Atheists & Agnostics
Related: About this forumSam Harris on the Chapel Hill murders and militant atheism
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/02/18/sam-harris-on-the-chapel-hill-murders-and-militant-atheism-and-why-he-now-fears-for-his-safety/Addresses a lot of the false comparisons seen in the media and in here, and addresses,some,of,the willful misrepresentations of atheism in order to make it just another religion, and make apologetics for other religions a bit easier.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Thank you for posting this! I don't think the whole thing could be broken down and explained better than he just did.
I especially liked this part:
But perhaps people like Greenwald and Aslan think that criticizing Islam is just dangerous because it could be misunderstood by bad people [fascists and the like]. Well, by that standard we cant criticize anything. As Ali Rizvi pointed out, this would be like saying we cant criticize US foreign-policy because some number of people overseas will become so agitated by this criticism, by reading Noam Chomsky or Glenn Greenwald, that they will then kill U.S. tourists at random. Is that possible? Sure its possible. But we have to be able to criticize U.S. foreign policy.
Some of what people like Chomsky and Greenwald write about U.S. foreign policy is correct. Should they be held responsible if some deranged person takes their writing and uses it as a basis for intolerance or even murder? No. Of course not. And the same can be said of any criticism or of doctrine of Islam.
Exactly!!
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)And trashes pretty much all of the apologist crap that's been spouted over on Religion ever since the Paris murders. And the sad thing is, it's all very simple, and when he puts it the way he does, you shake your head that any rational person can argue against it. But they do
the depths of intellectual dishonesty and delusion that religionists here and elsewhere have sunk to in the wake of these events is truly mind-boggling. Ironically, they don't even grasp that it's part of the same problem..this is what religion and the defense of religion does to people. Some people pull triggers and set off bombs, some people lie and argue as irrationally as can be imagined, but they're all symptoms caused by the same thing. Hitchens would be gratified to see the proof of how much religion poisons things.
Bookmarked for extensive future use.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Their flimsy apologetics and insane defense of the religious causes of violence are completely eviscerated by him. All they have left is to attack his character - and if you can't find the right dirt, just make it up. Like people have done right here on DU, claiming atheists would just "go back" to hating women, minorities, and LGBTQers if they didn't hate the religious. Hard to believe someone can spout such raw prejudice and consider themselves liberal or progressive.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)After having had it demonstrated over and over that he just lies. Flat out, blatantly, brazenly LIES. And then, after his lies are pointed out, goes back and lies some more. Rather like people who claim that certain posters "blame religion for everything". Birds of a lying feather..flock together. And all in defense of religion. Pathetic.
Response to skepticscott (Reply #4)
Pacifist Patriot This message was self-deleted by its author.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)and tell people what they desperately need and want to hear, they will flock to you. There are a lot of thought-limited people out there who would much rather cling to idiotic ideas than examine then critically, so when they find someone validating those ideas, they just love them. Why else is Rush Limbaugh so popular? Stupid fans who need to think that a Smart Person agrees with them.
Then of course, there are people, like some posters here, who you'd think would know better, but still fawn over Aslan and people like him.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)"ISIL extremists aren't Muslims." Case closed. No discussion. Everybody can stop worrying about religion now, it's all happy unicorns and fuzzy pink bunnies and rainbows shooting out of our asses.
Never mind about the implications of claiming that horrible acts are ALWAYS free of religious motivation or influence - namely, that all the true evil in the world is only committed by non-believers. It is that horrible bigotry that constitutes the very ugly side of that unicorns and rainbows message.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)expressed when certain posters take it on themselves to decide who is a "true" Muslim and who isn't, in spite of how religious believers choose to label themselves.
Bigoted and supremely arrogant.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)edhopper
(33,580 posts)who said "Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas" and is therefore as guilty as every Ayatollah and Mullah that issued a fatwah or ordered a stoning?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)would be unconscionable and unthinkable, which means he would enthusiastically support doing that.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that liberals are soft on terrorism. It is, and they are.
A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a war on terror. We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise....
In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.
Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.
We are entering an age of unchecked nuclear proliferation and, it seems likely, nuclear terrorism. There is, therefore, no future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors for us. Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies.
and the same lying, racist fuck that supported these atrocities against the Gaza Strip:
Palestinians indiscriminately murdered and used as human shields in Gaza by Israelis:
Israeli destruction of neighborhood in the Gaza Strip:
and Iraq:
gratuitous mass-murder:
Innocent victims: Baghdad shop owner Abu Abdullah, right, cried following 2007 U.S. bomb strike which killed two of his sons:
massive unprovoked terrorst attack: shock and awe:
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)middle east.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Hamas and Hezbollah are theocratic, but relatively tolerant as theocrats go - perhaps Hezbollah more so? Hezbollah seems to be aligned with the Christians since the Christians in Lebanon trust them to fight ISIS, and also Israel when Israel attacks.
