Anyone notice a new concentrated agenda on the religion forum?

[citysyde]

Articles with anecdotal information, by publishers on web sites and blogs, intended make atheism look silly, to look adolescent, to look inferior to Christianity and inferior to liberal accepting Christian viewpoints from Christians?

Somehow, I'm finding a theme there, <<atheists are just immature adolescents>> and "Christianity is the only true liberal way to be an American. I'm getting this message... if you want links, I'll supply 4 or 5.. but I think there are a dozen I have read in the last week or two.

Christians, and even Jewish folks, and even Mormons, all of them are more accepting of diversity than atheists could ever be!!!! That's the message I keep reading there!

Are you all getting the same message?

[phantom power]

1. I don't mostly care what goes on in the Religion forum...

maybe I should, but I don't.

[Shadowflash]

2. How?

How in the world can people who believe in talking snakes, a 6000 yr old Earth, people coming back from the dead and virgin births make People who don't look silly?

[citysyde]

3. I guess it has to do with the NTS, No True...

Scotsman.

They talk about atheists who returned to the Christian fold.

I'm tempted to post that those atheists were "not true atheists" but that would look a bit silly.

Not all Christians believe in the 7 days of creation, the 6000 or so age of the Earth, nor the snake tempting Eve.

I guess liberal Christians are free to believe and not believe, and, in THAT way, are like atheists, but few would ever admit the similarity of rejection of so much of the dogma, acceptance of ONLY those parts of the dogma that make them look, well, kind of atheistic, with regard to the teachings of the Bible.

Funny how some of them keep holding onto the the last vestiges of Christian thinking, throwing out so much, but not ALL the bullshit. Strange and somehow funny that they just don't jump over the river to the other side and see how religion enslaves them even now.

And they feel SO SUPERIOR to atheists, while they are so enslaved.

[OriginalGeek]

4. lol!

literally. I sacred the people outside my office door.

I was gonna ask "new? Since when has that not been a large part of religion?"

[Curmudgeoness]

5. I can't be bothered with these people.

Going to Religion is like allowing the Jehovah's Witnesses at the door come in and sit down for a chat. Like I would do that!

For the record, I am 58, so I am not some immature adolescent.....in fact, when I WAS an immature adolescent, I had not considered that there was no god. I just believed without thinking about it until I matured and became a thinking person. I suppose that they get that attitude of who we are because the young ones are the most visible. They can continue to delude themselves if that makes them feel better about themselves. No skin off my teeth!

[laconicsax]

6. FWIW: Citycyde is no longer with us so don't expect any replies.

And yes, citycyde, that's the MO of a couple posters in the Religion group.

[Starboard Tack]

7. Do you always support trolls, or just Mark Charles? Sorry, Citycide, LOL.

Good to know where you stand.

[laconicsax]

8. What?

Could you try that again and maybe make sense this time?

[Starboard Tack]

10. I'm sure you'll figure it out, when you're not trying to connect pedophilia to homosexuals.

You really need to figure out whose side you are on. Seems like you fall for this guy's subterfuge every time. SamG, MarkCharles, citycide, aka major fucking troll. You spend a lot more time around here than I do and I can smell him a mile away. Hey, I could be wrong. You never know, and if I am, shame on me. Logic tells me I'm not, though. Who else would keep returning and stirring up shit in the same old way, acting like he lived here and has less than 100 posts?

[eqfan592]

16. Oh what a load of bullshit, Starboard Tack

"connect pedophilia to homosexuals?" If ANYBODY was doing that in that thread it was you, pure and simple. And while I don't think that was your intention in the least, that WAS the implication you were giving off, and I was far from the only one who thought that. Now you can say that isn't what you meant, and I believe you, but going around and trying to connect that to somebody else? Talk about reaching a new low.

I really have tried my best to remain civil with you in our discussions, but when I see you post garbage like this (not to mention some of the stuff over in the Religion forum), it makes it nearly impossible.

