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Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 10:33 PM Jan 2016

Coates: "Bernie Sanders and the Liberal Imagination"

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/bernie-sanders-liberal-imagination/425022/

Last week I critiqued Bernie Sanders for dismissing reparations specifically, and for offering up a series of moderate anti-racist solutions, in general. Some felt it was unfair to single out Sanders given that, on reparations, Sanders’s chief opponent Hillary Clinton holds the same position. This argument proposes that we abandon the convention of judging our candidates by their chosen name:

When a candidate points to high unemployment among black youth, as well as high incarceration rates, and then dubs himself a radical, it seems prudent to ask what radical anti-racist policies that candidate actually embraces. Hillary Clinton has no interest in being labeled radical, left-wing, or even liberal. Thus announcing that Clinton doesn’t support reparations is akin to announcing that Ted Cruz doesn’t support a woman’s right to choose. The position is certainly wrong. But it is hardly a surprise, and doesn't run counter to the candidate’s chosen name.

What candidates name themselves is generally believed to be important. Many Sanders supporters, for instance, correctly point out that Clinton handprints are all over America’s sprawling carceral state. I agree with them and have said so at length. Voters, and black voters particularly, should never forget that Bill Clinton passed arguably the most immoral “anti-crime” bill in American history, and that Hillary Clinton aided its passage through her invocation of the super-predator myth. A defense of Clinton rooted in the claim that “Jeb Bush held the same position” would not be exculpatory. (“Law and order conservative embraces law and order” would surprise no one.) That is because the anger over the Clintons’ actions isn’t simply based on their having been wrong, but on their craven embrace of law and order Republicanism in the Democratic Party’s name.

