Here is why I have such a problem with Bernie's plan for free tuition

[dsc]

Germany is often held out as an example of why we should have free tuition. But that free tuition comes with a very big trade off. By the end of 4th grade, it is determined if you will, or you won't go to college. Yes, you read that right. By the end of 4th grade.

http://www.marketplace.org/2015/04/08/education/learning-curve/stopping-german-students-their-tracks

Every student will be placed on one of three different education tracks: Gymnasium, Realschulen or Hauptschulen. Gymnasium includes eight years of university-prep school. Realschulen is six years, and typically leads to an apprenticeship instead of college. Hauptschulen is the lowest track, meant to serve slower learners.

snip

In the United States, 66 percent of high school graduates enroll in college. In Germany, only a third of students do.

Germany is very selective about who gets to go to college, because the state pays for every student to attend a public university, and there are a limited number of spots.

Decisions about which students should be tracked for college depends on a mix of grades and test scores, and are heavily influenced by teachers. Students spend the first four years in school with the same instructor.

snip

Vincenz isn’t a big proponent of the tracking system, and she would like to see students stay together for a longer period of time.

She once taught at a Hauptschule, the lowest track. She questions whether full potential can be predicted so early, pointing out that students at Hauptschulen are disproportionately poor, or children of immigrants.

“Any form of tracking is a form of discrimination really,” Vincenz says. “Even if you don't tell that to the children, they are feeling that they are not really wanted.”

end of quote, much more at link

Now this is in Germany where economic inequality is way less of a problem and where we don't have a group of people who are the descendants of slaves. I have taught in two schools that were pretty much entirely black, and the rest have been more black than the population as a whole but with a significant white presence (plurality in one, close to parity in one, and a strong minority in the rest). The ones that were all black had no AP classes, few honors classes. The rest have AP and honors but the racial make up of those classes are way whiter than that of the school as a whole. Conversely the lower level classes are more black than the school as a whole. This is without exception.

No, I don't think we would necessarily adopt the German system of tracking 9 and 10 year olds (until I read this article I had no idea Germany did that) but the fact is we would track at some level and that would invariably redound to benefit white middle class students and harm poor and students of color. One thing America does right in education that many countries don't is we don't strictly track our students. Students can, and sometime do, remake themselves either in high school or college. A German kid can't do that. If you are not together in grade 4 then you don't get college. In a country with horribly unequal schools and intractable racial divisions that make the inequality worse, this would be a recipe for disaster.

The fact is there are trade offs in life and economic systems. If Bernie were honest about this, that would be one thing. I would still have severe problems with this but I would respect his position. But this isn't honest. He is saying you can have the good stuff about the American system (larger total attendance, more ability to escape a lower start in school) and all of the good things of the German system. It doesn't work that way. It simply doesn't.

[LWolf]

1. Do you have any evidence

to suggest Bernie would attach tracking to paid tuition?

I don't think that would be part of the equation.

[dsc]

3. then it would cost vastly more than he says

He can't have it both ways.

[LWolf]

7. That's not evidence.

Not evidence about cost, and an assumtion that tracking will manage costs without evidence.

I certainly, given the opportunity, will pay close attention and be actively involved in working for a viable system. I'm an educator.

I'm also a parent whose kids, including an educator at a local (to him) university, may never be out from under student loans.

I want universal, fully funded, fully public, education pre-school through trade and/or university. I always have.

[dsc]

10. you can't simulataniously argue that more people will go to college

and then claim that the money spend on college won't increase. He is saying exactly that. Barring a literal lottery it would take a system of tracking to keep enrollment down.

[LWolf]

14. You haven't shown

that his funding plan doesn't work.

I'm simply saying that there's no evidence to support your suggestion.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. The program does not guarantee everyone gets admitted.

So that part of your attack is devoid of facts.

We currently track our kids. We force many to attend truly horrible schools from which fee will emerge qualified to do anything.

We also track our kids by making the cost of attending college stunningly expensive.

One candidate is at least trying to address the problem.

[dsc]

12. then that is back to tracking

so which is it?

