Can Sanders win the black Democratic vote? He's got a long way to go.

[bravenak]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/09/bernie-sanders-black-democratic-vote

[SidDithers]

1. DU rec...nt

Sid

[Vattel]

2. To know him is to love him.

[bravenak]

3. Shoulda made himself known

[TheBlackAdder]

14. Her divisive posture on Obama, MLK, Jessie Jackson, Rev. Wright, will slowly reveal itself!

.



Things really get going after the 7 min. mark...


Dissing MLK, Jessie Jackson, Rev. Wright, favoring McCain over Obama, etc., and her allusion to assassination.

She partially atoned for her actions, but KXL, Big Money, Big Oil, etc. gives me reservations.

I will vote Democratic, no matter who the nominee is, but I stand uncommitted right now.


Who is she really, inside? I don't think anyone of us knows!


.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

17. The black community is not dumb! We remember HRC's racist campaign in 2008!

The majority of us simply have not warmed to Bernie, and that's that.

Deal with it!

[LondonReign2]

175. Where does that leave you Liberal Stalwart?

Curious how you see it from here on out. If neither candidate is appealing for you...well, then what?

If the general comes around and neither candidate is appealing to me (and the Republican is guaranteed not to be appealing) I'm going to have a conundrum...

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

177. I'm with you. Neither candidate is appealing to me. I started off with Sanders, but

he has turned me off. And his fanatics have REALLY turned me off.

There's a possibility that I could support Sanders in the end, but I'm not sure.

I know that I will be supporting down ticket candidates.

[LondonReign2]

179. Agree, it won't affect my vote down ticket

But the top of the ticket could (I would say probably) be blank.

[1StrongBlackMan]

182. I get what you mean ...

I am there, myself.

However, leaving the top blank for the primary (arguably) makes sense, but not when it comes to the General Election, as there is a clear choice between whomever is the Democratic candidate and whomever is the republican candidate. A non-vote in the G/E (from Democrats/the left/Liberals/Progressives) is in effect a vote for the gop.

Don't do that!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

184. My state is so Democratic that my non-vote for the presidential candidate won't

matter. If it's HRC, I'll be honest--you know I can't do it.

If it's Sanders, I will think about it.

But seeing as I don't think Sanders will win, it'll be Hillary. I just can't.

[1StrongBlackMan]

187. LOL ...

Okay.

[Logical]

40. Lol, read more. Nt

[bravenak]

71. About Bernie?

Hell. No.

[Logical]

92. You seem like the closed minded type. nt

[bravenak]

100. Good!

[Logical]

102. OK!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

16. I've known him for many years and still do not love him.

Stop telling black people what to do!

[Vattel]

27. Nice self-parody

[Logical]

42. Stop telling me what to do! Nt

[arcane1]

76. Some assholes even point their fingers in black people's faces and say "here's what you need to do!"

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

169. Sorry. This doesn't change my mind. I make up my OWN mind. Period.

[Beacool]

68. Hmmm, not really.

I respect the man, but I won't vote for him in my state's primary, let alone love him.

[Uponthegears]

4. The link

Is actually very informative.

It reminds us that Hillary, as she does now, held a sizeable lead among POC over her chief primary opponent in 2008. It explains how that lead evaporated after voters learned from the Iowa caucus results that her opponent was a viable candidate and those voters started to look more at policy differences instead of electability (both legit issues, btw). Finally it talks about how Hillary's insensitivity to the concerns of POC ended up costing her huge lead.

Bernie made some early missteps, it is true, but when this primary becomes a policy discussion, Hillary will be hard pressed to hold onto her lead.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

20. Three phenomena could be impeding Sanders from capturing more of the black American mind....

1. As the article explains, his stance on race vs. class. He seems to not get it. And his supporters, especially, with their arrogance and condescending behavior towards blacks are doing him no favors.

2. We all know Hillary Clinton. We know how racist her campaign was in 2008, but she hasn't really wavered that much in her support for Obama. I still do not support HRC or Bernie Sanders, but him taking shots at the president also doesn't help him--in addition to his race vs. class ideology. So, in a few words, black voters may be more comfortable with the devil they know than some angel that they're not convinced can deliver. I'm also not convinced that Bernie Sanders can deliver what he's promising.

3. His supporters. Oh, his supporters. Not only here on DU, but across the blogosphere and yes, even in everyday life--they have been most frustratingly arrogant, even turning off black voters like me who could consider voting for Bernie Sanders. They have been horrible in their treatment of black voters. From the BernieBros to other condescending members of the white liberal establishment who are arrogantly lecturing to black Americans about their CHOICE of vote. It's hurting Sanders. Badly!

[thereismore]

29. Let's see what he does at the forum on black issues this Friday. And he dealt with his supporters as

well as he could be expected or better.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

50. That's fair. I'm here for it. Thanks for not being rude or condescending like your other Sanders'

friends here have been. Much appreciated.

[thereismore]

55. I have been rude before, and stupid. I always try to learn. It's the best I can do.

I really really hope that Sanders will speak from his soul. If he does that, I know that black people will give him a fair shake. How they decide is up to them and I will respect their decision, even if it should mean President Hillary.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

65. We always give Democratic candidates a fair chance. We gave Hillary a fair chance. She fucked it up.

We gave Obama a fair chance.

Now it's Bernie's turn.

Black people are not only fair-minded, we are STRATEGIC voters; we're not going to support anyone who we believe cannot win, no matter how great he/she is; no matter how great her/his policies are.

We need to be convinced that Bernie can destroy the Republicans.

And after that, he needs to tell us how to overcome Republican (and Democratic) obstruction.

I was once a Bernie supporter. I am fair-minded. Convince me again why I should go back.

[thereismore]

66. I will leave that to Bernie. I am hopeful that we learn something new from him on Friday.

Black people have always been the guardians of justice. And not just for themselves.

[bravenak]

73. Hi.

Thank you for being cool.

[thereismore]

80. Well lookie who the cat brought in. My cool sister!

[bravenak]

81. What up bro?

(Jury Disclaimer: That meant 'bro' as in 'brother' or 'brotherfromanothermother'.)

Thought I'd make sure to say hi and let you know that I know you cool.

[thereismore]

82. Jesus Christ, you are scared to be alerted/hid for calling someone a bro?

That's a sad commentary for this site. You are cool too. I am proud to be your bro.

[bravenak]

84. Not scared! Brave - in AK?

Yeah. Peopl like the jury system. Just like the one at the courthouse downtown. Doesn't not work in my favor, lol!

[thereismore]

85. I... get it. Brave'n'AK. Do you like AK better than south central LA? nt

[bravenak]

86. No and yes.

I like LA better just on GP. Then. I read my facebook. Then I hate them all. So I never post there.
If they could all just stop trying to be gangster rappers I could go home. But having those idiots drag me round to the 'studio' irritates because they refuse to listen to me. I said, " you cannot be a good rapper unless you know words! Please read a book.' Nobody listened. They still suck.

