2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI'm having trouble understanding a DU Narrative related to the primaries/General Election ...
We find the republicans, in general, and trump, in particular, attacking HRC, and virtually ignoring Sanders, except to support him against HRC, and the sporadic "he's a socialist" comments.
We find trump, and republican Joe Scarborough and a few Democrats (on the Morning Joe Show) calling for Biden to get into the race (note: when Biden was in consideration, he polled higher than Sanders; but, lower than HRC).
And the prevailing DU narrative is: republican activity is evidence that republicans (trump) are afraid of Sanders in the General election (i.e., would rather face HRC than Sanders in the General Election).
How does that work?
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)
draa
(975 posts)
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Something to do with reversing the axis of a framitz so that the main geegaw exerts counter-rotaional force on the axillary widget.
It's Political Science, so I defer to the experts.
JudyM
(29,251 posts)
Mike Nelson
(9,960 posts)...Du-ers want Sanders to win, the last paragraph makes sense. Saying most Republicans fear Sanders would defeat them in the general election promotes Sanders. Actually, I believe they see Sanders as easier to defeat - by simply portraying him as a Socialist. That may or not be so, but that's my impression.
FSogol
(45,491 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And have said as much ... though, I think they will throw more shade than just the socialist thing ... they will shout tax increases from the roof tops, and it will reach deeper than just the rich ... they will point to the increase in the payroll tax that will affect ALL workers, reinforcing what people already perceive of socialists/socialism. Of course, the republicans won't mention that it is expected to be a net positive for workers, after the fall in healthcare costs; but, the damage will be done.
And, I can think of several other areas where Sanders is vulnerable with respect to the working class and republicans that republicans will no doubt exploit.
I don't see their fear ... I see them working the refs.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Because it wasn't JUST a Soviet Flag in his office.
His supposed favoribility is a chimera conjured from the void of Republican attacks.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)If Bernie takes the lead, they will begin attacking him as well.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)They do not want her fundraising for months while they continue the primary battle. Of course, this backfired spectacularly in '08.
Gothmog
(145,344 posts)
brush
(53,794 posts)They created anti-socialist fear back then.
I also find it interesting that the repugs seem to have prepared films, much like the newsreels in the '30s against Sinclair, against both Hillary and Biden to do the same thing.
The "Thirteen Hours" anti-Hillary film has just been released and it's no coincidence that the timing of said release is just before the Iowa caucus.
If Joe Biden finally gets pulled into the race count on the "Anita Hill" documentary being re-released on TV with much fanfare to damage him.
IMO, that documentary factored into Biden not running as it highlights his ignoble role in the Clarence Thomas hearings.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,015 posts)
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)but many, many of your fellow Sanders supporters pretend his favorability would last a day longer than Republican attack machine.
cali
(114,904 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Just like Obama.
Remember back in 2008, I am sure you do, Hillary was far worse than McCain or Romney were. And she lost. And Obama won.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)They know what brings in the cash, it's tried and tested like how any fund raiser works.
Secretary Clinton is a money maker for the Republicans, those that aren't scared of the Clintons policies, just don't care for them personally.
Attacking Sanders means reminding their base that the race is about more than personalities, and the perceptions regarding the ethics of the Clintons and Democrats in general. It makes them wonder about class warfare, and maybe remember that that Sanders is on their side in regards that.
A guy like Karl Rove can still raise tons of money, after wasting megatons of it trying to defame President Obama and prop up Romney, because he knows how to push the buttons of Republican donors.
Invoke Clinton - profit.
Sanders just gets shrugs, and maybe a condescending smile. Can't whip up the hate, or the donations, by talking about him.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)invoking the Clinton name IS a money-maker for republicans; but, to believe your proposition, one would also have to believe that rove (and trump) are more interested in making money, than winning the White house ... where MORE money can be made.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Rove would like to be a barker in a Trump carnival but he'll make money under any scenario. Clinton as President means non-stop "This is it!" fund raising.
Trump lives in Trump world, wherever he is, there it is. How much money can Trump make as President? What ventures can he sell to investors after he isn't a candidate?
