A daughter of the most right wing family we know came over and...

[tecelote]

This women comes from a family that "has a loaded rifle in every room" and whose house is full of Tea Party / Confederate memorabilia.

She came over with her young daughter and said... "Please don't tell our parents but my brothers and I plan to vote for Bernie".

She wishes he was an Independent so she doesn't have to vote for a Democrat. But, she is.

You know why?

Her daughter.

Shes's afraid and wants her daughter to grow up in a better world than we have.

She said... there is only one person looking out for us in this election.

This is why Bernie will win.

Because we all want a better America.

[Jenny_92808]

1. Bernie's message

is reaching people across the political spectrum.

[synergie]

63. This is very true, there are a lot of people cheering Bernie on, qutie a lot of Republicans.

Take a bit of care before you assume that whoever is saying whatever that sounds nice to you is an actual supporter. I've finally seen a few of these supposed "hillary supporters" who have been all evil, on FB, where their profile shows they're actually right wingers. Ammophiles and racist Obama meme likes and shares and all.

[angrychair]

2. Think its appropriate

To post a link to one of my OPs from yesterday as it speaks to the change we All see coming:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511046578

[SCantiGOP]

3. Good Lord

Anecdotal stories of individual voters don't mean shit about how this election will work out.
How is this neighbor going to feel if the post-election analysis says that it was the Sanders campaign that was responsible for President Trump?

[tecelote]

4. Good Lord.

Scare tactics are all you have?

[1monster]

14. Too many people are unable to feel the ground swell of change and are

mystified.

Some of us, though, feel

[Snotcicles]

7. Why would Sanders have less of a chance of winning the general?

Unless you and the others don't plan to vote for him.

[Orrex]

37. No, the "my candidate or fuck the whole thing" slogan belongs to Sanders' supporters

Clinton's supporters, recognizing what's at stake, will vote for the Democrat who's on the ballot in Nov 2016. I don't believe I've heard more than one or two exceptions to this.

[markpkessinger]

47. Here's the thing about that . . .

. . . In the end, should Hillary be the nominee, most Sanders supporters (including me) will wind up voting for her in the general election. But the reasons many of us are reluctant to come out and say that during the primary season are (1) this is still the primary season, and we are still pulling for the candidate of our choice, thus (2) it is premature to ask us for advance pledges of support; and (3) if we were to telegraph to the Clinton campaign some advance pledge of support should she become the nominee, that would effectively neuter any ability of the Sanders constituency to keep up the leftward pressure against Hillary.

[Orrex]

48. Then it would be nice...

if Sanders' supports would stop claiming that Clinton's supporters won't vote for him.

1. It's directly contrary to all evidence available (aside from those very few I mentioned)

2. It contradicts your reasons 1 and 2 with an option on 3.

[Snotcicles]

55. I've always said I would vote for her. As a last resort to keeping a Republican of White House. nt

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

90. Take this to the bank, as a Sanders supporter

I will never vote for anyone in that sorry lot of Republicans running, in fact I have a hard time believing their not all in some bad B rated movie.

[CSStrowbridge]

56. Agreed.

I've never heard a Hillary Clinton support say they would vote GOP, third party, or not at all if Bernie Sanders was nominated.

I've encountered far too many Bernie Sanders supports would have said they will do just that is Hillary Clinton wins.

Looking at the numbers, the only way the Democrats don't win in November is if too many Bernie Sanders fans decide to sit out this election, because their candidate didn't overcome all of the negative polling data to win. They've convinced themselves Bernie is guaranteed the win, so a loss must have meant Hillary Clinton stole the election.

[tecelote]

58. Do you have a link...

...to any of us saying we would not vote for Hillary if she wins the primary?

Or, are you just saying it?

[CSStrowbridge]

59. It was a YouTube comment.

It was a YouTube comment. I have no clue how to link to a YouTube comment. I don't even think it is possible.

[tecelote]

60. Well...

You said "I've encountered far too many Bernie Sanders supports would have said they will do just that is Hillary Clinton wins."

I do understand that one is far too many. I agree.

[CSStrowbridge]

64. It's not just one...

It's not just one.

But there's one I'm talking to right now. I could post his name and you could look him up yourself, but that seems like a prick move.

