2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumNew 538.com: Obama re-elect odds at 80.2%...
...with Nate saying that Romney's figure is still "somewhat too conservative" and will continue to increase if more favorable results continue to come in over the next few days. Overall, he concludes, the two candidates are polling about equally post-debate.
Favorable points for Obama: 1) Most of the worst results appear to have come about just after the debates, when the media storm of "Romney dominates" was at its peak, 2) today's Ipsos poll suggests the bounce might be subsiding, and 3) the polls of RVs (less influenced by voter enthusiasm than LVs) are showing less of a move toward Romney.
TroyD
(4,551 posts)I hope this was a learning experience for those who got overconfident.
However, moving on from that . . .
Does Nate factor in the potential positive impact of the new Jobs Report? Hopefully Obama will get a bounce from that and stem the Romney bounce.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)We won't know more until the middle of next week, but I was expecting the re-elect odds to drop, frankly, into the mid-70s at best tonight. I'll take 4:1 (or even 3:1) odds anytime.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Romney had one good night.. but that doesnt make up for hundreds of bad ones.
writes3000
(4,734 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)a bullshit poll that shows Romney winning the black vote 60 to 40. We're doomed.
Here's Nate:
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/06/oct-6-romney-maintains-poll-momentum/
Why the hell are people, including Nate Silver, giving these polls credibility? The poll is utter bullshit. Still, if they want to take these absurd polls seriously an increase Republican delusion, so be it.
"Fair and balanced" is creating the impression that psychos rule this country. You see, Republicans are complaining about the polls so every poll has to be given merit.
Lying is Genius. Greed is good. Vague is brilliant. Cheating is American.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)I can understand not falling into the poll-trutherism if the Right, but I would think an R+17.5 among AAs, plus Obama's approval rating only being at 40%, might suggest that something was seriously off in those samples.
Moses2SandyKoufax
(1,290 posts)The only outliers being a Rasmussen poll, and now this Gravis one. Kinda fishy....
Denzil_DC
(7,242 posts)I believe Nate's reasoning in the past has been that even if a pollster has a pronounced house effect, its results are worth including in his model because they'll supposedly show any trend.
That's all well and good unless the pollster's just making stuff up whenever it suits it.
He does usually give the caveats when he publishes, though, and his model does seem to compensate over the longer term, it just makes things a bit jittery shorter-term if these outliers are included.
has got to pound this race even if it kills them. Otherwise what do they talk about until Nov 6?
Tcbys
(63 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,414 posts)I'll take them!
Moses2SandyKoufax
(1,290 posts)that on October 6th, 2012 Nate Silver had the President's chance of re-election at 80%, you and I would be quite pleased with that forecast.
The next few days might see the numbers going down, however, if PPP and Reuters is correct, it appears it's not a permanent shift, but rather a bounce for Romney.
cheezmaka
(737 posts)We still have the Biden/Ryan debate and Obama's 2nd and 3rd coming up...
Blue Idaho
(5,049 posts)We will see an increasing number of new polling firms with ties to right wing money suddenly appear. Their job will be to throw out chaff and muddy the statistical waters. Lee Atwater would be so proud of his prodigy KKKarl Rove.
Moses2SandyKoufax
(1,290 posts)Most of the polls that have been released since the debate have been conducted by firms that have ties to, and lean toward the GOP (WAA, Rasmussen, Gravis, Purple State). They've also been conducted over just one day. Aside from Rasmussen, I'd never heard of any of them before this election season.
We're also going to see an increase in the number of electoral forecasters in future elections. Don't be surprised to see Fox News hire a "statistician" for 2016 to "balance out" that liberal Nate Silver.
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)We should be wary of the media/*new polling outfit* and their intended "bandwagon Effect".....
Mehrabian, A. (1998). Effects of poll reports on voter preferences. Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 28, 2119-2130.
Overall, results obtained from both studies were consistent in showing the superior strength of the bandwagon or rally-around-the-winner effect .... [That is, polling data showing a candidate as leading will tend to influence voters to select that candidate. Thus,] it is important to consider cumulative effects of the bandwagon effect when it is combined with repeated and closely spaced reports of polling data. Assuming that the bandwagon effect is operative and one candidate is an initial favorite by a slim margin, reports of polls showing that candidate as the leader in the race will increase his or her favorable margin. Subsequent reports, based on more recent and stronger margins, will in turn progressively strengthen that candidate's lead.
