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Sam Harris on the Chapel Hill murders and militant atheism (Original Post) MellowDem Feb 2015 OP
He spelled it out quite clearly, at least from the excerpts. arcane1 Feb 2015 #1
Harris pretty much nails it there skepticscott Feb 2015 #2
No wonder Harris is hated soooo much. trotsky Feb 2015 #3
Hard to believe that anyone on DU can like Reza Aslan skepticscott Feb 2015 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author Pacifist Patriot Feb 2015 #5
When you style yourself as a Very Smart Person skepticscott Feb 2015 #6
Because the #1 priority for some people is to avoid difficult discussion. trotsky Feb 2015 #7
Not to mention the more subtle, but still ugly bigotry skepticscott Feb 2015 #9
"How dare you take them at their word, you islamaphobic racist bigot!" Warren Stupidity Feb 2015 #14
Is this the same Harris edhopper Feb 2015 #8
yes, plus he said that a nuclear strike in self defense against a nuclear armed islamic nation Warren Stupidity Feb 2015 #10
Yes, it is the same Sam Harris that wrote this lie-filled racist garbage: cpwm17 Feb 2015 #11
At this point hammas and hezbollah are moderate agents in the disastrous sectarian conflict in the Warren Stupidity Feb 2015 #12
You're right, I think cpwm17 Feb 2015 #13
While there is much to criticize about Israel edhopper Feb 2015 #16
Saddam Hussein probably would be too skepticscott Feb 2015 #15
Since when did "Muslims" become a "race"? trotsky Feb 2015 #17
Harris supports wars against people cpwm17 Feb 2015 #18
"Racist" trotsky Feb 2015 #19
Negative cpwm17 Feb 2015 #21
By that logic, the Japanese were racist skepticscott Feb 2015 #24
They were edhopper Feb 2015 #25
Not to mention several large Native American tribes... onager Feb 2015 #26
Wow, Onager! haikugal Feb 2015 #31
You're welcome! Another fun search... onager Feb 2015 #33
I realize this might be overly complex for you, but here goes: Goblinmonger Feb 2015 #32
Wow, that's about as non-sequtirious as it gets skepticscott Feb 2015 #20
You can keep on defending that right-wing war-monger cpwm17 Feb 2015 #22
Where have I defended him against charges of being a war-monger? skepticscott Feb 2015 #23
You keep bringing up other topics to distract from the OP arcane1 Feb 2015 #27
you lie about Harris Lordquinton Feb 2015 #28
I suspect our friend's racism pointer skepticscott Feb 2015 #29
Do you think it's possible to criticize the Muslim belief system without racism? LiberalAndProud Feb 2015 #30
I like how he turns their accusations back around at them at the end. LostOne4Ever Feb 2015 #34
 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
1. He spelled it out quite clearly, at least from the excerpts.
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:43 AM
Feb 2015

Thank you for posting this! I don't think the whole thing could be broken down and explained better than he just did.

I especially liked this part:


But perhaps people like Greenwald and Aslan think that criticizing Islam is just dangerous because it could be misunderstood by bad people [fascists and the like]. Well, by that standard we can’t criticize anything. As Ali Rizvi pointed out, this would be like saying we can’t criticize US foreign-policy because some number of people overseas will become so agitated by this criticism, by reading Noam Chomsky or Glenn Greenwald, that they will then kill U.S. tourists at random. Is that possible? Sure it’s possible. But we have to be able to criticize U.S. foreign policy.

Some of what people like Chomsky and Greenwald write about U.S. foreign policy is correct. Should they be held responsible if some deranged person takes their writing and uses it as a basis for intolerance or even murder? No. Of course not. And the same can be said of any criticism or of doctrine of Islam.





Exactly!!

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
2. Harris pretty much nails it there
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 07:39 AM
Feb 2015

And trashes pretty much all of the apologist crap that's been spouted over on Religion ever since the Paris murders. And the sad thing is, it's all very simple, and when he puts it the way he does, you shake your head that any rational person can argue against it. But they do…the depths of intellectual dishonesty and delusion that religionists here and elsewhere have sunk to in the wake of these events is truly mind-boggling. Ironically, they don't even grasp that it's part of the same problem..this is what religion and the defense of religion does to people. Some people pull triggers and set off bombs, some people lie and argue as irrationally as can be imagined, but they're all symptoms caused by the same thing. Hitchens would be gratified to see the proof of how much religion poisons things.