[Starboard Tack]

19. Well, talk about a seesaw of a thread.

You thought I was making the connection, but not really. WTF? There was no way I ever made that connection and you know it. I was baited and stalked in an attempt to get me to say something that would give the triumvirate a good reason to block me from here or get thrown out of DU. I'm sorry you think I've reached a "new low", because I have always counted you among those who are not part of the lynch mob. I stand up for anyone I see being bullied and I don't like being part of a group that is led by bullies and their toadies. We have some members here who are genuinely looking for support in their personal struggles against fundamentalist bigotry. Those are the people I care about.

[WhollyHeretic]

20. Yes it was a conspiracy against you not the fact that you communicated poorly.

Care to back up your attack on laconicsax? When did they try to make that connection?

[Starboard Tack]

22. Do your own research, if you really care.

If you want to believe she is motivated by my poor communication skills, that's fine by me.

[WhollyHeretic]

23. You make an accusation like that and you need to back it up. Otherwise that is some pretty vile

behavior.

[Starboard Tack]

24. I didn't name her. You did.

Read through our various threads and you'll see the vile behavior. Let me know if you really want to open that can of worms and maybe I'll indulge you.

[WhollyHeretic]

27. ?? "I'm sure you'll figure it out, when you're not trying to connect pedophilia to homosexuals."

That's just a couple of posts upthread that you addressed to laconicsax. You do realize that everyone can see posts right? Please show me where laconicsax made that connection I will apologize to you and call for her removal.

[Starboard Tack]

32. Good luck with that!

Backtrack a little, you'll find it. Check the tag team connection with Julie, it will all become clearer. Then use your search function to find previous inquisitions, insinuating real world relationships with other DUers, heaven forbid, and my need to return to the real world after having the audacity to prefer living off the grid, which she thought was some kind of anti-social survivalist behavior. Maybe you missed the fiascos with rug and cbayer, who she blocked from the group and then announced the fact, creating a grave dance among the sycophants and toadies and a flamefest in Meta.

[Goblinmonger]

33. So wait, which is it?

Is it a triumvirate or is laconicsax a run-away dictator?

Because I very specifically remember having a lengthy discussion with the other two hosts about cbayer and what we should do? Maybe laconicsax just planted those memories in my brain through her sheer evilness.

[Starboard Tack]

38. You're asking me that question?

I think you should be asking yourself all those questions? I guess you are. BTW, I don't think anyone here is evil, or even close to evil. We all act somewhat juvenile at times and the anonymity of an internet blog permits us that freedom, but sometimes these squabbles get out of hand and can be hurtful. Let's try to be a little more respectful of each other and we might have some interesting conversations that we can all learn from.

[laconicsax]

43. Thank you for being amazingly dishonest.

When I asked you about living off the grid, I was curious about your Internet use because the only people I knew of at that time who lived "off the grid" were survivalists. You educated me on how things really are and I accepted it. It was never an attack and was a cordial conversation. Now, to re-frame that as an attack is beyond the pale.

Also, your apparent loathing of me may led to you forgetting what happened when cbayer was blocked: She started the flamefest in Meta on her own then tried to expand it to the Hosts group. My only role in the whole thing was clicking the buttons to block her after all of the group hosts decided that it was time for her to go and later explaining the rationale for that decision. I tend to make the administrative posts in this group--SoP, election, and announcement threads. That doesn't make me some kind of rogue host wielding power like a tinpot tyrant.

I'm not sure that the rest of the group here appreciates being called "sycophants and toadies" and your willingness to attack them as a whole really undercuts your calls for more civil dialog.

[Starboard Tack]

45. Good! Sounds like you might be getting the message.

Now all you have to do is stop trying to justify your baiting and we can have some constructive debate about real issues.

[laconicsax]

47. I rebut everything you posted and you say "sounds like you might be getting the message?"

The only message I'm getting is that you aren't terribly concerned about facts when it comes to airing (and inventing) your grievances.

Your behavior in this thread is disgusting.

[Starboard Tack]

51. You can rebut all day long

The important thing is that you learn something from the experience. You don't know me, I don't know you, but if we can learn from each other, then we both gain from the experience. This asshole citycide, MarkCharles, Samg, whatever, is not an atheist, he is a disruptor who comes here to divide us and set us at each others' throats. Please don't be an enabler. We have better things to do.

