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kennetha

(3,666 posts)
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:17 PM Feb 2016

Why Can't Sanders Supporters admit he's a Socialist?

There seems to be some reluctance to do so on the part of many. The say he's really just an old-fashion liberal democrat in the FDR, Truman mode rather than a DLC style democrat.

But that's not how Sanders has presented himself throughout his long career. He seems like a sincere, authentic, and proud Socialist.

I know the word has some negative valences with some. But you can't combat those negative valences by saying that well he's not really a socialist. The way to combat those negative valances would be to own the word and explain the approach.

I take it that's what Sanders is trying to do. His supporters -- at least those on this board -- seem less inclined to own the label.

170 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why Can't Sanders Supporters admit he's a Socialist? (Original Post) kennetha Feb 2016 OP
I'll admit it. Cheese Sandwich Feb 2016 #1
Me too, FDR too, and that Republican Teddy too !!!! orpupilofnature57 Feb 2016 #5
Well, I think FDR's Economic Bill of Rights started to get pretty close to socialism, and that's Cheese Sandwich Feb 2016 #15
Off Topic question kristopher Feb 2016 #88
No, that was his/her brother Ham. nt tblue37 Feb 2016 #135
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #97
I think there are other ideas of socialism besides the state owning everything Cheese Sandwich Feb 2016 #146
ALL socialism EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #147
Well there's no sense arguing over definitions of words Cheese Sandwich Feb 2016 #153
I will proudly admit it!!! Armymedic88 Feb 2016 #2
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #106
You don't seem to know what socialist means. cui bono Feb 2016 #3
He's a socialist by his own self-declaration kennetha Feb 2016 #12
why do you intentionally Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #17
interesting how that was left out of the op. nt restorefreedom Feb 2016 #36
yes it is Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #43
indeed. nt restorefreedom Feb 2016 #58
a wild guess: Karma13612 Feb 2016 #78
Trolling for hearts Change has come Feb 2016 #156
Yes, you just said, he's a 'democratic socialist'. cui bono Feb 2016 #24
Thank you. Saved me the trouble...and did it every well, I might add. libdem4life Feb 2016 #44
" He's not a communist, that's to be sure. " pangaia Feb 2016 #80
he's a democratic socialist. DesertFlower Feb 2016 #4
Apparently, most of the nation is once they realize what it means. Fawke Em Feb 2016 #28
i agree. nt DesertFlower Feb 2016 #34
yep! This is what Bernie calls himself dana_b Feb 2016 #73
Means of Production tm1323 Feb 2016 #6
he believes in the Nordic Model EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #98
Why can't Hillary supporters admit ... ThePhilosopher04 Feb 2016 #7
+1, a moderate republican. JRLeft Feb 2016 #19
They dissappeared in the 90s with Bob Dole bravenak Feb 2016 #161
If she were a registered republican at least we'd have some sanity on the other side of the aisle. JRLeft Feb 2016 #162
No shit. Except that she'd still be running. bravenak Feb 2016 #163
If she won it wouldn't be the end of the world. JRLeft Feb 2016 #164
Better than that terror crew running on the other side. bravenak Feb 2016 #165
THE GOP is a terrorist organization. JRLeft Feb 2016 #166
The Klean KKK is what they are bravenak Feb 2016 #167
Same difference. JRLeft Feb 2016 #168
So true bravenak Feb 2016 #170
because she's not. i'm supporting DesertFlower Feb 2016 #20
She's been acting like a Republican since her Arkansas days Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #137
you're entitled to your opinion. DesertFlower Feb 2016 #157
I lived in Arkansas during that time Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #158
i think those of you who continue to trash her DesertFlower Feb 2016 #159
She strikes me as a pro-choice Republican farleftlib Feb 2016 #26
She's an economic conservative and a social liberal (sort of) nt kristopher Feb 2016 #83
Her husband was one of the best Republican presidents boobooday Feb 2016 #138
Me too, both times farleftlib Feb 2016 #145
She's admitted she's "kinda moderate and center"... PoliticAverse Feb 2016 #30
that's a low blow sexist smear Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #45
Because she's not. Beacool Feb 2016 #63
Because then THEY would have to admit that they are too? Ferd Berfel Feb 2016 #91
Well he really IS just an old fashioed liberal Democrat, but if it makes you happy NorthCarolina Feb 2016 #8
There are many flavors of "socialist." According to the GOP, Obama is a flaming radical socialist. Armstead Feb 2016 #9
lol LWolf Feb 2016 #10
look just above and below in this thread. kennetha Feb 2016 #14
If you ask a question LWolf Feb 2016 #61
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #108
then he is awfully confused kennetha Feb 2016 #121
Form your link EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #125
You should be upset with your man kennetha Feb 2016 #126
I know the difference LWolf Feb 2016 #134
Because he isn't. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2016 #11
I admit he is a democratic socialist Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #13
Is this a joke? H2O Man Feb 2016 #16
I admit it. So am I. dchill Feb 2016 #18
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #99
Most definitions I've seen don't include the STATE. immoderate Feb 2016 #154
Right. H2O Man Feb 2016 #160
Because he does not identify as a Socialist. He identifies as a Democratic Socialist. Luminous Animal Feb 2016 #21
Why is it "red baiting" to say Bernie is a Socialist? redstateblues Feb 2016 #22
I'm a socialist so why wouldn't I admit it madokie Feb 2016 #23
ask karma13612 kennetha Feb 2016 #39
Because he isn't. Karma13612 Feb 2016 #25
you disagree with hoosierlib below, I take it. kennetha Feb 2016 #32
Because there is a stigma leftover from the Cold War, but... hoosierlib Feb 2016 #27
half of Sanders supporters kennetha Feb 2016 #29
Either because of the stigma (i.e. they are older than 45) or they don't know the definition... hoosierlib Feb 2016 #35