[HereSince1628]

16. IMO, some states would likely create higher entrance requirements to university

in order to limit their exposure to costs if the federal program works through the states in manner similar to the approach to medicaid.

Although it probably wouldn't be called 'tracking', it's likely that cheaper, jobs-training alternatives to post-secondary education would also be incentivized if states had to raise a significant portion of the funding.

[LWolf]

20. I can think of a lot of potential directions

that free public education could take.



That doesn't mean that it would. I'm not going to assume that the outcome would be negative when there is such potential for positive, and when the whole point is to benefit people.

I'm sure there will be a great deal of discussion, suggestion, and negotiation to any plan that is actually good for people.

[HereSince1628]

29. I think some things are predictable. Dealing with the costs is a current and future challenge

that will drive what post-secondary taxpayer supported education looks like.

You apparently believe that the potential response that I see as a bad thing. I'm not sure at all that it's entirely a bad thing. It's different from what baccalaureate educations is, that's true. But what we have is not really as much consequence of intentional design as it is an outcome of response to education challenges.

Funding is one of the biggest issues for educational institutions. Courses, programs, and entire departments, have always been subject to being added and deleted in order to maintain curricular offerings that meet community/client needs while existing within the constraints of revenue streams. In my 30 years in higher ed I went through multiple economic crises that resulted in losses of courses, programs, departments and even an entire institution going out of business (Milton College)...and the displacement of all the tenured, nontenured faculty and staff that entailed.

For the past 30 years the US has had a remarkable rise in proportion of students that enter higher ed. At the same time, social attitudes toward education have turned more and more toward what's referred to as 'comprehensive' education rather than 'liberal arts' education. The objective of comprehensive education is preparation for employment and advanced education that leads to employment with supporting general education that supports individual and social needs for good lives within functional communities. Programming has been, and will continue to be, shaped by the capacity of institutions to recruit students seeking education that works for students. That means education that contributes meaningfully to employment (even if no one can really foresee just where employment will go across each student's life). For society the means educational outcomes that sustain and develop communities.

The outcomes of post secondary education, its costs, and its connection to gainful employment are out of balance. That's reflected in much student debt going unpaid and students being without jobs who then become enslaved to the growing debt and it's repayment via salaries/wages that are -not- well leveraged by the educational investment.
That isn't to say that the educations are bad or even necessarily over-priced, it's simply to say the investment (effort, cost, and alternate opportunity lost by choice and time) in education is not providing students with educations that gainfully move them into positions where their tax-contributions maintain and exploit opportunities for future students.

That failure of return on investment in education cannot really be sustained. The system is already in crisis. Cries for debt relief are a symptom (and certainly movement toward relief is required and truly fair). But, while distributing the cost across all of society may reduce the problem for indebted individuals it doesn't really fix the problem of lost investment across society. In addition to solving the cost problem for students, the problem has to be fixed for society so that public investment in education moves communities and the nation forward.

Moving away from recruiting half of students into what we recognize as baccalaureate education is something that has to happen in order to better balance educational investment with likely employment/career outcomes. That's already on the horizon. Once people start paying serious amounts of money for other people's educations, the fixing of that lost investment problem is going to become a high priority.

Cheaper alternatives, in time and money, that are better aligned with the needs of the economy are going to look more and more attractive, and getting students into those alternatives is going to be incentivized.

[LWolf]

30. Dealing with the cost...

that's exactly my point.

The OP makes a claim about costs that is not supported.

You don't really have to try to explain education funding for me. I'm an educator, and have dealt with education budgets and the consequences of under-funding for 34 years now.

I also see the vast majority of my students, whose families are poor, run smack into an economic barrier when they get out of high school. Those who don't want to join the military (and a large portion DO join the military) or go to college may stay home to work the family ranch. Unfortunately, in our small town, every time I get my gas pumped (no self-serve in my state) locally, it's by a former student.

Those who want to go to college often never get past the local community college, which, while not free, is less expensive than a 4-year university.

I have students who get scholarships; some get significant scholarships. Those are a very small percent of the whole, though. I have some who take on the debt, which they'll be paying for most of their working career at today's costs.