Here? Life is so boring. I always had something to get into there.
Here just work school and try to find snacks.

[thereismore]

87. Regarding snacks, I heard a girl sold thousands of girl scout cookies just outside a dispensary.

In an hour.

[bravenak]

89. Daaaamn!!

I would have been in line. Both lines!

[thereismore]

83. Jesus Christ, you are scared to be alerted/hid for calling someone a bro?

That's a sad commentary for this site. I am proud to be your bro.

[JustAnotherGen]

79. To get me to vote in the Primary

My back up plan is - can Clinton or Sanders throw elbows and put down the opposition.

Harsh language? Harsh times.

Plan A was a detailed path forward.

Plan B - since they won't be able to get much done until we oust the Republicans from the House -

Who can inflict more pain on the House after they put down the Republican candidate.

[Logical]

43. Hillary is not a liberal but i doubt you care. Nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

47. I'm not voting for Hillary and don't care to talk about her. I want to know what BERNIE is doing.

Stop deflecting. And you don't know shit about me.

[Logical]

49. I think i do. Nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

51. You think you do what? You know nothing!

[Logical]

52. Yep! Nt

[noretreatnosurrender]

111. Great post

As a Sanders supporter I find it very helpful to see others who don't support him critique the campaign in a thoughtful manner as you have done here. Thank you.

[LexVegas]

5. He can earn 10% or less maybe. nt

[jonestonesusa]

13. He won 34% of nonwhite voters in Iowa

Not sure how of how much black support but it was probably higher than 10%.

[TCJ70]

6. It would be great if he did...

...his whole focus is on improving domestic policy. Regardless of race, what do most people want at a basic level? Security, both financial and health, a roof over their heads, and a meal. By focusing on wealth disparity and the governments messed up priorities, Sanders message should resonate with everyone. Somehow, Hillary has convinced people that she'll somehow get more done with the way things are, while Sanders is putting together a group to change things for the foreseeable future.

Ultimately, Sanders wants more of your dollars in your pocket while re-orienting government towards raising our standard of living. This is a good thing for everyone.

[NurseJackie]

7. I seriously doubt it. It's clear who Bernie is and what he stands for.

At this late date, any change in messaging to appeal to minority voters would be seen for what it is. People would likely view it as a cynical attempt for last-minute pandering ... basically an "afterthought".

Nobody want to be an afterthought.

Bernie will not be the nominee.

[Uponthegears]

11. I think

The bigger concern for Hillary is that once we turn to look at policy, we will see where SHE stands.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

48. Sigh. We already KNOW where she stands. We've known Hillary Clinton for at least 30 years.

[Uponthegears]

97. I had to go

through your recs and profile to make sure you weren't joking.

TELL ME what Hillary has done to stand with people of color in those "30 years."

Where was she after the cold-blooded murders of Tamir Rice, Eric Garner and Michael Brown?

Where was she when Eric Holder wouldn't call a federal grand jury in any of them?

Where was SHE on reparations?

Where was she on the RACIST "tough on crime" meme?

Where was she on capital punishment

What are the great things she has done?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

158. What the fuck? You didn't do enough research on me, because if you had, you would have

known that I can't stand Hillary Clinton. That is well known here at DU.

If you're going to stalk me, at least get your shit straight.

[Uponthegears]

163. Anger issues

I don't care who you hate. I care about who you won't compare head to head.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

167. No anger issues, sweetheart. I say it plain and clear. No need to be angry.

Neither candidate speaks to me, so you need to deal with that and keep it moving.

[Uponthegears]

194. Fair enough

They don't speak to me either, for reasons that are fairly apparent.

Unfortunately, I have to pick one or sit out, so I am going with the one who I think will do the best overall.

Stay Strong

[RoccoR5955]

8. He shall do it.

With the endorsements he has gotten from POC, he shall get it, and win the nomination. It will involve a lot of work, but he shall get it.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. Endorsements aren't a big deal to me

It won't influence me.

I don't think we are as susceptible to that. He has to prove he's a winning horse. LiberalStalwart said it well - we need to know you will destroy the opposition.

I'll take it a step further - can he and hs campaign be vicious in the General Election?

That's what he needs to show at the forum this week. The brushing the dirt off the shoulder thing by Obama is his way. We "get" it.

I need to see his utter contempt for Republicans and my fear is that what will appeal to me - won't appeal to his long term supporters.

[99Forever]

9. ...

:yawn:

[1StrongBlackMan]

10. I suspect that question is being answered ...

and the answer is, largely, and to the dismay of the non-Black left, "No."

But the more prescient question is: can Bernie win enough of the Black vote that do NOT primarily self-identify as Democratic, i.e., young folks, to remain competitive?

This answer remains: "Stay tuned!"

[thereismore]

30. Let's see what he does at the black issues forum this Friday. It's his chance. Hillary declined to

come.

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. Why was the last sentence necessary? ...

I think what Bernie supporters fail to understand .. and is the cause of much friction between them and the Black electorate ... our like/dislike, support/non-support of one candidate is independent of the other candidate.

The line we are constantly fed is: "Bernie is best for you because ...", which is patronizing; but, fine ... and you lose us with, "But Hillary isn't/hasn't done {this or that} for you."

Can you understand that?

[thereismore]

34. It wasn't necessary, but it is factual, and by the way it irks you I'd say that privately

you wish she hadn't declined.

[1StrongBlackMan]

45. No, it was necessary ...

And, no ... the fact that she declined to attend does not irk me because as I have stated my consideration of her as a candidate is independent of my consideration of Bernie as a candidate.

[thereismore]

35. And BTW, I stopped saying "this is good for you black people" some time ago. I saw the error of that

See this thread? http://www.democraticunderground.com/118738546

[chervilant]

12. This, despite the fact

that a number of prominent Black Americans have endorsed Senator Sanders?

I wonder if you've read this, a well-written article by a feminist millennial. I especially appreciate this:

If anything concerns me at this pivotal moment, it's not the revolutionary tremors of the youth. Given the Great American Trash Fire we have inherited, this rebellion strikes me as exceedingly reasonable. Pick a crisis, America: Child poverty? Inexcusable. Medical debt? Immoral. For-profit prison? Medieval. Climate change? Apocalyptic. The Middle East is our Vietnam. Flint, the canary in our coal mine. Tamir Rice, our martyred saint. This place is a mess. We're due for a hard rain.

[hack89]

21. Even more have endorsed Hillary

so I am not sure it will make a difference for Bernie.

[chervilant]

28. This:

Michelle Alexander, law professor at Ohio State University and author of “The New Jim Crow,” says Hillary and Bill Clinton hurt African-American families with “their boastful embrace of the mass incarceration machine and their total capitulation to the right-wing narrative on race, crime, welfare and taxes.”

