why can't hillary supporters use the term "democratic socialist?"

[restorefreedom]

there is a big difference between democratic socialism (or propressive liberal/fdr liberal, etc) which is highly regulated capitalism with a progressive tax system, and socialism as we have come to see communist countries, where the govt overtakes the means of production.

bernie is the former, and yet every hillary surrogate (matthews, mccaskill, etc) uses the term"socialist" and phrases like hammer and sickle. matthews suggested the other day that bernie wants to take over the means of production, which is complete bullshit and he knows it.

ironic that hillary is accusing bernie of "artful smears". because purposely obfuscating this distinction and misleading people is pretty artful, as well as pretty slimy.

[Arazi]

1. Red baiting is so tempting and facile eom

[redstateblues]

67. Bernie calls himself a socialist

How is it redbaiting?

[Duckhunter935]

69. a democratic socialist

And yes, deliberately dropping that part equals red baiting

[senz]

75. They can't compete honestly. They have to lie.

[redstateblues]

80. So the fact that Bernie has called himself a Socialist

Many times means he is red baiting? He only added "democratic" when he started running for POTUS

[kristopher]

87. It can be red baiting.

Red baiting goes to intent. IF someone is trying to scare by conjuring images of a Stalinist state or the collectives of Communist China, then putting it out there is red baiting. If they are trying to educate an uninformed person, then it isn't.

This FB wisdom might help:
Can we agree that you cannot have socialism without capitalism, for it becomes communism;
but neither can you have capitalism without socialism, for it becomes fascism.

[EdwardBernays]

2. Engage fairly?

Why are you expecting that from a Clinton? Or their supporters?

[roguevalley]

11. they like to think of someone who cares about them, their future,

ending stupid wars, the fair taxation of everyone, the right to an education and health care for everyone, the freedom to grow up not choking on toxic waste and retiring decently is a communist plot by a SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST/COMMIE! Blame No Child(ish Person) left behind.

[msongs]

3. maybe cuz hillary supporters are democratic democrats, not independents running as democrats? nt

[restorefreedom]

5. decades of caucusing with dems

and being more dem than many dinos

identity politics is over

sanders v trump 2016
get your popcorn now!

[leftofcool]

14. And voting with Rand Paul

[restorefreedom]

18. kinda like when hillary voted with rick santorum,

jesse helms
and
jim inhofe

among other odious characters, to support the iraq war......

[Duckhunter935]

32. oh snap

That hurt, then there was silence,

[restorefreedom]

35. lol :) nt

[cui bono]

15. Actually, no, they aren't that democratic.

[Maedhros]

23. Yet they behave more like Republican Democrats...[n/t]

[passiveporcupine]

55. don't you mean that Hillary supporters are

Conservative dems and Bernie is a Democratic Socialist (progressive) who normally calls himself an Independent because there is no democratic socialist party? You know, the party that democrats used to be until Reagan?

And you know (I know you do), running as a Dem was a deliberate move to not weaken the dem vote, which means that if he ran as third party he might have helped the GOP to win. Would you have wanted that? Remember Nader? We may have more that two parties in this country, but only the Dems and GOP are big eough to actually win the election. So it's join the Dems and win the White House or welcome the GOP to the White House. Which would you prefer?

Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Nader/Bush gave us the Iraq war. Just think what Bernie/Cruz could give us if Cruz won 2016 because Bernie ran as an Independent.

Bernie is the democrats best friend. I wish so many Dems would quit hating on him so much.

[senz]

78. Well said, pp.

[Lazy Daisy]

56. So are you saying

That "real" democrats aren't honest? Because calling Bernie a Socialist and not Democratic Socialist is very dishonest.

[arcane1]

4. Because that would be honest n/t

[sadoldgirl]

6. because it would not further their propaganda purposes.

[Dustlawyer]

50. Bingo!

I suggest we write, tweet, FB, whatever, each time a pundit or reporter leaves out the word "Democratic" everytime they say the word "Socialist."

