Voyager 1 and 2 continue to surprise NASA scientists

[BridgeTheGap]

Ed Stone, 76, is project scientist for the Voyager planetary mission, launched by NASA in 1977. The program includes the twin spacecraft Voyager 1 and Voyager 2, which have made an unprecedented tour of the outer solar system. The spacecraft took the first color photographs of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, and discovered dozens of moons of these worlds.

In recent years, the spacecraft headed to unknown territory. The Voyagers are now flirting with the edge of our solar system, defined by the magnetic bubble, or heliosphere, created by the sun. This summer, new data showed Voyager 1 had slipped into an unexpected “magnetic highway” that connects the bubble to interstellar space — another in a long line of Voyager discoveries.
In an interview at the American Geophysical Union’s fall meeting in San Francisco, he discussed his long involvement with the mission:
Q: It seems the Voyager mission has surprised us once again.

A: Absolutely. This is another exciting milestone in Voyager’s mission of discovery. We’ve discovered a magnetic highway that connects us to the outside. The particles inside [the solar system] escape along this highway, and at the same time, the cosmic ray particles that are outside can stream in along this magnetic highway.

http://www.courier-journal.com/viewart/20121231/FEATURES/312310021/Voyager-1-2-continue-surprise-NASA-scientists

[MAD Dave]

1. These two spacecraft are and will continue to be....

......the furthest man made objects from earth. They've been travelling for nearly 40 years and still continue to operate, send back data and surprise their creators. Just a reminder of past engineering achievements.

The fleet of Mars rovers are a similar achievement for current engineering.

[TheMadMonk]

20. Why? We can and should send out probes...

...capable of overtaking and surpassing the Voyagers.

And something else we bloody well should do before it's too late, is send chasers after Pioneer 10, and the Voyagers, to act as relays as long as the original missions survive, and then probes in their own right into the Kupier Belt.

[Blue State Bandit]

2. NASA has been nothing but "surprised" by how our solar system operates for the past few years now.

"The particles inside escape along this highway, and at the same time, the cosmic ray particles that are outside can stream in along this magnetic highway."

It's called a DC Circuit. When will astro-physisists accept that electricity is not an industrialized construct, but a universal constant?

“Everything we’ve seen [from Voyager] is not what we expected to see”… “People have been working on this for a long time. Just about every expectation we’ve had has been confounded so far.” Timothy Horbury, Imperial College London.

[Orrex]

5. Um...

I wasn't aware that any astrophysicists believed that electricity is solely an industrialized construct. Who in the world gave you that idea?

Wait a minute... You're not talking about that "electric universe" stuff, are you?

[Blue State Bandit]

9. EU theory accurately predicted these specific phenomena...

as well as the befuddled reaction of standard cosmological mathematicians.

Standard theory says that "solar winds" would be forced into a right angle when it reaches the "bow shock" at the helio-pause.
Voyager says that it comes to a stop. EU said it would come to a stop.

Standard theory proposed convection as the driving force transferring heat from the solar interior to the surface and corona.
SDO readings show convection at .01% of what ST calculations requires.

Most surface solar structures have been replicated in lab experiments including tufting, sunspots, reactions with incoming charged objects (comets), and anomalous (to ST) temperature variations with the lowest temps recorded in the interior of sunspots at the temp of an arc-welder, rising to upwards of 5 million kelvin in the corona.

Clearly, there is something fundamentally wrong with standard cosmology.

And inventing dirty snowballs that survive close solar approaches(Lovejoy Dec 2011 @ 120,000 km above solar surface), or highways (this is not their first) that allow for proton storms to travel 2 AU an hour (3/4 SoL) and accelerate charged particles that gather at the helio-pause to gamma/cosmic-ray speeds w/o gravitational/kinetic influence is just counter-productive.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2012/12jan_cometlovejoy/

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/10jun_newstorm/

[Orrex]

10. Curious! Can you post links to those accurate EU predictions?

I mean, you offered links from NASA and a link to a post by an "anonymous reader," but perhaps I missed your documentation of EU theory?

I'm sure that they would be quite useful to DUers with an interest in the subject.


Thanks. Can't wait to see the links that you provide.

