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kennetha

(3,666 posts)
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:16 PM Feb 2016

ACA, the Expansion of Medicaid, and Sanders Rigid Ideological Fixation on Single Payer

Sanders is, imho, an intellectually rigid, politically dishonest, ideological purist, incapable of evolution and adjustment in light of changed political circumstances and opportunities. And though I started out kinda of liking his authenticity," I now find almost nothing to admire in his campaign.

Nothing illustrates his rigidity and dishonesty better than his approach to Universal Healthcare.

Sanders loves to go on and on, like a robot, about the 29 million, out of over 300 million, uninsured. That is one of his main justification for wanting to start over. We can do better. Europe does better, Canada does better. So hey, we can do it too.

But two things.

First, he never ever mentions real costs and benefits involved from getting where we are to where he thinks we should be. And when he does mention costs and benefits, it's all fantasy-land stuff, easily debunked.

He is dishonest in the extreme about who would win and who would lose in the transition. He pretends as if the poor and the middle class would all be winners and the only losers would be the evil millionaire and billionaire class. But this is sheer demagoguery on his part. As many, many have pointed out, over and over again, this is just not so. The poor, for example, who are on medicaid, might be losers, as the Washington Posts points out here:

Many lower-income people are already insured or eligible for insurance under Medicaid, at least in the states that expanded the program under President Obama's health-care reform. Many Medicaid beneficiaries also work, and those workers' wages would likely decline due to the additional 6.2 percent payroll tax the proposal would levy on their employers.

Study: Bernie Sanders’s health plan is actually kind of a train wreck for the poor


Second, he never offers any analysis -- other than the evil drug companies and the evil insurance industry -- of why that number remains as high as it is, despite the passage of the ACA. I think that's on purpose. And it's more demagoguery in action. A sober analysis of who the uninsured are and why they are still uninsured would point away from Single Payer as the most feasible and achievable way forward.

Just take one glaring example. Everybody democrat knows, or should know, that part of the reason for the 29 million still uninsured has to do with the fact that the Supreme Court, in its infinite non-wisdom, partially gutted, in a 5-4 decision, the ACA by striking down the provision that compelled states to expand Medicaid, as a condition of keeping Medicaid. The court declared that States had the right to opt out, while still keeping their current Medicaid coverage.

And we all know that many Republican governors and state legislatures decided, contrary to the interest of their own citizens, out of pure ideological pique and purity not to expand Medicaid.

How many of the still uninsured are uninsured because of this? Not all of them, but a not insignificant number of them. Roughly 5 million, by one estimate



For more see The Coverage Gap: Uninsured Poor Adults in States that Do Not Expand Medicaid – An Update

Now ask yourself, which is the more politically feasible way to get closer to universal coverage -- which we are already within less than 10% of achieving -- now that the ACA is law?

Should we do things like working to expand Medicaid and tweaking the ACA's cost controls around the edges, while making other incremental adjustments to the act?

Or should we start from scratch and take on this huge and exhausting political fight from scratch.

Only a rigid, foolish, ideologue with Europe envy, who is utterly blind to context and the path-dependency of the politically possible could opt for Sander's go for broke approach to this problem at this particular moment in history.

It's a fool's errand. Count me out. Indeed, count almost the entire Democratic party out -- even long time advocates of single payer.