We raise our kids to think they can do and be, achieve, anything they are willing to work for. And then they run into that economic barrier that gives the lie that promise.

I am a firm supporter of equal opportunity, and to achieve that, economic barriers must be removed.

[HereSince1628]

39. I support equal opportunity and virtually tuition-less public higher education

Look what has been proposed now at federal and state levels. Obama, is pushing for free tuition for alternate educations the lead to certifications and associate degrees not baccalaureate degrees. Why is that the proposal? Because of the costs involved. Cost reduction and containment is being proposed at the state level. In WI eliminating general studies requirements at the university level is being pushed to lower costs (and it's consistent with the WIGops ideological desires to strip out all that 'lefty-liberal' indoctrination/propaganda they see as being involved in higher ed).

Greater tax revenue involvement means more government involvement and that means more politics. In poliltics no issue has more play than does the control/regulation of public expenditures.

Cost management is going to continue to be an issue going forward. We're not thinking it through if we don't acknowledge that things will be done by legislators to contain costs in a manner that will boil down to who gets what opportunities and what choices will be made available. Those things will make the landscape of American post-secondary education rather different than what it is.

[LWolf]

48. Of course it will be an issue.

I think it's an issue we can deal with. I'm not afraid to take it on.

[merrily]

2. What is it tonight with copyright violations? TOS say 4 paragraphs, no? Has that changed?

[dsc]

5. they are sentences

this is something that is often done, has been often done by supporters of both sides. I think this is fair use. It is way less than if I had posted 3 regular sized paragraphs of say 4 sentences each. But feel free to alert but if you do, I would like an incidence of one other time you had this same complaint.

[merrily]

8. Even if true, supporters of both sides have nothing to do with copyright law.

Playing games puts DU at risk of violating copyright law.

Your source has quite a few paragraphs of only one or two sentences, I suspect for good reason.

[newfie11]

4. My college was free in California

Back in the 60s.

[dsc]

6. and tracking was rampant

and there were massively fewer blacks in college back then.

[Live and Learn]

62. WTF? Did you just imply that black people are the reason colleges can't be free?

If not, I can't figure out what the hell you are saying.

[newfie11]

63. Many many of my friends were Black or Hispanic

My major was in medical.
Why would there be a problem with what shade anyone's skin is?
This was a terrible time, Vietnam War, Bobby Kennedy being killed, Watts riots, etc.

[newfie11]

64. Bullshit, not where I was in California

My major was medical and the majority was Blacks or Hispanics and good friends of mine!
Who cares what shade your skin is, is that a requirement for college entry now!!

[Celebrandil]

11. Free tuition does not mean tracking

Pick almost any other European country with free tuition and you see that they don't use tracking. Everybody knows that the German system is weird, even the Germans. It existed long before they got free tuition. Typically you get grades from high school. The average of these grades, as well as what courses you attended, determine what college you may enter. Thus top universities only have straight A students, even if students come from very diverse backgrounds. In some countries, like Finland, high school graduation exams also play a large role.

[dsc]

13. One of our teachers is from Spain

and their system has a required exam at the end of the senior year if you fail the exam no college for you. Nearly every European system works that way. It should be noted that I chose Germany because it is commonly brought up as a shining example of how our college system should be.

[dana_b]

36. I know that France has Le Bac which is a

6 day written and oral test. If the student does not do well, they cannot go to university, which is very different than ours. Their Grand-Ecoles are more reflective of our universities but only 5% or some ridiculously low amount of people can get into them.

Their universities have fewer classes and fields of study. They also don't have liberal arts kind of colleges.

If an American can get into a German college (the grades and the language must be there) then their tuition is free. But it is not easy and I do agree with you that their college systems and frankly all of the European school systems are different from ours.

[kristopher]

25. Japan copied the German system - deliberately.

What is your problem with it. You call it tracking and assert a commitment that occurs at an extremely young age. No such commitment occurs in Japan until the end of 8th grade. There is further testing at the end of HS that determines if you get into a free national university or if you are accepted into a for fee private university.

