2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHere’s a Big Problem With Sanders' Health care plan: It sounds great, there's no way he can deliver
Heres One Big Problem With The Bernie Sanders Plan For Health Care Utopia
It sounds great, but there's no way he can deliver.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-health-plan_us_569ff110e4b076aadcc50807
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To help pay for his plans unprecedented benefits, Sanders proposes to extract unprecedented savings from the health care system. Here is where the details get fuzzy and hard to accept at face value, even beyond the usual optimistic assumptions that figure into campaign proposals. Sanders expects a large portion of the savings to come from reductions in administrative waste, because insurance billing would basically end. Another big chunk would come from squeezing the industries that produce health care services and supplies -- and squeezing those industries hard.
That last part should set off alarm bells for anybody who remembers the fight to pass the Affordable Care Act. Two particular episodes from 2009 -- one widely publicized, one barely noticed -- are a reminder of how much power those groups wield in Washington. For Sanders to realize his vision for single-payer health care, hed have to overcome even greater resistance than Obamacares architects faced. And Sanders has offered no reason to think he could do that, which is something Democratic voters might want to keep in mind.
Two Lessons from Obamacare
The first and better-known episode from 2009 was the battle over the public option -- a proposal, crafted by Yale political scientist Jacob Hacker, to create a government-run insurance plan that would compete with private insurers for customers. Hacker and others figured the public option could dictate lower payment rates to suppliers and providers of medical care, just like Medicare does, thereby keeping premiums low and forcing private insurers to match them.
Voters liked the idea, according to polls, and experts had certified that it would save the government money. But it ran into huge opposition -- not just from insurers, who didnt want the competition, but from doctors, makers of drugs and medical devices, and hospitals, all of whom understood the proposal would cut into their revenue.
House Democratic leaders had to weaken the proposal significantly, reducing the public options ability to force down health care prices, in order to pass it. Even that compromise couldnt get it through the Senate, where Joe Lieberman, then an independent senator from Connecticut, spoke out against the public option and many Democrats, including a few liberals, quietly cheered him on.
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... the only way we could get single payer passed is if we had control of BOTH the House and the SEnate. That would be quite a feat to pull-off.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Let the Republicans have the country, no reason to fight for anything anymore.
Woe is us.
Human101948
(3,457 posts)Defeatism is us!
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:41 PM - Edit history (1)
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)(may the alerter enjoy their alerting vacay)
Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Mon Jan 25, 2016, 05:21 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Let's all just give up and stay home in November
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1064715
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Stay at home so the Republicans can win the White House? This is a trollish post that a Republican would post and it doesn't belong on DU.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jan 25, 2016, 05:26 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: omg. sarcasm. heard of it? let me help you..."Sarcasm is the use of irony to mock or convey contempt." <--straight from the dictionary.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It seems that he forgot the sarcasm tag.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am hoping the poster is just engaging in hyperbole
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Beam Me Up adds nothing to the discussion as usual....but this isn't a serious post. Just a pat response from the Bernie Bots.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alert stalking. Pathetic.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's called sarcasm...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It's actually pretty smart if you're an alert stalker, alert on enough posts and eventually you get lucky.
Unfortunately that one didn't choose wisely.
Second 7-0 result on one of my posts today.
Thanks jury!
draa
(975 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Thank you for that.
draa
(975 posts)It's very telling what's going on but I won't be silenced.
edit: link to Jury decision is below.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511054538#post21
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It's being coordinated offsite, we've seen the evidence, I've had up to 5 alerts on my posts in one night.
At least the jurors got it right on your op.
Bill USA
(6,436 posts)win an election or primary it seems you should be able to defend your candidates positions. You seem to be conceding Cohn's point that Bernie is promising something he knows he can't deliver.
BTW, I did not alert on your cmnt 1.
MerryBlooms
(11,770 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)Bill USA
(6,436 posts)in general, I prefer to ridicule those who post 'twit' comments and let the comment stay there to expose the quality of the thought process of the commenter - rather than alert. - unless they are really stupid and offensive.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I wonder if they realize that's how Republicans have been referring to liberal ideas for decades?
That's who they sound like when they oppose the left.
Bill USA
(6,436 posts)will work?
riversedge
(70,242 posts)gets the Dem nomination
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Say it ain't so PUMAs!
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)Other people say it's because you don't have wings or jets or any other way to generate lift, but it's really just a motivation problem. Send $5 and recieve POWERFUL lesson.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Send us your money and just get over it.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)What's not to get excited about?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Definite feeling of deja moo here, I've heard this bull before.
Human101948
(3,457 posts)got to scrap that shit right off you shoes!
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)He's so predictable that I have a game where I finish his sentences in the debates.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)our country making single payer, universal healthcare an issue for our consideration.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)that would rather not have everything just right. Isn't utopia our goal? Isn't utopia the end game of all who practice Christianity? I thought utopia was to be strived for. What am I missing here?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Who cares if a plan will actually work? The unicorns will take care of it. (except when it comes to reparations -- unicorns have their limits).