We're not in denial. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2016 #90
It isn't strange when people are trying to distort the meaning. kristopher Feb 2016 #128
Paging Sen McCarthy, paging Sen McCarthy, red-baiting courtesy telephone please. HooptieWagon Feb 2016 #31
red-baiting? How so? kennetha Feb 2016 #33
you know Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #49
Most traditional socialists do not view Sanders as a socialist. plus5mace Feb 2016 #37
I've been looking for weaknesses in Bernie's economic plan Gregorian Feb 2016 #50
I think he is really more of a social democrat kennetha Feb 2016 #55
Bookmarked. jen63 Feb 2016 #131
That is pie in the sky redstateblues Feb 2016 #84
That's the spirit. Gregorian Feb 2016 #148
+1 Wig Master Feb 2016 #62
Republicans have done a great job of scaring the American people. Gregorian Feb 2016 #38
More made up nonsense. We do. He's a Democratic Socialist. Happy? cali Feb 2016 #40
See his reply 55. jen63 Feb 2016 #133
Democratic Socialist. There's a difference Arazi Feb 2016 #41
Democratic Socialism kennetha Feb 2016 #51
Lol, you obviously haven't listened to his speech on this Arazi Feb 2016 #59
There's more than one way to achieve it. Gregorian Feb 2016 #82
It is not EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #101
Why can't Hillary admit she's a corporatist? cali Feb 2016 #42
Depends on which group she's speaking to. libdem4life Feb 2016 #57
Yes. Also which day of the 840high Feb 2016 #86
Because he is a Democratic socialist Rocky the Leprechaun Feb 2016 #46
Get back to me on this after he calls for the nationalization of banks n/t Tom Rinaldo Feb 2016 #47
He is. hifiguy Feb 2016 #48
these are becoming Home Depot™ posts... islandmkl Feb 2016 #52
He's a socialist Kalidurga Feb 2016 #53
Technically, from my research he fits the profile of social democrat Bread and Circus Feb 2016 #54
Hillary's barely to the to the left of Nixon....why can't she admit she's a republican? Indepatriot Feb 2016 #56
He's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #60
EdwardBernays meet grntuscarora kennetha Feb 2016 #67
grntuscarora is wrong EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #71
I'm happy to defer to EdwardBernays. grntuscarora Feb 2016 #87
me too! EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #95
I hear ya! grntuscarora Feb 2016 #100
He's a socialist. grntuscarora Feb 2016 #64
grntuscarora meet EdwardBernays kennetha Feb 2016 #68
kennetha, you're so cute when you miss the point. grntuscarora Feb 2016 #75
I think he's trolling EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #103
Agreed. grntuscarora Feb 2016 #109
smart EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #111
From a socialist point of view, okasha Feb 2016 #65
This narrative works better with low info voters Z_California Feb 2016 #69
Sanders' narrative? okasha Feb 2016 #74
More intellectually dishonest fun with words from an HRC supporter. Z_California Feb 2016 #85
As long as his image does not include war, the TPP, cluster bombs, fracking, and increased djean111 Feb 2016 #72
So you're okay okasha Feb 2016 #81
That does not outweigh war, the TPP, fracking, etc. djean111 Feb 2016 #93
That is war and the TPP. okasha Feb 2016 #119
When has he supported a wall like Trump? Goblinmonger Feb 2016 #143
Fun with words Z_California Feb 2016 #66
I'm for Bernie OkSustainAg Feb 2016 #70
Because he's a Democratic Socialist. Fucking educate yourself. But you knew that of course.+ HERVEPA Feb 2016 #76
Because he is not. pangaia Feb 2016 #77
Here you go - Democratic Socialism - straight from Bernie's mouth: dana_b Feb 2016 #79
Before he decided to run he called himself a Socialist redstateblues Feb 2016 #113
I am glad that Jenny_92808 Feb 2016 #89
The implication of this thread Z_California Feb 2016 #92
Imagine...we're growing up as a nation. libdem4life Feb 2016 #120
Because that word has such a negative stigma to it Blueguyinthesky Feb 2016 #94
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #104
I had a pro-Hillary friend say that to me. Its better than a repub pretending to be a Democrat. RiverLover Feb 2016 #96
That's not socialism EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #105
You say socialist as if that is a bad thing.....j bowens43 Feb 2016 #102
Who says we don't? Cleita Feb 2016 #107
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #110
You need to tell that to Bernie kennetha Feb 2016 #112
He doesn't EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #116
No that's communism that owns the means of production. Cleita Feb 2016 #117
no EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #122
I know that terms are being parsed differently to suit various ideals but Cleita Feb 2016 #127
a kibbutz EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #130
A kibbutz is communist not socialist. Cleita Feb 2016 #140
Communism vs socialism EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #144
The Marxists got it wrong by trying to make into a type of government. Cleita Feb 2016 #149
He is a Social Democrat. There is a difference, check yodermon Feb 2016 #114
The Right will use the term ''Socialist" the way they've demonize ''Liberal". YOHABLO Feb 2016 #115
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #118
Probably because... Mike Nelson Feb 2016 #123
Happy to acknowledge it matt819 Feb 2016 #124
he's not a socialist EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #132
Ok. But matt819 Feb 2016 #155
Because he isnt AgingAmerican Feb 2016 #129
Two words Blue_In_AK Feb 2016 #136
Because he isn't? jeff47 Feb 2016 #139
I am far deeper left than Bernie Sanders. Half-Century Man Feb 2016 #141
Some great information on what democratic/ nordic/socialism buys you. kristopher Feb 2016 #142
Why can't you admit you're desperately flinging crap to see what sticks? hobbit709 Feb 2016 #150
Because it's a word without any clear definition. cheapdate Feb 2016 #151
Eugene Victor Debs was a socialist. no_hypocrisy Feb 2016 #152
Because those that are not trying to smear him understand the definition of socialist and rhett o rick Feb 2016 #169
 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
1. I'll admit it.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:18 PM
Feb 2016

He may be a socialist but so what?