Planet 9 needs hotels.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)1) Sanders should win, he's the better candidate
2) Hillary should win, she's the better candidate
3) They're both good candidates, I wanna get to the general election
4) I can't friggin' wait for the dern primaries to be over so I don't have to wade through all this crap on DU anymore.
(edited for PG-13, readers may substitute their own color)
I'm not sure which one is the dominate one.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Scarborough says he's told Trump he would have an easier path to victory if he gets to keep positioning himself against the establishment - first Bush, then Clinton. Ann Coulter has been quoted saying Bernie would be the tougher opponent for Republicans between Sanders and Clinton. One could argue they are trying to trick us into nominating Bernie as an easier opponent I suppose, but I never trust what are usually too cleaver for itself attempts at reverse spin arguments. I think the simple answer is that Republicans always assumed they would be running against Hillary, so they have been trying to take her down. Plus being anti Hillary plays well to Republican base primary voters, so it is an easy way to get applause and score points with them to attack Clinton. They are in a competition among themselves at this point.
By the way, I disagree with you on Biden - I think most polls still showed Sanders outperforming Biden before Biden ruled out running, even with his name recognition and publicity advantages. It did get close, but talking heads back then covered Biden's potential run much more than they did Sander's actual run.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Eight dimensional chess or something.
or in the alternative some ideas are so bizarre that only an intellectual or somebody who fancies one can believe.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Not 7%, 7. And six of us are on DU...
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)That's pretty funny.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)they will let Bernie have their full blast before the General Elections. It looks like they're
focusing their energies on one opponent at a time.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the republican activities seem to run counter to the DU Narrative.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)I suppose it will cause them more problems to change targets -- now that Super Tuesday
is just around the corner.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)How can the republican (trump) attacks on HRC, while virtually ignoring Sanders (except for when they are supporting him), be seen as evidence that republicans (trump) are/is afraid to face Sanders in the general election?
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)tackle the easier problem/issue first then deal with the larger/harder issue next. Gaining momentum/time in the process.
Kind of like taking a test. Knock out the easy stuff first and save the hard questions for last
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(1st round-Primaries, 2nd round-General election) you hope to draw your toughest competition early ... that way you expend your resources (energy level, stamina) hoping that your opponent will be tapped out for the championship round. Or, another way of putting it, you root for the weaker opponent to beat up the stronger opponent, hoping that the stronger opponent will be tapped out for the championship round ... and/or hoping that the weaker opponent knocks out your tougher opponent, which bodes well for you in the championship round, as it will require fewer resources.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)element and the hope that the opponent will make mistakes on their own while you (hopefully) get bigger and harder to beat in the process.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)republicans don't ignore any anti-Mrs. Clinton 'help' the Sanders side can give them. Their media has floated a few anti-sanders RW points but their main focus is on Mrs. Clinton, they've had 10 years to fine tune that pogrom.
If by some chance RW needs to crush down Sanders republicans will ramp-up those floaters.
A bitter, divided D party is very helpful to republicans in the general election. I so wish Mrs. Clinton & Senator Sanders would team-up. That Team would devastate the republican party. All their general election plans would be ruined.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
Avalux
(35,015 posts)They are coming apart at the seams, attacking each other and trying to figure out what to do with Trump. He has his own interests, and says whatever he wants, whether or not it's GOP sanctioned.
I think trying to corral all of this and make sense of it is futile, and the DU narrative you speak of is just a theory among many as to why the GOP, which now includes Trump, behaves they way they do.
In my mind, the most obvious rationale is that they don't take Sanders seriously, much as Hillary has done. She's finding out that was a mistake.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and his campaign is flat out telling the party that he doesn't need their help.
Nay
(12,051 posts)could be made that they should be. After all, with HRC, they can drag out all the lies and innuendos that they have used against her for 30 years. It's gotten so bad that anyone who ever called themselves Republican does a knee-jerk rejection of her automatically. It's stupid, but it's how years of propaganda pay off.
Sanders is different in that they really have very little to slam him with except the 'socialism' label. The reason they are ignoring him right now is that TPTB don't want those socialist ideas to get out into national debates, because with the undecideds and nominal Republicans, a lot of Bernie's proposals and ideas are going to sound damned good.