Old Codger
(4,205 posts)Gotta start somewhere..... Quitting sure as hell won't get it done, so you go ahead, I am going with Bernie and at least go down trying
Cal33
(7,018 posts)a fine team. They could pull it off in two or four years. Then things will really
start popping.
Edit: Don't forget, not only Democrats, but many Republicans are totally fed-up
with the status quo. Too many of us want change, and we intend to get it.
Bernie and Liz will press this home - loud, clear and often!!
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)That's how elections usually go in the US, right? People turn out at mid-terms to support the incumbent president in inverse proportion to the amount of stuff s/he gets done. True fact.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)Dems. are trying to enact into law for the benefit of the American people.
Both Bernie and Liz will explain what the people will be losing if the bill
did not get through - and the Repubs. are doing it to them. Just make
sure that these people will not be elected the next time. Name names.
and explain exactly what they are doing, and why.
Do the same thing in the House of Representatives. One of Obama's
habits is to say little or nothing. The Main Stream Media, being 90%
Republican owned, certainly says nothing. Well, Bernie and Liz will
be different. They will make it known - loud and clear - who is robbing
the people of their rights and helping the corporate power people to
get richer and have more power -- and it's at the expense of the
American people. The Repubs. are doing this to them.
When repeated often enough, you can be sure that even the dumbest
people will sooner or later catch on. I'd say there is a good chance
that the Repubs. will lose many of their members in Congress.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Is not realistic. We watched and wrote our congressional members but the single payer would not pass. It may surprise some to know Medicare has had several improvements over the yeas as SS has had also. It would be silly to repeal ACA and hope then to pass some other plan. Improve ACA, enhance it as much as possible, elect more Democrats and then go for single payer. It would be like planning a very long car trip with ten gallons of gas.
aidbo
(2,328 posts)If the first step of this long car trip is to go to the gas station to pick up more gas, there's no problem.
Also planning for most very long car trips would presumably include stops for gas.
It should go without saying that the existing system would not be "dismantled" (-Chelsea Clinton) before having the replacement system in place.
Yes, it would be silly. That's why no one is suggesting we should do that.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)60 times but they forget to add replace.
Yes on a car trip there would be expected to have gas stops but I am still waiting to see where his gas stops are planned.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)He's not ever suggested that we repeal the ACA FIRST. It stays as we move toward a more inclusive and less expensive single-payer plan.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)..."and hope then to pass some other plan".
Please link to any reputable source claiming that would be the sequence of events in a Sanders presidency.
Do you really think that Sanders would repeal the ACA first, then try and pass something more comprehensive?
You do realize he has been in Congress, first as a Representative and then as a Senator, for over 25 years, right? You do realize that he knows how things work in those organizations, right? You do realize that he has been a proponent of universal health care since he began his political career, right? You do realize that he served on the committee that drafted the ACA, right? and that he added the provision for community health clinics, right? and that he voted for it, right?
In other words your dishonest framing DOES NOT represent reality in any way, shape or form. It is EXACTLY the sort of framing tactics that the right wing uses. You think that by slipping in that sort of language you can convince readers that Sanders will stupidly repeal the ACA before having something else in place, thus relieving millions of people of their health insurance. Which is, of course, COMPLETE AND UTTER HORSE SHIT. And it is exactly the sort of dishonest discussion that Chelsea Clinton got reamed for.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...and truth is truth.
If you will be so kind as to change your DISHONEST remarks, I will edit my response.
Until then...
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)But, you won't.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)I understand all the whatevers about healthcare, I have great doubts the Medicare for all will happen until after we can stack Congress with Democrats, this is the part many do not understand. I am on Medicare, it is not free, there is a premium, I also purchase a Medigap policy because of the high co-pays, Medicare pays 80%, one hospital stay is more than the Medigap policy for a year. Sanders is not on Medicare, he probably does not understand in pushing for Medicare for all. No, ACA is not perfect, neither is Medicare, lots of improvements have happened in Medicare. Reality is the present make up of Congress is not going to allow for Medicare for all, I don't doubt it will take longer than Sanders and I are alive to get the single payer system working, there is not a present path for Medicare for all now and until we can stack the Congress.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)I'm curious as to the "whatevers" that you know about Medicare. It's obvious that it has administrative costs, and when compared to private insurance? You purchase Medigap INSURANCE with high co-pays, so you are still using the insurance model of what will be covered. Have you really looked into this?
Sanders, who helped congressionally with the ACA, when it was obvious that the Democrats did not WANT to entertain the public option knows about Medicare. Yet, you're willing to say he "probably does not understand". You're perfectly fine with those blinders. So, since you're going with that wrongful assumption because you want to, tell me... Why, when we stacked Congress with Democrats before didn't this happen?
Nothing is free. So, who's being disingenuous here? Medicare is not perfect, and the changes as outlined in Medicare for All is the best way to address those loop holes. Sanders came out with it, Hillary Clinton or MOM have not shared similar, but YOU are willing to dismiss it.
Who's being disingenuous and nasty here?
Head in sand feel good?