[randys1]

76. This for starters

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511055647

and this person isnt the only one here

Without naming names as I dont know them, there are Karl Rove plants here at DU who are sowing discord as well as actual alleged liberals who will not vote for HIllary no matter what, together they form a very harmful situation.

[NaturalHigh]

100. "there are Karl Rove plants here at DU who are sowing discord"

Dude you're killing me here. You actually believe that? Karl Rove must be some really powerful boogeyman!

[LiberalLovinLug]

80. I think close to 100% of Bernie supporters will vote for Hillary if she actually wins the primary

You have to look no further than the election for the second term of Obama. He was so disappointing to so many progressive voices. He told us to hold his feet to the fire, that it was OUR hope and change he was talking about, but then he turned his back, hired "folks" like Rahm who scolded the "liberal retards" for making their voices heard.

But Democrats still came out and gave Obama a comfortable margin of victory. I am sure they will do the same with Hillary. That is actually a sad aspect as Hillary knows she doesn't have to back off her allegiance to Wall Street one tiny step. But we would rather have the corrupt, moneyed, status quo than risk diving into the unknown of just how far right the Koch brothers and their ilk can actually sink the nation. We will all just sigh, and bide our time yet again for the next Bernie, the next Whatever-Obama-was-pretending-to-be.

[AirmensMom]

67. Well, then, count to three now.

I can't stand Hillary, but will vote for her if she is our candidate. I have never pulled a lever for a Republican and never will. We would do well to stick together if we want to win.

[Orrex]

69. I have stated many times, and will state again,

that I will happily support Sanders and will vote for him if he's on the ballot. I don't think that it's likely, but outside of a guaranteed blue state, only an idiot would withhold their vote simply because Clinton isn't Sanders enough.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

91. Agreed. n/t

[sorechasm]

68. Isn't that Gov. Ed Rendell's (former chairman of the DNC) position?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511052073

If Hillary doesn't win, he's prepared to vote against the Democratic Party.

Most Bernie supporters will vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter who that is.

[Orrex]

70. Presumably, if Bloomberg declares himself a Democrat, all will be hunky dory

After all, that's what Sanders did, and none of his supporters batted an eye.

Regardless, if Rendell votes against the Democratic nominee, then he's an asshole.

[sorechasm]

71. Bloomberg never said he would switch to being a democrat. He would run as an independent and

the former Chair of the DNC said he would consider supporting him.

(Reuters) - Michael Bloomberg, the billionaire former mayor of New York City, has told his aides to draw up plans for an independent campaign for the U.S. presidency, according to a source familiar with the situation.

Meanwhile, the current DNC Chair (DWS) has refused to support some progressive Democratic candidates in certain election locations. A lack of support that in effect helped Republicans

In fact, if anything, Wasserman Schultz and other Democratic leaders have consistently sent mixed signals to the very voters she decries as being complacent. Under the watch of former Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chair Steve Israel and Wasserman Schultz at the DNC, the Democratic party has gone out of its way to support the campaigns of anti-choice Dems in numerous states and refused to support progressive candidates in others. In some notable cases, Wasserman Schultz refused to endorse and instead effectively supported Republicans over Democrats in critical races for her own personal gain, all the while raising money off of threats to Roe v. Wade and off the unrelenting campaign against reproductive rights waged by legislatures throughout the country.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2016/01/07/debbie-wasserman-schultz-blames-voters-failures-democratic-party/

Sanders supporters are comparatively much more democratic, most of whom will support the Democratic nominee.

[99th_Monkey]

82. Here's another "exception" for you

I would theoretically vote for Hillary, if she were to somehow win the Primary. I wouldn't
like it one bit, but on balance, she's marginally better than Trump or Cruz or Bloomberg.

[Orrex]

84. What I can't figure, and what nobody has ever explained to me, is this:

If Clinton is a true Republican's Republican, and if she's so hard to distinguish from Trump or Cruz or Bloomberg, then why have Republicans been attacking her for 20+ years?

You'd think that they'd love to see one of their own wolves in Democratic clothing swoop into the Whitehouse, since (to hear Sanders' supporters tell it) Clinton is Republican in all but name. Yet somehow this crafty candidate has tricked the GOP into hating her, despite the fact that she's apparently their best bet for pushing their nefarious Rightwing agenda through Congress.

Maybe I should ask Ralph Nader to explain it to me.