[tkmorris]

74. You're a funny guy

"This asshole... is not an atheist, he is a disruptor who comes here to divide us and set us at each others' throats."

Usually your posts are just tediously pedantic, but it seems you are capable of posting a truism occasionally. Blind squirrels and all that.

[Rainforestgoddess]

60. Darn!

I was going to apply for the "sycophant/toady" position later today, I didn't realise there were already so many.

[laconicsax]

62. Yeah, you missed the cut off.

I think all the sycophants and toadies got the job by disagreeing with Starboard Tack in these two threads (both locked):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12307297
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12307612

[kdmorris]

73. I'm amazed you are still allowed to post here

You are amazingly nasty about not just our hosts, but us, too (really? sycophants and toadies????). Do you come here strictly to attack laconicsax? Or do you talk about Atheism in between your angry (and unjust) attacks? From my point of view, this has shown an amazing amount of restraint on the part of our hosts.

I will reiterate for you ONE MORE TIME... slowly... so that you understand it.

Laconicsax did not block anyone from the group and announce the fact. OUR HOSTS blocked people from the group and then told us that they had done it (because all of us who have been here since Dec LIKE to know when someone has been blocked and why). If the majority of people said "whoa, dude, that is completely not right", then they would have unblocked them (I assume... there has never been a time when a majority of people who are members of this group said that it was wrong).

I welcome the day when I come over here and see "Starboard Tack has been blocked from this group" for being anti-social and using this group to carry out a vendetta against one of our hosts. And I will post "good" to that. If that makes me a grave-dancing sycophant... well, I guess I'll live with that. I've been called far worse from others on DU.

Or is that what you are hoping for, so that you can keep the drama alive and go talk more in meta about those mean atheists who won't just let you come in to their group and attack their hosts?

Grow up man.

[Starboard Tack]

76. With respect, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm sure will be enlightened shortly.

[kdmorris]

81. Someone will be enlightened shortly I'm sure

"respectfully"... do you know what that word means? I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Goblinmonger]

29. "Triumvirate"?! Nice.

I like it. Makes us sound a whole hell of a lot more important than we actually are. Can I put that on my resume?

[Starboard Tack]

35. You like that? I thought it was rather good. Feel free to use it. LOL

[eqfan592]

63. It's called "the benefit of the doubt."

I never said I thought you were making the connection, I said if anybody SEEMED to be, it was you. But I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a part of any lynch mobs. But when I see bull shit like what you posted, I call it out.

[Starboard Tack]

64. Why would I SEEM to be making the connection if I wasn't?

Come on, can't you see the absurdity of your contradiction. Your own intellect told you that that I made no connection, yet you picked up on the hysteria (doesn't take much to generate that around here) that, somehow, because I made an analogy between BSA and pedophilia and the fox taking care of the chicken coop, but it happened to be posted in a thread about BSA changing it's rules about accepting gay kids. My trigger was BSA, not the gay kids. I've met a few victims of pedophiles and I tend to be a little wary of certain organizations, though I know BSA does an excellent job overall.

[eqfan592]

65. My "intellect" told me you were making the connection.

It was my willingness to give you the benefit of the doubt that told me otherwise, and that is what I went with. There is no "absurdity" about it, as this is a relatively normal set of circumstances (intellect faced with evidence that the emotional part of the brain is unwilling to accept).

And to be perfectly frank, your inability to understand such a simple concept is not lending yourself any credibility with either side of my brain.

[Starboard Tack]

67. OK. Respect.

[Goblinmonger]

66. Um, really doesn't bother me

but you may want to be aware that "hysteria" is on some people's no-no list of words. Again, matters not to me; just letting you know.

[Starboard Tack]

68. LOL. I know, I even thought that when I posted it, but it matters not to me, either

But let me make it clear, here and now, for all and sundry, that by using the word hysteria, I am in no way implying ..... oh, shit, I can already hear the hoof beats.
Seriously, though, I couldn't come up with a better word. Do you have any suggestions?