The free college system has a lot of different iterations. Why do you want to piss on the entire idea instead of trying to make it work? Do you have some sort of problem with providing truly equal, skill based opportunity for poor families?

[dsc]

40. the fact is that there are trade offs and Bernie as well as his supporters should admit that

Hey, I didn't pick Germany his supporters repeatedly told us Germany was the shining example of what we should do. Now all of the sudden we hear, why should we do what Germany does.

[kristopher]

42. I asked specific questions, how about an answer?

What is your problem with it. You call it tracking and assert a commitment that occurs at an extremely young age. No such commitment occurs in Japan until the end of 8th grade. There is further testing at the end of HS that determines if you get into a free national university or if you are accepted into a for fee private university.

The free college system has a lot of different iterations. Why do you want to piss on the entire idea instead of trying to make it work? Do you have some sort of problem with providing truly equal, skill based opportunity for poor families?

[dsc]

43. I have a problem with 8th grade as well

though clearly it would be better than 4th. Japan has one culture and literally next to no minority groups. And Japan has massive numbers of suicides in their high schools from the pressure kids are under. I would hardly recommend their system. The fact is we have horrifically unequal high schools and a multicultural society that, other than the UK, no other first world country comes close to. Canada is as multicultural but way less unequal same with Australia. Every single system of free tuition uses either tracking, standardized tests, or a combination of the two, to keep college enrollments down enough to afford that system. In our country any of those would benefit the majority culture and penalize the minority ones.

[kristopher]

44. Every system uses tracking because tracking and performance testing works.

If you want to create homogeneity in society, this is the path. You can't start with your desired end point, you have to build up to it. The biggest factors will be 1) each child's native ability and 2) strong parental emphasis and supervision of study habits.

Performance based access to college is the key to 2) which is the key to fully realizing 1).

[azmom]

15. We track kids here too, and once they fall behind

It is very hard to catch up. These kids often have to attend community college in order to succeed in a four year university. Many make a successful transition.


If college was free for these kids it would be one less barrier they would have to overcome.

[dsc]

21. actually no we don't

at least not strictly. Honors classes can be signed up for by anyone. Now, certainly students are encouraged and discouraged from doing so but the fact is if a parent wants his or her child in honors classes the kid will be there.

[azmom]

23. Not strictly is correct. It happens and it

Happens early.

[NobodyHere]

50. Not at the school I went to

Honors classes can and do reject people. I got rejected from a freshman math and english honor classes. However I improved my grades and got accepted into sophomore classes.

Then again this was 15 years ago.

[dsc]

52. tracking has been eliminated from most schools

I am surprised your school was still doing it. It has been on the severe outs for decades.

[NobodyHere]

53. Should a kid with poor grades be allowed into an Honor's class?

If they can't handle the workload of a normal class then why would anyone think they could handle the course load of an honor's class?

[azmom]

60. Exactly. And it is my contention that the schools

Do track kids. They may not call it that, but they do.

It was my experience that if the parents were involved, volunteering and such, the kids got placed in the "good" classes. It's starts very early and the effects just compound.

[NobodyHere]

61. That didn't really answer the question

[azmom]

65. The answer is no. It would only lead to failure.

The only way a kid with poor grades would succeed in an honors class is if they got a lot of additional support.

[Armstead]

17. There are ways to adjust for that

First of all not every kid is cur out for college.Many won't want to. Or they'll opt for vocational training in community colleges. Or, of they can afford it, to private colleges. So there is a natural tracking.

But if it is clear that kids could go to college if they perform in lower grades, then there wold be more motivation. And if accompanied by quality lower education, they'll at least have better education in K -12.

Public colleges cold have entry requirements. Those who don;lt pass could be given option to go for prep training (like GED) and given other chances.

Lot of alternatives off the top of my head.

The point is, that it is the opposite of discriminatory -- and a hell of a lot better of giving all kids the Hobbesian choice of no college or a mountain of debt. .