[Blue State Bandit]

11. Confirmed predictions from Comet Temple 1 (Deep Impact) & mini sun.

#!

Plus: http://para-az.com/electric-sun/miniature-sun.html

[Orrex]

12. Can't watch the vid from here at work, but thanks

And forgive me for sounding snobbish, but do you have something a little more... formal in support of EU theory? A page with pictures of a plasma ball and no actual theories or, you know, math to support those absent theories isn't very convincing.

I'm not being obtuse or snarky here; if EU is to be taken seriously as a system of explanation, particularly one that aspires to unseat the very well-supported modern cosmological model of the universe, then it needs to put forth some heavy-duty numbers in order to support its claims.

What you've presented so far seem like little more than reasoning by analogy, a lucky guess based on aesthetics that happened to be sort of right in one case.

Please provide more formal documentation of EU theory when you have the chance.


Thanks.

[Blue State Bandit]

13. Here is a breakdown of the behavior/properties of plasma and plasma circuits

http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2011/10/25/essential-guide-to-the-eu-chapter-3/

http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2012/02/26/essential-guide-to-the-eu-chapter-9/

In an attempt to provide provable observational data, I prefer to post NASA's own links pointing out the inconsistencies that are present in the standard cosmological model. Then it becomes easier to identify the "cheats" used to explain away data that does not fit the standard model.

I'll post some more soon.


NYT on Comet LoveJoy surviving an 87,000 mile perihelion.

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/after-skirting-the-sun-comet-lovejoy-provides-a-cosmic-show/

...and from planetary.org

http://planetary.org/blogs/guest-blogs/jason-davis/3311.html

These links are from EU sites:

http://www.holoscience.com/wp/electric-sun-verified/

http://www.holoscience.com/wp/the-simple-electric-universe/

http://www.holoscience.com/wp/comet-asteroid-link-confirmed/

[Orrex]

14. Thanks again, but I need to disclaim something:

I've read through a bunch of sites with info about EU just this afternoon, and the overwhelming majority all match the same basic assessment that I gave of the plasma ball page you linked: EU is developed by looking at pictures and taking guesses at explanations that sort of fit the pictures. That's not a scientific theory at all, it certainly doesn't follow the scientific method, and it offers no real challenge to prevailing cosmology.

EU theory is almost universally dismissed by anyone with actual knowlege of science. It numbers a few scientists among its proponents, sure, but broadly speaking it's about as credible as the stork theory of human reproduction.

Additionally, what you identify as "cheats" aren't anything of the sort. They're revisions to scientific theory and are entirely appropriate in advancing scientific understanding of the universe.

EU theory is, as far as I can tell, a pseudoscientific diversion that really adds nothing to the discussion. It also mistakes as a weakness one of the great strengths of science. When science fails to explain or predict a phenomenon, that's an amazing opportunity to expand scientific understanding. EU suggests that a minor error in prediction is proof that the theory as a whole is bankrupt. Far from it! The fact that the theory can be modified to include the anomaly is a demonstration of just how robust the theory really is!


I appreciate you posting the links, but to put it bluntly you're backing the wrong horse.

[Blue State Bandit]

16. Explain then how a black hole...

with all of its infinate gravitational force allows jets of gamma particles to accelerate to near relativistic speeds from it poles, in some cases for 100's of light years.

Explain super-rotation at the equator of the sun, spinning like a current-carrying radial torus.
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/papers/hathadh/HathawayWilliamsCuntz2006.pdf

http://iopscience.iop.org/0029-5515/43/2/306

Or maybe explain the abject failure of the use of Red-Shift as a measure of distance and the extent taken to de-dunk the existence of a connecting structure between NGC 7603/ARP 92 and it's quasars. According to Red-Shift used as a measurement of distance (as opposed to speed), NGC 7603A (I believe) is in the forground, and it's companion quasar NGC 7603B is red-shifted into the deeper background.

But it is clear that there is a structure connecting the two objects, and there is a "string of pearls" effect between the two. Multiple starsand a few smaller quasar-esk objects form across the filament connecting the pair, just like the beading seen as a discharge arc expends its current and collapses.

http://www.haltonarp.com/articles/research_with_Fred




To which the ST modle explains this thusly:



http://www.aanda.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/aa/full/2004/26/aa0260/aa0260.fig.html

Basically, that call it an illusion. Because if it's not, somebody's losing some grant money.