One does not find anything as damaging as the carceral state in the Sanders platform, but the dissonance between name and action is the same. Sanders’s basic approach is to ameliorate the effects of racism through broad, mostly class-based policies—doubling the minimum wage, offering single-payer health-care, delivering free higher education. This is the same “A rising tide lifts all boats” thinking that has dominated Democratic anti-racist policy for a generation. Sanders proposes to intensify this approach. But Sanders’s actual approach is really no different than President Obama’s. I have repeatedly stated my problem with the “rising tide” philosophy when embraced by Obama and liberals in general. (See here, here, here, and here.) Again, briefly, treating a racist injury solely with class-based remedies is like treating a gun-shot wound solely with bandages. The bandages help, but they will not suffice.
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Coates: "Bernie Sanders and the Liberal Imagination" (Original Post) Empowerer Jan 2016 OP
ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz nt ypsfonos Jan 2016 #1
This brotha needs to chill. He needs to get off the reparations idea. JRLeft Jan 2016 #2
How about the single payer idea. Should we get off that one too? DanTex Jan 2016 #65
I already got into this with actual black people. JRLeft Jan 2016 #67
What does my race have to do with my belief that Bernie should forget the single payer pipe dream? DanTex Jan 2016 #68
Because you're not being sincere, you don't give a fuck. You're using JRLeft Jan 2016 #69
How about we drop the personal attacks, and instead talk about single payer. DanTex Jan 2016 #71
yes, I agree that false analogies can be powerful TheSarcastinator Jan 2016 #78
Yet another substance-free reply. The more of these I get, the clearer it becomes. DanTex Jan 2016 #79
Sanders is neither a radical or a socialist. azmom Jan 2016 #3
But when your logical premise, and thus your argument, fails? Bernin4U Jan 2016 #9
Coates says Bernie "dubs himself a radical" WTF? AtomicKitten Jan 2016 #58
Bernie Sanders said it sarcastically. Eric J in MN Jan 2016 #97
I too read it as mocking the absurd moniker applied to him by others. AtomicKitten Jan 2016 #103
Another example Eric J in MN Jan 2016 #105
Is Denmark a socialist country? NT Eric J in MN Jan 2016 #99
I don't know what is expected here. Armstead Jan 2016 #4
As much as black people deserve reparations, this will be the white person's response: "Why JRLeft Jan 2016 #6
As much as all people deserve free college, Republicans will insist the money also go KittyWampus Jan 2016 #89
Another white person using reparations to knock single payer. JRLeft Jan 2016 #104
Why do you assume that, because blacks support this more strongly than whites, that Empowerer Jan 2016 #10
Please show me that there is a groundswell of support for it... Armstead Jan 2016 #30
The author and the above poster never accuse Sanders of being racist. Agschmid Jan 2016 #57
This piece is much better kcjohn1 Jan 2016 #5
With all the mixed people, the nation would have to pay 50 to 100 JRLeft Jan 2016 #7
I also liked this piece. tazkcmo Jan 2016 #34
"He's a reasonable man and will listen to We the People" Empowerer Jan 2016 #61
You're welcome tazkcmo Jan 2016 #93
Behold the power of Bernie supporters: writers like TNC and Krugman are compelled to respond aikoaiko Jan 2016 #8
I doubt they feel compelled by Sanders supporters to justify their work Empowerer Jan 2016 #11
And yet, they did. aikoaiko Jan 2016 #13
I'm black and I'm being a realist. White people in this country won't allow it. JRLeft Jan 2016 #15
Well then, that settles it. We'd better not even try cause the white folks won't let us Empowerer Jan 2016 #17
OK try it, please do! JRLeft Jan 2016 #18
We've been trying it for years - and eventually we're going to get there Empowerer Jan 2016 #20
Ask Hillary if she's for it. JRLeft Jan 2016 #21
In other words, you've run out of anything relevant to say. Empowerer Jan 2016 #22
Oh really? JRLeft Jan 2016 #23
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2016 #40
Hmm. Hissyspit Jan 2016 #76
Well then, that settles it. We'd better not even elect Sanders because Congress won't let him work. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2016 #88
You're only allowed to be "a realist" if you support Hillary. John Poet Jan 2016 #102
Wait... so even though Coates has basically said that the response he's gotten from alot of Sanders Number23 Jan 2016 #96
Good grief another Not Good Enough Bernie blog post by this guy. Autumn Jan 2016 #12
Bernie's idea are radical to Wall Street, not the American people ram2008 Jan 2016 #14
It's not radical, it's just not realistic. JRLeft Jan 2016 #16
You do know that blacks are Americans, too Empowerer Jan 2016 #19
Neither do Hillary supporters. JRLeft Jan 2016 #24
Like I said Bernie's ideas cut across political lines and color ram2008 Jan 2016 #25
"Destroying white supremacy requires commitment to the promotion of unpopular policies" Empowerer Jan 2016 #26
Spare me the rhetoric ram2008 Jan 2016 #28
So, Sanders' political revolution is limited to taking power away from the billionaires and bankers Empowerer Jan 2016 #35
You're conflating civil rights with reparations. ram2008 Jan 2016 #36
What kind of reparations program are you talking about? JDPriestly Jan 2016 #29
If Conyers's Reparations Study bill ever got out of committee we could say Recursion Jan 2016 #39
"I also think it would divide the races rather than bring them together" Empowerer Jan 2016 #62
I would not disagree with you, but having lived in places in which I as an American was a JDPriestly Jan 2016 #94
Those are good questions Empowerer Jan 2016 #95
I liked this: JDPriestly Jan 2016 #107
Black people are Americans too uponit7771 Jan 2016 #45
Well, the African Americans are. aikoaiko Jan 2016 #98
Predictable from this author jonestonesusa Jan 2016 #27
Agreed. McWhorter makes the case TNC's argument is facile at best Arazi Jan 2016 #31
Thanks for the reference. jonestonesusa Jan 2016 #108
Some really twisted logic employed to justify holding different candidates to different standards tularetom Jan 2016 #32
He did not say that he considers Clinton a racist Empowerer Jan 2016 #33
HRC and MoM aren't claiming the title of revolutionary, Sanders is... at least he should put an uponit7771 Jan 2016 #46
If you truly care about reparations then all candidates' opinions should matter. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #48
They all do matter and HRC and MoM have given their opinions; its impractical ... I'll accept that i uponit7771 Jan 2016 #49
Where do they stand then? Cite their positions if you're so informed. beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #52
!? Their positions are a copy past from a simple search... and they, unlike Sanders, are being ... uponit7771 Jan 2016 #53
So you don't know what their positions are? beam me up scottie Jan 2016 #55
Great messaging as always guys! Iggy Knorr Jan 2016 #64
Coates should seriously address Sanders' approach to ameliorating the effects of racism. Vattel Jan 2016 #37
Racism is intimately tied in with Capitalist exploitation. Odin2005 Jan 2016 #38
establishment tool mhatrw Jan 2016 #41
Ta Nehisi Coates celebrates 9/11 responders dying LittleBlue Jan 2016 #42
Sounds like he heard from Team Bernie. Wonder if they threatened to sue? ucrdem Jan 2016 #43
I'm pretty bored with the hypocrisy from those mmonk Jan 2016 #44
SANDERS called himself a revolutionary not TNC, revolution with an asterisks is not revolution uponit7771 Jan 2016 #47
Enjoy your corporate rule if you think it represents mmonk Jan 2016 #50
That's not a response to the topic at hand, I don't think HRC will be coporate rule... uponit7771 Jan 2016 #51
There is no emancipation from a position of servitude. mmonk Jan 2016 #56
I think the main problem is that Bernie is already far to the left of anyone else in the race. Kentonio Jan 2016 #54
I appreciate the clarification. vi5 Jan 2016 #59
Here's the Reader's Digest version of this piece: Vinca Jan 2016 #60
Why should the dreams of some be answered while the dreams of others deferred or never realized ? DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2016 #63
"Support our dreams and then sit down and be quiet. Eventually our dreams will trickle down Empowerer Jan 2016 #66
Ask Hillary ram2008 Jan 2016 #72
Is the crime bill you are alluding to... DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2016 #73
One of their statements predicted the outcome... ram2008 Jan 2016 #74
The Vermont independent made a speech... DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2016 #75
Bernie is pragmatic on many issues ram2008 Jan 2016 #77
" Bernie is pragmatic on many issues..." DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2016 #80
Where has Bernie said dreams of some more important than others? ram2008 Jan 2016 #81
His own words DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2016 #82
This precisely ties into his revolution rhetoric ram2008 Jan 2016 #83
What if one's revolution includes reparations? DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2016 #84
What if ones revolution includes complete nuclear disarmament, or getting rid of all taxes? ram2008 Jan 2016 #85
I wouldn't summarily dismiss their dreams while bolstering mine. DemocratSinceBirth Jan 2016 #90
And its a silly argument. I guess candidates can't have agendas then, huh? ram2008 Jan 2016 #92
Although deserved, its not so clear to me that reparations would end white supremacy. aikoaiko Jan 2016 #70
So unless they don't completely end white supremacy, they shouldn't be done at all? Empowerer Jan 2016 #87
I think you misunderstood my question. aikoaiko Jan 2016 #91
Goal isn't to be thought police, it's to end its infrastructure and ability to effect folks lives uponit7771 Jan 2016 #101
And on cue the dudebros throw Coates under the bus: Blue_Tires Jan 2016 #86
Surely you're not shocked by this? Not by now? Number23 Jan 2016 #100
Disagreement with an argument is jonestonesusa Jan 2016 #109
Clearly you didn't read his TL Blue_Tires Jan 2016 #110
You can curse and deflect and all you want. jonestonesusa Jan 2016 #111
Who is doing the talking matters... AOR Jan 2016 #106
 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
2. This brotha needs to chill. He needs to get off the reparations idea.
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 10:54 PM
Jan 2016

This country won't ever go for, if it was going to happen it would have happened during reconstruction.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
65. How about the single payer idea. Should we get off that one too?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:08 AM
Jan 2016

The country won't ever go for that either.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
68. What does my race have to do with my belief that Bernie should forget the single payer pipe dream?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:29 AM
Jan 2016
 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
69. Because you're not being sincere, you don't give a fuck. You're using
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:38 AM
Jan 2016

reparations as a reason not to support single payer and Bernie.

You're just Hillary trying to use my people's painful experience to hurt Bernie.

So yes your race has everything to do with it.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
71. How about we drop the personal attacks, and instead talk about single payer.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:41 AM
Jan 2016

It's a pipe dream, everyone understands that. Why shouldn't Bernie drop it the way you recommend he drops reparations?

The only way I see the race angle as relevant is if I were pro-single-payer and anti-reparations. In that case, you'd have a legitimate question as to why I was in favor of some pipe dreams but not others.

TheSarcastinator

(854 posts)
78. yes, I agree that false analogies can be powerful
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jan 2016

but are susceptible to criticism for lack of accuracy.