And, this:

Hillary Clinton may have deep brand recognition, but she sure as hell doesn't have a fail-proof firewall with black voters. She isn't even truly progressive on many issues that matter to black voters. Ta-Nehisi Coates, in a recent editorial, made it clear that nobody should be surprised by this. He said:

"Hillary Clinton has no interest in being labeled radical, left-wing, or even liberal. Thus announcing that Clinton doesn’t support reparations is akin to announcing that Ted Cruz doesn’t support a woman’s right to choose. The position is certainly wrong. But it is hardly a surprise, and doesn't run counter to the candidate’s chosen name....Voters, and black voters particularly, should never forget that Bill Clinton passed arguably the most immoral ‘anti-crime’ bill in American history, and that Hillary Clinton aided its passage through her invocation of the super-predator myth."

[Rocky the Leprechaun]

44. I haven't and never will.

[hack89]

57. That's nice. nt

[chervilant]

210. I just watched Erica Garner's ad for Bernie.

I stand with Erica in support of Bernie, and in support of her activism to end murders of our Black brethren by corrupt, racist police.

[hack89]

212. That's nice. nt

[chervilant]

213. All of Bernie's campaign ads

are amazing!

Feel the BERN!

#NotMeUs

[hack89]

214. Ok. Nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

162. Stop it! Black people don't give a shit about black endorsements! We think for ourselves! Just stop!

So if you're a woman, you're going to do whatever a woman in a position of power says to do? I hope not.

To do so is not only offensive, it is quite racist.

Stop it, please!

[chervilant]

173. Puh-leeze!!!

So, we can talk about Black leaders endorsing Hi11ary, but NOT about Black leaders endorsing Sanders?

And, when did you get elected to speak for all Black people? "We think for ourselves"?!? Who is the "we" to whom you refer--all Black people in the United States? I am certain that every human being on this planet thinks for themselves!

Since Killer Mike spoke out for Bernie, I've watched the numbers in the surveys shifting, and I think he's winning support from more Black Americans, especially our millennials. And, I'm confident those Black Americans who've decided to support Bernie thought for themselves.

BTW, sharing resources is NOT the equivalent of telling you how to think, or for whom to vote.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

174. Again, for the millionth time: I could give a shit about black endorsements, PERIOD!

That you cannot exercise critical thinking skills is not my fault.

[chervilant]

176. ...

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

178. Make sure you take a warm bottle with you.

[Scott m. Etches]

208. You do see the irony, I hope.

Black people don't give a shit about black endorsements! We think for ourselves! - Liberal_Stalwart71

You seem to be speaking for Black people asserting that no one can speak for them.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

15. Here are the key passages for me...

"The turning point for Sanders among many African Americans was when the candidate fluffed his response to a Black Lives Matter protest at his rally in Seattle last August, an incident that outraged his supporters.

Yet that incident only underscored a fraught history between the black community and the white left. The white left in America has often asked black America to subordinate the fight against racism for a collective struggle against class divisions. That demand ignores the fact that racism overlays and complicates every aspect of American life.

In addition, to some young black voters, Sanders’ answer to the question of reparations for the descendants of slavery had been disappointingly lacklustre, again showing a misunderstanding of how race and class intersect.

For others, Sanders’ words sound like idealism that isn’t rooted in a tangible plan. Job creation, single-payer healthcare and free college are great ideas but would require huge political capital to become reality. To the black Democratic establishment, Clinton seems more plausible."

White liberals have been telling black people how to vote for decades.

NO MORE!!

We vote how the fuck we want to vote.

Syreeta McFadden at The Guardian has been doing an excellent job capturing the thoughts of black voters.

[el_bryanto]

18. Isn't the purpose of a campaign to tell people how to vote?

I've had a hard time understanding that last part of the argument. Sanders and Clinton (and our republican friends) are all going to tell people that they should vote for them, right? While I doubt many conservatives are going to spend a lot of time going after the black vote; they probably will still have some statement on record arguing that despite appearances they really are what's best for the black community. So it's not surprising that both Clinton and Sanders are going to seek for votes in the black community; nor is it surprising that some black people will go for Sanders and some will go for Clinton - more for Clinton at the present time.

Bryant

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

22. No, that's not the purpose of a campaign. The purpose of a campaign is to tell people about YOUR

platform and what YOU are going to do for them through your platform.

The purpose of a campaign is to convince people to vote for you because your platform offers more than your opponents'.

The purpose is NOT to lecture and talk down to people who may not yet be open to your ideas.

You have to convince people. You have to encourage people.

You don't have to talk down to people, belittle or condescend.

Bernie is not capturing the hearts of black people because he, some of his surrogates, and MANY of his fanatics are arrogant, condescending, and yes, many of his white supporters have been racist towards black voters--almost like HRC supporters were back in 2008.

People don't like to be talked down to. They don't like to be lectured.

Let people vote the way they want to.

White liberals really need to stop patronizing black voters.

We do what we want to do. We have a mind of our own.

If we don't support your candidate, you'll have to deal with that.

[el_bryanto]

24. Nobody is stopping anybody from voting anyway they want to

But I don't know that there's any way to tell someone they are mistaken without it coming off as a bit arrogant and/or condescending. Certainly I've read enough Hillary Clinton supporters saying that Bernie supporters are unrealistic people living in a fantasy world.

But if you feel that Hillary Clinton is the best candidate for the job; I respectfully disagree, but you are certainly entitled to support her as you wish.

Bryant

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

25. I don't feel that either candidate is best for the job. Neither of them!

Please stop with the condescension. It doesn't work.

[el_bryanto]

26. What did I say that was condescending? nt

[bettyellen]

64. the part about "being mistaken".

[el_bryanto]

67. What would have been a better phrase to use? We clearly disagree.

Liberal Stalwart and myself I mean.

[Bobbie Jo]

78. "Disagree," is sufficient.

"Mistaken" implies that he is wrong for holding a different opinion.

He isn't wrong, he just happens to disagree with you. Simple enough.

[1StrongBlackMan]

38. LOL ...

But I don't know that there's any way to tell someone they are mistaken without it coming off as a bit arrogant and/or condescending.

That's the problem!

There isn't ... because to do so assumes that YOU have greater wisdom/knowledge of what is best for that person, than the person you a telling.

[BKH70041]

56. Agreed

The phrase I see here -- Voting against their own self-interest -- immediately comes to mind. I don't care to whom the reference is being made, it's very arrogant and condescending.

Haven't seen you in a while. Hope all is well.

[1StrongBlackMan]

60. Absolutely ...

what people choose to not understand is everyone votes what is most valued to them.

[el_bryanto]

59. Fair enough - I think voting for Sanders will be better than voting for Clinton

I think that you and every other person on this board should support Sanders over Clinton. Under what circumstances can I say that without being condescending?

On another note, do you think I should support Clinton in the primary?

Bryant

[1StrongBlackMan]

186. I will say that I am undecided whether I will vote for anyone to represent the Democrats ...

in my state's primary ... if the contest goes that far.

