I want to say something, but I should probably leave well enough alone.

[A HERETIC I AM]

Here's the deal;

My niece, who in the past claimed she was a Wiccan and was certainly a religious skeptic, has a daughter who is now about 3. On my niece's Facebook page she posted that her, her husband, their daughter, my sister (her mom) and HER husband were at a specific church last Sunday. I should make it clear that all of us kids were raised Episcopalian by a dad who valued science and reason and had his own concept of the divine, heaven and whatnot. I think it is safe to say that he encouraged all of us to be critical thinkers, though he did place high value on Sunday church attendance. With that in mind, my sister who is 6 years older than I am married a true, right wing, the sun rises out of Sarah Palin's ass, the Earth is 10,000 years old, republican, fundamentalist Christian whackadoodle with the personality of a turnip.

And that insults the thinking turnips out there.

Anyway...

What has stuck in my craw is how they and all their Facebooking, nutjob Christians whackadoodle fundy nitwit 'friends' are fawning over my great niece attending church.

"Oh, it's so wonderful that Renee' (not her real name) is learning about Jesus at such a young age" and "It is so nice to see young families bringing their little ones to the lord" etc. etc. etc. letmepukemyfuckinggutsout.


I am ---><---this close to posting on that Facebook thread a few choice words....like...

"I suppose it would be out of the question to wait until Renee' is 13 or 14 or has at least learned how to reason before a myth system is presented to her, right?"

Or...

"I think it would be more a service to her young intellect if you guys didn't allow the church to convince her she was flawed before she knows a few more things about herself and the world around her"

Or..

"I find it incredible that you are so convinced that this insidious and beguiling belief system is a good thing for a 3 year old to be exposed to."


I want this little girl to grow up to be an engineer or a scientist or a great thinker or whatever she wants to be (preferably with a healthy dose of reality thrown in) instead of telling her at the tender age of 3 that she is a sinner and as a result of this, needs a redeemer. GOD DAMMIT! She isn't inherently flawed! No child is! What they are is inherently HUMAN!


But...it ain't my kid. But I see the influence the people around my sisters daughter and granddaughter are having. It is disturbing.

And it pisses me off.

[Arugula Latte]

1. It pisses me off how religious nuts ALWAYS feel free to spew their stuff,

but we always have to think about whether we want to ruffle feathers by stating something in favor of reason. Only you know if it is "worth it" to post something but I think in general we as the non-religious need to start asserting ourselves a bit more in public life, much as gays have done.

[A HERETIC I AM]

2. I agree. I'm thinking perhaps a private note to my niece.

I guess I am a bit surprised at her, as she was, as I said, a real religious skeptic. We had long conversations about the subject before she was married.

It bugs me that she might be bending to pressure from her husbands family to take the kid to church.

[CrispyQ]

5. I vote for the private note vs. an FB post.

Let her know she can call you & talk if she needs support.

Years ago I was friends with a fine Christian woman, very kind, tolerant, everything that Christians are supposed to be, according to what I was taught as a kid. Then she married a fundie & she changed. She is not as rabid as he is, but she has become much more judgmental & less tolerant. I am certain her husband intercepted & deleted my emails to her. We stopped communicating long ago. Recently she pinged me through FB & I responded, but again, she didn't respond back. I think he's still monitoring her accounts. I wonder what she would do if she knew that? Ahhh, who cares.

They are a nasty group, imo. Good luck to your niece.

[mr blur]

4. Well, I don't know anyone who's religious, but if it were me,

I like to think I'd say something.
Sorry, that's no use to you.

[libodem]

3. Not easy to stand by

But can you do?

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[progree]

26. But what happens if the rapist can't come up with the 50 shekels of silver?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/22.html

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

[Iggo]

6. I like to reply using their own words, so if I was gonna reply to something like that...

...I'd probably go with "It is so sad to see young families bringing their little ones to the lord."

I'd type it, look at it, get up, walk around the block, come back, grab a drink, sit down, look at it again, and then I'd probably delete it. The xian butthurt in my family can be of epic proportions.

[A HERETIC I AM]

18. LOL....yup.

I'll probably just let it go. One guy in Florida stands no chance against a battalion in Illinois!

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Hook 'em while they're young.

Indoctrinate them into the faith before they develop critical thinking skills. Present them no alternatives. Etc.

It's vile. Truly vile.


If my kid grows up and finds faith somehow, fine. I'll accept that. You won't find me programming him with bullshit though. Not going to happen.

I feel sorry for your grand-niece.

I'd say something like "I suppose it would be out of the question to wait until Renee' is an adult or has at least learned how to reason before indoctrinating her into a faith she didn't knowingly choose of her own volition."


This is why I call religion a socially transmitted disease. That phrasing sure ruffled some feathers in the other forum...

[onager]

11. Well, we can hook 'em young too.

Even if we can't get the hook in as deeply as the Fundies. Who will be dragging the kid to church constantly.