Try again.

azmom

(5,208 posts)
3. Sanders is neither a radical or a socialist.
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:00 PM
Jan 2016

He's left of Obama and Hillary but that in no way makes him a socialist.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
58. Coates says Bernie "dubs himself a radical" WTF?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:46 AM
Jan 2016

I heard Coates say the same thing when interviewed by Chris Hayes as his rationale for singling Bernie out on this.

I have never heard Bernie refer to himself as a radical nor found any evidence in any media reporting of same. Others have referred to him and/or his ideas as radical, but never once has he "'dubbed himself a radical."

Coates' explanation for singling Bernie out on this is disingenuous at best and not done in a vacuum. In the context of an election, it's just another toxic hit piece.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
97. Bernie Sanders said it sarcastically.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 04:10 PM
Jan 2016

From the article:

"Youth unemployment for African American kids is 51 percent. We have more people in jail than any other country. So yes, count me as a radical. I want to invest in jobs and education for our young people rather than jails and incarceration." - Bernie Sanders

Bernie Sanders doesn't think it's radical to want to invest in jobs and education. He was being sarcastic.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
103. I too read it as mocking the absurd moniker applied to him by others.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 04:24 PM
Jan 2016

He often talks about how his agenda is what a significant majority of the American people support.

At a breakfast in Washington on Thursday, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) dismissed any perception that he's radically outside the American mainstream. Referring to his core campaign positions, he said: "It is not a radical agenda. In virtually every instance, what I'm saying is supported by a significant majority of the American people."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/12/bernie-sanders-says-americans-back-his-agenda-and-hes-mostly-right/




 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
4. I don't know what is expected here.
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:03 PM
Jan 2016

Sanders has all his life been outspoken in his beliefs in social justice and anti-racism.

Because he does not choose to adopt and push for one very specific, and not widely supported policy, simply to pander to a particular demographic, he's a racist hypocrite? He doesn't care about AAs, because he wants to provide them with universal healthcare and better wages?

The author has a totally valid opinion that perhaps there should be more consideration of reparations in the national debate. But to single out Sanders for criticism for not choosing to lead that particular cause in a campaign that is already an uphill battle is ridiculous. There are many very specific causes he is not emphasizing that have nothing to do with race.







 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
6. As much as black people deserve reparations, this will be the white person's response: "Why
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:07 PM
Jan 2016

should I pay reparations I had nothing to do with it by the way that was a long time ago."

Republicans will love that.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
89. As much as all people deserve free college, Republicans will insist the money also go
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:23 PM
Jan 2016

to wealthy kids Harvard education. Like public funds are now going to private grade schools (vouchers).

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
10. Why do you assume that, because blacks support this more strongly than whites, that
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:20 PM
Jan 2016

advocating for it is "pandering to a particular demographic?"

Do you think that other issues that Sanders says he will fight for that are strongly supported by his white supporters constitutes "pandering" to that particular demographic?

And as been explained numerous times, Sanders is not being "singled out." He's being held accountable for what he claims he is all about, as he should be. Unfortunately, he could put this to rest if he just gave a cogent explanation for why he is not afraid - and is indeed eager - to fight for causes that are by no means sure things but he is walking away from this one because it is "not widely supported."

Sanders supporters keep telling us all about the quiet riot that Sanders will foment if elected that will build and swell grassroots support to insurmountable power that will force the adoption of all manner of measures that are not right now "widely supported." And every time someone suggests that this might be a bit ambitious, we're shouted down with taunts of "Bernie's willing to TRY!" and "Hillary is the 'No we CAN'T'" candidate. But, suddenly on this issue, Sanders and his troops are completely powerless to effect change? It doesn't make any sense. If Sanders cares about this issue, why not speak out on it and encourage his supporters to get behind it. From what we've been told, you all have immense power to move mountains, so why not use that power to help African Americans achieve something that is 150 years overdue?

As I've said, I think the problem is not that reparations aren't "widely supported"- it's that reparations aren't widely supported by the white folks in Sanders' camp and therefore, they're a non-starter. Sanders' avoidance of this issue - exacerbated by his supporters' outright hostility and nastiness about it - is not lost on black voters who care about this issue deeply.

And please stop with the BS - if Bernie gets questioned about race, he's being called a racist. That's just pure bull. He is not so pure that he can't be questioned about such things. And if he is as good on race as you all seem to think he is, he shouldn't mind being asked these questions. I expect that kind of diversion from Republican bigots - it's very troubling to see it in exactly the same form and tone coming from white liberals.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
30. Please show me that there is a groundswell of support for it...
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:44 AM
Jan 2016

Last edited Mon Jan 25, 2016, 01:16 AM - Edit history (1)

as a priority among a majority of all AAs. Some polls, some evidence that a large number of AAs of all political persuasions would rather see reparations, as the sole solution, and put other issues like economic justice, criminal justice reform, voting rights, etc,. on the back burner. Please prove to me that they are clamoring to push all politicians to make that their priority.

Please show me real evidence that the vast majority of AAs believe things like access to healthcare, education, employment opportunities, decent wages, full voting rights, police reform are unimportant. That those issues are just "white people's issues" that will have no tangible positive effect on their lives.

And please explain to me that a majority of minorities believe that programs and investments targeted to improve the lives of people and communities in impoverished neighborhoods would be less successful than reparations.

That they would rather see all candidates who support other issues also important to AAs shift all all their energies into reparations, as the preferred solution to provide equal opportunity and respect and practical necessities. That they would rather see those politicians,. including Sanders and Clinton and every other candidate who is not a right wing racist become the candidates of reparations above all.

And explain to me how if Sanders were to suddenly to drop all of his otehr issues, and make reparations a priority, that would improve his chances to gain a majority of the AA vote as well as the white,. Hispanic and otehr ethnic votes.

In otehr words, make a case based on something other than facile claims that Sanders is a racist hypocrite because he has chosen to focus on otehr issues, like giving poor minority kids access to college. And that those of us who support Sanders are racist hypocrites because we are not making that single issue a priority.

If you can do that, there may be some basis for discussion.






kcjohn1

(751 posts)
5. This piece is much better
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:04 PM
Jan 2016

As Sanders fan. He makes much better case. His previous piece was easily used by Clinton campaign for political reasons. I doubt they'll mention this piece.