Bookmarked for extensive future use.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
3. No wonder Harris is hated soooo much.
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 09:11 AM
Feb 2015

Their flimsy apologetics and insane defense of the religious causes of violence are completely eviscerated by him. All they have left is to attack his character - and if you can't find the right dirt, just make it up. Like people have done right here on DU, claiming atheists would just "go back" to hating women, minorities, and LGBTQers if they didn't hate the religious. Hard to believe someone can spout such raw prejudice and consider themselves liberal or progressive.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
4. Hard to believe that anyone on DU can like Reza Aslan
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 09:43 AM
Feb 2015

After having had it demonstrated over and over that he just lies. Flat out, blatantly, brazenly LIES. And then, after his lies are pointed out, goes back and lies some more. Rather like people who claim that certain posters "blame religion for everything". Birds of a lying feather..flock together. And all in defense of religion. Pathetic.

Response to skepticscott (Reply #4)

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
6. When you style yourself as a Very Smart Person
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:28 AM
Feb 2015

and tell people what they desperately need and want to hear, they will flock to you. There are a lot of thought-limited people out there who would much rather cling to idiotic ideas than examine then critically, so when they find someone validating those ideas, they just love them. Why else is Rush Limbaugh so popular? Stupid fans who need to think that a Smart Person agrees with them.

Then of course, there are people, like some posters here, who you'd think would know better, but still fawn over Aslan and people like him.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
7. Because the #1 priority for some people is to avoid difficult discussion.
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:07 AM
Feb 2015

"ISIL extremists aren't Muslims." Case closed. No discussion. Everybody can stop worrying about religion now, it's all happy unicorns and fuzzy pink bunnies and rainbows shooting out of our asses.

Never mind about the implications of claiming that horrible acts are ALWAYS free of religious motivation or influence - namely, that all the true evil in the world is only committed by non-believers. It is that horrible bigotry that constitutes the very ugly side of that unicorns and rainbows message.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
9. Not to mention the more subtle, but still ugly bigotry
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:47 AM
Feb 2015

expressed when certain posters take it on themselves to decide who is a "true" Muslim and who isn't, in spite of how religious believers choose to label themselves.

Bigoted and supremely arrogant.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
8. Is this the same Harris
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 11:42 AM
Feb 2015

who said "Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas" and is therefore as guilty as every Ayatollah and Mullah that issued a fatwah or ordered a stoning?

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
10. yes, plus he said that a nuclear strike in self defense against a nuclear armed islamic nation
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:05 PM
Feb 2015

would be unconscionable and unthinkable, which means he would enthusiastically support doing that.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
11. Yes, it is the same Sam Harris that wrote this lie-filled racist garbage:
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:12 PM
Feb 2015
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/

But my correspondence with liberals has convinced me that liberalism has grown dangerously out of touch with the realities of our world — specifically with what devout Muslims actually believe about the West, about paradise and about the ultimate ascendance of their faith. On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right.

This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that “liberals are soft on terrorism.” It is, and they are.
A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a “war on terror.” We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise....

In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.
We are entering an age of unchecked nuclear proliferation and, it seems likely, nuclear terrorism. There is, therefore, no future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors for us. Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies.


and the same lying, racist fuck that supported these atrocities against the Gaza Strip:

Palestinians indiscriminately murdered and used as human shields in Gaza by Israelis:


Israeli destruction of neighborhood in the Gaza Strip:






and Iraq:

gratuitous mass-murder:


Innocent victims: Baghdad shop owner Abu Abdullah, right, cried following 2007 U.S. bomb strike which killed two of his sons:


massive unprovoked terrorst attack: shock and awe:




 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
12. At this point hammas and hezbollah are moderate agents in the disastrous sectarian conflict in the
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:30 PM
Feb 2015

middle east.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
13. You're right, I think
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 12:43 PM
Feb 2015

Hamas and Hezbollah are theocratic, but relatively tolerant as theocrats go - perhaps Hezbollah more so? Hezbollah seems to be aligned with the Christians since the Christians in Lebanon trust them to fight ISIS, and also Israel when Israel attacks.

We need to pull out of the region and stop supporting Saudi Arabia and Israel, which are doing their best to make the region a disaster area.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
16. While there is much to criticize about Israel
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:23 PM
Feb 2015

how do you equate a western democracy with a Theocratic Fiefdom?

In how many of the conflict Israel has had do you consider them the aggressor?

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
15. Saddam Hussein probably would be too
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:05 PM
Feb 2015

But of course, in the wisdom of BushCheney, he was displaced and whacked, with the confidence that whatever filled the inevitable power vacuum "couldn't possibly be worse"

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
18. Harris supports wars against people
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:33 PM
Feb 2015

using lies to demonize and dehumanize the victims throughout an entire region. Bombs land on people, not religions. He's a racist.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
21. Negative
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 02:36 PM
Feb 2015

By your logic, our wars against Native Americans weren't due to racism, it was due to their alleged savage nature. Some of the settlers called them savages, so by your logic, they weren't racist.