[Orrex]

18. You're falling for the old "god of the gaps" fallacy

First off, I'm not qualified to answer your question about the black hole, and I'm not certain that you're qualified to interpret the answer if it were given.

Second, you're looking for relatively minor gaps in the current cosmological model, and you're concluding that the pseudoscientific theory of EU must be the answer. Even if those gaps were a big problem, which as far as I know they are not, that wouldn't mean that EU is correct. In addition, as the gaps are plugged, your pet theory becomes more and more superfluous. It's strikingly similar to the creationist strategy of finding minor gaps in the fossil record and then claiming that these gaps prove that creationism is true and correct. Nonsense!

Rather than simply trying to poke holes, why don't you tell us specifically how EU explains these anomalies better?


As to the gamma jet from black holes, I'm just about certain that Hawking covers this in A Brief History of Time and elsewhere. That book is famously accessible for the layperson; I'd suggest that you give it a look.


Why are you so heavily invested in EU, anyway?

[Blue State Bandit]

22. After studying electrical engineering...

I got my first round of questions while I was following the Comet Temple 1 mission. I saw Wall Thorton's predictions on the Deep Impact experiment the day before. The pre-impact flash, x-ray emission, and telemetry disruption put a big kink in my understanding. The kinetics of the impact had little to contribute to the amount of energy actually released. It acted exactly as two bodies of inverse charges would react when coming into close contact.

But what sealed it was the invention of Dark Matter/Energy.

[Orrex]

23. But surely you understand that this is how science works, right?

Something comes along that challenges an existing theory, such as the dark matter/energy problem, and so the theory is revised and the revised theory is tested again, until the next challenge comes along.

You're calling for the wholesale abandoning of a very sturdy model simply because certain elements of the model aren't perfect. That's irresponsible and short-sighted.

What does "after studying electrical engineering" mean, anyway? Do you hold a degree or are you working toward one? That is, I "studied" chemistry and anthropology, but I can't claim expertise in either field.

[Blue State Bandit]

27. I don't advocate throwing out the entirety of Physics...

but to proclaim space to be electrically neutral defies observational data. I'm not advocating the exclusion of gravity, but for the inclusion of the well understood physical principles of electromagnetism. Dark energy is a construct used to explain energies that can not be created by kinetic action alone. Kinetic energies of ions bumping into each other in a dispersed plasma does not reach x-ray potentials, but x-ray is clearly observed radiating from planetary nebula. Lab results show that plasma, when conducting high currents, radiate x-rays in the same way as planetary nebula.

When you include EU in calculating the energies seen in bodies such as nebuli, pulsars, quasars, magnetars, ect, the need for "Dark Energy" disappears. Same for dark matter. If you include the effects of electrically charged bodies and how they interact with each other pending on their individual current potentials, the need for dark matter disappears.

Gravity is an integral component in astrophysics, but it is not the be-all end-all.

When you strip electrons from anything, a charge separation is created between the object and it's surrounding. that charge separation creates a magnetic field. when there is no charge separation, their is no magnetic field. Period. Basic physics. Helio-physicists are almost there anyway. They measure "solar winds" in electron-volts. They accept current-flow at the poles that educe the aurora. but they refuse to take that last step staring them in the face of electrical interactions between bodies in space. I've heared the same befuddlement from the data returing from the Cassinni/Hoygens mission. Polar hot spots on multiple moons, radio emissions from Saturn's poles that are related to the newly discovered aurora (American Geophysical Union). And my favorite, Enceladus zapping Saturn with an "Electron Beam" (John Hopkins APL)

The electrons Rymer discovered were of sufficient energy that they could stimulate an observable auroral output on the planet, a glowing spot formed the same way as the Earth’s northern lights — with electrons precipitating into the ionosphere. At Earth, however, the electrons come from interplanetary space; at Saturn they represent an enormous current system looping through Enceladus all the way back to Saturn, more than 150,000 miles away.