I still don't agree with him. Reparations are non starter because it's not practical even if there are enough votes. He needs to specific on how we make descendants of slaves whole.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
34. I also liked this piece.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:58 AM
Jan 2016

My belief is that the "dialogue" needs to start with We the People. Why reparations? Smarter people than myself make excellent cases for it. That's a good beginning. Answer that and move on to What form can they be in? Does it have to be money? What about land?
The author has sparked a worthy conversation in my opinion and if enough of us talk about it, the more our politicians SHOULD start paying attention. This is exactly what Sen Sanders himself calls for in his stump speeches.

I support Sen Sanders. I agree with him 99% of the time. I also support reparations in some or many forms. This is part of the 1% I disagree with him but I also feel confident he can be persuaded to support it as more and more of us discuss it. He's a reasonable man and will listen to We the People.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
61. "He's a reasonable man and will listen to We the People"
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 09:29 AM
Jan 2016

That's what I've always thought until recently - I'm starting to doubt it now. But that's largely because of what I'm hearing from so many of his supporters - who are doing him a gross disservice - not so much because of him, so maybe I'm not being fair to him. Hearing from reasonable supporters such as you reminds me - or at least, lets me hope - that you represent the vast majority of them but just don't get a chance to be heard.

What you say makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
93. You're welcome
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 02:24 PM
Jan 2016

I understand about supporters turning you off, I feel the same about some HRC supporters but I focus on what the candidates say as they will be the one's in office. As for the supporters, emotions run high at times and even when I disagree I respect people's passion for what they believe.

aikoaiko

(34,172 posts)
8. Behold the power of Bernie supporters: writers like TNC and Krugman are compelled to respond
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:17 PM
Jan 2016


Its really an awesome endorsement of the movement that random Bernie supporters commenting through email or social media compel the big thinkers to justify their work.


Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
11. I doubt they feel compelled by Sanders supporters to justify their work
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:23 PM
Jan 2016

However, as thoughtful, well-prepared writers, they are more than able to do so.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
20. We've been trying it for years - and eventually we're going to get there
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:52 PM
Jan 2016

Of course, we'd succeed much quicker if the people who claim to be so liberal and so committed to civil rights and who insist that their candidate is the best hope for African Americans because he runs laps around other politicians on civil rights (and did you know that he marched with Dr. King?) actually stepped up and fought for civil rights for African Americans even when it wasn't convenient and even if what they're fighting for wasn't really intended to benefit white Americans first with black folks getting the by-product (maybe) . . .

In other words, it's really unfortunate that you all talk a good game, but refuse to put your money where your mouth is.

And you wonder why black folks don't see Sanders as our Great White Hope.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
22. In other words, you've run out of anything relevant to say.
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:55 PM
Jan 2016

Thanks for an interesting conversation.

Response to Empowerer (Reply #20)

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
88. Well then, that settles it. We'd better not even elect Sanders because Congress won't let him work.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:22 PM
Jan 2016

Wow is fucking right.

 

John Poet

(2,510 posts)
102. You're only allowed to be "a realist" if you support Hillary.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 04:18 PM
Jan 2016

If you support Bernie, you are not allowed to be "a realist"
while they demand you fight for
every strawman "unicorn"
that they can come up with...
so they may then attack you for believing in "unicorns".

Hillary's people would LIKE for Bernie to come out for reparations,
so that they could attack it...

Number23

(24,544 posts)
96. Wait... so even though Coates has basically said that the response he's gotten from alot of Sanders
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 04:09 PM
Jan 2016

supporters read like Hillary-obsessed proponents of maintaining America's white supremacist system, to you that's a GOOD thing?

Autumn

(45,107 posts)
12. Good grief another Not Good Enough Bernie blog post by this guy.
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:27 PM
Jan 2016

Reparations are not going to happen and Bernie's platform is the one that will actually benefit minorities.

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
14. Bernie's idea are radical to Wall Street, not the American people
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:31 PM
Jan 2016

Reparations is an idea that is radical to both. It's a non-starter.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
19. You do know that blacks are Americans, too
Sun Jan 24, 2016, 11:46 PM
Jan 2016

This is not a radical idea for all of the American people. What you really should say is that it's a radical idea for white people.

Just like desegregation and full voting rights and gay marriage and a black president used to be until they were forced to change their minds.

But you are perfectly illustrating a point I made in another thread in the AA forum. The problem with reparations is not that they are impractical - Sanders is all about doing the impractical to the delight and awe of his supporters. The problem with reparations is that his white supporters don't like them, and he's not willing to go against them, even if it's the right thing to do. So, despite his reputation for being a fearless fighter for the underdog, it appears that he is only willing to fight for certain underdogs when it's not too much trouble and he doesn't have to use up too much political capital. That's a completely different picture than the one we're being sold.

And, fyi, Wall Street isn't a person or persons. It's a place and an industry.

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
25. Like I said Bernie's ideas cut across political lines and color
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:01 AM
Jan 2016

Universal healthcare and public tuition for colleges isn't a radical idea nor is it something impractical and extremely divisive. Most logical people see that reigniting the divisions of 100's of years ago would take us a step back as a country, not to mention the impracticality of it, as Obama has said:

“I have said in the past — and I’ll repeat again — that the best reparations we can provide are good schools in the inner city and jobs for people who are unemployed,” the Illinois Democrat said recently.


I tend to agree. There is a coalition that can be brought together to achieve this, just as there is one that can be brought together to bring us a step closer to universal healthcare. There is no coalition that would be able to bring about cash reparations.

A radically unpopular idea like reparations would be something akin to Bernie was calling to cut defense spending 80% or the elimination of borders.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
26. "Destroying white supremacy requires commitment to the promotion of unpopular policies"
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:12 AM
Jan 2016

For a crowd that claims to be so excited about and committed to disruption, you all certainly get pretty conservative and pragmatic when it comes to disrupting on behalf of minorities.

Got it. Let's remember that the next time you all accuse any other candidate or their supporters for being "No, we can't" pragmatists . . .

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
28. Spare me the rhetoric
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:26 AM
Jan 2016

I'm a minority. I think reparations are a terribly impractical idea that would harm racial relations and I'm glad Bernie isn't stupid enough to promote them.

Just because I'm opposed to impractical, non starters of policy, doesn't make me a conservative. I think Single Payer and Public tuition are realistic goals that can unify at least half of the country-- reparations not so much.