There are people in both parties that don't want Sanders' ideas to even be out there for consideration. They are trying to direct the narrative so that we stick with the same old stuff.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)or, if so, not in a way that will be helpful.
Nay
(12,051 posts)Sanders' ideas out there, just by default. They don't want to engage with him at all. Sanders is not afraid of them, is not conciliatory to them to any degree, and will kill them in any debate. Sanders has nothing to lose, unlike so many other Democrats who, over many years, have treated crazy Republicans as 'worthy' opponents. Sanders is a total wild card. In some atavistic way, I think the Republican leadership realizes that.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)The "narrative" in terms of "elect-ability" is subject to many variables. In other words there is no coherent narrative at the moment. No sure things. For anybody. We're all bumping around in the dark.....and trying to project out own vision onto the country as a whole.
The GOP is going a much bigger and more convoluted identity crisis than we are. Their current battles for the "soul of the party" make ours look like a garden dance.
And the ferment in both parties reflects ferment in the nation. We are a frustrated angry country, but we don't know what to do about it. Nor what direction to go. And the agendas of anger vary, and may be contradictory. -- often an individual may be very paradoxical and confused.
Major dramatic change? And of so, what kind? More subtle change? Give up and forget about it and go to the ball game?
In such a climate, deciding which candidate is more "electable" is a complete gamble for all candidates and both parties. Much more so than usual.
And the strengths of one party's nominee will depend on who the other party's nominee is. And for the Dems that opposition that could ultimately be anything from a Trump to Bush.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)It's the same reason that single thing Hillary does indicates that she's in "Panic" or "Meltdown" mode.
Such a narrative is necessary to make yourself believe Bernie is going to win. It's certainly preferable to pondering how he wins the south or the rust belt.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
tularetom
(23,664 posts)You know damn good and well what's going on here and you really should stop pretending you don't. The republicans have had 25 years to hate Hillary Clinton and they've actually gotten pretty good at it. They came into this election cycle all geared up to trash her, they didn't expect to have another candidate to hate on.
Even now, they don't expect Sanders to be the candidate and until they are certain he will be, they aren't going to make more than a token effort to discredit him. And I'm sad to say, in spite of how well Sanders is currently doing, they re probably correct. Clinton has too much of the establishment and too much money for him to beat her out.
But I will tell you this. The republicans will tear her to pieces in the general election. She simply doesn't generate any passion among members of her own party, the motivation to vote for her is minimal. Many democrats are just tired of defending the Clintons. On the other hand, the hatred for her on the other side is so strong, people will go to any length to vote against her.
Of course they would try to do the same thing against Sanders, should he be the nominee. But it won't be as effective because they haven't had decades of practice hating him.
It isn't some Machiavellian plot by Rove or anybody else to knock Clinton off because they think she'd be harder to defeat in the general election. They want to run against her. Trashing her is what they live for and they are salivating at the chance to finally get rid of her.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"
trying to) understanding my 'feigned disingenuousness'."
Lose the filter and try again. It might improve your comprehension.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)On second thought, maybe it isn't "feigned".
You really are that naive? You said it, I didn't.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)though I will admit a near complete ignorance when it comes to the twisted logic displayed here ... which explains my question.
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Babel_17
(5,400 posts)I doubt as many would want to participate in this thread if you'd copped to that viewpoint.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Response to Babel_17 (Reply #50)
Babel_17 This message was self-deleted by its author.
RichVRichV
(885 posts)The attacks on Clinton have nothing to do with who the Republicans think is the better general opponent. They're too busy trying to bludgeon each other and win their own primary at this point. With Republicans it's monkey see, monkey do. What works for one will be emulated by all and they'll try to top each other. That makes it very hard for them to change course on what they're doing.
They have spent years demonizing Hillary and they have their base frothing at the mouth to hate her (justified or not). They're going to play that card, trying to one up each other, because it's their best one. Bernie barely registers with their base, so there's little point attacking him at this time.