But if I do, it will be for HRC, because in my estimation, she has the best G/E chance. If you agree, then, yes ... I think you should support HRC ... If not, oh well.

[noretreatnosurrender]

116. Totally Understand this one

As a woman I understand that statement loud and clear. Sadly women have always been expected by a big share of our leftist brothers to put "our" issues, the ones specific to our gender, on the back burner because other issues were more "important" and had to come first. Oh, I hear you on that one.

[bravenak]

120. She is tooo intelligent.

I read her posts to correct myself with, lol.

[craigmatic]

139. ^This. Bernie can promise single payer but somehow reparations doesn't seem realistic to him.

It's almost funny. Hillary does the same song and dance democrats have been doing for decades with black people- show up at a church and sing then talk about voting rights but never have a tangible policy that will benefit black people like business loans for blacks or new federal home loans for us. I'm tired of it and I'm not really excited about this election. There are plenty of people who feel the same way I do. I guess I'd vote for Sanders if I had to pick one but I'm not an enthusiastic supporter.

[bravenak]

144. I know how you feel

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

180. I'm right where you are, Craigmatic. We all know who HRC is. We've known her for

many years. But Sanders hasn't done much to sway me. I don't care how many black representatives he sends out to exploit. Neither candidate has captured my vote right now.

It's looking like I'll vote only for down ticket races.

[Scott m. Etches]

19. Not everyone makes decisions in their best interests

FACT: In 1963 Bernie Sanders Marched With MLK Jr on Washington DC's "I Have A Dream Speech". In 1964, Hillary Clinton Campaigned for Sen Goldwater who Promised to Racially Re-Segregate the Nation & Overturn the Civil Rights Act.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

23. You know what's in black people's best interests? No you don't. Just stop being racist.

[Scott m. Etches]

31. No matter the race, sex, sexual orientation or any phenotypical characteristic.

Are you suggesting that it is in the best interests for people over 6 feet tall(for sake of argument) to select a candidate who seeks to segregate people over 6 feet tall or someone who seeks to have all people over 6 feet tall have equal rights within the society?

Even if I was four feet tall it would be obvious which is in the best interests of people over 6 feet tall. The mere fact that you suggest that as a person height challenged I could not state the obvious as to what best serves the interests of tall people is indeed indicative of someone's FOOTism.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

33. Stop talking down to black people. We vote how we want. Period! Bernie Sanders will lose after NH.

I can't wait! I'm starting to hate him and his fanatical supporters.

[Scott m. Etches]

36. I am only 4 foot tall, you are 6 feet.

Who is talking down to whom when you suggest I am not good enough for an opinion on what best serves the interests of tall people when simply reiterating historical political positions of political candidates demonstrated by their actions and suggesting one is in the best interests over anothers?

Consider this perspective, the right to vote for women.

Under your assertion that if one is not of a certain constituency then one should not express an opinion on what might best serve the interests of that said population, then how would women ever have gotten the right to vote?

Men obviously expressed their opinions in the form of votes to give women such a right. Had they followed your advice we would still be living in a misogynistic state.

Now if you have the interests of the U.S. black population at heart then consider that it only comprises just under 15% of the US population. If indeed you want equal rights(or currently the right not to be shot for walking home) then what purpose does it serve you to disenfranchise other groups for recognizing what is in their best interests?

[noretreatnosurrender]

117. Very offensive

Men obviously expressed their opinions in the form of votes to give women such a right.

Men didn't "give" women anything. It was our RIGHT and we went through hell to claim it.

Your last paragraph is a real loo loo. I won't even touch that but I will say -

As a Sanders supporter I wish you would stop trying to get votes for Sanders because you are doing more damage than you realize.

[Scott m. Etches]

147. Sooooooo.....

....women voted to give women the vote when they didn't have a vote?

Certainly the suffragette movement lobbied the male vote to empower them but at the end of the day, it was men who voted at that time.

......and at that time before such vote it was not a 'RIGHT'.

P.S. Who said I was a Sanders supporter, not me. I am for Democracy though the Swiss or Irish have not approved my visas yet.

[jfern]

146. You're not helping Bernie

[Scott m. Etches]

148. Didn't know Bernie needs my help.

Having my own opinions and willing to express them is not conducive to following anyone. Once a democratic candidate advocates democratic values(direct democracy, s.t.v., etc.) rather than just conforming outcomes of flawed processes, I could consider curtailing my opinions.

[frylock]

62. Wow.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

63. Forgive me for being upset. Now that I've calmed down, let me go further...

I hope to get you to understand why many black voters are not with Bernie Sanders right now:

I am a political scientist by training, and would argue that we do have a responsibility as citizens to know these candidates and their record, what they stand for, and their policy platforms. Then, make a decision based on that. I would never suggest that people vote against their best interests or not vote at all. That would be irresponsible. But, I also accept that when people do make their decision, they do so in good faith; they have a right to vote for whomever they want and for whatever reason they want.

So, let me see if I can shed some light on this phenomenon of black voters supporting Clinton rather than Sanders...

In my conversations with black voters, they tell me that their heart tells them that Bernie Sanders may be the better candidate when it comes to character, record, and policy positions. However, they also want to vote strategically; that is, for the candidate who they feel can beat the Republicans.

So when Bernie supporters are seeing the direction black voters are going, why deride them? These voters are thinking strategically. They want the candidate who can WIN and not just with lofty ideas, regardless of how much they may agree with them.

They don't like Hillary Clinton much. That, to me, is clear. But they still seem to love Bill Clinton. When it comes to his record, no matter what I tell them--what about NAFTA, the Crime Bill, Glass-Stegall--it's not that they don't care; it's just that Bill Clinton was able to connect with them in a way that even Obama had problems with at the beginning.

That last point brings me to another point regarding Sanders:

If he could somehow connect more with black voters, apart from his record, and convince them that he can get what he's promising done, I think he has a chance.

But, as I stated earlier, black voters are STRATEGIC! This has always been true. Black voters have supported white candidates over black candidates since we could vote, so it's not about race and never has been. (Were that the case, say hello to presidents Jackson, Sharpton, Keyes, Cain...and Ben Carson who is beloved in the black community but will never command the black vote.) I'm giving this example because earlier you wrote of "identity politics" and that black voters are putting identity politics over their own best interests. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's the complete opposite, really, and history has shown this. More often than not, blacks have sided with the Democratic Party collectively over their own collective interests---just ask the CBC who went along with Bill Clinton's disastrous Crime Bill, NAFTA, welfare reform--all while remaining quiet on his Sistah Souljah moment.

When I assert that black voters are strategic, they want to be convinced that things will happen; that Republicans can be beaten. Obama had to prove himself even when faced with the fact that the vast majority of black voters were in Clinton's camp.