FYI When Bernie is talking about a "political revolution" he's talking about taking power away from billionaires and bankers which fund your candidates campaign, and giving power to the people, of which wholly reject the idea of reparations as a whole. He's not talking about promoting wildly radical ideas opposed by >2/3 of the population.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
35. So, Sanders' political revolution is limited to taking power away from the billionaires and bankers
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 01:05 AM
Jan 2016

and giving power to the people so that they can exert majority rule on every matter, including civil rights.

Sanders certainly didn't advocate this back when he was "marching with Dr. King" and a substantial majority of the population opposed such radical ideas as desegregation and voting rights for blacks or 20 years ago when a substantial majority of the population opposed the radical idea of marriage equality.

Interesting to see Sanders supporters now argue that civil rights should be subjected to majority rule and aren't worth fighting for if a substantial majority of the population opposes them.

And, again, you wonder why, with such a point of view, you aren't finding much success in persuading black voters to jump en masse onto the Sanders bandwagon.

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
36. You're conflating civil rights with reparations.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 01:10 AM
Jan 2016

Seriously that's some disingenuous twisting you got going on there. Again, the point of the "political revolution" is to get more people involved - those who don't normally vote, the lower class, working people - to participate in democracy and wrestle away power from the elites. What that entails is up for debate, but Bernie wants it to include increasing the minimum wage, universal healthcare and public tuition for colleges. The idea is that corporate interests within our government have been fighting against this using their money and influence over politicians, and when these interests are removed from power, these ideas which the American people generally support, will be able to pass. The 'revolution' is having peoples voices heard and not drowned out by corporate money.

If you seriously think Hillary Clinton, a candidate owned by Goldman Sachs, an architect of a crime bill which has incarcerated millions of African Americans and destroyed their families, would be better for black voters, you are delusional.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
29. What kind of reparations program are you talking about?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:30 AM
Jan 2016

Would you compensate people because they can prove their ancestors were slaves? Would you compensate all Black people even if they came from Jamaica or Nigeria? How about the Chinese and people of other races?

Would the reparations be based on race or on family history?

How much African descent or DNA would you require in order to make someone eligible for reparations if you base them on race?

And what about the descendants of people who fought in the Civil War on the Union side to free the slaves, especially those whose families lost sons in that war and those whose ancestors were injured?

What about people who were early abolitionists?

It's a very complex bit of history we are talking about.

If reparations mean to you specific sums of money to specific individuals, I think that would create even more racial division in our society than we have today. If by reparations you mean investment in African-American (and other relatively poor communities) that opens our society to the people in those communities, then I support that very strongly.

And if by reparations you mean investment in African-American and other very depressed communities, especially depressed communities of color with high unemployment, bad schools, etc., then I think the criticism of Bernie is misplaced because as one who worked as a white person for an African-American boss in a nonprofit serving mostly homeless black men, I think Bernie is proposing the right approach and will invest in the communities that need it.

Affirmative action, as justified and good a program as it is has been divisive and has given many white people an excuse to hate and criticize and be jealous.

So, reparations, what does that really mean? I guess that is my question.

Jewish people received reparations after WWII from Germany. But it was relatively easy to trace back the wealth that was directly robbed from the Jewish population, everything from gold teeth to businesses to castles -- because the German government kept records. So many Jewish people were killed by the NAZIs and records were kept of the deaths. That made awarding reparations relatively easy, calculating what was lost and holding the government of the nation that caused the losses, stole the property of Jewish people accountable.

It's not such a simple thing to calculate just reparations for slavery, an institution that was abolished 150 years ago.

If it is a matter of reparations in the form of community investment, that can be more easily organized and also sold to Americans as a whole.

So what is meant by reparations and how would you figure who should receive them or how they should be awarded and on what basis, slavery among ancestors or simply race?

I really don't see it as a practical solution. I also think it would divide the races rather than bring them together.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
39. If Conyers's Reparations Study bill ever got out of committee we could say
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 01:18 AM
Jan 2016

Last edited Mon Jan 25, 2016, 04:37 AM - Edit history (1)

As it is we have people freaking out about the bare concept, not even an implementation of it.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
62. "I also think it would divide the races rather than bring them together"
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 09:57 AM
Jan 2016

Is usually a euphemism for "white people won't like it" - a common excuse for opposing all manner of civil rights measures.

Anything that shakes up the white power structure is "divisive." But I thought Sanders WANTS to shake things up. Apparently, the disruption that his campaign advocates has very limited parameters - disruption is fine, as long as it doesn't make TOO many white people uncomfortable.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
94. I would not disagree with you, but having lived in places in which I as an American was a
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 03:35 PM
Jan 2016

very tiny minority, I realize that it is probably pretty impossible for a minority to shake up the power structure of the majority. Of course, if California is any measure, the majority white power structure could in a generation or two become the minority. We shall see.

But I asked a lot of questions about how a reparation would work, and I would really like to know. Would reparations be awarded on any individual basis? How would eligibility be determined?

Lots of mixed race people in my family, and that is why I am curious about this. My family is big on doing DNA because of the scholarly interest in that field on the parts of a few people. Races are not really as separate as we perceived. We Americans at least are far more mixed already than we realize.

What about people who immigrated here in recent years from Africa or other countries in which people are considered to be non-white?

Would the reparations be directly related to slave ancestry? Then why not have those whose ancestors had slaves pay the reparations directly? What about people whose ancestors fought in the Civil War to free slaves? What about people whose ancestors were active abolitionists?

How would you do this fairly? I am genuinely asking and not being snarky.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
95. Those are good questions
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 04:02 PM
Jan 2016

And they don't all lend themselves to easy answers. But the degree of difficulty of the problem should not mean that they should not be looked at seriously.

Mind you, I don't know whether I support reparations or not. I am still studying the issue to determine where I would come out. But the issue is a very important one that should not be dismissed out of hand because it's complicated - especially since the main reason it is so complicated now is that any serious consideration of this was deferred decade after decade after decade. It seems grossly unfair to me for justice to be purposely, vigorously and cruelly delayed for 150 years and then to tell people they cannot get justice because it's too late.

