Uh oh...

[uriel1972]

PZ Myers has put part of an email on Pharyngula where a woman accuses Michael Shermer of rape. This could get ugly.

However, I thank him for not sweeping this under the carpet like Shermer's organization. It seems the CFI behaves something like the RCC as five other women have reported similar situations.

Before our religous comrades start clamouring, I would like to add at least there are leaders in the athiest community who are prepared to deal with the dark deeds that are done in the community.

[skepticscott]

1. Well, in the first place

CFI is not Shermer's organization. And it is not the responsibility of the "atheist community" (whatever that is) to investigate or prosecute all alleged crimes commited by any atheist.

Is there even an allegation that Shermer used his authority as an atheist to commit a crime (not sure how that would work, frankly)? If not, it's hard to see what this has to do with atheism.

Btw, link?

[uriel1972]

4. It's not about prosecuting crimes, it's about not covering things up...

It's not about Shermer using any "Atheist Authority" to commit crimes. I believe it is of note for atheists because what prominent figures do reflects upon the rest of us. Unfairly I might add.

We have already seen the "Atheists do it too" card played in the arguments about misogyny and sexism. Given all the hoo ha about the RCC and protecting their own, it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for this to be leveled at us too.

No, not all atheists are the same, and there is no Atheist organization we all belong to, but we do belong to message boards, go to conferences and talk to each other. It might not be tight community, but it remains a community.

As fractured and fractious as it might be we are thought of as one big(!) lockstep brigade, impinging the religious freedoms of the Earth. Again what one does, especially if they are prominent reflects upon us all, whether we like it or not.

And for the link... http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula

[skepticscott]

8. Well, no..it only reflects on "us"

To the extent that religionists trolls and apologists attempt to use it to smear atheism and atheists. Don't buy into their phony attempts to paint situations like this analogous to what the RCC had done. That's just what they want and it's bullshit.

If a physicist commits a crime, does it "reflect" on physics or other physicists, even though they have a "community" and message boards? Of course not. Same for chefs, bird watchers and snowboarders. So why should it be any different here?

[uriel1972]

17. It shouldn't be any different...

But shouldn't doesn't buy a bottle of dehydrated camel spit...

[skepticscott]

19. And it doesn't have to

If you just throw back in their face every time WHY it's bullshit.

[trotsky]

5. Here's the link:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/08/what-do-you-do-when-someone-pulls-the-pin-and-hands-you-a-grenade/

I agree with you, it's an utterly different situation but you know as well as I do consistency has never been a requirement for the types that will embrace this with glee.

[Rob H.]

6. Here's an excerpt and a link to PZ's post

What do you do when someone pulls the pin and hands you a grenade?
by PZ Myers

...snip...

Now I’ve been sitting here trying to resolve my dilemma — to reveal it or not — and goddamn it, what’s dominating my head isn’t the consequences, but the question of what is the right thing to do. Do I stand up for the one who has no recourse, no way out, no other option to help others, or do I shelter the powerful big name guy from an accusation I can’t personally vouch for, except to say that I know the author, and that she’s not trying to acquire notoriety (she wants her name kept out of it)?

I’ve got to do what I’ve got to do, I can do no other. I will again emphasize, though, that I have no personal, direct evidence that the event occurred as described; all I can say is that the author is known to me, and she has also been vouched for by one other person I trust. The author is not threatening her putative assailant with any action, but is solely concerned that other women be aware of his behavior. The only reason she has given me this information is that she has no other way to act.

With that, I cast this grenade away from me…

"At a conference, Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me. I can’t give more details than that, as it would reveal my identity, and I am very scared that he will come after me in some way. But I wanted to share this story in case it helps anyone else ward off a similar situation from happening. I reached out to one organization that was involved in the event at which I was raped, and they refused to take my concerns seriously. Ever since, I’ve heard stories about him doing things (5 different people have directly told me they did the same to them) and wanted to just say something and warn people, and I didn’t know how. I hope this protects someone."

I'm not a lawyer or anything, but when it came to light that a local pastor confessed to his superior that he had molested his own son years earlier and his superior didn't report it to law enforcment, it was reported in the local news that his superior could have faced criminal charges for doing so.* One would think that the members of the organization who were told about the alleged rape and did nothing would also be subject to such charges if the statute of limitations hasn't expired. They should have reported it to the police, imo--that would've been the right thing to do.

*The pastor to whom the confession was made wasn't charged; due to the age of the pastor's son at the time he was molested it was unclear whether the statute of limitations had expired and this is the Bible Belt, so he walked away unscathed and remains the lead pastor even after calls for him to step down. It's also worth mentioning that unlike the organization mentioned in the email, the church carried out an investigation to find out exactly what happened and to put safeguards in place to make sure it never happens again.

Edit: trotsky already posted the link above while I was being OCD and endlessly tinkering with this post.

[trotsky]

7. LOL

trotsky already posted the link above while I was being OCD and endlessly tinkering with this post.

You have NO IDEA how many times the same thing has happened to me.