We campaign to call them out for what they are, lying, partisan, hacks!!!

Next time Tweety does it we all go to MSNBC.com and call them out! They made a stink and suspended Kieth Olberman for making a campaign donation, yet this guy is now gone full on hyper-partisian. Early on he blew off Bernie as an afterthought. Once Bernie became a proven threat to Hillary (and Tweety's wife announced she was running for some shit), he has gone nuts!

[senz]

79. Good idea to correct pundits who leave off "democratic."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. Because the word "socialist" conjures up visions of gulags and five-year plans

and totalitarian government oppression and the scowling visage of Josef Stalin. "Democratic socialist," in contrast, might make one think of the happy, prosperous countries of Scandinavia, where people have free college and health care even though - quelle surprise - they also own their own homes, businesses and other property. But we wouldn't want anyone to imagine that for America, would we?

[YOHABLO]

46. You're so right. When it should conjure Denmark, Norway, even Germany.

All which are speeding way ahead of the U.S. in healthcare, education, and standard of living.

[Lordquinton]

60. The only socialism that Germany conjures up is the national kind

For me at least. And that's creeping back into Europe which is terrifying. We're so caught up with our own political troubles we can't cover what's on the other side of the pond.

[passiveporcupine]

83. Not sure what you are referring to here

The social market economy refrains from attempts to plan and guide production, the workforce, or sales, but it does support planned efforts to influence the economy through the organic means of a comprehensive economic policy coupled with flexible adaptation to market studies. Effectively combining monetary, credit, trade, tax, customs, investment, and social policies, as well as other measures, this type of economic policy creates an economy that serves the welfare and needs of the entire population, thereby fulfilling its ultimate goal.[8]

The 'social' segment is often wrongly confused with socialism and democratic socialism, though aspects were inspired by both models. Social market economics rejects the socialist idea that states can replace markets. Socially the model supports the provision of equal opportunity and protection of those unable to enter the free market labor force, for example because of old-age, disability or unemployment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy

Where do you see National socialism (the means of production being taken over by the government) infiltrating?

[Lordquinton]

84. I was referring less to actual national socalism

and making reference to the national socialist party, and how neo-conservative sentiments are creeping back into style in many countries, what will all the conservative parties winning over there. I don't have the data on hand, but it's out there.

[passiveporcupine]

86. OK thanks.

Yes, I'm concerned with the neo-conservative sentiments creeping back in too. But that's not national socialism... that's just plain conservatism. If we are talking about the same thing.

Richard Wolff has talked a lot about employee owned businesses in Germany...a socialist program that helps a lot of Germans who lose their jobs. They are given money to join together to start a business. It sounds great to me.

[Lordquinton]

90. That does sound like a great program

one that actually promotes small business.

And no, it's not actually national socialism, just echoing the party that held the name.

[stillwaiting]

8. I see many right-wing Republicans on social media doing the same.

It's strange, isn't it?

[liberal_at_heart]

9. the same reason they can't seem to stop using the word berniebros?

[senz]

81. Or calling Bernie supporters "bro."

When used that way, the term is quite sexist.

[dana_b]

10. Because it's not as "scary" as socialism

and it's better for Hillary if people are scared of Bernie.

[MrMickeysMom]

12. Yeah... Just ask Chris Matthews...

He couldn't stop himself from talking over a polite Thom Hartmann, who was providing examples. Tweety wouldn't have ANY of it. Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah-nah!

He'd rather be paid for helping to try to scare people then recall what he should have learned in secondary education (which was socialism).

These people don't WANT to know.

[cui bono]

13. LOVE 'propressive'!!! I think we have a new term for Hillary!

I know it's a typo but I think it might be a fortunate accident.



.

[restorefreedom]

16. oh damn. my typing sucks.

gonna leave it so your comment makes sense lol

[cui bono]

17. I don't mind not making sense.

It happens a lot!!!

lol, first video I went to had a typo in it, so I picked that one just for you!