Here's an interesting and thoughtful piece written by Prof. Charles Ogletree, a brilliant and highly respected Harvard law professor (he taught President Obama), who has done a lot of work in this area. http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/crcl/vol38_2/ogletree.pdf

I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you've had a chance to read and digest it.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
107. I liked this:
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 06:16 PM
Jan 2016
A state’s acknowledgment of its complicity in a history of discrimination lasting from slavery or Jim Crow through the present day is an essential, non-monetary prerequisite to the reparations goal of racial reconciliation. Many more individuals than could be named in a Jim Crow reparations complaint would benefit from inventive, broad-ranging initiatives. Financial remedies such as the creation of business funds to aid African Americans and broad-ranging educational, housing, and health care initiatives might overcome individual remedy difficulties and assist in combating racial inequality.



http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/crcl/vol38_2/ogletree.pdf

The procedural barriers to the lawsuits are pretty daunting. And then there are juries.

What is a jury made up of today's Americans going to award in such a lawsuit? Even the Trayvon Martin jury couldn't bring justice -- to say nothing of the other juries in criminal and civil actions against police officers who commit what appears to me to be outright murder of African-Americans, unarmed, helpless African-Americans.

If Americans cannot elect Bernie Sanders as president, then there will certainly be no reparations, not even a roundabout legislative movement toward remedying the damages caused by slavery and discrimination that was Johnson's goal in the War on Poverty and the possibility discussed in the paragraph I quote.

What the media and Hillary fans object to about Bernie Sanders' platform is that it will cost too much money. The Clintons don't want to provide state university and college educations tuition-free because, hey, some rich people's kids might benefit. That mentality pretty much eliminates any kind of reparations to anyone at this time. Someone who wasn't really poor might just get something they did not "deserve" or need enough.

Whereas, Bernie's idea to have universal, single-payer health insurance would really be useful, in my experience, especially to a lot of the poorest African-Americans, Hillary supporters don't even want to pay for that out of tax funds.

Anyway, Bernie's proposals may not talk about reparations, but they are probably the most likely to lift poor communities including the descendants of slaves as well as the children of the poor of Appalachia.

While we are at it, women (I'm a woman of a generation that remembers the discrimination against women) have been discriminated against for centuries whether white or African-American or whatever. Career choices for a lower middle-class woman were, when I was starting college, teaching, nursing or secretarial. Today, we women still bear a heavier share of the unpaid household work as well as primary responsibility for raising children including getting up in the middle of the night to nurse our babies and, it has been verified, earn significantly less than men for the same jobs. Do you think there should also be reparations for women? The damages are relatively recent in many cases and the claimants know who they are.

How about it? Not slavery, but in some cases especially in the past, quite close. And the damages could be more easily calculated for women than for the descendants of slaves.

jonestonesusa

(880 posts)
27. Predictable from this author
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:18 AM
Jan 2016

The piece only pretends to assess Sanders' actual legislation agenda. It also makes little effort to consider why black voters do support Sanders, not a majority of black voters but certainly a significant minority. This new article at least acknowledges a bit more that other politicians do not support reparations and that the Clintons have something to do with mass incarceration, which is one of the biggest factors in the wealth gap. Nothing is said about the mortgage and banking role in robbing black communities of wealth, which is a concern that has motivated parts of the Sanders platform. Coates gets it right that racism can't be solved by strictly class based solutions, but come on, universal healthcare and college access are more than a bandage on a gunshot wound, as he says. This article is still pretty light on the policy analysis and long on the generalities.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
31. Agreed. McWhorter makes the case TNC's argument is facile at best
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:49 AM
Jan 2016
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/20/opinions/ta-nehisi-coates-attack-on-bernie-sanders-mcwhorter/

However, Coates' attack on Sanders is premised on a weakness in his general take on black history, which, while charismatically expressed, is vastly oversimplified.

Coates' version of black history is that black problems, including anything others might see as problems with our culture, are traceable to evils that whites imposed on us in the past.

Coates on why African Americans deserve reparations

Coates on why African Americans deserve reparations 01:06
If not lynching, then slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, and so on. Surely legacies matter, but this analysis wears decidedly thin in places. Coates is hardly alone, for example, in demanding that America accept that when legions of black teenagers shoot each other over sneakers and turf, the real reason, on some level, is white racism. However, the onus is on Coates and his confreres to make that case and make it stick.

It never seems to work in terms of creating a meaningful consensus, and racism is not the sole reason for that. Social history -- including for the descendants of African slaves -- is complicated.

jonestonesusa

(880 posts)
108. Thanks for the reference.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:05 PM
Jan 2016

McWhorter has always seemed a bit conservative to me, but I have not checked out his writing too much. I will check out the link.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
32. Some really twisted logic employed to justify holding different candidates to different standards
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:49 AM
Jan 2016

Whoever wrote this is just looking for an excuse to not support Sanders.

Even after the author admits he doesn't hold Clinton to the same high standards because he considers her a racist, he still whines that Sanders isn't doing enough.

He should therefore find a candidate who supports reparations and support that candidate.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
46. HRC and MoM aren't claiming the title of revolutionary, Sanders is... at least he should put an
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:09 AM
Jan 2016

... asterisk by the term, that would make it more consistent

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
48. If you truly care about reparations then all candidates' opinions should matter.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:15 AM
Jan 2016

If you're just exploiting the issue and holding Bernie to a different standard as some Hillary supporters are doing I have to assume the issue is not all that important to you.

I wonder many of her supporters were posting about reparations before this week.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
49. They all do matter and HRC and MoM have given their opinions; its impractical ... I'll accept that i
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:19 AM
Jan 2016

... that's what they believe.

I'm not going to accept "everything IS practical ..... except for reparations" that Sanders is spouting.

I didn't think of reparations before TNCs article

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
52. Where do they stand then? Cite their positions if you're so informed.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:23 AM
Jan 2016

And if they concur with Bernie then by definition his position is practical as well.

I'm not going to accept "everything IS practical ..... except for reparations" that Sanders is not spouting.


That's your strawman, Bernie never said or even implied any such thing.

Holding liberals to different standards is typically a right wing tactic.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
53. !? Their positions are a copy past from a simple search... and they, unlike Sanders, are being ...
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:26 AM
Jan 2016

... pragmatic about the issue

Sanders is the ANTI pragmatic in this years primary race...... except for reparations.

Revolution with an asterisk is not revolution

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
55. So you don't know what their positions are?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:29 AM
Jan 2016

And yet you quantity their positions as "pragmatic" and his as not?