Especially at such a young age, maybe it's enough to occasionally remind the kid "Not everybody believes that" or "People believe many different things."

I'm still thinking about a guy who was in the documentary "American Jesus." He's a non-believer nowadays, but was raised around a grandfather who was an old-time, jump-and-holler Fundamentalist preacher in the South.

One day he decided to have a talk with grandpa that went something like this. He was expecting a rantful sermon in response:

"Grandpa, I'm having serious doubts about some of the stuff I learned in church."

"That's OK. Lots of people have doubts."

"It's worse than that. I'm starting to even doubt God exists."

"That's OK too. My path in life led me to believe deeply in God and my faith. Your path may lead you somewhere different. If it leads you to believe God doesn't even exist, then so be it. That's just the path you'll have to follow."

I was amazed by that. WTF? Zen Fundamentalism?

[A HERETIC I AM]

17. "Socially transmitted disease"

No fucking doubt!

Thanks.

[A HERETIC I AM]

16. You're very kind.

Again, please see my post below to clarify the relationships.

As far as why my sis married the fundy, honestly I think it is because she was terrified of being alone. Divorced and then widowed by her 2nd husband, this 3rd one was, at least the way I see it, a man to be with, if you get my drift.

Hey...she may well and truly love him to pieces, but I want nothing to do with him, as I consider him to be about as interesting as the aforementioned turnip.

[A HERETIC I AM]

20. First one she divorced, the second passed away.

Her first husband is the father of her daughter and son. The second died a mere 6 months after they were married.

Fundymobile is #3. No kids but they have been together for about 14 years now.

[A HERETIC I AM]

23. Just remember that this thread isn't about my sister!

But OK...

Works

They pool their resources but together they maybe clear $50K

My sister is the kind of person that could eat fatback and cake all day and not gain an ounce, so yes.

No...well...maybe a week or 10 days.

The rest is a long story that doesn't need to be related here. Suffice to say, if she is happy with the turnip, so be it.

[Lordquinton]

9. "it ain't my kid"

That doesn't seem to stop the rest of her family.

[A HERETIC I AM]

15. No, it doesn't does it?

They all live in the Chicago area and I am 1100 miles south, so it isn't as if I have to interact with that crowd at all.

So there is that.

[Warpy]

10. I have no idea what the attraction to a right wing fundy nutjob might be

unless maybe "good provider" was at the top of her list and the bar was set really low.

However, you're right, it's none of your business. Just set up your Farcebook so that none of their fundegelical nutjob friends can access it to keep your blood pressure down.

The little girl will be capable of rebellion. I know I was. While recovering from a childhood full of religion and all those crazy equations in your head is difficult, it's doable.

She'll have an uncle to help her along the way when it happens and that's an advantage I didn't have.

[A HERETIC I AM]

13. Let me be a bit more clear....

My sister is the one who married the fundy. Her GRAND daughter - my niece's daughter is the 3 year old in question.

So I suppose the 3 year old is my Grand Niece.

My niece married a guy whose religious predilections are unknown to me, outside of the fact that he is taking his wife and child to church. I have met the young man and...well...he ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, to be sure.

At least it is an Episcopal church. That's a far cry from the 10K year old earth crowd. Episcopalians, by and large, tend to be a bit more rational than your average Southern Baptist!


There are a few other troubling things too, like the posts of her wearing an apron and baking cookies with her paternal grandmother. it is harmless, I suppose, but it is a stereotype being forced on her - a woman's place is in the kitchen - that sort of thing that also bothers me.

But yes, I'll be here for her to answer questions honestly as long as I live.

[Warpy]

24. Oh, that's not so bad, except it isn't ugly enough to incite rebellion in 10 years or so.

Most Anglicans I know are quite rational. That's why I send disgusted Catholics who still believe over to them. Same church, just not under hopelessly corrupt Rome.

And for the sex typing, at least she's being taught some useful stuff. Maybe the school or her first boyfriend or even you will teach her what she's missing from somebody stuck in the 1950s.

[progressoid]

12. If trends continue, it's likely she, like you, will break free from church life.

Of course, in the mean time, it's a painful waste of time and resources.

There was a lot of pressure for my daughters to attend church and believe. In fact, they did attend for many years with my wife. I quietly ignored it. Fast forward about 8 years and we are all now church free heathens!

[A HERETIC I AM]

14. LOL...Good for you!

Not sure of the breaking free thing though. You never know.

We'll see.

[progressoid]

25. Yeah, I was just trying to be an optimist for a change.

The opposite is likely as well. I've seen people who I thought were intelligent, level headed people go off the religious deep end. Hope she isn't one of them.

[Curmudgeoness]

22. Yes, it pisses me off too.

But I was raised in a church and it didn't matter in the end. Although I will say that the fundie churches are a bit scary.

If you think that you should say something, say it in a personal email to your sister, not on Facebook. Or talk to her in person about your concerns. Just don't put her on the defense in public.