His policies are mainstream progressive policies, nothing too weird.

Socialism is awesome.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
15. Well, I think FDR's Economic Bill of Rights started to get pretty close to socialism, and that's
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:23 PM
Feb 2016

where Bernie is planting his flag. I'm more of a socialist but this is close enough. I'm thrilled. Bernie is really opening doors for the conversation on socialism.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
88. Off Topic question
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:04 PM
Feb 2016

Have you ever had an over-zealous prosecutor arrange to have you indicted by a grand jury?

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
97. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:11 PM
Feb 2016

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
146. I think there are other ideas of socialism besides the state owning everything
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:17 PM
Feb 2016

Democratic socialism can mean a bunch of different things.

The election isn't about theories anyway, it's about practical policies and his policies certainly are mainstream American ideas.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
147. ALL socialism
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:19 PM
Feb 2016

Has a feature social ownership. Full stop.

Democratic Socialists do not believe in social ownership.

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
153. Well there's no sense arguing over definitions of words
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:35 PM
Feb 2016

Depends what you mean my social ownership.

That could be implemented in a lot of different ways, with a lot of different mixes and combinations of government ownership, community control, and worker control.


These are some readings I'm drawing on for my understanding:

http://www.dsausa.org/toward_freedom

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/dsausa/pages/440/attachments/original/1372712435/Introductory_Readings_on_Democratic_Socialist_Theory_and_Practice.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism


It's OK if you have a different understanding than me on these definitions. I'd be interested to see what readings you are drawing on to arrive at your understanding.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
106. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:17 PM
Feb 2016

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
3. You don't seem to know what socialist means.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:19 PM
Feb 2016

He is not a socialist. He does not advocate the govt taking over the means of production. He is not against regulated capitalism.

He IS for programs such as social security and he IS for govt regulation. That is Democratic Socialism, which is how he describes himself.

Now that you know, you can stop playing your little less than 'artful smear' games.

.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
12. He's a socialist by his own self-declaration
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:22 PM
Feb 2016

He's a democratic socialist. Says as much himself. Why do you deny that? He's not a communist, that's to be sure.

Karma13612

(4,554 posts)
78. a wild guess:
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:58 PM
Feb 2016

the OP just feels bored and wants to stir up stuff.

I fell for it too, but got wise so, on to another diary.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
24. Yes, you just said, he's a 'democratic socialist'.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:30 PM
Feb 2016

Why are you pretending he said something else?

Do you not understand words yet? Or maybe it's numbers that throw you? There are two words in democratic socialist. The word democratic is a qualifier/descriptor. Did you not get that far in school yet? I'm not sure how much to explain to you since I don't know how old you are or what level you have reached in education. You seem to be struggling with very elementary concepts such as descriptors, qualifiers, even basic words and amounts of words.

.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
80. " He's not a communist, that's to be sure. "
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:00 PM
Feb 2016

Well THANK YOU, KENNETH.

I'm glad we have that cleared up.



tm1323

(23 posts)
6. Means of Production
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:20 PM
Feb 2016

I honestly think in the objective sense, Sanders isn't a socialist, regardless of what he calls himself. The central tenant of socialism is government control of the means of production, and that's not Sanders' position. He's much more aligned with syndicalism than he is socialism.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
98. he believes in the Nordic Model
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:12 PM
Feb 2016

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
162. If she were a registered republican at least we'd have some sanity on the other side of the aisle.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 09:26 PM
Feb 2016
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
165. Better than that terror crew running on the other side.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 09:37 PM
Feb 2016

Ted Cruz. That one? Needs to go away forever. He actually groses me out on site. Slimy. Oily. Creepy. Like a park rapist.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
137. She's been acting like a Republican since her Arkansas days
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:48 PM
Feb 2016

Really, the only reason she was a "Democrat" in Arkansas was that she HAD to be, for the sake of her husband's career. In those days especially, it was almost the kiss of death to be a Republican at the state level, or being the governor with an overtly Republican wife. But she did lots of things that were certainly Republican-lite, including working as a corporate lawyer who defended utility companies against ACORN's citizen initiative to reduce electric rates, rubbing shoulders with Sam Walton and Don Tyson, and getting financing for Bill's presidential campaign from Mr. Arkansas Republican himself, Jackson Stephens.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
158. I lived in Arkansas during that time
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 11:33 PM
Feb 2016

She pissed off a lot of liberals during her time there, including several of my professors at the University of Arkansas, and my high school history teacher, who was as dyed-in-the-wool Democrat as you could ever find.

Her stint with as a corporate lawyer in Arkansas is documented, as is her defense of Arkansas utility companies against residential rate-payers, and her rubbing shoulders with Sam Walton on his board while not lifting a finger to help the unionization effort at Walmart.

Now you tell me, would a Democrat do that?

DesertFlower

(11,649 posts)
159. i think those of you who continue to trash her
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 11:38 PM
Feb 2016

are acting like republicans.

the way some of you people act i'm almost ashamed to say i'm a bernie supporter. i don't want any connection with you -- that's why i'm not part of the sanders group.

flame away.

boobooday

(7,869 posts)
138. Her husband was one of the best Republican presidents
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:49 PM
Feb 2016

We've ever had.