This has to be true also for Bernie Sanders. Like Obama, the ideals are there. The issues are there, for the most part. His record is near perfect. But can he win? And after he wins, can he get it done---all while confronted with ideological factions in his own party, not to mention the Republicans?

This is what Bernie Sanders' supporters are ignoring. Many are too busy ridiculing and deriding black people for their stance. Rather than listening and trying to understand--and then trying to connect to the Sanders team to encourage more inclusivity, I'm seeing the opposite. And that's the problem.

I'm going to be honest, here, too: Despite some disappointment with President Obama, black people still love and revere him! We understand what he has faced. We are frustrated that he couldn't get more done, but we don't blame him! Sanders is hurting with black voters because it sounds like he and his supporters don't like President Obama very much---or, at the very least, they blame Obama rather than the Republicans for the obstruction. It seems that Sanders and many (not all) of his supporters have a special disdain for the president, and that doesn't sit very well with black voters. I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

I was once a Bernie supporter. I loathe the Clintons. I now support neither candidate.

Convince me to go back to Bernie. And do it without insulting me or my people. Do it without derision or arrogance.

If you can't convince people without insulting them or their intelligence, then leave us alone for good.

[Arazi]

75. GREAT post! Sanders definitely has a problem connecting with POC

Sanders and his supporters should study your post!



Rebkeh in the Sanders group has a very similar post.

I'm very appreciative of your thoughts on this. Can I share it with some friends? I'll link back to here and you.

Again thank you

[JustAnotherGen]

90. This point can't be made enough

But, as I stated earlier, black voters are STRATEGIC! This has always been true. Black voters have supported white candidates over black candidates since we could vote, so it's not about race and never has been. (Were that the case, say hello to presidents Jackson, Sharpton, Keyes, Cain...and Ben Carson who is beloved in the black community but will never command the black vote.) I'm giving this example because earlier you wrote of "identity politics" and that black voters are putting identity politics over their own best interests. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's the complete opposite, really, and history has shown this. More often than not, blacks have sided with the Democratic Party collectively over their own collective interests---just ask the CBC who went along with Bill Clinton's disastrous Crime Bill, NAFTA, welfare reform--all while remaining quiet on his Sistah Souljah moment.

For all of it. But especially that!

[lovemydog]

91. This is one of the best posts I've read here in GDP

in quite a while. Thanks.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

157. Much, much appreciated. Sad that rather than seek understanding, there's still arrogance displayed.

Oh well, I tried.

[lovemydog]

165. True. Sometimes I wade in here optimistic

that we're all seeking understanding. That notion is dispelled by reading the headstrong ignorance & arrogance, lol.

It's wonderful finding those who seek further understanding. My heart is lifted communicating in that manner. It's infinite, what we can learn from each other.

[Rilgin]

123. Your use of strategic implies and patronizes other groups as not strategic.

Are you saying only poc are strategic? Or are you just saying pic are smarter?. Rather than such broad claims why don't you just say you are a Hillary supporter or you have questions about electability.

Claiming the mantle of strategic for only one group is patronizing exactly what you are accusing others.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

156. No it doesn't. I'm speaking only of the segment of the population to which I belong.

I can't speak on issues related to how whites, Hispanics, Asians or anyone else votes.

Nowhere in my post did I state or imply that ONLY black Americans are strategic voters. That's what YOU read into what I wrote.

Nice deflection, but it doesn't work on me.

[Rilgin]

159. Study Logical equals -- It might not be your intention but it is a logical inference from your post

Your Statement in a nutshell

Black Voters support Hillary

This is because they are Strategic

This boils down logically to

Strategic Voters support Hillary

Logic allows you to infer from these statements the following

If you do not support Hillary, you are not strategic

This may not be your intention but is the danger of taking a generic quality "strategic thinking" and explaining a voting difference between groups on that basis. You are implying the group that has a different voting pattern does not have the generic quantity

Strategic Thinking is not a racial quantity. It is not the same thing as saying, "My group has issues unique to my group and this candidate does not speak to that issue". It is basically saying, My groups is smart and if your group thinks differently. Thus, by implcation, they can not be smart.

Again, I am sure its not your intention but you might think about implications about claiming a specific generic quality for someone on the basis of their race, gender, or other non-generic characteristic.

To Make it easy for you. Hillary runs saying "Vote for me because I am experienced". Inherently she is saying the other candidate is not experienced even though she didnt say that other than by logical implication. Otherwise there is no reason for her claim of experience. The same holds for a claim that my group is strategic or smart or hard working (you remember this one).

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

160. Study my ass.

[John Poet]

145. I just want to say that I hope you will come back to us,

and I am sorry that some (white) Bernie supporters have said things that you and other POC have found to be offensive.

I'm sure most of them are not doing that intentionally... and that perhaps there is a communication problem on OUR part, when we use certain phrases in ignorance that set off alarm bells when addressed to POC. I hope I don't fall into that trap here, but as a white person, I now know that I am much more ignorant about some things concerning race than I used to think, so I am going to request your patience with me in advance, just in case I put anything awkwardly...

I have stayed almost entirely out of these conversations since Netroots, and instead tried to just listen to what POC were saying about these issues... and I have thereby learned some things about racial attitudes and institutional racism, and even phrase choices considered racially offensive by POC, which I previously did not understand. Now I just hope I can retain it all.

One idea that particularly got through to me, is that POC don't generally give the same level of "importance" to the various economic inequality issues taken up by Bernie Sanders that white liberals do--- BECAUSE they are more worried about getting home at night without getting SHOT by police, or about their children getting home safe at night without being arrested or SHOT by police-- and when you are feeling that kind of threat upon your very life, and the lives of those you love, by the very institutions of government, then it is very understandably hard for you to get too excited about some politician who says he wants to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour-- you're more interested in knowing "what are you going to do to keep cops from killing me or my kids on the way home from the grocery store?" That's one of the major concepts I took out of the long discussion here over the #BlackLivesMatter protests. I think that just about cuts-to-the-chase; have I got it right?

I did not understand that at first, but I hope I get it NOW.

I know that Bernie does get that, and he has been speaking to those issues since shortly after the protests. I wish he would do it more, or that it would be reported more widely when he does.

The TV said he is going to be in Harlem tomorrow, and there is that POC issues forum coming up which was mentioned earlier. I am hopeful that he can discuss these issues in more depth in these venues.

I know that President Obama has not been able to do as much as he or I had hoped he might have accomplished, because of the make-up of the congress... but, he's still my President too. He has sometimes done things with which I didn't agree, but I hope I was never disrespectful. Nobody is ever going to be 100% happy with anyone, except maybe themselves, after all. When the discussion came up about the possibility of a primary opponent prior to 2012, I argued strenuously against the idea on DailyKos and was glad the idea was dropped. I was not frequenting DU at that time. I am very proud that this country managed to elect its first African-American president with Obama. I will admit-- at the time, I didn't think the country as a whole was ready, although I did decide to hitch my hopes to his shortly after his initial victories. I was very happy to be proven wrong-- about the country being willing to elect him.

