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aaaaaa5a

(4,667 posts)
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 08:50 PM Feb 2016

Bernie Sanders' American Dream is in Denmark

Full CNN Report with lots of video can be found here:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/17/politics/bernie-sanders-2016-denmark-democratic-socialism/


EXCERPTS:

Sanders has proudly adopted the label of a "democratic socialist," and he has pointed to Denmark as a model for his vision of an ideal American future.

At a presidential debate hosted by CNN in October, Sanders brought up Denmark and the surrounding Scandinavian states when asked to describe what "democratic socialism" means to him.

"I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway," Sanders said, "and learn what they have accomplished for their working people."

SNIP

"In Denmark, there is a very different understanding of what 'freedom' means," Sanders wrote, arguing the U.S. could learn from the way the Danes have "gone a long way to ending the enormous anxieties that comes with economic insecurity."

"Instead of promoting a system which allows a few to have enormous wealth, they have developed a system which guarantees a strong minimal standard of living to all -- including the children, the elderly and the disabled," Sanders added.

SNIP

But it is a market with many differences from the United States. All Danish citizens have access to child care, state-guaranteed medical and parental leave from work, free college tuition in which students receive a paycheck from the government during enrollment, free health care and a generous pension, all of which Sanders supports.

"Free" is actually the wrong word to describe these services. Danes pay some of the highest taxes in the world, including a 25% tax on all goods and services, a top marginal tax rate hovering near 60%. The top tax rate in the U.S., by comparison, is less than 40%.

But there are aspects to the Danish model that you would never see on Sanders' policy platform. As a small country heavily reliant on trade, Denmark imposes minimal tariffs on foreign goods. Businesses here are only lightly regulated. The corporate tax rate is much lower than in the United States, which has one of the highest in the world. There's not even a minimum wage in Denmark, although most workers are paid high salaries in large part due to the strength of labor unions. And in the past few years, Danish voters elected a right-of-center government, which has been instituting reforms that have put tighter restrictions on access to the long-held safety net.

SNIP

In terms of pure semantics, few Danish politicians today would characterize themselves as "socialist"--even a "democratic socialist"--as Sanders does. The word has largely fallen out of fashion in recent decades.

"When I hear Bernie Sanders talk about himself as a democratic socialist, it's a little bit 1970s," said Lars Christensen, a Danish economist known here as an outspoken critic of his homeland's model. "The major political parties on the center-left and the center-right would oppose many of the proposals of Bernie Sanders on the regulatory side as being too leftist."

SNIP

As even Sanders has conceded, the differences between the United States and Denmark are striking. In many ways, Denmark's success depends on its small size. The country has a population of just 5.6 million -- about the same as Minnesota's -- and its territory makes up just 16,000 square miles, about half the size of South Carolina. By comparison, the United States has a population of more than 300 million and encompasses 3.8 million square miles.

Unlike the United States' diverse population of immigrants, Denmark is ethnically homogenous -- nearly 90% are of Danish ancestry, according to The Danish Ministry of Social Affairs and Integration -- making political consensus easier than in the United States.

"I think this system is only possible because we essentially are all the same," said Christensen. "Maybe if you wanted to introduce such a scheme in Utah, you could do that. But doing it across the U.S., I find it completely and utterly impossible just for the mere fact that Americans are all so different."


Houses stretch along a canal in Copenhagen

I think this report is a must read/watch for all of us.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/17/politics/bernie-sanders-2016-denmark-democratic-socialism/

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Bernie Sanders' American Dream is in Denmark (Original Post) aaaaaa5a Feb 2016 OP
Sorry but YES we CAN randys1 Feb 2016 #1
Condense your post. You are violating the TOS regarding copyright violation. merrily Feb 2016 #2
France, UK, Canada gyroscope Feb 2016 #3
Thank you dana_b Feb 2016 #8
I never understood that argument gyroscope Feb 2016 #30
Well, it means *white voters in general* don't want blacks and minorities to benefit from welfare Recursion Feb 2016 #37
I can't wait until Bernie introduces the Danish version of ... Sancho Feb 2016 #4
I've Spent Quite a Bit of Time in Denmark SDJay Feb 2016 #5
Outstanding reply. Recced kristopher Feb 2016 #21
Thank you. nt SDJay Feb 2016 #22
This Notion of SDJay Feb 2016 #6
to people like that I say "oui, je suis un francophile" dana_b Feb 2016 #11
Not a good excuse Celebrandil Feb 2016 #7
Nyhamn Bjornsdotter Feb 2016 #9
I want to go there dana_b Feb 2016 #13
It's not so cold during the winter Bjornsdotter Feb 2016 #14
Really? dana_b Feb 2016 #15
I Wouldn't Live There... SDJay Feb 2016 #17
wow!! lol.. dana_b Feb 2016 #24
The Locals Plant the Palm Trees... SDJay Feb 2016 #27
Seriously! Bjornsdotter Feb 2016 #18
lol... amazing n/t dana_b Feb 2016 #25
Denmark is considered one of the best places to live, one of the happiest places -what's the problem jillan Feb 2016 #10
It is! Bjornsdotter Feb 2016 #12
Even though there are functioning examples hifiguy Feb 2016 #16
If It Doesn't Come From Murca SDJay Feb 2016 #19
Guilty! hifiguy Feb 2016 #20
You know Vermont is sort of like Denmark kennetha Feb 2016 #23
Because he's not a nattering nabob of negatism like Clinton. Fawke Em Feb 2016 #41
Our top marginal rate pre 1982 was 70% fwiff Feb 2016 #26
Never have had a VAT kennetha Feb 2016 #28
The Difference Is That SDJay Feb 2016 #29
Just a quick word about that tax rate comparison. HassleCat Feb 2016 #31
don't follow you. kennetha Feb 2016 #34
Look at the tax rate comparison in what you posted HassleCat Feb 2016 #35
Denmark is one of the LAST places I want to live. MohRokTah Feb 2016 #32
Thank You SDJay Feb 2016 #33
Yeah, it's a hell hole. HassleCat Feb 2016 #36
One of the highest standards of living SheenaR Feb 2016 #38
Very egalitarian. moondust Feb 2016 #39
Actually, it's with FDR. Fawke Em Feb 2016 #40