[99th_Monkey]

88. Ralph would probably give you an earful, but I can't speak for him

but short of that, what I will say is that it's a fair question.

Dennis Kucinich called the faux "differences" between 3rdWay Dems and
Republicans a "Punch & Judy Show" designed to foster the illusion that voters
still really have meaningful choices come election day. I think there's some
truth to this, but there's more to it than that, esp. with the Clintons.

In the particular case of the Clintons, there are obviously additional layers and
nuances. For example, Clintons are known for keeping an 'enemies list' rather
than letting bygones be bygones. When politicians (or anyone really) harbors
long-standing grudges and vendettas, it tends to backfire with exponential
blow-back. It also engenders an "us v. them" environment, which I think was
one of the less-favorable earmarks of Bill Clinton's presidency -- which admittedly
also had it's upsides and benefits, but still.

On the face of it, your question has some merit, and it did make me think before
responding, so thank you for that. Perhaps I'll give it some more thought, but
for now I'll leave it at that.

Hope you're having a great Sunday afternoon/evening.

[Arugula Latte]

105. I'll vote for her in the general if I have to. Hopefully Scalia will croak soon,

and I'd rather her pick his replacement than Trump or Cruz or Rubio.

[Enthusiast]

11. Anecdotal stories of individual voters reflect the tremendous enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders.

This enthusiasm is something that makes Hillary so very jealous. You can see it in her eyes and hear it in her voice. Her voice is taking on that characteristic squeal we heard before she lost in 2008. It's anxiety that you hear in her voice. Panic, you can hear it.


May you find healing.

[closeupready]

44. I love that.

Thanks for posting.

[7962]

12. Seeing that polls show Sanders beating Trump, why would you ask?

Any more than how is the neighbor going to feel if it was the Clinton campaign responsible for a Trump presidency?

[StandingInLeftField]

15. And here I thought I had you on ignore.

That's better.

[SCantiGOP]

19. This is the third time you have told me

that you have put me on Ignore. Please do so. (and remember not to answer this because you can't see it, right? )

[2pooped2pop]

22. we'll never know

unless Hillary gets the nom trump can't win

[humbled_opinion]

29. LOL your hypothisis is screwed up...

Clinton v Trump means Clinton will be called to account for her inability to defend women against her unfaithful spouse in addition she will be called to account for her above top secret emails and her idiotic decision to create a homebrew email server to handle her email from state..... not to mention how she now cannot possibly qualify for a security clearance and we all know you can't be president without one of those.....

so you see this neighbor will feel just fine because Bernie = NO BAGGAGE in the GE.... My hope is that the Democratic masses wake to this fact and where the rubber meet the road they vote appropriately....

[drm604]

30. Honestly, I can't see Trump beating either of them.

I don't understand your fear. Either of them is easily a better candidate than Trump, and I certainly will be voting for whichever one wins the primary.

[sulphurdunn]

40. You mean Clinton can't beat Trump

because Sanders opposes her for the democratic nomination? Also, how does someone who doesn't vote for Trump help elect him?

[Fawke Em]

43. Less of a chance of that with Bernie than with Corpo-Hill. eom

[bvf]

53. Already have it all figured out, do you? n/t

[marble falls]

57. When you tell that scaaaary story at night, do you shine a flashlight on...

face and make 'smores?

We will take the White House whether its with Hillary or Bernie. I'm voting for Bernie.

[cherokeeprogressive]

65. I refuse to accept that my vote for Bernie Sanders is by extension a vote for Trump.

[Maedhros]

81. You know, at some point the Demoratic rank-and-file has to stop cowering under its sheets.

"Sanders will be responsible for President Trump!" What a cowardly, ridiculous assumption based only upon the projection of one's own insecurity.

Maybe the Party should actually stand up for what it claims to believe in, and vote for it, instead of paying mealy-mouthed lip service to liberal ideals and then voting for Neoliberal governance.

[rhett o rick]

93. It means a lot, you just don't like to think that average people are getting into

the fray. They are coming out in droves to speak out against the corruption of our government that HRC supporters are trying to protect. Protect a culture of corruption highlighted by Citizens United that has brought us 50,000,000 living in poverty. Protect the profits of Goldman-Sachs that pays HRC in cash.

And those that think HRC has a better chance against Trump are either naive or in denial.

