2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Sanders' American Dream is in Denmark
Full CNN Report with lots of video can be found here:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/17/politics/bernie-sanders-2016-denmark-democratic-socialism/
EXCERPTS:
Sanders has proudly adopted the label of a "democratic socialist," and he has pointed to Denmark as a model for his vision of an ideal American future.
At a presidential debate hosted by CNN in October, Sanders brought up Denmark and the surrounding Scandinavian states when asked to describe what "democratic socialism" means to him.
"I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway," Sanders said, "and learn what they have accomplished for their working people."
SNIP
"In Denmark, there is a very different understanding of what 'freedom' means," Sanders wrote, arguing the U.S. could learn from the way the Danes have "gone a long way to ending the enormous anxieties that comes with economic insecurity."
"Instead of promoting a system which allows a few to have enormous wealth, they have developed a system which guarantees a strong minimal standard of living to all -- including the children, the elderly and the disabled," Sanders added.
SNIP
But it is a market with many differences from the United States. All Danish citizens have access to child care, state-guaranteed medical and parental leave from work, free college tuition in which students receive a paycheck from the government during enrollment, free health care and a generous pension, all of which Sanders supports.
"Free" is actually the wrong word to describe these services. Danes pay some of the highest taxes in the world, including a 25% tax on all goods and services, a top marginal tax rate hovering near 60%. The top tax rate in the U.S., by comparison, is less than 40%.
But there are aspects to the Danish model that you would never see on Sanders' policy platform. As a small country heavily reliant on trade, Denmark imposes minimal tariffs on foreign goods. Businesses here are only lightly regulated. The corporate tax rate is much lower than in the United States, which has one of the highest in the world. There's not even a minimum wage in Denmark, although most workers are paid high salaries in large part due to the strength of labor unions. And in the past few years, Danish voters elected a right-of-center government, which has been instituting reforms that have put tighter restrictions on access to the long-held safety net.
SNIP
In terms of pure semantics, few Danish politicians today would characterize themselves as "socialist"--even a "democratic socialist"--as Sanders does. The word has largely fallen out of fashion in recent decades.
"When I hear Bernie Sanders talk about himself as a democratic socialist, it's a little bit 1970s," said Lars Christensen, a Danish economist known here as an outspoken critic of his homeland's model. "The major political parties on the center-left and the center-right would oppose many of the proposals of Bernie Sanders on the regulatory side as being too leftist."
SNIP
As even Sanders has conceded, the differences between the United States and Denmark are striking. In many ways, Denmark's success depends on its small size. The country has a population of just 5.6 million -- about the same as Minnesota's -- and its territory makes up just 16,000 square miles, about half the size of South Carolina. By comparison, the United States has a population of more than 300 million and encompasses 3.8 million square miles.
Unlike the United States' diverse population of immigrants, Denmark is ethnically homogenous -- nearly 90% are of Danish ancestry, according to The Danish Ministry of Social Affairs and Integration -- making political consensus easier than in the United States.
"I think this system is only possible because we essentially are all the same," said Christensen. "Maybe if you wanted to introduce such a scheme in Utah, you could do that. But doing it across the U.S., I find it completely and utterly impossible just for the mere fact that Americans are all so different."
Houses stretch along a canal in Copenhagen
I think this report is a must read/watch for all of us.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/17/politics/bernie-sanders-2016-denmark-democratic-socialism/
randys1
(16,286 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)To comply with the TOS regarding copyright, you have to post a lot less of this piece. Sorry!
I won't alert, unless I return to find you have not condensed.
gyroscope
(1,443 posts)are all ethnically diverse countries, with strong social safety nets comparable to Denmark's.
the "too ethnically diverse" argument doesn't hold water.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)I was in Paris a couple of weeks ago and it seemed just as diverse as New York.
This piece is designed to make Bernie seem like an out of touch dreamer almost loon. The plans that he is proposing ARE achievable if we really want a fair and equitable standard of living for everyone here. Supposedly we are the damn U.S. of A and we are supposed to go for the big dreams and ideals (unless it's an election year and then we need to be "pragmatic". I detest that word).
Or maybe that standard of living is too much for us to ask for and we can't do it. We're not as wonderful as we think we are and we should all just be happy that Hillary FINALLY becomes President.
gyroscope
(1,443 posts)when people say we are too "ethnically diverse" what they really mean is they don't want black and minorities benefiting from welfare, but its okay for whites in all-white countries to have a strong welfare state. its an incredibly racist argument.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And that's pretty indisputable.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)gun control!!
That would be a good start.
SDJay
(1,089 posts)I don't know what it's like to live there, but I've been there enough and for long enough to learn quite a bit. You know what people are in Denmark? Happy. You know what they don't do? Hate anyone not like them. You know why? Because there's no one there making money off of hate-peddling, and there aren't any oligarchs there robbing them blind.