merrily

(45,251 posts)
2. Condense your post. You are violating the TOS regarding copyright violation.
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 08:55 PM
Feb 2016

To comply with the TOS regarding copyright, you have to post a lot less of this piece. Sorry!

I won't alert, unless I return to find you have not condensed.

 

gyroscope

(1,443 posts)
3. France, UK, Canada
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 08:56 PM
Feb 2016

are all ethnically diverse countries, with strong social safety nets comparable to Denmark's.

the "too ethnically diverse" argument doesn't hold water.

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
8. Thank you
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:08 PM
Feb 2016

I was in Paris a couple of weeks ago and it seemed just as diverse as New York.

This piece is designed to make Bernie seem like an out of touch dreamer almost loon. The plans that he is proposing ARE achievable if we really want a fair and equitable standard of living for everyone here. Supposedly we are the damn U.S. of A and we are supposed to go for the big dreams and ideals (unless it's an election year and then we need to be "pragmatic". I detest that word).

Or maybe that standard of living is too much for us to ask for and we can't do it. We're not as wonderful as we think we are and we should all just be happy that Hillary FINALLY becomes President.

 

gyroscope

(1,443 posts)
30. I never understood that argument
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:50 PM
Feb 2016

when people say we are too "ethnically diverse" what they really mean is they don't want black and minorities benefiting from welfare, but its okay for whites in all-white countries to have a strong welfare state. its an incredibly racist argument.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
37. Well, it means *white voters in general* don't want blacks and minorities to benefit from welfare
Thu Feb 18, 2016, 12:23 AM
Feb 2016

And that's pretty indisputable.

Sancho

(9,070 posts)
4. I can't wait until Bernie introduces the Danish version of ...
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:00 PM
Feb 2016

gun control!!

That would be a good start.

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
5. I've Spent Quite a Bit of Time in Denmark
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:02 PM
Feb 2016

I don't know what it's like to live there, but I've been there enough and for long enough to learn quite a bit. You know what people are in Denmark? Happy. You know what they don't do? Hate anyone not like them. You know why? Because there's no one there making money off of hate-peddling, and there aren't any oligarchs there robbing them blind.

Yes, they pay more in taxes than we do. But you know what? Those tax kroners go right back into the public investment approach. Those kroners aren't going to fight wars or to cover the tax bills of huge corporations that don't pay in any kroners come tax time. That alone removes a lot of the anger. They know they'll have somewhere to sleep and something to eat. They're humble and understand that it's not always all about you. Some people find that unfriendly or standoffish. That's because humility is such an exceedingly rare quality here.

I get what the pols from Denmark are saying in this piece, but we're not going to just adopt everything Denmark does from soup to nuts in January of 2017. There are valid points as to why we can't and won't be Denmark, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot we can learn from Denmark.

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
6. This Notion of
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:04 PM
Feb 2016

"If you suggest borrowing any concept from any other country, that means you hate Murca" is something that pisses me off too. I'm not seeing that in this thread, but I'm sure most of us have heard that type of crap before. FREE HEALTHCARE!?!?! That's what they do in FRANCE! ARE YOU A SECRET FRENCHY? USA! USA!

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
11. to people like that I say "oui, je suis un francophile"
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:14 PM
Feb 2016

J'adore France et j'espere pouvoir vivre un jour en France.

Seriously though, it's ridiculous. This whole piece by CNN is trying to make Bernie seem so out of touch and like a loon. Assholes!

Celebrandil

(294 posts)
7. Not a good excuse
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:07 PM
Feb 2016

In Sweden we have a system very similar to Denmark and the other Nordic countries, despite it being more ethnically diverse then Denmark. The foreign-born population in Sweden is somewhat higher than in America, about 15%.