[Goblinmonger]

69. Nope. I have nothing.

It just stuck out to me. Have a good night.

[Goblinmonger]

25. You seem to have a lot of knowledge of the going on of MIRT

You have someone you know on the team?

[Starboard Tack]

42. Several!

[laconicsax]

36. Wow.

First, I never made any attempt to connect pedophilia to homosexuality. That was you. More than one person called you on it too.

Second, what subterfuge did I fall for? He made an observation that's been made several times by long-term DUers. I first made that same observation a few years ago and was told by more-seasoned regulars of the then-R/T forum that I wasn't the only one who had noticed it. There are posters

Third, how do you know that citycyde was MarkCharles. His transparency page doesn't say and I didn't see your name on the MIR team roster when it was last posted. This is the second time (to my memory) that you have detailed knowledge of who the recently departed was. The first time was with information about his IP address which (at least on DU2) was part of the confidential information that mods had access to. What is your source for this information and how did you get it so quickly after the PPR happened?

[2ndAmForComputers]

72. This naked, nasty personal attack was left alone 3-3.

Each of those three who voted leave alone are major league assholes. Yes, if you're reading this, I mean YOU. Asshole.

Well, at least I guess this waste of bandwidth can be blocked from ever again posting in this forum by the hosts. Am I correct?

[Starboard Tack]

75. How could they block him if they don't know who he is?

Only the Admins have access to IP addresses. Hopefully, the hosts or someone will spot him early, but he has proven to be quite slick in the past.
Right now, I think the hosts are too busy working on how to block me without too big a stink.

[laconicsax]

78. You think wrong.

We're not at all busy working on how to block you. What's taking up most of out time when it comes to this group is responding to PM's from people who see you as only here to disrupt. Believe me, if we thought it was time for you to go, you'd already be gone.

[2ndAmForComputers]

79. Wait, what, you think it isn't?

I think you're awesome, man, I really do, but don't you think you could turn down your kumbaya-o-stat just a little bit?

[laconicsax]

80. We're trying out a new system.

Starboard Tack has been PM'd and informed of what the situation is and what may result from his future choices.

[Goblinmonger]

82. I think I'm going to bookmark this thread

because I'm pretty sure this is the one-and-only time ever that laconicsax, EvolveOrConvolve, and I have ever been described with the word "kumbaya."

[laconicsax]

87. We can try to make it ours.

In all future host posts for the group we sign everything "The Kumbaya Collective"

[EvolveOrConvolve]

88. or the Kumbaya Triumvirate

You know, kinda like the unholy trinity?

[kdmorris]

89. That is an AWESOME name for a band

You should patent it

[laconicsax]

90. I like it!

[WhollyHeretic]

9. I'd really like to know why you post in this group with your support of the vile attack on DU

atheists in the religion forum. I personally don't think this is the place for those who do nothing but attack atheists even if you claim to be one.

[Starboard Tack]

12. Why do I post here? Are you fucking serious?

I don't attack atheists and I don't attack theists either. I attack assholes and intolerants of any persuasion. I don't like it that a group I belong to has been infiltrated by a handful of intolerants, possibly trolls, who want to disrupt and attack fellow DUers because of their religious beliefs. That is not what DU is about and it is not what this group should be about. Read the SOP. Does it say anything about our purpose being to mock, ridicule and denigrate other DUers because of their faith? If you think so, then it is you who are in the wrong place.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

13. I notice that you didn't attack Bluenorthwest for a pretty nasty post

I think you're not being entirely honest when you say that you "attack assholes and intolerants of any persuasion". Exhibit A.

How come it's only atheists that you attack and believers that you defend? If you think what Bluenorthwest posted wasn't nasty, then it's YOU who is probably in the wrong place.