Frankly, I will be so glad when Clinton finally wraps this thing up so Democrats can stop arguing over stupid strategies that amount to nothing more than tilting at windmills and genuflecting on the alter of rigid ideological purity.
48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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ACA, the Expansion of Medicaid, and Sanders Rigid Ideological Fixation on Single Payer (Original Post) kennetha Feb 2016 OP
Spot on MaggieD Feb 2016 #1
He doesn't dare state the actual cost of all his plans workinclasszero Feb 2016 #34
You've gone to all this trouble to get it wrong. Ron Green Feb 2016 #2
Another Hillary fan has already posted this today. Fawke Em Feb 2016 #7
The images are not from that article. kennetha Feb 2016 #11
So tell us how Hillary gets to single payer,free at the point of delivery,universal health care libtodeath Feb 2016 #3
you're confused kennetha Feb 2016 #4
Nice non answer. libtodeath Feb 2016 #5
Here is a helpful article kennetha Feb 2016 #8
Where are her cost/funding proposals? libtodeath Feb 2016 #13
Well if you read the article kennetha Feb 2016 #17
Once more a non answer,please can anyone provide specific figures? libtodeath Feb 2016 #18
...and somehow the repubs who have been screaming "Benghazi!" and "emailz!" for years are just gonna yodermon Feb 2016 #40
Who cares if its rigid? Single payer is the superior system. Its more efficient and more streamlined phleshdef Feb 2016 #6
Theory vs practice kennetha Feb 2016 #9
In theory and practice, its superior to a slopped together, overly-bureaucratic, unwieldy system... phleshdef Feb 2016 #23
I think you are missing the point kennetha Feb 2016 #24
No one is saying anything about waving a magic wand. phleshdef Feb 2016 #26
If you think that kennetha Feb 2016 #28
I'm a New Deal Democrat who is supporting a true New Deal Democrat in this primary. phleshdef Feb 2016 #37
Post removed Post removed Feb 2016 #39
LOL "big and bold" vision. phleshdef Feb 2016 #41
you don't see it kennetha Feb 2016 #43
Yea, how about you take your condescending bullshit elsewhere. phleshdef Feb 2016 #45
Yes; the ACA is a huge mess. A lot of people simply don't understand what it's like trying to get Chathamization Feb 2016 #42
Yea, the ACA is more like a leash attempting to tame this wild system we have. Its a stop gap. phleshdef Feb 2016 #44
The example of The Netherlands suggests you're wrong mythology Feb 2016 #47
WHO ranks Netherlands #17. France is #1. phleshdef Feb 2016 #48
I'm convinced you work for a health insurance company. Avalux Feb 2016 #10
Politics is a constraint satisfaction problem kennetha Feb 2016 #12
Is your life a constraint satisfaction problem? Avalux Feb 2016 #14
yes life is a constraint satisfaction problem. kennetha Feb 2016 #15
We obviously live by different philosophies. Avalux Feb 2016 #16
Here's a constraint kennetha Feb 2016 #19
Maybe it's the way you view life in general. Avalux Feb 2016 #21
there are hard constraints and soft constraints kennetha Feb 2016 #25
The idea that all that's left is to cover the remaining 10% is a false premise. thesquanderer Feb 2016 #20
true, but every idea of Hillary's for addressing these issues kennetha Feb 2016 #22
From your link libtodeath Feb 2016 #27
yes. kennetha Feb 2016 #30
You have to be kidding me. libtodeath Feb 2016 #31
Who cares kennetha Feb 2016 #33
Who cares?? libtodeath Feb 2016 #35
Are you being purposely obtuse? kennetha Feb 2016 #36
You are the one being obtuse libtodeath Feb 2016 #38
K&R nt. NCTraveler Feb 2016 #29
Great post workinclasszero Feb 2016 #32
I wonder when we can begin talking about the needs of the American people PatrickforO Feb 2016 #46
 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
1. Spot on
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:22 PM
Feb 2016

Especially this: "from getting where we are to where he thinks we should be. And when he does mention costs and benefits, it's all fantasy-land stuff, easily debunked."

Absolutely true. His cost projections are easily $1 trillion short per year. And I can't believe he is unaware of that. So yes, I consider him dishonest in the extreme on this issue.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
34. He doesn't dare state the actual cost of all his plans
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:31 PM
Feb 2016

or the taxes it would really take to implement them.

Ron Green

(9,822 posts)
2. You've gone to all this trouble to get it wrong.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:26 PM
Feb 2016

Don't spew stuff from Clinton people (Thorpe): just go to pnhp.org and learn.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
7. Another Hillary fan has already posted this today.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:42 PM
Feb 2016

Told them then that the numbers came from Kenneth Thorpe, a former Clinton adviser.

They ignored that and are now posting OTHER quotes from the SAME article and this time with IMAGES!



No one who believes in objectivity is going to buy this article written by a Clinton crony.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
11. The images are not from that article.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:46 PM
Feb 2016

the images just state neutral facts about the effects of Republican Governors refusing to expand medicaid.

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
3. So tell us how Hillary gets to single payer,free at the point of delivery,universal health care
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:31 PM
Feb 2016

via the ACA?

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
4. you're confused
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:39 PM
Feb 2016

single payer and universal coverage are not the same thing.

Single payer is just one way among others of getting universal coverage.

Lots of nations around the world have universal coverage but not single payer.


List of Countries with Universal Healthcare

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
17. Well if you read the article
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:58 PM
Feb 2016

you'd appreciate that the costs are not anything close to what Sanders is proposing.

For example, she's proposing to offer the recalcitrant states an offer they cannot refuse on medicaid expansion. that'll take care of 5 million right there.

Those costs were already baked into the system.

She's proposing to reintroduce the public option, through the states, by using a provision that's already built into the ACA -- innovation exceptions or something like that.

Those costs are probably already baked into the system too.

This is how a smart pragmatic progressive, who is willing to seize opportunities, pocket gains, and build on what we've achieved works.

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
18. Once more a non answer,please can anyone provide specific figures?
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:01 PM
Feb 2016

It just sounds like campaign rhetoric without really saying anything.

yodermon

(6,143 posts)
40. ...and somehow the repubs who have been screaming "Benghazi!" and "emailz!" for years are just gonna
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:41 PM
Feb 2016

roll over and play nice with her?
She will be stonewalled exactly like Obama and exactly like Bernie would be.