I've said that for years and years. And I voted for him twice, but not enthusiastically.

 

farleftlib

(2,125 posts)
145. Me too, both times
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:17 PM
Feb 2016

It's funny because the exact expression you just used "he was one of the best Republican presidents" is something I heard during his second term and it was what finally made me see him clearly. I hadn't realized how many passes I'd given him until the whole picture was put in front of me and I finally had to admit that he was way more to the right than I (and the Democratic Party was.

Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)
91. Because then THEY would have to admit that they are too?
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:06 PM
Feb 2016


THe fascism hasn't been working. Lets try Socialism AGAIN. It worked before

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
8. Well he really IS just an old fashioed liberal Democrat, but if it makes you happy
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:21 PM
Feb 2016

I'll gladly say he's a Socialist". I'll even admit to him being a "Populist", and a "Liberal", and a "Progressive". Satisfied?

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
9. There are many flavors of "socialist." According to the GOP, Obama is a flaming radical socialist.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:21 PM
Feb 2016

When Bernie starts suggesting that all private property be banned, free enterprise capitalism outlawed, and requires that everyone report to a collective workcamp, check back with me.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
10. lol
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:21 PM
Feb 2016

I haven't seen anyone trying to deny that he's a socialist.

Why can't YOU leave the red baiting behind?

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
61. If you ask a question
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:44 PM
Feb 2016

that is, sincerely or disingenuously, blind to the fact that there are different kinds of socialism, and that the "socialist" label used to red bait is not the democratic socialism that Sanders espouses, that's some of what you are going to get.

Or you could acknowledge that Sanders' democratic socialism is not the same thing as stricter, more conventional socialism.

Either way, I don't think any Sanders supporters won't freely acknowledge that he's a DEMOCRATIC socialist.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
108. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:18 PM
Feb 2016

at all

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
125. Form your link
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:34 PM
Feb 2016

'"When Bernie is asked, ‘Are you a socialist?’ he doesn't deny it, and he immediately talks about Scandinavia. He uses them interchangeably. But if you look at his history, he knows the distinction," Schwartz said.'

You can fixate on a word if you want, and you obviously are dishonesty doing just that, but at NO POINT has Sanders EVER advocated for social ownership. Without that there is no socialism - says anyone with more than a passing knowledge of socialism, and Scandinavia, or capitalism, or Bernie Sanders.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
126. You should be upset with your man
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:39 PM
Feb 2016

Almost all posters on this thread are Sanders supporters and you guys are all over the map. He's owned the term. He can't drop it. You can't call it red-baiting to have it pointed out. He has to deal with it. Obviously your side currently has no clue. Denying that he is a socialist will look like the very opposite of authenticity. the guy has been at this for decades. No way around it. I'm not saying the 'socialist' deserves the negative valences it has in some places of our body politic. But it does have them. You're not going to get around them by trying to shout down the use of the word, when the word comes out the candidate's own mouth.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
134. I know the difference
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:47 PM
Feb 2016

between the socialism that you are defining and the democratic socialism that Bernie espouses.

That's my point. The OP is pretending not to know the difference.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
11. Because he isn't.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:22 PM
Feb 2016

He isn't proposing the government nationalize the financial industry, the energy industry, the telecomm industry, and the other sectors vital to national security. Go read some of the ACTUAL socialist websites, and you'll see them sneer at talk of him being a socialist.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
99. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:13 PM
Feb 2016

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
154. Most definitions I've seen don't include the STATE.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:43 PM
Feb 2016

It's the workers or the community owning the means of production that I see most often cited. The state need not even participate. Those systems don't usually allow for capitalism, but Bernie does.

I peg Bernie as a new, new dealer. Democratic socialist means about the same thing.

--imm

H2O Man

(73,602 posts)
160. Right.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 11:46 PM
Feb 2016

The one about state ownership is, of course, from the 1880s, during the industrial revolution. It is still accurate and fits in the context of that long gone time period. It does not fit today. And it in no way applies to Bernie, or the type of socialism that we advocate for today.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
22. Why is it "red baiting" to say Bernie is a Socialist?
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:26 PM
Feb 2016

I see where BSS accuse people of red baiting when they say he is a Socialist. Bernie has called himself a Socialist many times. He only added the word "Democratic" when he started thinking about running.

 

hoosierlib

(710 posts)
27. Because there is a stigma leftover from the Cold War, but...
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:32 PM
Feb 2016

I'll admit, I'm a socialist.

I believe the government has responsibility to regulate the market place in order to ensure fair competition and to protect consumers. I believe that for certain parts of the economy, profit should NOT be the motivating force. This includes education, healthcare, basic utilities (water, power and the internet), transportation and food. I believe in a meritocracy, but at the same time acknowledge that factors like race, ethnicity, income and genetics (medically speaking) are inhibitors to a person's ability to achieve their highest potential (assuming they chose to) and those factors require government intervention / programs in order to mitigate their impact / influence. I also believe that those that benefit the most from our country, should pay the most in taxes. Lastly, I also believe that we should take of our elderly ensuring that they can age without having to struggle poverty and choose between medical care and giving up their home / assets.

If that makes me a socialist, then guilty as charged...

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
90. We're not in denial.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:06 PM
Feb 2016

We're farther left than Sanders. We actually WOULD be socialists in office, not just 'democratic socialists'.

A 'democratic socialist' is a political label. A 'socialist' is an economic label. For all that Sanders might say about 'socialism', he's still a believer in capitalism, albeit a more tightly constrained capitalism. He fits in better with the Scandinavian countries, none of which is a purely socialist country either. They all still have varieties of capitalism.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
128. It isn't strange when people are trying to distort the meaning.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:42 PM
Feb 2016

By this time, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to not know the difference between socialist and democratic socialist, as well as the way the term has been deliberately conflated with communism for the past 50 years.