[Starboard Tack]

17. Look, I don't know Bluenorthwest from Adam

Why do I attack atheists? I don't, unless they behave like assholes. They are my people and I don't like it when "my people" behave like assholes. We need to keep ourselves to a higher standard, imo. We need to show Xians that we are capable of humility and tolerance and goodness toward our fellow humans without the blessing of "our lord", but out of the goodness of our natural hearts. I fight this fight in the real world. I have many theist friends who love to point out the intolerance shown by atheists towards anyone of faith. They point right here to DU. Some of my theist and atheist friends are members. How do you think I feel when I have to defend some of the ugly shit that gets posted here? I tell them that those posters do not represent the average atheist, some are just shit stirring trolls like MarkCharles, some are very damaged and don't know any better and some are just assholes. Point is, I'm out there fighting and getting fucked over by people who claim to hold the same beliefs, or lack thereof.
But, if you think I'm in the wrong place, feel free to send me into exile. It's your call.

[rexcat]

31. Nice to see that you admit to attacking atheists!

I am going to assume that you think most of us as assholes since you have gone after most of us!

And for the rest of your post - trivial.

[Starboard Tack]

37. Not most, but feel free to include yourself if the shoe fits.

I don't attack atheists because they are atheists, or Xians because they are Xians. I attack bullies and the cowards who egg them on. When I see bullies in a group I belong to, I stand up to them, because they do not represent me. If you want to be one of those bullies, or support them, I will stand up to you too.

[rexcat]

39. You seem to be use "bullies"and "cowards"...

freely without little thought or reason. This is an over generalization on your part. If you are going to call people cowards or bullies back up your accusationsm or STFU.

Do not call me a bully unless you can back it up. It is not appreciated and it will not be tolerated. Your paranoia is getting a little old.

I had nothing to do with JFK or the sinking of the Titanic.

[Starboard Tack]

44. Thanks for proving my point!

[rexcat]

53. I did not prove your point...

seems like someone can't handle disagreement very well. I would say projection on your part which maybe something to do with what you do or did for a livelihood or it could just be your natural passive aggresive nature.

If you think that I am bullying you then by all means alert the post. Man up!

[Starboard Tack]

55. I think it's better not to hide your posts.

Makes it much easier when you help demonstrate my points for me. Thanks again.

[rexcat]

56. I have never had a post hidden...

unlike some people in this forum. On the other hand I alerted my post since you think I am a bully and coward and the post was not hidden.

Someone did alert a recent post of yours but the jury decided not to hide it by a 4-2 vote:
At Tue Jun 19, 2012, 12:58 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I am not speaking of specific posts and do not have the time to do your homework for you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=32505

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

No comments added by alerter

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 19, 2012, 01:05 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: After reading this post "paranoia" comes to mind. This person makes a lot of sweeping allegations without regard to reality. I hope this person seeks professional help.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Enough!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: "Some people can't handle the truth."
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Starboard Tack]

58. That's because you are so perfect.

I don't want any of your posts hidden. They are enlightening. Not as enlightening as mine, but enlightening, nevertheless.

[rexcat]

59. We will just have to agree to disagree.

on edit: I can be a douche but that is usually in response to someone else’s doucheness towards me.

I am far from perfect and have always been able to admit it. When wrong I am usually first in line to admit it unlike some people in this forum.

[Starboard Tack]

61. OK. Fair enough. Respect.

[WhollyHeretic]

14. Dropping f-bombs and making unfounded nasty accusations above. You are a class act all the way.

I don't think I've ever seen you do anything here but attack or attempt to lecture atheists so yes I do wonder what you're doing here. The accusations that the regulars here are trolls is also a nice classy touch.

[Starboard Tack]

21. Thank you!

Let me ask you a question? Do you go to RW websites and lecture them? I don't. I'm interested in people who are supposedly on the same side as I am. When I see them doing shit that leads me to believe otherwise, I challenge them. When they claim to represent what I represent, but behave in an ugly brutish way, I challenge them. That's how I roll. I don't pander to trolls. How about you?

[laconicsax]

48. You never challenged citysyde. You just showed up to say that he used to be MarkCharles.

[Starboard Tack]

50. And SamG. Remember him?

He was gone before I had a chance to challenge him. Trust me, I would have, had I seen him.

[laconicsax]

52. Vaguely.

I vaguely remember SamG, but only because he irritated me and I know a Sam G. in real life.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

11. Are you saying that Citycide was a sock puppet for Mark Charles?

If so, how the hell would you know that?