[JNelson6563]

2. This is intolerable.

I don't care if someone's an atheist or religious or what, behavior such as rape should NEVER get a pass.

It's shameful that anyone has tried to help cover this up. Utterly shameful.

One thing I do have faith in is that none of my beloved comrades here would turn a blind eye to this just because the perpetrator is an atheist.

Julie

[skepticscott]

10. Certainly if a crime was committed

It should not be ignored. But she has accused an unnamed (as far as I can find) organization of refusing to take her concerns about this seriously. The question then becomes, what would she have had them do?. Report it to the police? That's exactly what she apparently did NOT want done. She may have had very good reasons for not doing so, and certainly it would have been difficult, but if she didn't want it to be made public, would it not have been wrong for anyone else to do so on her behalf?

[JNelson6563]

12. I must confess

I only read the OP on this and that seems to paint a different scenario.

I don't know the details and hope justice prevails whatever the truth of the matter is.

Julie

[skepticscott]

14. I hope so too

But allegations like this can be as insidious as the rape culture itself. Even if it were false (and I have no idea whether it is or not), it can never be removed. Even if this woman recanted her story tomorrow, people would never look at Shermer in the same way again. Not for the rest of his life. If he's guilty, they shouldn't, but the scary thing is that everyone is already buying into the idea that he might be based solely on evidence that has not been rigorously examined.

[JNelson6563]

15. Agreed.

She made the allegation & there needs to be a fair trial with all evidence thoroughly examined, of course.

I think the OP was more about how this will be "discussed" by the other side, as it were, with some ready to pounce on any they perceive as "giving a pass" to a fellow atheist.

If it turns out the allegation is true then, as I said, I'm certain that none here in our haven would even consider excusing such behavior.

Oh, and please tell Mrs. Skeptic I always get compliments when I wear the bracelet!

Julie

[trotsky]

3. I don't contribute to the CFI, but if I did, I would be screaming for answers right now.

And if I didn't get any, or got answers that I didn't like, I would immediately cancel my membership and stop helping the group in any way, shape or form.

I would certainly not defend the group or Shermer either.

So I am not afraid of the usual types grabbing and running with this. Oh they will, because in trying to defend the behavior of the leaders of their billion-member church, the only "defense" they seem to be able to mount is "others did it too!" Yet somehow asking them to stop supporting it, or stop defending it, is unacceptable and "bigotry" against their organization.

[skepticscott]

9. Well, again..CFI is not Shermer's organization

And I don't see where CFI is even mentioned in Myers' post..did I miss it?

Here's what I read:

I reached out to one organization that was involved in the event at which I was raped, and they refused to take my concerns seriously.

I'd want to know more about what "reached out", "involved at the event" and "refused to take my concerns seriously" mean before I would accuse an organization of covering up rape. Was any action taken to prevent her from reporting this to the police?

[trotsky]

11. Oh, good point.

I may have misread that. It does bother me that the details are so vague.

[skepticscott]

20. And I have to admit

Last edited Fri Aug 9, 2013, 06:03 PM - Edit history (1)

This statement also seemed odd to me:

Ever since, I’ve heard stories about him doing things (5 different people have directly told me they did the same to them)

If this person hadn't gone public, how did these other 5 people (who apparently also had not spoken publicly about similar incidents) know to speak directly to her about it?

Apparently Myers was conflicted about what to do here, but the more I think about it, the less convinced I am that he did the responsible thing in just dumping this out on the Internet with no details or corroborating evidence other than a friend saying they trust her in general. He knows very well how the Internet works and what a anonymous rape accusation does to someone. In hindsight, it seems like the more responsible thing to do would have been to write this person back and say "I'm sorry, but I can't publish an anonymous rape accusation with no details. I know it's difficult, but if you will come out with specifics about what happened, I will see that they get aired."

[uriel1972]

18. CFI was mentioned in the comments I apologize for that...

I have no idea what happened, if anything did happen or what the response was. I was trying to point out a mess was possibly heading to the religion group.

I also believe that these things shouldn't be swept under the carpet, that their should be some way to deal with these things in the open, with (and I hate the word) accountability for all involved. If that is the courts then so be it.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Innocent till proven guilty.

She needs to go to the police, and he needs to have his day in court. There is no atheist mafia that is going to 'come after her'.

Her coming after him with CFI amounts to the same thing she is purportedly afraid of; retaliation. She is lodging an anonymous accusation against him in public. That's a cheap shot, when you claim to be afraid of him 'coming after her'. If her allegation is true, he would certainly know who she is, and if capable/willing, 'come after her' right? No logical sense there.

She is trying to harm him, outside the courts, while pretending to be afraid that he will harm her, outside the courts. Does not compute.


There is a venue for this sort of accusation; the courts.

Edit: And if he did it, he needs to go to jail for it.

[skepticscott]

16. I have to agree

An accusation of rape has to be taken seriously, but from both sides. The possibility that it may be true and the possibility that it may be false both have to be taken seriously, and the evidence for each evaluated rigorously. This accusation has been made vaguely and without details, in such a way that a rigorous evaluation of the evidence is impossible.