So please, explain yourself as you are so innocently asking for explanations from others. Why are you asking the question you ask in the Op and why are you asking it in the manner of pretend naivety?

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
31. Paging Sen McCarthy, paging Sen McCarthy, red-baiting courtesy telephone please.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:33 PM
Feb 2016

It would appear that OP is craving attention this evening. And I might point out to him that the only people afraid of socialists are right wingnuts.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
49. you know
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:40 PM
Feb 2016

Try not being so coy, I am sure you are a smart person. Why did you intentionally leave out "democratic"?

plus5mace

(140 posts)
37. Most traditional socialists do not view Sanders as a socialist.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:35 PM
Feb 2016

Socialists usually want to nationalize more than just health insurance. It would be better if he were more of a socialist; the US would be better off with banking and internet service provision served by public utilities, among others.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
50. I've been looking for weaknesses in Bernie's economic plan
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:41 PM
Feb 2016

I was thinking he is more like a Social Democrat. So I began searching for what some of my favorite economists had to say, and I was surprised that they were favorable. Even Reich is happy with him. Richard Wolff has scrutinized what Bernie wants, and his comment was surprising: he sees what Bernie is doing as the next better phase of Socialism. I know, part of it was to give workers first option whenever a business is being sold. And federal assistance to do it.

So there's some really good potential that's within our present reach.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
55. I think he is really more of a social democrat
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:42 PM
Feb 2016

than a socialist as far as his current platform goes. Doubt he's dumb enough to advocate for flat out socialism, in the current political climate.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
148. That's the spirit.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:19 PM
Feb 2016

Going to the moon was difficult. This is relatively straight forward and academic. It's already being done. Putting highways through this country was a big job. The only difference between what we have now and what we could see with a Sanders president is more citizens would have a say in how things are done. In other words, a better democracy.

 

Wig Master

(95 posts)
62. +1
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:44 PM
Feb 2016

Its a testament to how fucked we are as a country that Bernie's modest reforms are viewed as an attempt on society

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
38. Republicans have done a great job of scaring the American people.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:35 PM
Feb 2016

Imagine being ashamed to talk about something that's an improvement.

They're going to do it again soon. It'll be interesting to see how far they go.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
51. Democratic Socialism
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:41 PM
Feb 2016

is Socialism. It's a particular form of socialism, but it's socialism. It's not Marxist-Lenninist, that's for sure. The Democratic Socialists don't believe in the "revolutionary vanguard" that acts on behalf of the not ready for self-rule proletariat. That's for sure. The believe that social control of the means of production should be democratic social control.

Democratic Socialism is a huge political advance of the Marxist-Leninist vanguardism. But it's still socialism.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
82. There's more than one way to achieve it.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:01 PM
Feb 2016

It's going to be painted something frightening, no doubt. I have a feeling Bernie can handle it. He's on his game.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
48. He is.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:40 PM
Feb 2016

And wtf is wrong with being a democratic socialist? Do explain. Scandinavia is positively crawling with them and those countries have the highest QOL and happiest people in the world.

islandmkl

(5,275 posts)
52. these are becoming Home Depot™ posts...
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:41 PM
Feb 2016

I think this qualifies as the 'Pain Mixer' on sale category...

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
54. Technically, from my research he fits the profile of social democrat
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:42 PM
Feb 2016

as opposed to democratic socialist.

In other words, he's and FDR Democrat....ya know the good kind.

As opposed to the Nu-Democrats that are basically corporatists and militarists with some social equality bits thrown in here and there just to keep the horde at bay.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
60. He's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:43 PM
Feb 2016

People that think he is are confused.

He's a Democratic Socialist.

Which is not a socialist.

In the same way that a moon pie is neither a moon or a pie.

He believes in the Nordic Model.

He probably won't admit it because it's not true.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
71. grntuscarora is wrong
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:53 PM
Feb 2016

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government;[6] and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.[7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production;[7] as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.[8] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these.[9] Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[10] social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

grntuscarora

(1,249 posts)
87. I'm happy to defer to EdwardBernays.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:04 PM
Feb 2016

For those quibbling with labels, I don't care if he is or isn't the textbook definition of "socialist".
I care that he's the best hope for the working class, for the disenfranchised, and for the poor.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
95. me too!
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:09 PM
Feb 2016

I am EXTREMELY aware that if we all get our wish and Bernie makes it to the GE these words WILL matter... Every vote counts and if being able to allay some fears helps then we gotta allay some fears...

grntuscarora

(1,249 posts)
64. He's a socialist.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:45 PM
Feb 2016

and I have no problem with it.
I have a feeling many people working 3 jobs to make ends meet don't have a problem with it either.

grntuscarora

(1,249 posts)
75. kennetha, you're so cute when you miss the point.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:56 PM
Feb 2016

People working three jobs to feed their kids don't give a damn about what you call Bernie Sanders. They give a damn about how their strugging to put food on the table.
Do try to wrap your head around that.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
103. I think he's trolling
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:15 PM
Feb 2016

he's been told the truth repeatedly and I think he's just trying to cause a fight or something...

okasha

(11,573 posts)
65. From a socialist point of view,
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:45 PM
Feb 2016

Bernie isn't much of a socialist. He was a longtime conservative on gun issues and marriage equality, voted for the Border Wall and protection of white militias operating in the area, looooves him some MIC.