[angrychair]

18. This NOT a recent phenomenon

I lived in Italy from 84 to 88 and Italy had a similar method back then, 30+ years ago. I had friends who were brothers, both did decent but Franco was better. He went to university and Marco went on to an apprenticeship with an orthodontist. Both were very happy and did well. (Franco actually died about a year later in a moped accident)

Many European countries use similar methods. If the United States leveraged paid-living wage as Germany and Italy do- apprenticeships, partnerships and training programs as a second and viable track, there would not be a need for such a focus on a university-level education in order to make a decent living.

[dana_b]

37. excellent point regarding the living wage

and if we had more apprenticeship type schools I also think more young people would do well and would not feel so pressured to go into something (like a 4 year university) that they aren't either cut out for or that they don't want to do.

[angrychair]

46. Well, not an apprenticeship

As we have them now. What we have now in the United States is trash. It is focused on manual labor jobs like plumbing and HVAC and auto mechanics. All good and well if that is your thing but what if being an mechanical engineering is your thing but formal university is not? In Germany and Italy, you work as an apprentice underneath a licensed mechanical engineer and work your way, hands on with some classes, to that goal. Same outcome, different path for different people.

[Maedhros]

19. I don't necessarily object to limiting college omissions if its based on merit.

Having studied and/or taught at three universities in the U.S. and Canada, I found that a goodly portion of the students really shouldn't have been in university: they appeared to have no motivation or aptitude for it, yet expected to have their degrees handed to them. They had a very transactional mindset, in that they believed that since they paid their tuition they deserved the degree without having to put in the work.

What you are leaving out of your OP is that the German system provides a viable alternative (i.e. business and trade schools) to university education. The United States does not - we tell everyone "go to college," even when it really is not in their best interests to do so. Economies need machinists, tool and die makers, electricians, plumbers, welders and mechanics as well.

If we provide free university education I would have no problem limiting enrollment based on merit, if and only if we also provide alternative career preparation for those who choose not (or do not qualify) to attend university.

[dsc]

22. merit winds up being defined by the dominant culture

thus if one knows Mozart it counts for more than knowing similarly talented jazz composers.

[kristopher]

26. That is the lamest reply I have ever heard.

It's like saying a hangnail is worse than a beheading.

[Maedhros]

58. So we should instead rely on weath as our measure? [n/t]

[Bluenorthwest]

24. US HS graduations rate is at 81% Germany 95% so our pool of graduates entering college

is comprised of a smaller portion of the total age population. Out of 81% of all persons of graduation age in the US, 66% enter college while 33% of their German counterparts are drawn from 95% of all potential graduates. Thus 66/33 is not entirely honest nor accurate.
I myself look at those figures and it strikes me that US persons are less inclined to complete HS and that suggests that fewer would also be inclined to continue to college having finally finished. If on the other hand the promise of higher education caused more Americans to graduate HS, that would be a great thing indeed.

Plus as you say it is an entirely different system. There is no reason to adopt their entire system with early assignment to tracks and all. No reason at all.

[kristopher]

27. Accès to college will drive higher graduation rates.

This is my opinion as a US cultural anthropologist who lived and raised a family in Japan, developed some ideas and talked about these feelings to a number of people in both countries.

You can count on far more poor parents becoming "education parents". The way we do it, if a poor parent has never been to college they usually have no idea of HOW to go to college. They tell the children to study, but in their heart of hearts they fear that ultimately they are going to fail their child if the need to pay for college is set before them. The result is actually a type of relief (mixed with sadness) when the bright child sort of wanders off in a track that doesn't put them on the spot. In their mind they couldn't do anything anyway and the retreat into an avoidance pattern of behavior seems to be very widespread.

Now, contrast that with a system that offers all people at least one clearly defined path that is earned through study.
Result: Yuuuuuuuge emphasis on education and study in the home. "Education parents" become a standard feature at all economic levels and environments.

Again, not based on published research.

[AgingAmerican]

28. The US isn't Germany

And people won't be forced to go to college.

And yes, college entry should be merit based.