As WillyT so aptly put it: "It's simple"

"Nominate HRC, and watch the Repukes come out in droves...

And if it looks like the Establishment put its finger on the scale...

Watch all the energy, passion, and youthful exuberance of the Democrats drain away.

Nominate Bernie... and watch the Nation and the Establishment change...

Watch young, old, Democrats, Independents, and yes... many sane Republicans...

Change the world." http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511049464

It's simple one either supports HRC and the Wealthy Oligarchy or one supports Sanders and the lower 99%.

[Enthusiast]

5. Kicked and recommended!

[catbyte]

6. I'd like to think so, but the cynic in me just can't conceive of any way the powers that be

would ever allow that. I really hope I'm wrong. Sorry to be Debby Downer.

[tecelote]

10. It will never happen if we don't try.

History is not made by the cautious.

What if we fall short? Because we will.

But, by going for the dream, we will still be ahead of where we will be electing the status quo candidate.

"Yes we can" will get us farther than "No we can't".

[7962]

13. Right. Remember nobody could ever beat Ronda Rousey. Until Holly did. nt

[99th_Monkey]

83. What are the PTB going to do about it? Do we not still have a democracy?

You know...where each vote counts?

And if you don't even believe this, that the Oligarchs haven't already won and it's
totally hopeless, then why even bother?

[catbyte]

85. After the 2000, 2004, & 2014 voting shenanigans, I don't have any faith, but it doesn't

keep me from getting involved and fighting.

[99th_Monkey]

89. I actually agree about 2000, 2004, & 2014 voting shenanigans ...

Obama only won because his margin was so overwhelming they couldn't fudge the
numbers enough to counter it.

And i don't think much has changed with hackable voting machines and all; which
actually is one of my biggest beefs with Obama, is that he's had 7 years to aggressively
salvage our electoral integrity, restore hand-countable paper ballots across the nation,
yet has done nothing that i know of.

And as you may have noticed, I'm still fighting too.

[Uncle Joe]

8. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for sharing, tecelote.

[busterbrown]

24. You said it..”Kicked"

Exactly what Holly did !!

[Awknid]

9. My niece named her daughter Reagan

She has right wing ties deep in her roots and hates taxes like the plague. But she too has decided to vote for Bernie because he is the only one who will make positive changes! I am holding my breath hoping she doesn't change her mind!

[Bonhomme Richard]

16. A Republican friend of mine told me that the other day. n/t

[tecelote]

21. What?

Chants? Native American stuff?

Peyote maybe? What's your excuse for this rant?

[draa]

23. I'm happy that comment above was hid.

No place for that crap on a Democratic forum.

[tecelote]

25. Yeah - that was odd.

BTW - I didn't alert the post.

[draa]

27. Me either but I got to vote on it.

Happy to get rid of it.

And it was odd. Not sure of the point but it was very offensive.

[Orrex]

38. I can't reply to the hidden post, so I'll ask here:

What the fuck was that bullshit?

Sorry you had to have that dumped on you.

[Enthusiast]

87. Is she talking about my post, number 11?

I don't get it.

[lobodons]

18. Democratic Nominee

I would hope for the sake of her daughter's future she would support whoever the Democratic Nominee is. If Dems do not win in 2016 SCOTUS will be 6-3 or 7-2 Scalia, Alito. Clarence Thomas ideology controlled for the next 30 years.

[hifiguy]

32. "We're selling some of you to the big banks and the rest of you

to big pharma for medical research, there will be War Forever Everywhere, and you'll be living in tents, but we've got the SCOTUS - yay!" is not an inspiring campaign slogan.

[Orrex]

39. As opposed to "I promise to give you everything you want"

"even though there's no chance in hell that I'll get any of it past Congress."

Which is better?

[hifiguy]

42. I have yet to encounter a Sanders supporter who thinks

he can wave a magic wand and make it all happen in the short-term. The country is on a disastrous course, has been for 35 years, and is headed for the rocks. Bernie is the only person I trust to start steering it in a better direction.

We all know it's not going to happen overnight. The damage is deep and it will take time to undo. But some don't even want to make the effort to try. And that is why I Stand With Bernie.

[Orrex]

46. Convince me that a doomed effort is worth trying

If Sanders takes the Whitehouse, I see another single-term Democrat holding that office. Remember what followed the last time that happened?