I suspect that he's kept the label long past its sell-by date to reinforce his chosen narrative of maverick independent. However honest it may have been once, it's now just a part of a carefully crafted image.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
74. Sanders' narrative?
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:55 PM
Feb 2016

Apparently it works just fine with his low-info high-dudgeon supporters.

Thanks for confirming.

Z_California

(650 posts)
85. More intellectually dishonest fun with words from an HRC supporter.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:03 PM
Feb 2016

Obviously I'm referring to your narrative that Sanders is on the wrong side of immigration, gay rights, and gun policy. I'm not sure who you think you'll convince with that sort of dishonest tripe.

There may be a position opening up for you in the HRC campaign though...

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
72. As long as his image does not include war, the TPP, cluster bombs, fracking, and increased
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:54 PM
Feb 2016

H-1B visas, I'm good with him. Don't care what label anyone is trying to slap on him, really.

Issues. Issues. Issues.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
81. So you're okay
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:01 PM
Feb 2016

with the US version of the Berlin Wall--a position Sanders shares with Trump--and white terrorists operating along the Border.

Issues.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
93. That does not outweigh war, the TPP, fracking, etc.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:08 PM
Feb 2016

Plus I don't think it will happen.
I DO think Hillary will strive for war and the TPP/TPIP, fracking, cuts to Social Security, increased H-1B visas. And the GOP and DINOs will be glad to oblige.

Here is where those jeers about "purity" bite the dust - even if there are one or two things I don't like about Bernie's positions, there is not anything whatsoever that makes Hillary a better choice for me. Nothing.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
119. That is war and the TPP.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:27 PM
Feb 2016

The wall will result in a major loss of US jobs. It will crash not just the Border economy but every US business that relies on the Pacific Rim goods coming through the deepwater ports at Lazaro Cardenas and Nayarit and forwarded on US-owned carriers.

You think Mexico won't retaliate by damming a major economic stream? You think those goods can't go to markets elsewhere? You think economic aggression by the United States won't result in violence? Think again.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
143. When has he supported a wall like Trump?
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:03 PM
Feb 2016

And his votes regarding Vermont on guns his hardly an endorsement of "white terrorists operating along the border."

Sweet Jesus.

Z_California

(650 posts)
66. Fun with words
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:48 PM
Feb 2016

It's so much more fun to play around with words than to have a nuanced discussion of issues when your candidate seems to be on the wrong side of the issues.

OkSustainAg

(203 posts)
70. I'm for Bernie
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:51 PM
Feb 2016

I'm a Democratic Socialist. I believe there should be Democracy in economics. People have rights as workers and should have say in the work place.

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
79. Here you go - Democratic Socialism - straight from Bernie's mouth:
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:58 PM
Feb 2016


He proudly claims to be a Democratic Socialist. Happy now??

Z_California

(650 posts)
92. The implication of this thread
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:07 PM
Feb 2016

I think is to demonstrate how terrible the word "socialist" will play with voters.

I liken it to having the middle name "Hussein". It's just not a deal breaker once people understand the truth.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
104. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:16 PM
Feb 2016

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

RiverLover

(7,830 posts)
96. I had a pro-Hillary friend say that to me. Its better than a repub pretending to be a Democrat.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:11 PM
Feb 2016

I replied. I kind of like Socialism, actually.

Libraries
Schools
Roads
Bridges
Health dept
FAA
State Troopers (they're always out there helping stranded drivers, aren't they?)
De-Icing trucks
FEMA
US Military

Socialism is sort of awesome.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
105. That's not socialism
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:16 PM
Feb 2016

and Bernie isn't a socialist.

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
107. Who says we don't?
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:18 PM
Feb 2016

I've admitted to being a socialist for forty five years now and that was before the cold war ended.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
110. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:18 PM
Feb 2016

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
112. You need to tell that to Bernie
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:21 PM
Feb 2016

Hey Bernie:

You know you're not a socialist, don't you? So stop saying that you are dude! You're just confusing people by red-baiting yourself.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
116. He doesn't
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:24 PM
Feb 2016

you're just trolling... he REPEATEDLY references Scandinavia which is NOT SOCIALIST.

Seriously man, trolling is not cool.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
117. No that's communism that owns the means of production.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:25 PM
Feb 2016

Socialism is about pooling your resources to provide what society needs like health care, pensions, fire protection, roads, police, etc. etc. Socialism allows for private industry to make things and conduct business. Also, people confuse both socialism and capitalism as being a system of government. They are not. They are economic systems that can work under various different kinds of governments from democratic ones to totalitarian dictatorships. Look at China. It's gone from a communistic economic system to a capitalistic one but still under the same oppressive dictatorship started seventy years ago.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
122. no
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:31 PM
Feb 2016

not at all.

Misuse of the term

See also: Socialized medicine

Particularly in the United States, the term "socialization" has been mistakenly used to refer to any state or government-operated industry or service (the proper term for such being either nationalization or municipalization). It has also been used to mean any tax-funded programs, whether privately run or government run. The term "socialized" is usually used in a pejorative sense, most commonly in reference to publicly funded health care programs.[43]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership#Misuse_of_the_term

ALL forms of socialism have social ownership... that's pretty much the only thing thing all the different strains agree on.

Social ownership is NOT government ownership. And Bernie does NOT believe in social ownership.

I know that this new pro-Bernie definition of "socialism" has been spread around, to try and make sense of what Bernie is saying, but he's NOT a socialist, and NEVER can be, because he doesn't agree with it's central tenet, which he has clearly stated.

He believes in what they have in Scandinavia, which he has also repeatedly said, which is NOT socialism, but is instead the Nordic Model, Nordic Capitalism or ... Democratic Socialism.