If they concur then by definition their positions are all pragmatic. Words don't mean different things because you say so.

Revolution with an asterisk is not revolution


You've posted that at least a dozen times and it's still word salad.
 

Iggy Knorr

(247 posts)
64. Great messaging as always guys!
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:05 AM
Jan 2016

See? your little revolutionary comrade pinko Sanders is not as cool as you thought, eh? HA HA! PS vote for Clinton she's against reparations too, but she is not pretending to be a revolutionary or something!

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
37. Coates should seriously address Sanders' approach to ameliorating the effects of racism.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 01:13 AM
Jan 2016

Sanders has many proposals that do not exemplify "a rising tide lifts all boats" approach (e.g., legalizing marijuana, investing heavily in poor urban neighborhoods, youth job programs). Coates doesn't take the time to address them, nor does he actually even claim to disagree with Sanders' "class-based policies" (single-payer healthcare, free higher education, and raising the minimum wage to $15). He can't seriously think that Sanders' calling himself a radical concerning ending mass incarceration and promoting employment and educational opportunities for African Americans is somehow inconsistent with opposing reparations. So I am not sure what his beef is supposed to be.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
38. Racism is intimately tied in with Capitalist exploitation.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 01:16 AM
Jan 2016

You can't fix the first without ending the second. Reparations are a band-aid, a distraction.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
41. establishment tool
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 02:51 AM
Jan 2016

Last edited Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:46 AM - Edit history (1)

No, Bernie isn't perfect on every single issue you embrace.

He's pro-growth. He hasn't proposed a maximum wage or a wealth tax. He doesn't support reparations. He doesn't want to outlaw all guns. He isn't anti-Israel. He's not campaigning against "In God We Trust" or against playing the national anthem at sporting events. He's not for returning huge swaths of the United States to Mexico and Native Americans. He even voted for Lockheed to bring jobs to Vermont.

So go ahead and play establishment tool. May you be rewarded as handsomely as Dennis Miller and David Brock were.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
42. Ta Nehisi Coates celebrates 9/11 responders dying
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 03:04 AM
Jan 2016

This man is a fraud. He has this to say about the 9/11 responders who died:

There is a Manichaean tone to some of the passages in this book, and at times, a hazardous tendency to generalize. After Sept. 11, he writes that he could “see no difference between the officer” who had gunned down his Howard University schoolmate Prince Jones a year earlier — firing 16 shots at the unarmed young man, who was on his way to visit his fiancée — and the police and firefighters who lost their own lives in the terrorist attacks: “They were not human to me. Black, white, or whatever, they were menaces of nature; they were the fire, the comet, the storm, which could — with no justification — shatter my body.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/books/review-in-between-the-world-and-me-ta-nehisi-coates-delivers-a-desperate-dispatch-to-his-son.html?_r=0

The emperor has no clothes, but many are fooled by his nonsense.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
43. Sounds like he heard from Team Bernie. Wonder if they threatened to sue?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 03:06 AM
Jan 2016

It's a thoughtful piece but it reads like somebody told him he had to include standard issue anti-Clinton / anti-Obama memes or else. Sad.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
44. I'm pretty bored with the hypocrisy from those
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:01 AM
Jan 2016

that abandoned full employment policies. You can't have it both ways. I wonder sometimes if this garbage is based on something else such as his religion because this line of attack singling out Sanders seems disingenuous on its face. He has a great record on civil rights and never talks in dog whistles. All this does is turns people off from the Democratic Party.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
51. That's not a response to the topic at hand, I don't think HRC will be coporate rule...
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:21 AM
Jan 2016

... and don't care too address CTs or anything close.

TNC didn't call Sanders a revolutionary, Sanders did

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
54. I think the main problem is that Bernie is already far to the left of anyone else in the race.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 07:28 AM
Jan 2016

Which means he's fighting a deadly battle against ingrained propaganda about the evils of socialism. The reason things like the reparations thing worry me is that its part of a larger push by some groups to push an already far left candidate even further to the left. There's only so far that push can go before he becomes unelectable.

That's why I don't buy into Coates argument about the 'chosen name'. If he's implying that Sanders is already more positive on racial issues than Clinton, then trying to undermine his support because he can't support reparations just means he's likely to end up with a Dem candidate less likely to do positive things. I don't see how that constitutes progress.

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
59. I appreciate the clarification.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 09:07 AM
Jan 2016

Still disagree on the general tone and nature of a lot of what he's saying, but that's o.k. He's a great writer and a valuable voice for a large segment of this country. I don't always have to agree with everyone about everything all of the time.

Vinca

(50,278 posts)
60. Here's the Reader's Digest version of this piece:
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 09:12 AM
Jan 2016

Coates supports Hillary and if you aren't a crazy white leftie, you should, too.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
66. "Support our dreams and then sit down and be quiet. Eventually our dreams will trickle down
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:17 AM
Jan 2016

to benefit you in some way, too."

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
72. Ask Hillary
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:50 AM
Jan 2016

Maybe ask her why she supported a crime bill that incarcerated millions of african americans and destroyed their dreams as well.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
73. Is the crime bill you are alluding to...
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:53 AM
Jan 2016
Maybe ask her why she supported a crime bill that incarcerated millions of african americans and destroyed their dreams as well.



Is the crime bill you are alluding to the one signed by the independent senator from Vermont?


Thank you in advance.


Respectfully,
DSB

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
74. One of their statements predicted the outcome...
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:01 AM
Jan 2016

Bernie:

"...But it is also my view that through the neglect of our Government and through a grossly irrational set of priorities, we are dooming tens of millions of young people to a future of bitterness, misery, hopelessness, drugs, crime, and violence. And Mr. Speaker, all the jails in the world, and we already imprison more people per capita than any other country, and all of the executions in the world, will not make that situation right. We can either educate or electrocute. We can create meaningful jobs, rebuilding our society, or we can build more jails. Mr. Speaker, let us create a society of hope and compassion, not one of hate and vengeance."


Hillary:
"With respect to the crime bill, I think as more Americans focus on the fact the this bill would have put more police on the street; would have locked up violent offenders so they would never have gotten out again; would have made more prison construction money available to the states as well as the federal government."

"It's a very well-thought-out crime bill."


Let's not forget "Welfare reform" which disproportionately affected minorities of which Hillary voted for, and Bernie against.