We all know it's not going to happen overnight. The damage is deep and it will take time to undo.

Really? Let's not forget the howls of disappointment when Obama managed to get the ACA through Congress. Hell, page through GD, and you'll see some of those howls even today. Yet many of us recognized that it was a significant step in the right direction, despite the endless cries from stalwart Democrats that it's a failure. Why should I believe that any of them would tolerate half-measures from President Sanders? Why would he get a pass where Obama hasn't gotten one?

Sanders' supporters insist that Clinton is a move in the wrong direction, but a Sanders presidency might very well result in great leap backwards, though admittedly through no fault of his own. My sense is that the legislative and corporate opposition to Sanders' ideas will be so strong that his Republican successor will enjoy a mandate to throw us further down the path of Reagan's nightmarish vision.

Of course, his supporters assure us that the goodwill of the electorate will gird President Sanders against any challengers, and that the voice of the people will sweep aside any Congressional obstacles. I would love for that to be true. It hasn't been true in my lifetime or yours, nor in the lifetime of anyone currently living, nor their parents or grandparents.

I simply don't believe that reality will permit Sanders to be the miraculous, transformative President that we are told he will be.

[hifiguy]

49. How is HRH going to do any better?

She doesn't energize voters, turns off many, will have no coattails and the Repigs hate her and have for years. There's a recipe for squat.

[lobodons]

50. Hillary's Coattails

Bernie is a stand up guy and Hillary will get her coattails from Bernie when he campaigns with her. The enthusiasm that he has created within his movement has been awesome and will hopefully energize the entire Democratic Party to GOTV in General. Not only will this help us maintain the White House, but retake the Senate and many House Seats!!

Same goes if Bernie is Nominated. Hopefully all of us Hillbots will campaign just as hard to get Bernie elected if he is the nominee. It will take a Village!! The entire Village!!

[Orrex]

54. Not so fast.

We're told many times daily about all the people who are afraid of Sanders. The GOP, establishment Democrats, Clinton, DWS, the DNC, the media, Wall Street, and on and on. Explain to me how Bernie Sanders, the terror of DC, will fare any better than Clinton?

And you can't argue that you haven't claimed that anyone is afraid of him, because whether you personally have or have not is irrelevant. It's the absolute favorite go-to mantra among Sanders' supporters, so someone must believe it.

I maintain that the GOP sees Sanders as no threat at all, which is why they've devoted no resources to stopping him. And if Republicans fear him so profoundly, then surely they'll do their damnedest to make sure that none of his terrifying agenda makes it through Congress. You can't have it both ways; either they're afraid of him, or they aren't. Which is it?


Further, how will Sanders the Independent (until he decided to call himself a Democrat for the sake of visibility and resources, of course) strengthen the overall Democratic position? Who will ride on his coattails? Which Democrats will he deign to help, when he's done nothing to help them before?

[Akamai]

52. Thom Hartmann regularly says the phrase: "Despair is not an option!" He says he learned that

from Bernie.

If people don't try the difficult things, nothing great will get done.

Because of Bernie's run, people are more aware than ever of: how the system is rigged, how rich corporations and individuals are buying elections, are aware of the need for a higher minimum wage and the huge inequality of wealth in this country, etc. And we are going to make big improvements on how we treat Climate Change, etc.

Bernie is inspirational, focused on the important things that have to be done, is not influenced by a luxurious life-style, is totally focused on the people of this country and of the world, etc. He has no ego at all in the game, as far as I can see.

He is a wonderful spokesperson for these critical issues.

Go, Bernie! But if he loses the primaries, then I sure as hell will vote for the winner of the Democratic primaries. This is too important an election to stay home and not vote!

[senz]

75. Great series of arguments in this thread, hifiguy.

So well said.

[Marty McGraw]

79. More chance of Hillary

Getting that kind of congress than Bernie.

That coat-tail excitement thingy, you know....

[rhett o rick]

94. Which is better? Fighting to insure that Goldman-Sachs continues to make big profits

or fighting for helping those 50 million Americans living in poverty.

The fact that it will be hard to help the disadvantaged in America doesn't mean we shouldn't try. HRC wants to continue the current culture of corruption in Wash DC.

[Orrex]

95. What, exactly, do you think Sanders could do to end that culture?

Please be specific, and please indicate how Sanders will get his revolutionary ideas through Congress.