There is NO social ownership in Scandinavia.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
127. I know that terms are being parsed differently to suit various ideals but
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:39 PM
Feb 2016

I believe mine is the correct one. Communism, also an economic system, there is no real individual ownership. The Kibbutz is an example of this. Everyone works for the collective and every that is made or produced belongs to everyone. In a nation the government takes over this task. Socialism is pooling resources according to ones ability to pay to pay for things we need to do as a society like education, health care and so on, but it doesn't take over manufacturing and other commerce. That is kept in the private sector. Capitalism says that the corporations, which are little or big kingdoms, do everything best, but profit is what the end result should be. If you can't keep up with the king and nobles then you fall by the wayside and fail. No body cares if you live or die because it's your fault for being lazy or some such thing like that.

You will find that different schools of economic and political thought will have different definitions to suit their purposes. Mine work for me.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
130. a kibbutz
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:45 PM
Feb 2016

has social ownership, which is NOT what he's advocating for America.

There is a VERY CLEAR DISTINCTION between a government run program paid for with taxes and social ownership... they are not the same thing at all.

I understand you'd LIKE socialism to not include social ownership, but it does, in every economic or polisci textbook on the planet.

It's pretty much the core thing about socialism.

Sanders ABSOLUTELY believes in individual ownership of the means of production, not socialism.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
140. A kibbutz is communist not socialist.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:54 PM
Feb 2016

I think I said that the means of production is individual ownership and that is socialist otherwise it's communism.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
144. Communism vs socialism
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:17 PM
Feb 2016

Here's what the Marxists say:

Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism.

There are two kinds of private property. There is property which is personal in nature, consumer’s goods, used for private enjoyment. Then there is the kind of private property which is not personal in nature, property in the means of production. This kind of property is not used for private enjoyment, but to produce the consumer’s goods which are.

Socialism does not mean taking away the first kind of private property, e.g. your suit of clothes; it does mean taking away the second kind of private property, e.g. your factory for making suits of clothes. It means taking away private property in the means of production from the few so that there will be much more private property in the means of consumption for the many. That part of the wealth which is produced by workers and taken from them in the form of profits would be theirs, under socialism, to buy more private property, more suits of clothes, more furniture, more food, more tickets to the movies.

http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
149. The Marxists got it wrong by trying to make into a type of government.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:21 PM
Feb 2016

All are merely economic systems which can operate under any government system that accommodates them. In a democracy we need a balance between socialism and capitalism to make society function well. Right now our democracy is disintegrating because capitalists have taken over and are trying to run the government.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
115. The Right will use the term ''Socialist" the way they've demonize ''Liberal".
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:24 PM
Feb 2016

When Bernie gets the nomination of course. Wikipedia tries to explain it .. but in a Wikipedia way, by which they try to link it to Marxist-Leninism at it's introduction (wouldn't you know). Democratic Socialism, is what Bernie has always claimed to be. There is a huge difference between the Communist form of Socialism and Democratic Socialism. But if anyone in this country would educate themself, rather than looking at Beyonce's big ass, maybe we could get this country on the right path.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
118. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:25 PM
Feb 2016

wikipedia explains it just fine if you know where to look...

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in - it's called the Nordic Model - or Democratic Socialism:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

Mike Nelson

(9,966 posts)
123. Probably because...
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:32 PM
Feb 2016

...many Americans outside of his Vermont constituency equate "Socialist" with "Communist". USSR-style, not European-style. Most nations are growing more Socialist, which is the system that seems to work best. Although he has explained it nicely, Sanders is wise to drop the term.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
132. he's not a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:45 PM
Feb 2016

at all

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believe in

Here's what he believes in:

"These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

matt819

(10,749 posts)
155. Ok. But
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:59 PM
Feb 2016

You may be right. And if this were an academic arena that would be fine. But the raw voters aren't exactly thinkers. They're going to attach the label and the sanders campaign, when we get there, will have to address it in terms the low info voters can understand.

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
136. Two words
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:48 PM
Feb 2016

DEMOCRATIC Socialist. Do you consider National Socialists to be "Socialist" by your definition?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
139. Because he isn't?
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:50 PM
Feb 2016

Democratic socialist and socialist are not the same thing.

Why won't Hillary Clinton supporters admit she is one of the lizard people, sent to Earth to rule over us and seize our precious bodily fluids?

(Hint: The answer is the same - because she isn't)

Half-Century Man

(5,279 posts)
141. I am far deeper left than Bernie Sanders.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:55 PM
Feb 2016

And still consider myself a Democratic Socialist.
There are certain functions of society that we absolutely need to do collectively without any sort of profit motivation or privatization.
Legislation
The Military
Criminal prosecution and punishment
Education
Postal Service
Environmental protection.
Health Care
Social Security/Disability

No private prisons
No private schools
No defense contractors
No for profit health care facilities
No corporate courts

I believe all political campaigns should be exclusively publicly funded.
I believe the internet is the property of every one of us and should be utterly neutral.

Our society is all of us within the geographical boundaries of the United States at any given moment plus many others overseas. A very significant portion of our society are empowered to band together and decide through voting the overall course we shall tread. We select an "action arm" to do our bidding; to handle the day to day functions and formally document our goals and rules. That is socialism.
We are now and always have been a socialistic country.
The reason our foundation documents do have the word socialism in them is they predate the socialistic movement by some 30/40 years.
The people who formulated socialism had only one country to observe in action that had transitioned to collective self rule without a bloodbath: Us, the United States.



kristopher

(29,798 posts)
142. Some great information on what democratic/ nordic/socialism buys you.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:00 PM
Feb 2016
Research source cited below:
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/
Life Satisfaction


Background
Measuring feelings can be very subjective, but is nonetheless a useful complement to more objective data when comparing quality of life across countries. Subjective data can provide a personal evaluation of an individual’s health, education, income, personal fulfilment and social conditions. Surveys, in particular, are used to measure life satisfaction and happiness.