Hillary:
"Since we first asked mothers to move from welfare to work, millions of families have made the transition from dependency to dignity."


Bernie:
"The bill, which combines an assault on the poor, women and children, minorities, and immigrants is the grand slam of scapegoating legislation, and appeals to the frustrations and ignorance of the American people along a wide spectrum of prejudices."


It's pretty clear who is looking out for minorities.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
75. The Vermont independent made a speech...
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:08 AM
Jan 2016

The Vermont independent made a flowery speech to deride the bill and then voted for it. I would also respectfully submit you are ignoring Mr. Coates' thesis that both Hillary Clinton and the Vermont independent can be pragmatic and while one is pragmatic on just about every issue, the other is a pragmatist of convenience or when the issues fall outside of his political orbit.

I humbly suggest another reading of Mr. Coate's article is in order.


Respectfully,
DSB

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
77. Bernie is pragmatic on many issues
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jan 2016

The idea that he is a radical is stuff floated by the desperate Hillary campaign. People have explained time and time again what he means by "revolutionary" it does not mean supporting wildly impractical legislation with little support in America.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
80. " Bernie is pragmatic on many issues..."
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:23 AM
Jan 2016
" Bernie is pragmatic on many issues..."


Thank you for that concession. To which Mr. Coates and I would ask what are the conditions that causes his pragmatism to manifest itself.

Why are the dreams of some dearer than the dreams of others?






ram2008

(1,238 posts)
81. Where has Bernie said dreams of some more important than others?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:32 AM
Jan 2016

If you don't see how universal healthcare and free public college tuition will help everyone achieve their dreams, then I don't know what to tell you.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
82. His own words
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:38 AM
Jan 2016
Where has Bernie said dreams of some more important than others?



His own words suggest his plan is tantamount to a dream:


Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) reminded the progressive media gathered on Capitol Hill today that single-payer health care reform was dead before it started in the Senate.

"It would have had 8 or 10 votes and that's it," he said, addressing a topic central in the minds of many who the bloggers and left wing talk show hosts gathered for the 4th annual Senate Democratic Progressive Media Summit in Washington reach everyday.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
83. This precisely ties into his revolution rhetoric
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:10 PM
Jan 2016

Having the poor, disenfranchised, and those who would normally not come out to vote defeat the corporate candidates, and deliver a sweeping victory in the Presidency and the Congress, demanding single payer. Again, not seeing how that implies dreams of others are more important. It is the dream of everyone-- which is why it is called UNIVERSAL healthcare.

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
85. What if ones revolution includes complete nuclear disarmament, or getting rid of all taxes?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:14 PM
Jan 2016

Bernie's revolution doesn't include that. We've already explained what he means by revolution.

ram2008

(1,238 posts)
92. And its a silly argument. I guess candidates can't have agendas then, huh?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:41 PM
Jan 2016

Weird. I guess its bad that Bernie is crushing some conservatives dreams opposing the deportation of 11 million "illegals" then?

aikoaiko

(34,172 posts)
70. Although deserved, its not so clear to me that reparations would end white supremacy.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:39 AM
Jan 2016

as TNC asserts.

Can you explain it? Would write supremacy end if every African American received 1 million dollars?

I'm not saying reparations aren't deserved, but how do they end white supremacy? If its just about having resources, it reduces racism to classism.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
87. So unless they don't completely end white supremacy, they shouldn't be done at all?
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:19 PM
Jan 2016

Reparations, as you know, are very complicated and not as simple as giving every black person a check. Many people, including Coates, have looked at this issue and are exploring all kinds of options and possibilities related to your questions. Here's a link to Coates' piece, "The Case for Reparations." http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

Prof. Charles Ogletree has also written in depth on this topic: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/crcl/vol38_2/ogletree.pdf

Congressman Conyers has proposed legislation that would create a commission to study reparations. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/hr40

I'd like to get your thoughts after you've read these pieces.

aikoaiko

(34,172 posts)
91. I think you misunderstood my question.
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:39 PM
Jan 2016

I do understand that there are different models targeting black lives with policies that improve their financial well-being, but that doesn't necessarily mean that white supremacy will change let alone end anymore than with a more general class-based approach.

I haven't seen those dots connected in ways that are separate from improving the lives of all poor people.

Or let me ask this question, how does keeping poor whites, Hispanics, and Asians poor relative to poor blacks who would be helps by reparations help end white supremacy?

I thank you for the references. I have read Coatse' Case for Reparations and Conyers' Study of Reparations bill before.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
86. And on cue the dudebros throw Coates under the bus:
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 12:16 PM
Jan 2016

His TL is full of smears and conspiracy wingnuttery -- https://twitter.com/tanehisicoates

Anybody want to inform these assholes that they need votes to win a goddamned election and that burning bridges isn't going to help??

jonestonesusa

(880 posts)
109. Disagreement with an argument is
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:24 PM
Jan 2016

different from throwing someone under the bus. Political thought expressed publicly is subject to challenge. I suspect Coates understands this. So should you.

jonestonesusa

(880 posts)
111. You can curse and deflect and all you want.
Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:32 PM
Jan 2016

It's possible to read Coates' article and disagree with iits conclusions about the Sanders platform. Nothing more, nothing less. Personally I will keep reading at least some of Coates's work because my interest in black political thought and left political movements is lifelong. But Coates' critique of the Sanders campaign is off point, short on discussion of the actual policy positions advocated by Sanders and overly focused on reparations as the primary issue for a pro-black agenda. And you have a different view. So be it. BTW I read through some of the TL as well. Lots of callouts, some racist, some responding to the suspiciously timed publication of this critique of Sanders, etc. I abhor racism and respect dialogue, but unfortunately, being a prominent black intellectual means getting plenty of both.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
106. Who is doing the talking matters...
Mon Jan 25, 2016, 05:00 PM
Jan 2016

Coates is a rank hypocrite and a bourgeois Black liberal/libertarian opportunist of the highest order. He is also either very confused or a complete moron when it comes to class-analysis and what that actually means from a leftist perspective. Coates is no leftist and his attempted critique of liberals while firmly embedded in the liberal camp is beyond laughable. This clown couldn't find working class solidarity with a road map.

"Class-based remedies are a band-aid." I'm quite sure Coates has a problem with "class-based remedies' being a member of the 1% and all. LMFAO



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