We need to pull out of the region and stop supporting Saudi Arabia and Israel, which are doing their best to make the region a disaster area.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)how do you equate a western democracy with a Theocratic Fiefdom?
In how many of the conflict Israel has had do you consider them the aggressor?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)But of course, in the wisdom of BushCheney, he was displaced and whacked, with the confidence that whatever filled the inevitable power vacuum "couldn't possibly be worse"
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Are Christians a race?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)using lies to demonize and dehumanize the victims throughout an entire region. Bombs land on people, not religions. He's a racist.
By your logic, our wars against Native Americans weren't due to racism, it was due to their alleged savage nature. Some of the settlers called them savages, so by your logic, they weren't racist.
Or would have the settlers had to have attacked the Native Americans due to their savage and violent religion? Maybe they wouldn't have been racist then?
Lying about and starting wars against a people that one considers different than oneself is racism (correctly used in this context), regardless of whatever made-up excuse for the aggression. You think by lying about the victim and claiming it was due to the victims religion, it somehow makes it all OK.
It's a distinction without a difference, whatever excuse one claims for the aggression. Almost nobody comes right out and says they are attacking the victim due to the color of their skin or the shape of their face. There is usually a rationalization.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)when they started WW II with us.
edhopper
(33,580 posts)a little.
onager
(9,356 posts)...Whatever causes the Cherokee people may have had in the past, to complain of some of the Southern States, they cannot but feel that their interests and their destiny are inseparably connected with those of the South. The war now raging is a war of Northern cupidity and fanaticism against the institution of African servitude; against the commercial freedom of the South, and against the political freedom of the States, and its objects are to annihilate the sovereignty of those States and utterly change the nature of the General Government...
Urged by these considerations, the Cherokees, long divided in opinion, became unanimous, and like their brethren, the Creeks, Seminoles, Choctaws, and Chickasaws, determined, by the undivided voice of a General Convention of all the people, held at Tahlequah, on the 21st day of August, in the present year, to make common cause with the South and share its fortunes.
http://www.cherokee.org/AboutTheNation/History/Events/CherokeeDeclarationofCauses(October28,1861).aspx
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I didn't know about this bit of history. Thank you!
onager
(9,356 posts)Yemassee War.
That one almost wiped out South Carolina as a colony, in the early 18th Century.
Began with the various tribes - reasonably enough - trying to kick the British colonists off their lands.
IIRC, the turning point was when the Cherokee changed sides, joined with the British, and attacked their former alliy, the Creeks.
Still, not everybody on both sides hated each other. The little corner of SC where I grew up had a charming legend about a Cherokee woman and a white trader who fell in love and moved in together - just like couples do today.
Her father and brothers were not a bit happy with that arrangement, and decided to express their displeasure by killing the white guy. But he was off on a trading trip and they didn't know where to find him.
The woman did, and according to the legend, she rode about 100 miles on horseback to warn him and save his life.
That probably never happened, but I sure hope it did.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Islam IS NOT a race.
Indigenous Peoples ARE a race.
Ponder that for a bit. I'm not saying if our war against the Native Americans in the US was or wasn't racist, but it at least could be because they are a race. Muslims are not. Actually, isn't it kind of racist to assume that a comment against Islam is racist because the person assuming it is racist is assuming that all Muslims are Arabs--which is racist.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Nounverbnounverbadjectivenounadverbverbnoun...THAT PROVES HE'S A RACIST!!
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)if it makes you feel better.
War is the worst crime known to man. Sam Harris likes wars (he promote wars, so he likes wars), and he lies about the victims to promote the wars.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Nowhere. Speaking of lies.
War-monger does not equal "racist", and your attempts to conflate the two are midguided and deeply dishonest.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Here is a revelation for you: a person can be right about one thing, and wrong about another.
I hope you were sitting down for that.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)So that puts you in the same company, doesn't it?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)only aims in one direction.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Is there any way, in your mind to separate race from religion; or are they so analogous as to be synonymous?
What are your thoughts on this piece by Harris? Agree, disagree, or do you care?
LostOne4Ever
(9,289 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal] If the so called "New Atheists" criticism are inciting violence against muslims then criticism of the "New Atheists" must be inciting violence against them.
Perfect way to point out the insanity of that whole argument.[/font]