[rhett o rick]

96. Sanders will have a hard time fighting the Oligarchy. H. Clinton will get along with

them fine, but to the detriment of the 99%. I guess you support the 1%.

[Orrex]

97. You didn't answer the question

Instead, you rolled out the kind of tired and ineffective attack that we commonly see from Sanders' less sophisticated cheerleaders.

Your post betrays a simplicity of thought, since you apparently envision no other options than "support Sanders wholeheartedly" and "support the 1%." It is entirely possible to respect Sanders' views and proposals, for instance, while also concluding that he's not the strongest overall candidate. I suspect that many people hold that opinion, in fact, since the world is more complex than the binary caricature that you seem to prefer. I see this in a lot of your posts; the false dichotomy is probably your favorite go-to fallacy.

Since you didn't answer the question, I'll ask it again:

What, exactly, do you think Sanders could do to end that culture (of corruption)?

Please be specific, and please indicate how Sanders will get his revolutionary ideas through Congress.

[rhett o rick]

98. Sanders will do a lot more than HRC will with regard to helping the 99%.

Clinton represents the corrupt DC culture that we are fighting, that all Democrats should be fighting, the culture that favors the wealthy and preys on the lower classes.

The fact that HRC agrees with the Republicans on most issues and therefore will be able to get things done (that the Republicans like) is why millions are enthused about Sen Sanders.

If you think the country is headed in the correct direction, support Clinton and the American Aristocracy.

Why would you support Goldman-Sachs over the middle and working classes? Do you envy the rich? Do you think they will help the 50 million living in poverty?

[Orrex]

99. Again, you didn't answer the question.

Since you still haven't answered the question, I'll ask it again:

What, exactly, do you think Sanders could do to end that culture (of corruption)?

Please be specific, and please indicate how Sanders will get his revolutionary ideas through Congress.

I await this answer, which I've now requested three times.

If you think the country is headed in the correct direction, support Clinton and the American Aristocracy.

That's another false dichotomy--you really do love those! You're pretending that the choice is purely between supporting the 99% or voting for Clinton. Do you really fail to see other possibilities? What accounts for this limited vision?

Here's the part that seems to baffle you, though in fairness, it seems to baffle a lot of Sanders' more vocal supporters: I think Sanders has some fantastic ideas, and I do believe that truly he has the bests interests of the 99% in mind. If he's on the ballot, I will happily support him and will certainly vote for him.

However, I don't think that he would be a strong candidate, and I don't think that he stands a great chance of winning in November. There is no evidence that he will do well against the GOP attack machine, and it's not clear that his style will play well in the Presidential debates. Even if he wins, I don't believe that he'll make much headway against a resistant Congress, and I don't believe that his coattails will sweep many Democratic candidates into office.

I expect that you'll now recite some litany of poll numbers, a review of Sanders' legendary appeal among millennials, or some stuff about how he's pulling in Republican and Independent voters. If he makes it to the general election, then I guess we'll see.

But here's the other thing that seems to baffle Sanders' more vocal supporters: if I'm wrong, then I will freely admit it. Since I'm not personally invested in either contender (I don't "feel" any candidate, thanks), I suffer no loss in owning up to my error. Can you say the same?

[rhett o rick]

110. That's a lot of fancy footwork to try to justify supporting the wealthy at the expense of the lower

classes. I say that in this class war there are only two sides, just like other wars. You claim there are other possibilities but don't say what they are. For 40 years your "other way" has dug a huge hole for the 99% and you want to continue digging.

Again, you are only trying to rationalize your support of the Oligarchy.

[Orrex]

112. You are simplistic, and you still haven't answered the question

You are desperate to see the issue as black and white, but that's simply not the case. You can therefore continue to live in that false model of the world, or you can recognize that reality is more complex than the caricature that you prefer.

What you deride as "fancy footwork" is simply an accurate description of fact: it is possible to share Sanders' views without thinking he's the best candidate. How can you not see this?

Again, you are only trying to rationalize your support of the Oligarchy.

That's 100% bullshit, and you're lying in an effort to hide the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[LondonReign2]

102. Are you expecting Hillary to get her ideas through Congress?

If one is going to criticize Bernie and assume he won't get his ideas through, presumably you think Hillary will fare better? If so, which ideas is she going to get Republicans to agree with her on and get passed?