On the electability issue, well-- Bernie did just win the New Hampshire primary resoundingly, by a higher percentage than I expected him to do. He is generating a high level of excitement among younger voters who traditionally have trouble showing up to vote, but whom President Obama was likewise able to inspire to turn out to vote for him. It has also been reported that Bernie managed to get 48% of the votes of POC in New Hampshire. The number of small financial contributors supporting Bernie has surpassed even the previous record numbers who financially supported President Obama. I find that frankly astounding myself.

POC and young people are obviously BOTH CRITICAL to any hopes of a Democratic victory in the fall. I think if we can somehow bring them both together again, as President Obama managed to do, we would be unstoppable in the fall.

I hope that Bernie can adequately address the issues of particular concern to you, that you might decide to support him once again. Please try to remember (and I know it could be hard in this place sometimes) that Bernie does not equal his supporters. I think I can say with confidence that he IS a better man than many of his supporters, I know he's a better man than me.

If in the end you don't decide to support him, I hope people here will respect that decision. It is absolutely yours to make. Everyone ultimately has to decide for themselves, what they believe is the right thing to do. I wish you well.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

161. On the charge that POC don't give the same weight to economic issues as we do race...

Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2016, 09:13 AM - Edit history (2)

I'm not sure that's 100% true. It's just that most of us firmly believe that race permeates every aspect of life. It's the racism that comes first. That's why there's economic inequality. For instance, the racism leads the dominant society to treat a black man with a college degree worse than a white man with a high school diploma. It's racism that leads store keepers to follow black women around the store, fearing that they'll steal something--even when those black women have advanced degrees.

It's racism that came first--that when police officers accosted Dr. Henry Louis Gates, Jr. in front of his own home. The cop didn't ask him to prove that he had a degree or show him evidence that he's in the middle- to upper-class. The cop didn't ask Dr. Gates to show proof that he has a doctorate.

And that's what Bernie Sanders and his supporters do not seem to understand (and many of them, in my view, DO understand; they are just being dishonest).

That many white liberals cannot (or will not) accept that race matters and quite often MORESO than class, that is what's most frustrating to people of color.

Maybe they believe that since they don't see themselves as racist, therefore racism doesn't exist or isn't that big of a problem---therefore, black people should be more concerned with economic issues than race.

But we're trying to get you to see the arrogance in that kind of thinking. White people cannot possibly understand what POC go through; so why then deride us, belittle us, tell us that we're not making the right decisions, voting against our best interests when historically that has never been the case? It's just frustrating and yes, patronizing.

We're asking white liberals, especially, to stop this behavior. We know that white conservatives are the enemy. But if liberals are truly on our side, then they should really stop with the condescension. Seek understanding. Stop telling us what's best for us. It's incredibly insulting. We are not children and we are not dumb.

These words are not directly at you; just responding to give a bit of illustration of what's going on in the community from my standpoint. Of course I don't speak for black people and never would I try. On the other hand, we do share similar experiences, so I feel safe sharing those experiences.

And thanks in advance for being open to understanding.

[John Poet]

196. Of course race matters more than class, when one is

confronted by a policeman--
and by other institutions as well.


Racist attitudes are not only hate or prejudice, I've learned,
but even reactions or distinctions one may make,
sometimes without even fully realizing that one is doing it.

One can have the best of intentions,
and still fail in this regard because of attitudes and "norms"
that have been drilled into people from childhood onward,
by institutional racism and society in general.


Thank you for your reply.

[PeaceNikki]

206. Thank you for taking the time to help us all understand.

[bravenak]

70. Umm hmm.

I feel your pain. I really did want to vote for Sanders. A little to the right of me but I could deal. Now? Hmm. It would take alot to get me up on election day if he won this primary.

[Scott m. Etches]

152. I also note, I made no recommendation

I presented a historical fact on two positions candidates have supported in the past.

Not only did you 'assume' who I supported but then resorted to an ad hominem logical fallacy to support your presumptions.

[Orsino]

37. And only started a few months ago.

If you're here to remind us that Clinton has been a famous Democrat for many years, I assure you we are all aware of that.

The more important question is whether Sanders' message will resonate with enough voters in time to win him the nomination over a rock-star Dem.

[jillan]

39. Time will tell, won't it?

[whatchamacallit]

46. Don't know. I'm voting for Bernie.

[Bread and Circus]

53. I don't know, can he? Or is it a hopeless cause?

[HooptieWagon]

54. If blacks are satisfied with the Clintons record,...

...then they should vote for Hillary. Bernie will continue to be a strong supporter of PoC when elected, whether they support him or not.

[bravenak]

72. Who said we were satisfied?

We have never been satisfied by a candidate, ever.

Bernie just has not appealed to us as a group. Has not put in the time like he has with you. A lack of attention gets Hillary a presidential pen. I said this in July. Still true. Hillary wearing a dashiki and crip walking up to the Rose Garden with bill beat boxing and chlesea rapping like iggy.

[Live and Learn]

132. Well, if Hillary wins, I don't want to hear you complaining since you have done all in your power

to keep POC from voting for Bernie.

Luckily for all of us, I don't think you speak for most POC. And most people see that the Clinton policies have done nothing but hurt the majority of people of all races.

Your vendetta against Bernie supporters is noted but it is NOT a good reason to stick POC with more policies that result in less pay, less jobs, less safety net help and more imprisonment.

[bravenak]

134. You aint gotta read my posts.

If you hate them so. I will complain and bitch and moan until I feel good and done.

Now, if people want to change strategies and attempt to be intersectional and stop the condescending nonsense, I and others like myself who have no feelings of love for any politician, but a desire for respect for black people and as voters would have nothing left to say.

[Live and Learn]

137. Intersectional? I won't be hearing from many on DU after the primaries, regardless of who wins.

I have decided to actually make use of the ignore feature as soon as it is over. I really don't need to see the complete and utter nonsense posted by some here.

[Dawson Leery]

58. Bashing the first Black President is not helpful.

There is an understandable sense of pride for a historically oppressed group to have a President of their background.
Berns does not understand this, clearly.

There is a desire within the white affluent left to want to (hypocritically) overturn the system (i.e Bill Ayres).

The scene from Forest Gump, where Jennie is torn between her childhood friend (Forest) and her radicalized boyfriend (Wesley), best
demonstrates this phenom.
Wesley assaults Jennie across the face for refusing to take an order from he.

There is a sense of arrogance and entitlement among the extremes on both sides.

Wesley has much in common with the teaparty.

[bravenak]

69. The entitlement is astounding.

The pride will be the downfall.

[Fast Walker 52]

74. when did he "bash" Obama?

[JustAnotherGen]

88. He's writing about

The "primary him" language from Sanders in 2012.

[Fast Walker 52]

108. ah, thanks.