[reformist2]

31. We don't have to do it the German way. Can't you at least agree on the idea in principle??

To me, offering free tuition to public universities is a natural extension of providing free public elementary and secondary education.

[Recursion]

32. Maybe? The idea could be awesome or horrible

That's the whole issue, isn't it? So much of this depends on implementation.

[Recursion]

33. 6th grade, more realistically, but yeah

Germany significantly limits the number of students who can go on to college, and it shows in their college graduation rates.

And that works for them. They also have an extensive trade school and apprenticeship program. I wish we did. For that matter I wish either candidate would talk about those.

[Tom Rinaldo]

34. I would point instead to the Uiversity of California system pre Ronald Reagan

Largest in the nation, tuition free for a century prior to the late 60's when Reagan became Govenor of California.

[GreatGazoo]

35. Das ist einen Strohmann

College for All Act

To qualify for federal funding, states must meet a number of requirements designed to protect
students, ensure quality, and reduce ballooning costs. States will need to maintain spending on their
higher education systems, on academic instruction, and on need-based financial aid. In addition,
colleges and universities must reduce their reliance on low-paid adjunct faculty.

States would be able to use funding to increase academic opportunities for students, hire new faculty,
and provide professional development opportunities for professors.

No funding under this program may be used to fund administrator salaries, merit-based financial aid,
or the construction of non-academic buildings like stadiums and student centers.

Paid for with a tax on Wall Street speculation.

Nothing about tracks systems or mandating any changes in the way that students are admitted to state universities.

[dsc]

41. just how do you think they will reduce cost

especially if they can't low ball faculty. They will keep slots to a minimum and then they will have to ration them somehow.

[GreatGazoo]

49. That is pure speculation on your part and your summation of college in Germany leaves something out.

You may have missed Germany's program that uses free college for foreigners to lure some of the best young minds to Germany. Doesn't sound as austere and rationed as you make it out to be. Berlin alone has 25,000 foreign students attending their universities.

"For him to stay here in the US was going to be very costly," says Amy. "We would have had to get federal loans and student loans because he has a very fit mind and great goals."

More than 4,600 US students are fully enrolled at Germany universities, an increase of 20% over three years. At the same time, the total student debt in the US has reached $1.3 trillion (£850 billion).

Each semester, Hunter pays a fee of €111 ($120) to the Technical University of Munich (TUM), one of the most highly regarded universities in Europe, to get his degree in physics. Included in that fee is a public transportation ticket that enables Hunter to travel freely around Munich.

Health insurance for students in Germany is €80 ($87) a month, much less than what Amy would have had to pay in the US to add him to her plan.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

So is Germany doing this because they just have lots of free unicorns to give away? No. They are the number 2 exporting economy in the world (behind China), they have a negative birth rate and they know that their investment in foreign students (about $14,600 per student per year) will be paid back when those student either go home and maintain ties with German businesses or stay in Germany to spend their heathiest and most productive years creating the start ups that will continue to make Germany the strongest economy in central Europe.

[Betty Karlson]

38. The German preselection is a left-over from the Prussian "Bildung".

Maybe we are realistic enough to copy the advantages without copying the "Bildung" remnant?

[hobbit709]

45. "66 percent of high school graduates enroll in college"-How many of them actually graduate?

[Orsino]

47. I disagree with Sanders' education plan because Belgium exists.

There. Sorted out.

[Kip Humphrey]

51. total bs.

[hollowdweller]

54. My State Does it based on grades

https://www.cfwv.com/Financial_Aid_Planning/Scholarships/Promise/Eligibility_Requirements.aspx

[jeff47]

55. You're using the wrong statistic.

You want university graduation rates, not university entrance rates.

Because we let a lot of people go to college who then drop out.

[bkkyosemite]

56. Every one has a problem with every aspect of Bernie's

agenda. Bernie is not a stupid man and he will make sure those around him are well qualified and experienced to help to implement his agenda. Every President does this.

[INdemo]

57. That was/is BS

[Meldread]

59. Thanks for posting this DSC!

I didn't know that was how the German system worked.

You're right about the need to control costs, and how those costs are controlled are extremely important.