As to why they might be more scared of running against Bernie than Hillary. Well besides the fact that Bernie brings a populous message that could strip swing voters away from them, they also have to start from scratch on attacking him. With Hillary they've already built up a hatred for her among a wide audience. With Bernie they're back to square one. Further complicating it is the fact that Bernie has had a relatively unscathed primary to get his message out through grassroots methods to the swing voters without being attacked. This will make the Republican's job of turning people against Bernie that much harder, since people are seeing the good of him before the attacks come. Hillary doesn't have that luxury. If she's going to win over the independents she has to counter the long driven narrative already put in place by the Republicans.
With the Republicans it's as much about the narrative they've built as who the candidates are.
Response to RichVRichV (Reply #62)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)he is, clearly, thinking of the General Election. His pivot was clear.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)That's how it works. The Republicans know Clinton will be the nominee, so they're not wasting time with Sanders.
As for the "prevailing DU narrative", it sounds more like "OP's straw man of the day"
Gothmog
(145,344 posts)Why is Karl Rove running an ad making this same claim? http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-karl-rove-attack
The Hillary Clinton campaign on Tuesday said that recent attacks from conservatives show that Republicans are hoping Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) will win the Democratic nomination because they believe he would be easier to beat in the general election.
In a Tuesday evening statement, the Clinton campaign's communications director, Jennifer Palmieri, mentioned an ad from the Rove-aligned super PAC American Crossroads, which accused Clinton of being in Wall Street's pocket. Palmieri said the ad suggests that Republicans want to face Sanders in the general election.
"While Senator Sanders tries to make a case on electability based on meaningless polls, Republicans and their super PACs have made clear the candidate they’re actually afraid to face. The Sanders argument falls apart when the GOP spokesman is trying to help him and the Republicans run ads trying to stop Hillary Clinton in the primary," she said in the statement.
Clearly Karl Rove wants the weaker candidate to be the nominee
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)Amazingly after he pissed away many millions, and swore till the polls close that Romney had won, he still gets seen as relevant and able to churn more millions while taking his cut.
Can't see organizing our party in a reactionary manner to Rove, but other people's mileage may vary.
randome
(34,845 posts)Why anyone sees him as anything other than a buffoon and a has-been is beyond me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)When they're not ducking under the desks hiding from their own party grassroots, the GOP brain-trust assumes Clinton will win, and they already have the pre-fab campaign attacks laid out.
They don't bother with Bernie because they assume he won't win. And Cilton is a familiar and tempting target.
If Bernie won, they'd surely drag out the crazy commie stuff against him. But won't be any more or less effective than the rich crazy commie stuff they'll throw at Clinton.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)fresh (but by no means original) talking points from the Hillary campaign. 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but if they match what I say/have said, it's because they are obvious points.
But with respect to this OP ... Us, O'Malley supporters, being the intellectual curious folks that we are, seek to understand the thinking of others ... when that thinking makes NO DAMNED SENSE.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)why do you continue to question mine ... beyond the fact that I am not a Bernie fan ... which in your Manichaean world makes me a HRC supporter.
{Thanks for the cool word, DSB}
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Because you are a non-stop anti Bernie attack dog. As an "O'Malley supporter", you'd think your critique would include the frontrunner.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Manichaean induced failure in logic.
Criticizing/attacking "A" is NOT supporting "B" except, maybe, on the internet.
I support O'Malley's candidacy (i.e., talk up O'Malley's platform and accomplishments, in real life, AND oppose Bernie's campaign. But take heart ... as a loyal Democrat, I do not talk against Bernie, in real life - I have to go back to them, should by some miracle, he gain the nomination.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)what you think I know about where I stand!
To be clear ... I am about a Democrat in the White house ... So, I am Pro-O"malley's candidacy, because of his platform and record of accomplishment ... Anti-Bernie's candidacy, because of his lopsided attention to his platform and electability concerns ... and HRC candidacy neutral, because of her platform and accomplishments, but am concerned with her baggage..
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Gothmog
(145,344 posts)This may explain why the GOP is supporting Sanders http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/john-kasich-bernie-sanders_us_56985d45e4b0b4eb759df8ed?cps=gravity_5055_-2361549830416597316&kvcommref=mostpopular
"We're going to win every state if Bernie Sanders is the nominee," Ohio Gov. John Kasich said to laughter from the audience. "That's not even an issue. And I know Bernie. And I can promise you he won't be president of the United States."
The GOP wants Sanders to be the nominee
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)