Emphases added to denote denial.

4th year BA in electrical engineering. I should be done this summer.

[Blue State Bandit]

28. By the way, I'd like to thank you for...

the civil tone and meaningful discussion you offered here.

[Orrex]

29. LOL! Well, you caught me on a good day

Honestly, I don't know a great deal about EU other than what I've read in the past few days, though I must disclaim that I'm suspicious what it claims. Still, I lack the mathematical or astrophysical chops to address the mechanics of it, so I'm left with addressing the structure of its assertions, and I have to defer to people more knowledgeable than I am.

And give yourself some credit: your tone has been entirely reasonable, so that makes it easy for me to respond in kind.

[Blue State Bandit]

31. Orrex, here are some other articles I thought you would like to read...

concerning the demonstration of electrical properties of plasma in a laboratory setting and the scale-ability argument at the heart of the disagreement between the Standard and Electrical models.

I don't believe that either theory holds all the answers, but the walls of electrical neutrality are crumbling. Maybe, in the near future, a new unified theory will emerge when these two perspectives see the universe beyond the dogmatic adherence to theories based on a creationist view of everything (on both sides).

Turbulent Plasma in the Lab

-snip- Although it is at a very different length scale, studying plasma in the lab can teach us about the physics of its astrophysical counterpart. Now, writing in Physical Review Letters, Gregory Howes, at the University of Iowa, and collaborators have achieved a breakthrough in the observation that a nonlinear interaction between two magnetic waves, known as Alfvén waves, can generate “daughter” waves with a shorter wavelength. The nonlinear interaction is believed to be the primary mechanism by which turbulent motion in astrophysical plasmas is transferred to increasingly smaller length scales [2], and the new experiments provide an opportunity to study the conditions under which it occurs.

American Physical Society

Plasma Jets on Earth

-snip- Because there is evidence for current flows in many astrophysical situations, Bellan argues that this mechanism for producing a tightly collimated jet could apply widely. But Eric Priest, of St. Andrew’s University in Scotland, while admiring the Caltech team’s demonstration, finds its astrophysical applicability not at all obvious. He worries in particular that the timescale of the experiment may not scale up appropriately to solar and astrophysical values. Adam Frank of the University of Rochester, New York, cautions that the behavior of astrophysical jets depends on additional factors, such as the ratio of thermal energy to magnetic energy, that laboratory experiments may not mimic.

American Physical Society

[Posteritatis]

25. It always boggles me how evangelical EU advocates are about their cosmology. (nt)

[Blue State Bandit]

15. Guardian has a story on this.

http://guardianlv.com/2012/12/the-higgs-fiasco-and-the-electric-sun-w-videos/

[Odin2005]

17. Uh, oh, He's BAAAAAAACK!!!

[Occulus]

21. Cut the fucking woo bullshit.

Take it to the astrology and pseudoscience group, please. We've dealt with your claptrap in this group before, it is NOT welcome here, and it will eventually get you banned from DU.

This is the only warning you'll get before you're at a minimum blocked from this group. Ask Omega Minimo.

[Posteritatis]

24. Oh God, another electric universe kook. (nt)

[FailureToCommunicate]

3. This "highway" shouldn't come as a surprise...

[kenfrequed]

4. This is why Nasa is so absolutely necessary.

We cannot afford to just abandon space exploration and science to the private sector. Nasa designs things to last and to include many, many redundant features to assure operation. Most of their vehicles and programs outlast their original operation window by quite some time and give us so much useful information.

[bigdarryl]

6. Must be a slow new day why is this NEW news

It's been repeated over again that the voyager space crafts are headed out of the solar system so until they are in fact Out of the solar system there isn't any news here

[AldoLeopold]

7. Well is this magnetic highway thing new?

[Posteritatis]

30. Reading the article helps. (nt)

[ThoughtCriminal]

8. Go Voyager Go!

&feature=share&list=FLfzHgcx2LMBw8BdSpKelr1A

[BlueJazz]

19. That's pretty cool !

[Surya Gayatri]

26. "To boldly go where no man-made thing has gone before..."

Godspeed, Voyagers! They've already been flying away from us during the time of two generations.