And see... I can't make any sense now either because I can't remember which song is the one with the lyrics that say "stop making sense, making sense.

&list=PLahKLy8pQdCPlac3jvwPeLBuAhtTJ5b1M

.

[restorefreedom]

19. lol! and i love the t heads!!!! nt

[Fast Walker 52]

57. hilarious!

[Bluenorthwest]

20. I assume it is an homage to their hero Senator Joe McCarthy.

nt

[BainsBane]

21. When Sanders supporters bother

Last edited Mon Feb 8, 2016, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

To read Clinton's policy proposals and discuss what she actually proposes rather than inventing false positions, I might have some sympathy for your efforts to dictate the words people are allowed to write. However, if you actually intend Bernie to be the nominee, you need to get over this. The GOP doesn't care how you feel about discussions of Bernie's self proclaimed socialism. This determination to ensure a candidate become the nominee without any criticism or vetting serves the interests of no one but the Republicans.

I will also note we have had extensive justifications on this site for calling Clinton, and all women, c...ts and w...es. In light of that, your plea for people to stop using a term Sanders himself invokes to describe himself shows a stark double standard. My job in life is not to protect a man who seeks to rise to the most powerful office in the country from criticism or scrutiny, nor to defer to those who use a series of insulting terms to refer to me and other Clinton supporters.

I myself rarely talk about Sanders claims of socialism other than to say I see no sign she is a socialist (no self-respecting socialist would immunize gun corporations from the people's right to sue), but it would nonetheless be the heart of a GOP campaign against him, which is so obvious that no one should need reminding.

I would also ask, if you consider socialism to be a dirty word, why would you support someone who claims that label?

Bernie cannot be insulated from criticism while running for president. If his supporters find that so unacceptable, or their candidate unable to bear scrutiny, they should urge him to quit. As long as he is a candidate, the people and the press have any right, indeed responsibility, to vet him thoroughly.

[restorefreedom]

26. so your position is that she is HELPING him?

one need only visit rw forums for about two seconds to see that hillary AND bernie are called socialist and communist (its interchangable for them). and anyone taken in by matthews style fear mongering would never vote for either of them.

he doesn't need protection. but he refers to himself as a DEMOCRATIC socialist. the very least other dems can do is be consistent with the terminology. of course, matthews and others are red baiting, so they are being intentionally misleading.

[BainsBane]

88. How is it misleading?

He calls himself a socialist. Socialists are red. What's the problem? I am not offended in the slightest if someone calls me a socialist or red. I don't see the word as insulting at all. I am offended by the shit I'm called on this site, particularly when the people doing the insulting have never even bothered to read Marx or any leftist political theory.

Actually, it looks like you have some buyers remorse.

As I've said to others who whine about this, it's time to toughen up. If you want Bernie to be the nominee, you're going to have charges of communism as THE FOCAL point of the campaign. It has nothing to do with defending any cable news personality. It's a matter of facing reality.

If you don't like the cable news, turn the TV off. I for one don't know why anyone rots their brains with that crap in the first place, whether Matthews or anyone else. It's not news. It will never be news. It's entertainment.

Matthews grew up in the Cold War. A lot of Americans see things like he does. Socialists were imprisoned in this country, blacklisted, deported. People his age grew up with that around them. He is far from the only one who freaks out about the association with socialism. Even my 19 yr old nephew says he won't vote for a socialist.

FYI: socialism is an economic system, not a political one, just as capitalism is an economic system rather than a political one. Democracy is a political system, and authoritarian dictatorships are political systems. They operate on different planes. You can have a capitalist democracy or a capitalist dictatorship. The same, at least theoretically, is true with socialism.

---

Hillary Clinton would likely be amused that you think Matthews her surrogate. He's been famously hostile to her, and the only reason he has recently suspended that hostility is because Sanders remains her only competition for the nomination.