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Providing a pathway has not happened. Don't continue your sharks, it does not explain a pathway.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)... Excuse me, but are you attempting to explain something again about how close Congress has come to providing a public option? You DO remember that the majority of Americans supported it, don't you?
"Don't continue your sharks"... Sorry, but I'm going to take a guess that this is your perception of being given what-for. You'll forgive me, I'm sure for not understanding what that means.
On edit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1071488
Just in case you feel like your don't want to look at the numbers all totaled up for you. If that hurts to look at, rest a while and try it again.
Vinca
(50,276 posts)How many years will it take for big insurance to get rates back up to what they were prior to the ACA? I say 5 years and that's optimistic.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah.... They don't wish to hear it.
This won't help, either....
Or, this....
So, I'm done with the willful ignorance and nasty responses. They should just admit they DON'T WISH TO KNOW.
Until they need to know, that is.
ypsfonos
(144 posts)I'll bet your jaw will be on the floor too!
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)Nanjeanne
(4,960 posts). . .
still waiting for it
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)We're thinking long term.
AT THE END of a Bernie Sanders Presidency we expect to be MUCH closer to being able to enact single payer in this country. Bernie will get to appoint a DNC Party Chairperson. We expect THAT Chairperson to recruit and fund progressive Democrats and not "pro-business"/3rd Way approved Democrats. We believe they CAN win as evidenced by how strong Bernie is polling in Iowa and New Hampshire. Those are not super liberal states generally. They are regarded as Battleground states.
Bernie's success with his campaign has EXPLODED the lie that the Establishment continues to shovel down our throats. That is what is so brilliant about this campaign. The people LIKE his policies.
A Hillary Presidency will get us NOWHERE closer to single payer than we are today. DWS, or someone like her, would be Party Chair and they would continue to recruit Banker approved Democrats for office. After a Hillary Presidency we will be right where we are now, and many of the same people will be saying "No We Can't" because we hadn't even begun to shift the Congress to be more favorable to the policies that we want enacted.
We HAVE to start building a better Congress one day. A Bernie Presidency would be a huge step in the right direction.
You are doing the insurance companies work for them. Keeping those expectations WAY down and not doing anything to begin to correct the situation we are in. We would go nowhere fast your way. Just as the insurance companies want.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)It sucks. I'll take my chances with Sanders
jeff47
(26,549 posts)We are not going to give up just because we can't get it in the next two.
DJ13
(23,671 posts).... is because they are so conservative the current GOP cant say no to them.
Is that what we really want from a Democrat in the WH?
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)would be automatically rejected from single payer Medicare for All,
there suddenly would be a tsunami of believers! And it would get done.
It will get done, regardless of people's religious beliefs.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Even if Bernie could accomplish little, he will appoint great judges that work for the people, and he will veto the corporatist crap.
draa
(975 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)It is getting soooooooooooo predictable.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)K&R
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...it's part of his ideas, but not the center by a long shot. The center is removing the barrier of money and greed in politics to open the path for progress. Right now we have so many bought and paid for politicians that nothing can happen. So, you're right, this probably wouldn't pass under the way things are currently...but I trust Senator Sanders to call out the BS and deal with the rampant corruption in our political system, because he isn't part of it.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)'Single-payer is the only health reform that pays for itself'
non-partisan Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP) http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511052189
and THIS
Elizabeth Warren: Anyone Who Says Change Is Just Too Hard Is in Bed With the Billionaires
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1064813
polly7
(20,582 posts)Iggy Knorr
(247 posts)mike_c
(36,281 posts)So let's just not try. Gee, I wonder who benefits from the current rigged health care system in this country?
on edit: I'll vote for the candidate who wants to at least try to end for-profit health care. The one who gives up and says it's too hard because they're in the back pockets of the private insurance industry won't get my vote.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Myrina
(12,296 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)... If facts didn't get in the way then, why should they now with this hit piece?
It's poorly referenced. If you're going to write about the healthcare delivery system, then you should understand how it has performed from the inception of fee-for-service models of the 1960's, prospective payment system of the 1980's and capitative per-member managed care "evolution" that led us to non-negotiated insurance and pharmaceutical coverage as outlined in their presently fucked-up tier system, especially after Medicare's Part D that left so many people in the donut hole.
The cost of this "evolved" system will increase another 6 trillion dollars over the next 10 years. I don't think the job market and bad health outcomes that prevail in our working population can sustain that, nor the 29 million people who still have NO health care insurance. We need a system that covers everybody.
The numbers outlined in Sander's Medicare for All SAVE lives and improve outcomes. The working class is not able to save a dime under this current "evolution", even after ACA, which is better for some people, but still give you the scenario above.
So, who the hell is this shill kidding?
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)"I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth. " - President Kennedy, May 25, 1961
Fast forward to HRC campaign 01/26/16...."No, we can't."
moondust
(19,991 posts)And then compromise it away.
Good plan.
Beacool
(30,250 posts)Whereby very liberal Democrats are going to become the majority in Congress and pass Sanders' agenda.