[Orrex]

103. Sanders' supporters endlessly insist that she's a de facto Republican

If that's the case, then why have they been attacking relentlessly for 20+ years? And how can it be possible that she won't get her Republican ideas through Congress?

Sanders' supporters either need to address that contradiction, or else they need to admit that she's not a Republican.

[LondonReign2]

104. So let's try again since you didn't answer: Are you expecting Hillary to

get her ideas through Congress? If so, which ones do you think she'll get Republicans to pass?

[Orrex]

106. I'll answer once my question has been answered

I've asked it 3+ times in this thread alone, and I've asked it many times in the past few months.

No one has answered it.

Additionally, no one has explained why Clinton is so reviled by Republicans if she's a Republican as Sanders' supporters claim day in and day out.


Why the hell should I feel compelled to give specifics when Sanders' supporters simply recite feelgood campaign mantras and nonsensical accusations?

[LondonReign2]

107. Because it was you that stated that Sanders couldn't get any of his agenda passed

If one is going to make that criticism, it implies that Clinton CAN get her agenda passed. If both candidates were equal in this regard such a claim wouldn't make any sense.

So, since you made the claim, what part or parts of her agenda will Hillary get Republicans to pass?

[Orrex]

108. That's a fancy way of saying that you can't answer the question.

Don't feel bad. None of Sanders supporters nor Sanders himself is apparently able to answer, so at least you have plenty of company.

[LondonReign2]

109. You are unable or unwilling to answer, so your statement/opinion means nothing then

Sorry, trying to dodge your own claim by saying someone else didn't answer some other question rather pathetic. If you want to debate some statement I made I am happy to do so, but to dodge your own claim means it is worthless.

Again, since YOU made the claim, what part or parts of her agenda will Hillary get Republicans to pass?

[Orrex]

111. I made no claim about how Clinton will get anything through Congress

Since you have manufactured that claim, I am not obligated to support that straw man.

In stark contrast, Sanders' supporters have repeatedly claimed that he will get his agenda through Congress, so I have asked them to clarify how this will be done.

Additionally, Sanders' supporters insist either that Clinton is no different from Republicans (in which case she should have no trouble pushing her agenda through Congress) or that she doesn't want to change anything (in which case she'll have nothing to push through Congress). Interestingly, they do not support those claims I infer that perhaps you don't share either of those views, but can you explain why your bedfellows are so keen on them? I've asked them many times, but they haven't answered.

Sanders' cheerleaders refuse to support their own claims while demanding that others support claims that they didn't make.

[LondonReign2]

113. You said "please indicate how Sanders will get his revolutionary ideas through Congress."

Now, I admit I read that as a point being offered why a person shouldn't vote for Sanders. If a person makes such a claim, logically it implies the other candidate is better because they WILL get ideas through. I've seen that line of argument used so often here, yet I have yet to see anyone able to say what they think Clinton could get Republicans to vote with her on. I think it is obvious Republicans will vote against ANY proposal offered by a Democratic President simply out of spite.

So if you are saying Hillary and Bernie have an equal chance of getting anything substantial through a Republican Congress (i.e., zero) than we are in agreement. If you are using it to compare and contrast the candidates, as I have seen attempted so often here, it makes no logical sense unless you can show how the results would be different.

[Orrex]

114. Please elaborate upon your logic

You said "please indicate how Sanders will get his revolutionary ideas through Congress." Now, I admit I read that as a point being offered why a person shouldn't vote for Sanders. If a person makes such a claim, logically it implies the other candidate is better because they WILL get ideas through.

It implies nothing of the sort. By that reasoning, to claim that a thing is untrue about one party, is to claim that the same thing is true about another party (comma inserted for stylistic ease, Strunk & White be damned). How do you justify this leap?

You are still asking me to defend a claim that I haven't made, and it does not logically follow that a question about Sanders necessarily implies a statement about Clinton.

Again, since Sanders' supporters have repeatedly claimed that he'll get his policies enacted, it is reasonable to ask them to explain how he will do so. I've made no claims about how Clinton might get her agenda through Congress, so I don't have to defend that claim.

I think it is obvious Republicans will vote against ANY proposal offered by a Democratic President simply out of spite.