Yes, they pay more in taxes than we do. But you know what? Those tax kroners go right back into the public investment approach. Those kroners aren't going to fight wars or to cover the tax bills of huge corporations that don't pay in any kroners come tax time. That alone removes a lot of the anger. They know they'll have somewhere to sleep and something to eat. They're humble and understand that it's not always all about you. Some people find that unfriendly or standoffish. That's because humility is such an exceedingly rare quality here.
I get what the pols from Denmark are saying in this piece, but we're not going to just adopt everything Denmark does from soup to nuts in January of 2017. There are valid points as to why we can't and won't be Denmark, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot we can learn from Denmark.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)SDJay
(1,089 posts)SDJay
(1,089 posts)"If you suggest borrowing any concept from any other country, that means you hate Murca" is something that pisses me off too. I'm not seeing that in this thread, but I'm sure most of us have heard that type of crap before. FREE HEALTHCARE!?!?! That's what they do in FRANCE! ARE YOU A SECRET FRENCHY? USA! USA!
dana_b
(11,546 posts)J'adore France et j'espere pouvoir vivre un jour en France.
Seriously though, it's ridiculous. This whole piece by CNN is trying to make Bernie seem so out of touch and like a loon. Assholes!
Celebrandil
(294 posts)In Sweden we have a system very similar to Denmark and the other Nordic countries, despite it being more ethnically diverse then Denmark. The foreign-born population in Sweden is somewhat higher than in America, about 15%.
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)...if I ever win the lotto, that's where I'm buying a house.
It's my favorite street in Copenhagen.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)but not during winter!! brrrr....
If I could, I'd move to France. Paris to start and then move outwards towards the country. I really love Munich too.
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts).....and not as snowy as many places in the states.
Spring also comes much earlier than in the Midwest.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)Because I was looking at the temperature in Denmark while I was in Europe last month and it was always colder than where I was. And i was freezing (Austrian/Bavaria especially)!! lol... I'm a California wimp though.
I do like the idea of an early spring.
SDJay
(1,089 posts)but I'd definitely spend some time up in Frederikshavn. Did you know they have a beach with palm trees there?
It's a quaint little Danish harbor town up on the northern tip of the country. In the summer the days barely end at all.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)the "Hawaii" of Europe!
SDJay
(1,089 posts)but it's pretty cool. I haven't yet figured out how to post a video, but I'll give it a shot:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)Look at this link for palm trees in Scandinavia.
[link:http://snowpalm.dyndns.org/eng/palm.html|
dana_b
(11,546 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)Denmark named the worlds best country for women to live in
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2014/12/17/u-s-slides-again-as-denmark-tops-forbes-best-countries-for-business/#5edf52fc59ce
Denmark - best place for business
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/denmark-happiest-country_n_4070761.html
Happiest Country
Sounds pretty good to me!
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)Nicest people ever!
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)around the world, which models we could learn from, we're wishing for unicorns. To that I say BULLSHIT.
SDJay
(1,089 posts)You're a secret commie agent and the terrorists win. Just like Jesus said!
kennetha
(3,666 posts)in miniature.
That's why Bernie likes Denmark so much. Now why he thinks he can turn America into Denmark is beyond me. But he doesn't really want to turn it into Denmark, since they like free markets there, and he kind of seems to hate them or not think much of them.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)He actually believes in trying.
fwiff
(233 posts)Down from 77% and 91% in the 60's.
This is a load of horsecrap from people who accept the reaganite small government bullshit to never fund government enough to make a difference in people's lives, just protect the rich and powerful.
As long as democrats accept what REPUBLICANS have decided is 'okay', they're done.
Sanders' 54% top MARGINAL rate, with good incentives for reinvestment for those who make over 10M a year is perfectly reasonable.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Even when the marginal rate was that high, taxes still didn't amount to 50% of GDP as they do in Denmark.
And did you notice:
SDJay
(1,089 posts)the businesses actually pay those taxes there instead of the bullcrap that goes on here. I'm hardly a Danish tax expert, but I do know from folks who live and work there that they are absolutely astounded at the number of loopholes and complicated stuff that's in our tax laws as compared to there.
And once again, if I'm paying more taxes but my kids are getting free education instead of me paying some astronomical tuition bill and we're all getting good, free healthcare instead of dumping thousands per month into premiums, I'm a happy guy. Sorta like everyone in Denmark.
Like anything else, there are concepts there that I think could definitely work and work quite well here.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)It's a perfect illustration of how we push the tax burden onto the working class and middle class so we can offer a nice, low tax rate to high income earners. Then we pile on tax breaks, so their actual tax rate is lower than it is for middle class families. At least when it comes to taxes, we could learn from the Danes, just as Sanders says.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Denmark taxes everybody out the wazoo, taxes consumptions, taxes income, but taxes corporations far less than we do. So I don't follow you at all.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Their top tax rate for high income earners is 60 percent, and ours is listed as 40, although I think it's actually lower.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Admittedly above Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and the like, but certainly the last place in Western Europe.
SDJay
(1,089 posts)for stopping by to poop on Denmark.
I'll pass those sentiments along.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)SheenaR
(2,052 posts)And some of the happiest people on the planet. Denmark sounds good to me.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)But nice hit piece by CNN.