.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9000431/forget-about-richard-dawkins-fight-the-real-fanatics/
rug
(82,333 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)The first time, you deleted the post.
What's your point?
Sorry, friend. I just don't understand.
struggle4progress
(118,224 posts)Panorama's exposé of sharia councils didn't tell the full story
Sharia councils may be out of touch with gender roles in the UK on issues such as divorce, but let's hear how they are changing
John R Bowen
Friday 26 April 2013 06.35 EDT
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2013/apr/26/panorama-expose-sharia-councils-balance
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)"Ignorant bigot" is appropriate. He is just as much a fanatic as any Jihadist, but he probably would not resort to physical violence (perhaps due to a lack of bravery).
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)And thank you for that excellent example of the logical fallacy of the Ad Hominem. Using it is generally seen as meaning "I have no actual response."
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Don't look now, but you're projecting again. Why not just come right out and say what you really want to say, Mr. Anonymous-Tough-Guy-On-The-Internet?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Whatever you call it, saying that the ignorant bigotry of Dawkins somehow shows "bravery" is idiotic.
As I said, your use of the Ad Hominem shows merely that you have no actual argument. As, in fact, you do not.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)and attributed to Dawkins.
I understand now. Thanks!
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)You just don't want to admit Dawkins' bigotry. Perhaps because it mirrors your own.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You provide Dawkins' *exact* quote that you think conclusively demonstrates his bigotry, and provide the link showing it is his exact quote.
Your move.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)You are simply repeating a slander. It didn't work them, it won't work now.
But then, bigotry and lying is perfectly acceptable to at least some DU atheists. Complaining about DU atheists' lies and bigotry is not.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)and point to a webpage that didn't have that quote at all.
The proof is in the pudding. Provide the exact quote, and provide a link showing he said exactly those words.
Should be easy. But I understand why you don't want to expose your own dishonesty.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Be glad I didn't call it a fucking shovel.
Dawkins is a bigot, as shown by his own writings. What's more, he is remarkably ignorant of actual religion, and sees nothing wrong with this ignorance.
Thus, calling him an ignorant bigot is simply a statement of demonstrated fact.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)The terms you used I did not care for. There are people in this room who like the man and others don't. Don't let it get personal even if you are baited.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)I said that Dawkins is an ignorant bigot, using exactly those words.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,265 posts)You ought to know, if no-one told you, that just before you stopped posting in this group for a couple of months, the hosts were discussing whether to block you - either for an extended period of time, or permanently. This was due to your frequent use of the group to belittle DUers, rather than take part in discussions in a polite way. Now you're back, and you've immediately started name-calling of DUers. You have been told about this before.
If you continue to use the group to call DUers names, we will look at blocking you again.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)I did not "belittle" DUers, I called bigoted people on their bigotry.
I was told, in as many words, that denouncing bigotry was worse than posting bigotry.
And the only one I have called a bigot in this round was Dawkins. Apparently, saying that the ignorant bigot Dawkins is an ignorant bigot is unacceptable to you. Why is that?
Oh yes, I did say that someone was ignorant when he asked why someone denouncing Islam in Saudi Arabia might get that person killed. I said it because it was an ignorant question. A hint: Blasphemy is a capital offense in Saudi Arabia, and I expected him to know this.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,265 posts)(or 'Dawkins fanatics' or 'dawkinsolators'), then you are calling DUers bigoted, and we will have to take action. If you leave "I did not "belittle" DUers, I called bigoted people on their bigotry" in your post, the hosts will discuss blocking you, since it is an insult of DUers.
You know that this is about what you call DUers. Do not try to hide behind "I'm calling Dawkins names".
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Because you don't like me pointing out that there are fans of the bigoted Dawkins here.
Just tell me one thing: In what Bizzaro World is denouncing bigotry worse than supporting bigotry. For example, the thread header praises Dawkins for denouncing Muslim "bigotry" and wishes that "Christian bigots" had as much "bravery". Did you denounce that?
Incidentally, in a previous post in this thread, Trotsky called me a liar. Did you tut-tut that? Of course not.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)It seems ironic that you accuse another poster of an Ad Hom while using terms that are clearly meant as insults. What do your insults add to the conversation?
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)The writer was gushing about Dawkins' "bravery" in badmouthing Muslims from the safety of a hall in University College London. Had he been saying it in Riyadh, that would have been showing bravery -- and perhaps stupidity. But talking to an almost certainly sympathetic group (AKA "preaching to the choir" at UCL is not.
Second, an Ad Hominem is not a synonym for "insult". Rather, it is attacking the arguer instead of the actual argument.
Joe: I say that George Bush's tax cuts aided the economy.
Margaret: You're a thief.
Now, Joe may well be a thief, but this has nothing to do with either the validity or the truth (two different things, but that's another discussion) of his argument. Margaret is attacking Joe, not what Joe's said.
An insult is not necessarily an Ad Hominem. "You're stupid, therefore your argument is invalid" is an Ad Hominem; "Your argument is invalid because of <x>, therefore you're stupid" is not.
Moreover, an Ad Hominem need not necessarily be an insult:
Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong."
Dave: "Of course you would say that, you're a Catholic priest."
Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?"
Dave: "Those don't count. Like I said, you're a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong.
Look here for a discussion of what is an Ad Hominem and what is not.
Fix The Stupid
(947 posts)What do you mean by this statement?
"The writer was gushing about Dawkins' "bravery" in badmouthing Muslims from the safety of a hall in University College London. Had he been saying it in Riyadh, that would have been showing bravery -- and perhaps stupidity."
Why would it be "brave/stupid" for Dawkins to say this in Riyadh instead of saying it in "the safety of a hall in University College London"?
Can you expand on that?
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Attacking Islam in Saudi Arabia would show bravery. It might also get you killed.
Attacking Islam in a hall at University College London does not show bravery. It's like attacking the Pope in Salt Lake City. Yes, there are Catholics there, but the overwhelming proportion of the population will not take the attack personally.
Fix The Stupid
(947 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)I wanted to say "are you really that ignorant, or are you merely pretending ignorance?" But that would probably get me reported. However, it is what I mean.
Fix The Stupid
(947 posts)Most believers here bray on that Dawkins is a bigot because he says bad things about Islam...
Then a believer (you) states that he is just a coward because he won't go to Riyadh and espouse these opinions because he might get killed by people who follow Islam...
Don't you see the delicious irony in what you are saying?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Good luck getting anything other than insults and bluster in a response, though.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)BTW, are you saying religious DUers "bray"? I'd hate to put words in your mouth.
Fix The Stupid
(947 posts)Focus on the 'bray', but not the meat of the question. I'll try again.
Believers - Dawkins is a Bigot! Says bad things about Islam! He's a coward because he won't go to an Islamic country and espouse these beliefs!
Me - What's the difference in the location of where he opines?
Believers - He would get killed by Islamists if he said this in Riyadh!!! He's a coward saying this stuff in his ivory tower - A coward I say!
Me - Is it not bigoted to say that Islamists would kill him just for stating an opinion?
No sense of irony there? Dawkins is a bigot because he bad mouths Islam, but a believer is NOT a bigot for saying Islamists in Riyadh wold have him killed for stating an opinion?
No double standard?
Sadly though, he probably would get killed if he set foot in Riyadh. Which of course somewhat proves his opinions are correct about Islam... no?
rug
(82,333 posts)The rest of your post reads more like an interior dialogue.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)My point that you are an Internet tough-guy who IRL would never say the shit you say to anyone actually standing in front of you stands.
So please, continue to show us all how brave you are.