[Nanjeanne]

93. Actually Clinton in 2008 bashed Obama a lot more than Sanders ever did . . . But

as far as Sanders winning the black vote - I think the answer is

Yes . . . incrementally!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

199. There's no time for "incrementally". SC and NV are only weeks away.

I'm not convinced that Bernie Sanders can win in more racially diverse states.

Maybe if he beats Hillary in SC, I'll be convinced, but I'm just not.

[JRLeft]

94. Yep, blacks and Latinos.

[bravenak]

95. He could.

But he wont cause he took too long to get down in the dirt. You know you have to come to us and show us some muscle. We want to know he fights Republicans. He aint shown no teeth to them. He better get his butt over somewhere and beat up on trump. That will get attention. He rhetorically kicks trumps ass he gets votes. With that beatdown at the trump rally, all my people are pissed. Want somebody to take trump down a peg or two.

[Dawson Leery]

101. Jim Clyburn was impressed with Hillary's win in Iowa.

So much that he is considering endorsing her before SC and putting the CBC's machinery behind her campaign.
That would lock Berns out of SC.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

166. I think Bernie Sanders has no chance in SC, with or without JC's endorsement.

[Dawson Leery]

168. We need to lock him out it though.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

170. What do you mean, "lock him out"? We're Democrats. We don't behave like Republicans.

[mcar]

96. K&R

[Fearless]

98. HE DID TONIGHT.

[bravenak]

99. I did not see african american vote totals with him winning

Can I have that link? I have been looking everywhere.

[cherokeeprogressive]

103. Notice there are three young black supporters behind him on the stage.

Now go ahead and say they're the only three in the room.

[bravenak]

110. I want to. I really want to say it.

Trying to be happy for your win. It's hard.

[Logical]

112. Wow, what is your problem? Mad that Blacks in NH like Bernie? nt

[bravenak]

113. Can't stand jokes?nt

[Logical]

114. Hard to tell when you are serious or joking. Sounds the same to me. nt

[bravenak]

115. Joking 90 percent of the time

[m-lekktor]

104. I saw them somewhere and I don't think he won them, just under half voted for him

Probably 4 of the 10 AA's who live in NH voted for him! LOL...i kid.

[bravenak]

109. Hahahaha!!!!

That was hella funny on SNL. Cough wipe cough!! I bet he shook the hands this time and just used purell.

[m-lekktor]

118. hehe! seriously though

I have spent lots of time in New Hampshire in the past and it is a politically odd state. I would never dare predict anything futuristically based on what happens in New Hampshire! I AM surprised at this result though only because everybody i ever knew there no matter what party seemed to have an anti tax libertarian bent to them therefore why would they vote for a socialist?. Also, I am a glass half empty type of guy so , as a Bernie supporter, I am not reading much into this result

[bravenak]

119. I keep trying not to be a party pooper

It's kinda wrong since my feelings are not involved in the candidates.

I think that I read that no Democrat since Carter has won HN and the Whitehouse both. Ti,e to make history? Could happen.

I think this is a good thing for all of us since Bernie's big win makes the Republicans look small time.

[m-lekktor]

121. I am curious to see how things turn out in a more diverse states.

I agree with those who believe the first few primaries should be in bigger, more ethnically diverse states. I have no idea what could happen. I would be surprised if Hilary didn't win to be honest.

You should be how you feel, party pooper or not.

[bravenak]

122. Honestly? Me too. I cant shut up.

Hispanics are not as hard for Hillary as we are. So, I'd pump my funds into the western states and save the pain. It would actually be worth more trying to get hispanics. Ooooh. Wait no. Uh uh. Participation is higher among blacks and the south is necessary. Hmmm. Fire Divine and Co right now, or demote them. Divine aint won in the US since, maybe ever.

This is really interesting. I wish he had a diverse crew at the top. I think its three white dudes? Might be why they did not plan ahead for the diverse states.

How is the SC ground game? That's what you should find out. They should be on the ground already. Weeks ago. Only way to win blacks is to come see us over and over and over and...

Church too. GO!!! It's not even that bad. Way better than Catholic church with the boring and sweet ave marias.

[m-lekktor]

125. I have no idea what is what in SC. the south is a foreign country to me. I am a bicoastal

northeasterner. I will just observe when it happens, I am too lazy to look into things!!. I also am not gonna pontificate about minorities since i am not living their context, I will take your word for it. Of course i have opinions I keep to myself, I am looking at things threw my prism which just consists of "the record" so i scratch my head, but, according to you, it takes more than that(the continual visits) so i will trust your word. I would see continual visits as pandering no matter who the politician is. I guess folks can sense sincerity or not.As a political cynic I would just assume pandering for votes!

[bravenak]

128. They all pander

Thats why I call them politicians.
I wish folks would stop falling in LOVE with them. We give everybody a chance to prove they can beat the republicans. Being good at fighting democrats dont count. You know why. Look at how GOOD WE ARE AT FIGHTING REPUBLICANS, oh my, what fortitude we have, what spines!! So strong.
Yelling about banks is boring. We dont care! Or about oligarchs. Tell us how you plan to kick the republicans asses and we are all ears. This is just skins and shirts. We wanna know what they will do against Paul Ryan.

People say Hillary can be nasty. WE KNOW!! Thats why we are still on her team. Wanna see her rip their facemasks off and foul them.

I think that's the fatal flaw. We see yelling and we be like, ok cool, we mad too! Then we hear its the oligarchs again and our kids like that, but we rool our eyes. Yes. We know. But to blacks everybody is the oligarchy. How can we smack mcconnell around? We want something. Cuss trump out, thats cool, i might vote for that.

Thats why this is so fun. What is going to happen?

Blacks are still mad at the obstruction against Obama. Hillary is too. See? I wish people could see. Bernie should be caught hugging Obama like Chris Christie and if he dont he fucked up.

[vdogg]

106. According to what evidence.

Nonwhite =/= Black. In fact, when you look at the breakdown on CNN of the different races they all say n/a. Where are you getting your data from?

And even at that, Bernie didn't win the non-white vote even though it was close. So what you just stated is patently false.

[EdwardBernays]

105. He is

Standing next to some black people in his victory speech.

So I assume you must be considering changing your vote?

Lol

[noretreatnosurrender]

107. Good Piece

Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2016, 11:40 PM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for posting the link.

The piece you linked to was good but the discussion in the thread is even better.

[Fawke Em]

124. Yes. Not yours. I live in the South.

Expect the landslide.

Thank God.

[bravenak]

126. I expect reality to set in.

[Fawke Em]

142. You know, I used to think you might be right.

Now, I think I might get to be hopeful.

[bravenak]

143. You know. I would not mind.

[itsrobert]

127. As a white person

I don't see why we start our election season off with two states that have no diversity at all.

Seems like a very unfair process to give more weight to these two states.

[bravenak]

129. Me neither.

It makes those contests seem like a circus. Jimmy carter won NH. Last dem to do so and win the white house. They really are not predictive.