[Starboard Tack]

15. Well, he keeps popping up, doesn't he? How do you not see it?

I used to be a detective in real life, maybe some things never go away. On the other hand, I might fall flat on my face and be dead wrong, but I doubt it.
Actually, I find it all quite amusing, especially as I have been accused of all kinds of things, including being a sock puppet for our dear friend "rug", not to mention the latest smear campaign directed against me by our chief inquisitor, in her attempt to label me as some kind of homophobe. But this guy just keeps popping his ugly head up and sucking people in and even gets support from a host after his
Nice job skipper!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

18. Who is the chief inquisitor, and how is "she" directing a smear campaign against you?

I want to know, seriously, how you get inside information from the MIRT. Or is it just a lucky guess?

[Goblinmonger]

26. Way to not answer the question

about how you know such much about MIRT.

And I have never read anything from anyone who said you were a sockpuppet of rug.

[Starboard Tack]

28. I never mentioned MIRT. What does MIRT have to do with anything?

And obviously you haven't read all the posts accusing me of various crimes. Let me be clear, once and for all, I had nothing to do with JFK or the sinking of the Titanic.

[Goblinmonger]

30. Who else, other than MIRT, has knowledge about

the multiple personalities of Mark Charles and so quickly, too. They get that information through IP addresses among other things. You seem to have knowledge much more quickly than anyone else who isn't on MIRT. So, who do you know on MIRT?

I never said that there weren't accusations. I said I never read anything saying you were rug's sock puppet. Maybe I missed that one.

[rexcat]

40. You won't get a response...

he does not respond to the truth in any meaningful way.

[Starboard Tack]

41. I didn't claim knowledge. It is so obviously him.

You can take my word for it or not. I don't care. Who do I know on MIRT? I know four members on MIRT, how many do you know?

[laconicsax]

46. Why didn't you call him out as a sockpuppet for MarkCharles until AFTER he was blocked.

I just did a quick review of the few dozen posts he made in his week here and you didn't reply to him a single time, so tell me, when did you know? Before or after Skinner banned him?

[Starboard Tack]

49. I was engaged in real life activities

and didn't notice him until this morning and he was banned. I then looked at some of his posts and it seemed pretty clear that our old friend was back. I have no confirmation from anyone on MIRT that he was, in fact, MarkCharles. What do you think? We might want to keep an eye out for him next time, just in case. If I spot him, you'll be the first to know. And, BTW, I don't loathe you. I'm sure you are a wonderful person IRL. We are all on the same side, after all.

[rexcat]

34. You have mentioned MIRT...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12307702#post11

[mr blur]

54. I notice that this thread has 666 views -

one of us must be the anti-Jebus.

[rexcat]

57. I would be glad to nominate someone for that...

but I don't think they would take it as a compliment and I would hate to be labeled a bully and a coward. Oops, I think I have already been labeled a coward and a bully!

[Kennah]

70. A Sign Posted Kept Me Away From The Religious Forum

It read "You must be at least THIS mature to ride this ride."

I wasn't.

[mr blur]

71. Few are.

Otherwise it wouldn't exist.

[daaron]

77. Notice to DUers.

Many of you on this thread are in violation of Rule #14 of the Internet, which is starting to make DU suck moar.

If everyone just applied Rule #14, "Don't feed the trolls - it means they win," then DU forums wouldn't have as many trolls. It's not that hard. See the "reply" button at the bottom of this post? Pretend I'm a troll. Now... DON'T PUSH THAT BUTTON!!

[Goblinmonger]

83. DOH!

Damnit.

[kdmorris]

84. I didn't see a reply button...

only a "Reply to this Post"...

Oh, maybe that was the one you meant. DAMMIT!!!

[daaron]

85. Oh shit. You're right!!

WTF?!?! NOW WHAT?

[kdmorris]

86. I DON'T KNOW, MAN!!!!!

You've done it now... we are doomed..... AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[EvolveOrConvolve]

91. Uh oh, daaron broke the internet

[Kennah]

92. Aw dang

Does that make me Adam and you the snake?