This unstable equilibrium effect of polling described in the preceding paragraph, or The Mehrabian Polling Snowball Effect (MPSE) , helps identify a potential way in which political organizations can be tempted to influence voting by sponsoring biased "polling studies" and reports. Poll results can be slanted easily through selection of slightly skewed respondent samples or the actual wording of questions used in the polls. Frequent reporting of slanted and invalid poll results can help propel a candidate to the forefront and, in fact, increase his/her lead over time. Similar considerations would apply to major political issues (rather than candidates) is various political campaigns.
Accordingly voters need to be educated about the Polling Snowball Effect so they can be specially vigilant when they are repeatedly barraged by polling reports favoring one candidate (or poll results that suggest popularity of a particular campaign issue) during political campaigns. Voters, in particular, need to educate themselves about the political orientations of entities that repeatedly sponsor polling studies.
http://www.kaaj.com/psych/abstract/pollsabstract.html
In laymans term the bandwagon effect refers to people doing certain things because other people are doing them, regardless of their own beliefs, which they may ignore or override For instance, once a product becomes popular, more people tend to "get on the bandwagon" and buy it, too. The bandwagon effect has wide implications, but is commonly seen in politics and consumer behaviour. This effect in noticed and followed very much by the youth, where if people see many of their friends buying a particular phone, they could become more interested in buying that (Apple products for example).
snip
The bandwagon effect occurs in voting: some people vote for those candidates or parties who are likely to succeed (or are proclaimed as such by the media), hoping to be on the "winner's side" in the end.[8] The bandwagon effect has been applied to situations involving majority opinion, such as political outcomes, where people alter their opinions to the majority view (McAllister and Studlar 721). Such a shift in opinion can occur because individuals draw inferences from the decisions of others, as in an informational cascade.
snip
Several studies have tested this theory of the bandwagon effect in political decision making. In the 1994 study of Robert K. Goidel and Todd G. Shields in The Journal of Politics, 180 students at the University of Kentucky were randomly assigned to nine groups and were asked questions about the same set of election scenarios. About 70% of subjects received information about the expected winner (Goidel and Shields 807). Independents, which are those who do not vote based on the endorsement of any party and are ultimately neutral, were influenced strongly in favor of the person expected to win (Goidel and Shields 807-808). Expectations played a significant role throughout the study. It was found that independents are twice as likely to vote for the Republican candidate when the Republican is expected to win. From the results, it was also found that when the Democrat was expected to win, independent Republicans and weak Republicans were more likely to vote for the Democratic candidate (Goidel and Shields 808).
A study by Albert Mehrabian, reported in The Journal of Applied Social Psychology (1998), tested the relative importance of the bandwagon (rally around the winner) effect versus the underdog (empathic support for those trailing) effect. Bogus poll results presented to voters prior to the 1996 Republican primary clearly showed the bandwagon effect to predominate on balance. Indeed, approximately 6% of the variance in the vote was explained in terms of the bogus polls, showing that poll results (whether accurate or inaccurate) can significantly influence election results in closely contested elections. In particular, assuming that one candidate "is an initial favorite by a slim margin, reports of polls showing that candidate as the leader in the race will increase his or her favorable margin" (Mehrabian, 1998, p. 2128). Thus, as poll results are repeatedly reported, the bandwagon effect will tend to snowball and become a powerful aid to leading candidates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect
Do Polls Influence the Vote? - The University of Michigan Press
http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472099213-ch11.pdf
MASS MEDIA, THE ELECTORATE, AND THE BANDWAGON. A STUDY OF COMMUNICATION EFFECTS ON VOTE CHOICE IN GERMANY
The paper addresses two propositions: (1) that by publishing news stories about the electoral strength of parties or candidates, the mass media contribute to shaping the voters' expectations about the likely outcome of an upcoming election; (2) that these expectations in turn stimulate a bandwagon effect, i.e. they influence vote choice to the advantage of the apparent future winner of the election. Analyzing media content and survey data gathered during the campaign for the first all-German national election of December 2, 1990, it can be shown that (1) interest in the media's political reporting as well as interpersonal political communication contributed significantly to converting voters to the view of the election outcome that was constantly presented by the mass media; (2) this belief in turn caused particularly unsophisticated independent voters to vote for the apparent winner of the election. Referring to the conceptual framework of low information rationality, this bandwagon effect is interpreted as majority-led proxy voting.
http://ijpor.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/3/266.short
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)How can I work myself into a suicidal frenzy if you keep pointing out reality?
PlanetBev
(4,104 posts)Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)But come on, how can you really work up a serious sweat when your opponent wants to have Big Bird for Thanksgiving dinner?
It'll be WAY closer than it should, but we will win. I'm convinced of that.