That's a fair statement, and that's probably the meat of the issue. Frankly, I think it boils down to a question of who one thinks will be more effective in working with/against Congress. Sanders' supporters like to cite the several bills and amendments he's written, and given his long career as a politician I would hope to see at least that much.

But in terms of straight up duking it out with Republicans, Clinton strikes me as more effective than Sanders. Witness the recent Benghazi farce for just one example of many.

[hopemountain]

20. " She said... there is only one person looking out for us in this election. "

yes, we all want a better america. thanks for sharing your valued anecdote, tecolote. yes, one story, one vote at it time. easy does it and we can do this with bernie!

those who choose to disparage the stories of others have lives of bitterness and gall. tsk. tsk.

[tecelote]

28. tsk. tsk for sure.

As you say, it is one story at a time that will make this happen.

[draa]

26. Same here with my family.

My deer hunting redneck daughter and sil are also on the Bernie bandwagon. My daughter gave the same reason for voting for Bernie. My two grandchildren need someone to speak for them. Bernie is it.

[hifiguy]

33. It's the Wellstone Effect writ large.

They may not agree with Bernie about every last issue, but they know where his hearf is and that he isn't bullshitting them and won't. People can spot that a mile away if they're not Foxbots.

[leveymg]

31. The Right knows that if HRC is elected there will be a Ruby Ridge in every neighborhood, and the

Left realizes that Ferguson and Flint are a business model that Goldman endorses and she will put into place across vast stretches of America deemed to be not worth gentrification. There is a lot for both to fear from President Hillary. Bernie is probably the only one who is willing to stand up and avoid both American nightmares.

[Sheepshank]

74. Bwahhhh haa haa. Good one bro

[leveymg]

77. When I say "knows", what matters to them is what they think. Their response is the same

regardless. The fear and loathing, though, is real on all sides. She just brings out the worst in everyone.

That is undeniable, bro.

[Kip Humphrey]

34. She said... there is only one person looking out for us in this election.

[gwheezie]

35. A friend of mine said her dad

Heard one of his friends say he's going to vote for Hillary even though he normally votes GOP. He's afraid to tell his son who someone heard say he was going to vote for trump. He's scared his son might put him in the old folks home.

[Orrex]

36. If someone's friend had claimed that same epiphany about Clinton...

Last edited Sat Jan 23, 2016, 10:25 PM - Edit history (1)

A passionate chorus would rise up to recite the mantra that Clinton is a de facto Republican anyway.

But when a nominal Republican joins the flock of the nominal Democrat Sanders, it's taken as proof of his untainted virtue.


Interesting.

[stevenleser]

86. Exactly. Besides which I think a lot of the anecdotes like this are either BS or they are

attempts by Repugs to mislead folks to voting for the person they can most easily beat.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. One way I've motivated people to vote is to think about the "crazy uncle"....

Then I ask them if they really want to see him get what he wants and have him strutting around feeling superior.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

45. "She wishes he was an Independent so she doesn't have to vote for a Democrat"

That's nice.

She'll end up voting for the Rethug. Bank on it.

[DhhD]

51. Voting early, in privacy, is such a charm. no text

[Betty Karlson]

61. Sanders' cross-over appeal is amazing.

Can we please nominate him, just so we can bury the GOP in Senate and House landslides? Let a lot of progressives ride Sanders' coattails and you'll be amazed!

[mountain grammy]

62. One of the most right wing families I know is my Texas in-laws.

I believe my niece will vote for Bernie. She's a struggling single mom sick of the lies and bullshit.

[TIME TO PANIC]

66. Sanders is the only candidate who offers hope to the working class.

His message transcends party lines. Conservatives, who are struggling to make ends meet, might take a chance on a democratic candidate, who promotes policies that would improve the quality of their life.

[senz]

72. K&R - This IS the reason to vote for Bernie.

It's my reason, too.

GO BERNIE!!

[lunatica]

73. Thus the reason for the secret ballot

Making your vote a secret only you, as the voter, know was brilliant.

[IronLionZion]

78. Bernie got 7,000 people to show up....in Alabama

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/01/18/bernie-sanders-pledges-to-a-crowd-of-7000-in-alabama-to-carry-on-kings-legacy/

[classykaren]

92. Last sentence would look great on a Blue hat.

[Orsino]

101. It's a great and absolutely necessary message he brings.

We got shit to do.