Bjornsdotter

(6,123 posts)
9. Nyhamn
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:10 PM
Feb 2016

...if I ever win the lotto, that's where I'm buying a house.

It's my favorite street in Copenhagen.

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
13. I want to go there
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:16 PM
Feb 2016

but not during winter!! brrrr....

If I could, I'd move to France. Paris to start and then move outwards towards the country. I really love Munich too.

Bjornsdotter

(6,123 posts)
14. It's not so cold during the winter
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:17 PM
Feb 2016

.....and not as snowy as many places in the states.
Spring also comes much earlier than in the Midwest.

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
15. Really?
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:20 PM
Feb 2016

Because I was looking at the temperature in Denmark while I was in Europe last month and it was always colder than where I was. And i was freezing (Austrian/Bavaria especially)!! lol... I'm a California wimp though.

I do like the idea of an early spring.

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
17. I Wouldn't Live There...
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:23 PM
Feb 2016

but I'd definitely spend some time up in Frederikshavn. Did you know they have a beach with palm trees there?

It's a quaint little Danish harbor town up on the northern tip of the country. In the summer the days barely end at all.

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
27. The Locals Plant the Palm Trees...
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:44 PM
Feb 2016

but it's pretty cool. I haven't yet figured out how to post a video, but I'll give it a shot:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="

" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
16. Even though there are functioning examples
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:21 PM
Feb 2016

around the world, which models we could learn from, we're wishing for unicorns. To that I say BULLSHIT.

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
19. If It Doesn't Come From Murca
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:24 PM
Feb 2016

You're a secret commie agent and the terrorists win. Just like Jesus said!

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
23. You know Vermont is sort of like Denmark
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:32 PM
Feb 2016

in miniature.

That's why Bernie likes Denmark so much. Now why he thinks he can turn America into Denmark is beyond me. But he doesn't really want to turn it into Denmark, since they like free markets there, and he kind of seems to hate them or not think much of them.

fwiff

(233 posts)
26. Our top marginal rate pre 1982 was 70%
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:42 PM
Feb 2016

Down from 77% and 91% in the 60's.

This is a load of horsecrap from people who accept the reaganite small government bullshit to never fund government enough to make a difference in people's lives, just protect the rich and powerful.

As long as democrats accept what REPUBLICANS have decided is 'okay', they're done.

Sanders' 54% top MARGINAL rate, with good incentives for reinvestment for those who make over 10M a year is perfectly reasonable.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
28. Never have had a VAT
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:46 PM
Feb 2016

Even when the marginal rate was that high, taxes still didn't amount to 50% of GDP as they do in Denmark.


"Free" is actually the wrong word to describe these services. Danes pay some of the highest taxes in the world, including a 25% tax on all goods and services, a top marginal tax rate hovering near 60%. The top tax rate in the U.S., by comparison, is less than 40%.


And did you notice:

Denmark imposes minimal tariffs on foreign goods. Businesses here are only lightly regulated. The corporate tax rate is much lower than in the United States, which has one of the highest in the world.

SDJay

(1,089 posts)
29. The Difference Is That
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:50 PM
Feb 2016

the businesses actually pay those taxes there instead of the bullcrap that goes on here. I'm hardly a Danish tax expert, but I do know from folks who live and work there that they are absolutely astounded at the number of loopholes and complicated stuff that's in our tax laws as compared to there.

And once again, if I'm paying more taxes but my kids are getting free education instead of me paying some astronomical tuition bill and we're all getting good, free healthcare instead of dumping thousands per month into premiums, I'm a happy guy. Sorta like everyone in Denmark.

Like anything else, there are concepts there that I think could definitely work and work quite well here.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
31. Just a quick word about that tax rate comparison.
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:51 PM
Feb 2016

It's a perfect illustration of how we push the tax burden onto the working class and middle class so we can offer a nice, low tax rate to high income earners. Then we pile on tax breaks, so their actual tax rate is lower than it is for middle class families. At least when it comes to taxes, we could learn from the Danes, just as Sanders says.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
34. don't follow you.
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 10:14 PM
Feb 2016

Denmark taxes everybody out the wazoo, taxes consumptions, taxes income, but taxes corporations far less than we do. So I don't follow you at all.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
35. Look at the tax rate comparison in what you posted
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 11:03 PM
Feb 2016

Their top tax rate for high income earners is 60 percent, and ours is listed as 40, although I think it's actually lower.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
32. Denmark is one of the LAST places I want to live.
Wed Feb 17, 2016, 09:54 PM
Feb 2016

Admittedly above Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and the like, but certainly the last place in Western Europe.

SheenaR

(2,052 posts)
38. One of the highest standards of living
Thu Feb 18, 2016, 12:32 AM
Feb 2016

And some of the happiest people on the planet. Denmark sounds good to me.

moondust

(19,993 posts)
39. Very egalitarian.
Thu Feb 18, 2016, 01:25 AM
Feb 2016

Like Scandinavia in general.

This Dane calls Denmark "the most egalitarian country in the world."

Not a good fit for wannabe oligarchs and moneygrubbers. Shkreli wouldn't like it.

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