Life satisfaction
Life satisfaction measures how people evaluate their life as a whole rather than their current feelings. When asked to rate their general satisfaction with life on a scale from 0 to 10, people across the OECD gave it a 6.6 grade. Life satisfaction is not evenly shared across the OECD however. Some countries – Estonia, Greece, Hungary, Portugal and Turkey – have a relatively low level of overall life satisfaction, with average scores of less than 5.6. At the other end of the scale, scores reach 7.5 in Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland. There is almost no difference in life satisfaction levels between men and women across OECD countries. However, when looking at people’s education level, there is a clear difference: whereas people who have only completed primary education across OECD countries have a life satisfaction level of 5.9, this score reaches 7 for people with tertiary education....

Details by country...



Monday, May 11, 2009
World's Happiest Countries? Social Democracies
by
Craig Brown
A new report released by the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) shows that happiness levels are highest in northern European countries.

Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands rated at the top of the list, ranking first, second and third, respectively.

The US? As expected, the United States failed to make the top 10 but ranked among the highest for obesity and child poverty. Americans spend less than half the amount of time eating as the French, but have three times the obesity rate. “This tells us something about slow food, I think,” Simon Chappele, editor of the report said in an interview with NPR.

The report also showed the United States has the lowest mean age for women when they first gave birth, at 25.1 years old.
http://www.commondreams.org/further/2009/05/11/worlds-happiest-countries-social-democracies


These Are The Happiest Countries In The World
06/05/2015

Denmark’s residents are the most satisfied with their lives, according to the Better Life Index released Monday. According to the study, published annually by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the United States failed to crack the top 10 for the fifth consecutive year.

The Better Life Index rates the 34 OECD member nations, as well as Brazil and the Russian Federation, on 22 variables that contribute to overall well-being, including income, education, housing, health, and life satisfaction. 24/7 Wall St. reviewed the 10 countries with the highest life satisfaction score.

A healthy job market is one of the most important factors contributing to higher life evaluations. Employment rates — the percentage of the working-age population that is employed — were higher in each of the 10 countries with the highest life satisfaction score than the average employment rate for the countries reviewed.

Conversely, countries with relatively unhealthy job markets had lower life satisfaction scores. Unemployment rates were above 8.5% in seven of the 10 least happy countries, while they were lower than 7% in all but two of the happiest countries.

Healthy labor markets not only help promote job security, but also they can ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/05/these-are-the-happiest-co_n_7521674.html


Forbes Best countries for Business
http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/#tab verall

Rank Name GDP Growth GDP per Capita Trade Balance/GDP Population
#1 Denmark 1.1% $44,600 6.3% 5.6 M
#2 New Zealand 3.3% $35,300 -3.2% 4.4 M
#3 Norway 2.2% $67,200 9.4% 5.2 M
#4 Ireland 5.2% $51,300 3.7% 4.9 M
#5 Sweden 2.3% $46,200 6.2% 9.8 M
#6 Finland -0.4% $40,700 -1.8% 5.5 M
#7 Canada 2.4% $45,000 -2.1% 35.1 M
#8 Singapore 2.9% $83,100 19.1% 5.7 M
#9 Netherlands 1% $48,000 10.4% 16.9 M
#10 United Kingdom 3% $39,800 -5.9% 64.1 M
#11 Hong Kong 2.5% $55,100 1.9% 7.1 M
#12 Switzerland 1.9% $58,100 7.2% 8.1 M
#13 Iceland 1.8% $44,000 3.6% 0.3 M
#14 Australia 2.7% $46,600 -3% 22.8 M
#15 Belgium 1.1% $43,100 1.6% 11.3 M
#16 Portugal 0.9% $27,100 0.6% 10.8 M
#17 Lithuania 3% $27,300 0.1% 2.9 M
#18 Germany 1.6% $46,200 7.4% 80.9 M
#19 Estonia 2.9% $27,900 0.1% 1.3 M
#20 Slovenia 3% $29,900 6.9% 2 M
#21 Taiwan 3.8% $46,000 12.4% 23.4 M
#22 United States 2.4% $54,400 -2.2% 321.4 M
#23 Japan -0.1% $37,500 0.5% 126.9 M



After I Lived in Norway, America Felt Backward. Here’s Why.
A crash course in social democracy.

By Ann JonesJANUARY 28, 2016
http://www.thenation.com/article/after-i-lived-in-norway-america-felt-backward-heres-why/

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
150. Why can't you admit you're desperately flinging crap to see what sticks?
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:23 PM
Feb 2016

At least judging from your numerous OPs where you try to stick something on Sanders.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
151. Because it's a word without any clear definition.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:26 PM
Feb 2016

And debating the meaning of a loosely defined label is a fool's errand. The ideas matter and not the label.

no_hypocrisy

(46,178 posts)
152. Eugene Victor Debs was a socialist.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:27 PM
Feb 2016

Bernie is a democratic socialist.

Two different but related political philosophies.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
169. Because those that are not trying to smear him understand the definition of socialist and
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 09:53 PM
Feb 2016

Sen Sanders does not meet it. From wikipedia: "Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production;"

Sen Sanders has never expressed a desire for "social ownership and democratic control of the means of production."

Sen Sanders believes in the social ownership and democratic control of police, fire and road departments, Social Security and Medicare, prisons, etc. All the things that Clinton doesn't believe in. Clinton believes in the privatization of most of the things I've listed which is at best corporatist or at worst fascist.

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