[restorefreedom]

89. if you don't see how they are redbaiting,

then nothing i say will help here. they are taking the rw misguided position that bernie is a Bolshevik and plans to take over the country, including the means of production. they know damn well he is not planning to do that. they are playing to a rw base that won't vote for a dem anyway. its no different than the racebaiting of 08 against obama. matthews knows damn well the difference, but he is so blinded by his wife's political ambition he can't even think straight.

buyer's remorse?????? lol! thanks for that, i needed a chuckle

bernie now more than ever!!!!!!!!!!

bernie v trump 2016
get your popcorn now!

[Warren Stupidity]

22. They are hell bent on digging a hole they can't climb out

of. Happened here in 2008 and its happening again.

[Maedhros]

24. Because they are disigenuous?[n/t]

[John Poet]

25. Why can't they admit that their candidate is a war-mongering

foreign policy neoconservative, whose policies would be little better
than those of Jeb Bush (a founding signatory of the
'Project for a New American Century' which pushed for the Iraq war) ?

[orpupilofnature57]

27. Can they say Fascist and then define it, without resembling themselves ?

[restorefreedom]

29. i'm gonna go with 'no' nt

[FSogol]

28. Bernie calls himself a socialist, why does it matter if others call him that? As proof, here

is Sander's Senate page. In the posted article, titled "Sanders Socialist Successes" (by Sanders) he calls himself a socialist 4 or 5 times and never uses the Democratic Socialist modifier.


http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/sanders-socialist-successes

Why get outraged when others call him something he calls himself?

[restorefreedom]

33. that article benefited from alliteration

for the catchy title. in interviews he always describes himself as a dem socialist. and matthews and his ilk are purposely invoking the redbaiting angle to try and discredit bernie and paint him as a communist. it is disingenuous and slimy of them

[FSogol]

38. No, he uses the term interchangably as evidenced by his writings.

IMO, he should own the term and do a better job of explaining what it (and he) means. His supporters should stop decrying the use of a term that he uses himself.

As for Matthews, his attacks (hardly rising to the level of redbaiting) pale in comparison to what the GOP will say. Sanders and his supporters should be ready.

BTW, did you see Howard Dean tell Matthews off the other night? Dean did Sanders a good service by explaining Sander's type of socialism. That provided the Sanders' campaign much more benefits than all the wailing over people using the term.

[restorefreedom]

42. i heard dean basically told matthews to cut the crap

but anyone prone to be taken in by such wordtwisting isnt even in a universe that will lead them to vote for any dem.

but matthews is clearly redbaiting, which is a shitty thing to do. then again, his wife is a big hillary supporter and is running for comgress, so there is that.....

[fourcents]

49. Because he calls himself a Democratic Socialist by far more than.......

.... a Socialist you can't correct everyone every time.

[FSogol]

54. Not if you read his writings. His Senate page is full of examples. n/t

[fourcents]

64. The ratio is a million to one your insisting so you can use it as a perjorative, I get it.

[FSogol]

72. Translation: Math is hard.

[Duckhunter935]

30. because they like red baiting

You notice no Hillary supporters call them out on it either. Just as Hillary had Claire McCaskill put it out.

[restorefreedom]

34. exactly. chris matthews and his ilk, too. nt

[redstateblues]

66. How is it redbaiting

When Bernie calls himself a socialist ?

[Duckhunter935]

68. because he calls himself a "Democratic"

Socialist. Why are Hillary's surrogates also using the hammer and sickle? What do you think we are idiots?

[redstateblues]

82. He has called himself a Socialist many times.

He only started using Democratic when he started running for POTUS. He can own it- why can't so many of his supporters do the same if there's nothing toxic about it?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Juliet in Romeo and Juliet.