[Live and Learn]

130. He just did it in NH. He can and will. nt

[BlueStreak]

131. Hillary has 100% recognition. People barely know about Bernie.

People have known about Hillary, in depth, for 25 years. Black folks are mostly comfortable with the Clintons compared to the alternatives they know. Most simply don't know much about Sanders. But even with that huge advantage for Hillary, the national polling has Sanders almost within MOE. The great news is that Sanders is that close without much black support yet. By the time it is done, that vote will probably split evenly.

[craigmatic]

133. If he wants black votes he needs to change his stance on reparations.

[azurnoir]

171. why him but not Obama?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

181. Two main reasons....

A. Because Obama is NOT running for president (though I wish he could).

and,

B. Because Bernie Sanders pushes the notion that he is a revolutionary candidate who can get things done.

Odd that when it comes to racial justice, it's everything else but. And "economic justice" simply doesn't cut it. Wealthy black people with advanced degrees STILL face racism and racial discrimination. Get rid of racism first, then let's talk economic justice.

[azurnoir]

185. really quoting Ta-Nehisi Coates lines? I believe that was his reasoning , however

Ta-Nehisi Coates Is Voting for Bernie Sanders Despite the Senator's Opposition to Reparations

AMY GOODMAN: Will you be voting for Senator Sanders?

TA-NEHISI COATES: I will be voting for Senator Sanders. I have tried to avoid this question, but, yes, I will be voting for Senator Sanders. I try to avoid that, because I want to write as a journalist—do you know what I mean?—and separate that from my role as, I don’t know, a private citizen. But I don’t think much is accomplished by ducking the question. Yes, I will vote for Senator Sanders. My son influenced me.

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/10/ta_nehisi_coates_is_voting_for

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

197. Again, as I wrote earlier in this thread and many threads like it...

White liberals would do well to listen and stop with the condescension.

Here's another thing: Just because black public figures support Bernie Sanders does not mean that every black person should follow suit. We are capable of thinking and acting for ourselves.

[azurnoir]

198. ........

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=39168

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

200. And? What's your point? Black people think for themselves. Period.

[azurnoir]

202. I would suggest you read my link where I made that quite plain

or were you hoping your title would distract from that?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

203. I apologize. I will read your link, but I've been so frustrated with many of the

Bernie Sanders' supporters.

I'll check it out.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

135. yes

[bravenak]

136. He has to strategize better

Should not have hired Divine and Co. Bad track record.

[Leaseoption]

138. I dont know why Blacks would support Clinton n/t

[SheilaT]

140. Considering he got 48% of the black vote

tonight in New Hampshire, I'd say he's done a lot to close the gap so far.

[840high]

141. Yes he did.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

183. As a southerner myself, I can safely say that Southern Democrats are not like

Northern Democrats.

And BLACK southern Democrats like myself are probably not as liberal as northern black Democrats.

Bernie will lose SC unless there's a miracle. I just don't see it.

[bigwillq]

149. Yes, He Can

We will soon find out.

[bravenak]

150. He better figure out how

[Smarmie Doofus]

151. A snap.

I've been petitioning on the street for Bernie in the Bronx. Fordham Road. 95% PoC. More than half of them "black".

Generally speaking... the people that don't support him don't know about him.

Many have literally never heard of him.

It appears that that's about to change.

May not be the response your looking for but that's the way it is here.

[bravenak]

153. Well then. Just disregard what any of us tell you.

We have no clue how black voters operate. None! I'm sure you know much better just by habding out flyers and talking to us.

[Smarmie Doofus]

154. Figure out why you're so bitter.

Think about that for a long time.

Then get back to me.

[bravenak]

155. Racism is why

It pisses me off all day every day.

[azurnoir]

172. who's racism? Bernies?

[bravenak]

188. DID I SAY HIS NAME?

EVERYTHING IS NOT ABOUT HIM

HE IS NOT IMPORTANT TO ME

[azurnoir]

189. so unimportant you started this thread about him?

[bravenak]

190. So that means everything must be about him?

You know? This is WHY i cannot stand him.

[azurnoir]

191. so you start a thread about Sanders but it's not about him?

but at least you admit it's Sanders himself you don't like

[bravenak]

192. You areally think every single comment has to be about him?

Hahahahaha!!

You are helping him so much. Except your not. This tactic is what we constantly complain to each other about back in blackville.

[azurnoir]

193. ah ha

[jham123]

164. Another Strawman sighting

Bernie won the black vote, so the OP needs to be revised as Bernie didn't have very far to go at all.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

195. Can he get it? vs Does she deserve it?

Hi bravenak, I believe this article, which argues Hillary doesn't deserve the black vote adds "nuance" to the discussion.

http://www.thenation.com/article/hillary-clinton-does-not-deserve-black-peoples-votes/


As I said earlier this morning, Bernie isn't tangible like Hillary is because they don't know him. I'm going to elaborate on that. Bernie is a young, white sensation because he's a social media and YouTube phenom. Bernie is heavily dependent on this medium since he's got to spend a lot of time in every state introducing himself then explaining his platform. I just can't imagine many blacks of any age or gender are turning to social media or YouTube to learn about Bernie. Nina Turner, former Ohio state senator and former Hillary supporter, makes a compelling argument for why Bernie would appeal to black voters. But, like me, her conclusion is the same: it's a heavy lift to convince them. If you haven't heard Nina Turner stump for Bernie, you can find her on YouTube

Lest I forget, the establishment endorsements. They typically do the heavy lifting for their constituents and their constituents rely on them for that.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

201. Some compelling arguments. Good endorsements. Valid points about HRC not

being good for black people.

STILL...

We don't need the lecture.

Black people will vote how they want to and will not be talked down to by white liberals.

End of discussion.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

204. There are plenty of blacks expressing views contrary to those expressed here

We're not your (Clinton) firewall
We're not your token
We didn't get your memo
We'll make our own decision

Someone here has co-opped the black voice and is speaking for all blacks. Since they are pro-Hillary and I'm pro-Bernie, I'm posting evidence to the contrary of their claim. In the end, the person is merely another example of the Clinton bubble - nothing penetrates the bubble.


http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02/10/not-your-firewall-minority-voters-refuse-be-token-clinton-strategy-map

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

205. The same is true of the other side. The Bernie supporters have been just as relentless and offensive

It needs to stop.

Post all the endorsement and articles you want. Nothing sways me unless it's the candidate himself/herself.

Black people aren't children and we're not idiots.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

207. That's an oft used refrain, here

Everyone gets challenged, but I've seen something similar to your final sentence repeated during this discussion.

Good luck with that!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

209. Yeah, thanks. I'm not worried about it. Again, the candidates have to convince me. I remain

unconvinced.

Sanders and Clinton fanatics will just have to accept that rather than the insults.

[workinclasszero]

211. Not good enough Bernie