Or would have the settlers had to have attacked the Native Americans due to their savage and violent religion? Maybe they wouldn't have been racist then?

Lying about and starting wars against a people that one considers different than oneself is racism (correctly used in this context), regardless of whatever made-up excuse for the aggression. You think by lying about the victim and claiming it was due to the victims religion, it somehow makes it all OK.

It's a distinction without a difference, whatever excuse one claims for the aggression. Almost nobody comes right out and says they are attacking the victim due to the color of their skin or the shape of their face. There is usually a rationalization.

onager

(9,356 posts)
26. Not to mention several large Native American tribes...
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 03:59 PM
Feb 2015
Cherokee Declaration of Causes (October 28, 1861)

...Whatever causes the Cherokee people may have had in the past, to complain of some of the Southern States, they cannot but feel that their interests and their destiny are inseparably connected with those of the South. The war now raging is a war of Northern cupidity and fanaticism against the institution of African servitude; against the commercial freedom of the South, and against the political freedom of the States, and its objects are to annihilate the sovereignty of those States and utterly change the nature of the General Government...

Urged by these considerations, the Cherokees, long divided in opinion, became unanimous, and like their brethren, the Creeks, Seminoles, Choctaws, and Chickasaws, determined, by the undivided voice of a General Convention of all the people, held at Tahlequah, on the 21st day of August, in the present year, to make common cause with the South and share its fortunes.


http://www.cherokee.org/AboutTheNation/History/Events/CherokeeDeclarationofCauses(October28,1861).aspx

onager

(9,356 posts)
33. You're welcome! Another fun search...
Fri Feb 20, 2015, 12:17 AM
Feb 2015

Yemassee War.

That one almost wiped out South Carolina as a colony, in the early 18th Century.

Began with the various tribes - reasonably enough - trying to kick the British colonists off their lands.

IIRC, the turning point was when the Cherokee changed sides, joined with the British, and attacked their former alliy, the Creeks.

Still, not everybody on both sides hated each other. The little corner of SC where I grew up had a charming legend about a Cherokee woman and a white trader who fell in love and moved in together - just like couples do today.

Her father and brothers were not a bit happy with that arrangement, and decided to express their displeasure by killing the white guy. But he was off on a trading trip and they didn't know where to find him.

The woman did, and according to the legend, she rode about 100 miles on horseback to warn him and save his life.

That probably never happened, but I sure hope it did.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
32. I realize this might be overly complex for you, but here goes:
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 10:10 PM
Feb 2015

Islam IS NOT a race.
Indigenous Peoples ARE a race.

Ponder that for a bit. I'm not saying if our war against the Native Americans in the US was or wasn't racist, but it at least could be because they are a race. Muslims are not. Actually, isn't it kind of racist to assume that a comment against Islam is racist because the person assuming it is racist is assuming that all Muslims are Arabs--which is racist.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
20. Wow, that's about as non-sequtirious as it gets
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:50 PM
Feb 2015

Nounverbnounverbadjectivenounadverbverbnoun...THAT PROVES HE'S A RACIST!!

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
22. You can keep on defending that right-wing war-monger
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 02:41 PM
Feb 2015

if it makes you feel better.

War is the worst crime known to man. Sam Harris likes wars (he promote wars, so he likes wars), and he lies about the victims to promote the wars.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
23. Where have I defended him against charges of being a war-monger?
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 03:01 PM
Feb 2015

Nowhere. Speaking of lies.

War-monger does not equal "racist", and your attempts to conflate the two are midguided and deeply dishonest.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
27. You keep bringing up other topics to distract from the OP
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:11 PM
Feb 2015

Here is a revelation for you: a person can be right about one thing, and wrong about another.

I hope you were sitting down for that.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
30. Do you think it's possible to criticize the Muslim belief system without racism?
Thu Feb 19, 2015, 06:19 PM
Feb 2015

Is there any way, in your mind to separate race from religion; or are they so analogous as to be synonymous?

What are your thoughts on this piece by Harris? Agree, disagree, or do you care?

LostOne4Ever

(9,289 posts)
34. I like how he turns their accusations back around at them at the end.
Fri Feb 20, 2015, 06:36 AM
Feb 2015

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal] If the so called "New Atheists" criticism are inciting violence against muslims then criticism of the "New Atheists" must be inciting violence against them.

Perfect way to point out the insanity of that whole argument.[/font]

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