[orpupilofnature57]

37. Nice Quote, and apropos !!! It's what I think of when I see a Dem Tout War, Fear and Greed .

[HassleCat]

36. Odd, isn't it?

Many of them are very insistent about being in the "Democratic" Party, which does not support democracy very much at all. We don't see them trotting out the Websters Unabridged and schooling party officials about why they have no business using the word "democratic" in the title of the party.

[jalan48]

39. I don't think they know the difference-

[democrank]

40. It`s an "artful smear" just like the ones they used against Obama.

The clinton team will do anything to win. ANYTHING.

[litlbilly]

41. The same reason rebukes cant say democratic party instead of democrat party.

[zentrum]

43. You said it.

Slimy.

[GoneFishin]

44. They think this artful smear is a cute way to avoid discussing the issues. Some are disaffected

Republicans who only object to these Fox News style smears when they are used against them.

[frylock]

45. Why do Republicans call their opposition the Democrat party?

Because they're assholes.

[fierywoman]

47. projecting

ironic that hillary is accusing bernie of "artful smears" --in psychology it's called "projecting" : accusing the other of what you can't accept or hate in yourself.

[Beartracks]

48. For the same reason FOXers always stressed Barack HUSSEIN Obama.

They like to play on people's fears, plant suggestions, etc.?



==================

[Amimnoch]

51. Democratic Socialist, and Democratic Socialism.

No problem at all with them. Hell, so many social laws, services, and benefits out there already, we've been down that road and it works very well for us. They are in severe need of additional funding and expansion.

Personally, I don't subscribe to "good" or "evil" when it comes to economic models. All can be GREAT.. With the right people in charge of them, and harmful with the wrong. Hell, even forms of government don't really scare me. A benevolent Despot can be a far better form of leadership than an abusive and corrupt Republic.

There's a lot of strong, anti-Capitalist sentiment here. Me, I don't mind it so much. It promotes competition, and provides a natural form of checks and balances. Western Capitalism and Industrializarion have done MUCH to transform the world. Just imagine what life was like a mere 300 years ago. Infant mortality was so much lower, work was extreme drudgery, flight was a dream and the thing of myths. The richest of persons didn't have available in their pantries the incredibly lavish choices and variety that's available at the nearest supermarket today, affordable to just about everyone. It has taken the innovation of creative individuals, combined with the power of the Capitalist market to bring us into the modern computer and internet ages. On the other hand, unfettered, Capitalism leaves open the possibility of gross abuses. Monopolies, Oligarchies, and abuses to the work force. This is where regulation, and oversight (especially on anyone that is "too big to fail" and has the potential to cause great harm to the economy as a whole. This is where Democratic Socialism comes in, and it's to promote the general welfare (one of the key parts of the preamble of the US Constitution).

I'm a Hillary supporter, and no, I have no issue at all with saying Democratic Socialism.

[bvf]

52. Why speak honestly

if it only hurts your cause?

[artislife]

53. Willfully ignorant? nt

[99Forever]

58. Because that would be the honest and ethical thing to do.

They are neither.

[billhicks76]

59. Is This True???

http://www.timrusso.org/2016/02/the-worst-berniebro-trolls-are-likely-paid-hillary-fakes-aka-ninjas/

[Ino]

62. I wouldn't be surprised...

if the worst berniebro trolls are UNPAID hillary fakes

Go to jackassradicals.com, where Hillary supporters like to pretend they are berniebros, and post the most vile, ignorant, racist, sexist things, and let me know if you think they are capable of posting those things elsewhere.

[billhicks76]

85. Bernie Should Pay

He should pay anyone $10,000 who admits they were paid to do this and have proof. Nail in her coffin.

[Duckhunter935]

70. who knows?

But it really would not surprise me or some Republican dirty tricks

[Hydra]

61. You're expecting them to engage with reality??

Team Hillary is paid to spin sugar all day. You'd think the things they would come up with were sweeter and easier to digest, but unhappy people rarely make yummy things.

Bernie isn't a Socialist, more's the pity...but to every RW economic "genius" anything left of disaster capitalism is poisonous red thinking.

[DesertRat]

63. Democratic Socialist

Easy peasy

[winterwar]

65. Like when Repugs call us the Democrat party

It's deliberate. Call it a "red" dog whistle maybe?

[Duckhunter935]

71. exactly

[Gothmog]

73. What is the opposite of capitalist?

Sanders has given the GOP and the Kochs plenty of material to use http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-october-11-2015-n442476

CHUCK TODD:

Alright, you joked about the idea when people call you a socialist, you say, "Yes, I'm going to make everybody wear the same color pajamas."

BERNIE SANDERS:

Especially you.

CHUCK TODD:

Especially me?

BERNIE SANDERS:

I have a pair of pajamas just for you.

CHUCK TODD:

I hear you. And then the other day I noticed you said, "You know what? Don't use the word 'Socialist.' I'm going to say I'm a progressive." Are you pushing back on that idea? Or are you embrace "I'm a European Socialist."

BERNIE SANDERS:

No, no not at all, it's not a question of-- look. When one of your Republican colleagues gets on the show, do you say, "Are you a capitalist?" Have you ever referred to them as capitalists?

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah. Are you a capitalist?

BERNIE SANDERS:

No. I'm a Democratic Socialist. But what I mean is I've been elected as an Independent throughout my political career. I am running now in the Democratic nomination process and will support-- I hope to win, I expect to win, but--

[Gothmog]

74. Why Bernie Sanders isn’t going to be president, in five words

The attack ads from this appearance on Meet the Press write themselves https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/12/why-bernie-sanders-isnt-going-to-be-president-in-5-words/

Meet the Press ✔ @meetthepress
CHUCK TODD: Are you a capitalist?@BernieSanders: No. I'm a Democratic Socialist.
8:33 AM - 11 Oct 2015

And, in those five words, Sanders showed why — no matter how much energy there is for him on the liberal left — he isn't getting elected president.

Why? Because Democrat or Republican (or independent), capitalism remains a pretty popular concept — especially when compared to socialism. A 2011 Pew Research Center survey showed that 50 percent of people had a favorable view of capitalism, while 40 percent had an unfavorable one. Of socialism, just three in 10 had a positive opinion, while 61 percent saw it in a negative light.

Wrote Pew in a memo analyzing the results:

Of these terms, socialism is the more politically polarizing — the reaction is almost universally negative among conservatives, while generally positive among liberals. While there are substantial differences in how liberals and conservatives think of capitalism, the gaps are far narrower.

...The simple political fact is that if Sanders did ever manage to win the Democratic presidential nomination — a long shot but far from a no shot at this point — Republicans would simply clip Sanders's answer to Todd above and put it in a 30-second TV ad. That would, almost certainly, be the end of Sanders's viability in a general election.

Americans might be increasingly aware of the economic inequality in the country and increasingly suspicious of so-called vulture capitalism — all of which has helped fuel Sanders's rise. But we are not electing someone who is an avowed socialist to the nation's top political job. Just ain't happening.

You can try to argue that the two terms are not the same but that will not stop the Kochs from running $200 milion to $300 million using that term in negative ads that would be very effective.

[closeupready]

76. Um thank you! Scandinavia was Democratic Socialist in the Cold War.

And look at them now, putting our economy to SHAME. K&R

[Spitfire of ATJ]

77. Democratic Socialism is alive and well everywhere but the United states....

http://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism

Aren't you a party that's in competition with the Democratic Party for votes and support?

A: No, we are not a separate party. Like our friends and allies in the feminist, labor, civil rights, religious, and community organizing movements, many of us have been active in the Democratic Party. We work with those movements to strengthen the party’s left wing, represented by the Congressional Progressive Caucus*.

http://www.dsausa.org/

*Bernie is the ONLY member of the CPC in the Senate.

Hillary has NEVER been a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.