The repukes will cast her Very Sensible Compromise Positions as SOCIALIST LEFTY COMMUNISM, just like the did/do with Obama. That paints these CENTRIST positions as LEFTIST in the mind of the public (fair or not), which is exactly how the framing of our political discourse has been moving to the right over all these decades.

If they are going to stonewall and obstruct us ANYWAY I'd rather have someone standing strong for true Liberal positions (i.e. single payer) in the process, to provide a fixed point and keep pounding their benefits from the bully pulpit.


ps - what is her plan to win back the House of Representatives?

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
6. Who cares if its rigid? Single payer is the superior system. Its more efficient and more streamlined
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:41 PM
Feb 2016

I was and am pro-ACA. But I'm not gonna pretend that one large pool that covers everyone isn't obviously better. The simplicity of single payer makes it superior to everything else.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
23. In theory and practice, its superior to a slopped together, overly-bureaucratic, unwieldy system...
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:15 PM
Feb 2016

....such as we have now.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
24. I think you are missing the point
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:17 PM
Feb 2016

you can't wave a magic wand and make it go away. The slopped together system has over its long history internalized a set of incentives that can't just be wished away by theory.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
26. No one is saying anything about waving a magic wand.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:20 PM
Feb 2016

Its painfully obvious that the conversion to a single payer system would have to happen in carefully planned stages over a number of years. And thats okay.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
28. If you think that
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:21 PM
Feb 2016

you should be for Clinton, not Sanders.

Sanders is a blowhard full of empty rhetoric, with no concrete or realistic plans, incapable of evolution, too intellectually and ideologically rigid to take small steps forward.

There is nothing to recommend him as a president except his "authenticity."

But authenticity in the pursuit of windmills is no virtue.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
37. I'm a New Deal Democrat who is supporting a true New Deal Democrat in this primary.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:33 PM
Feb 2016

I don't hate Hillary Clinton. But she lacks vision. She isn't inspirational. And she has a lot of baggage. Thats just the fact of the matter. If you think Bernie doesn't realize single payer would have to be a planned transition, you are everything you are accusing Bernie of being.

Response to phleshdef (Reply #37)

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
41. LOL "big and bold" vision.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:43 PM
Feb 2016

Like I said, I don't hate her, but thats just hilarious. The only thing big and bold is the Clinton baggage... fair or unfair, it is what it is.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
43. you don't see it
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:45 PM
Feb 2016

cause you got Bernie impossible dream syndrome. So you're just not focused on actually playing the long game.

You're like a quarterback who only has one play up his sleeve -- the long downfield pass, into stiff coverage. You think the guy who keeps hitting the underneath pass or runs the ball up the middle or runs an option is a sell out who dreams small.

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
45. Yea, how about you take your condescending bullshit elsewhere.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:46 PM
Feb 2016

I'm voting for Bernie in the Ohio primary. Get over it. You aren't changing my mind. You are going to have to live with that.

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
42. Yes; the ACA is a huge mess. A lot of people simply don't understand what it's like trying to get
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:44 PM
Feb 2016

Medicaid or a plan through the exchange. Case in point, I moved 6 months ago and tried to switch my plan between exchanges. Though it was the same plan in both states, you have to get it through the exchanges to be eligible for subsidies (at least that's what I've been told by the people involved, though they often seem even more confused about it than I am). I've spent an hour or two every couple of weeks for the past 6 months checking up with them, seeing why things haven't gotten through, asking for escalations, etc. And still no resolution.

According to Kaiser, about half of the uninsured in the U.S. are eligible for Medicaid or a subsidized health plan. But being eligible for something doesn't really matter if it's nearly impossible to obtain it. How many people give up after months of sending in the documents they are told they need to submit, being rejected, then being told they need to submit other documents, then being rejected again, then being told that they're not sure why it was rejected so it has to be escalated, then being told that the escalation was never review and it's being escalated again, etc.? Oh, and now HHS is going to make it even more difficult to sign up outside of enrollment periods.

But people who have insurance from elsewhere and don't have to deal with this garbage like to tell those who have been suffering from it - and uninsured because we suffer from it - that it's a distraction, that things are mostly working. The millions who are uninsured, and the millions more who are eventually insured but have to devote a large chunk of their lives unraveling bureaucratic knots (and have a lot to lose when things get lost in the shuffle), don't matter.

Yes, the ACA is much better than what came before, but it's still a huge mess. Pretending that being better means we should ignore it's massive flaws is like telling people that it's fine if subsidized meals in schools are unhealthy junk food because, hey, it's still better than the kids starving, right?

 

phleshdef

(11,936 posts)
44. Yea, the ACA is more like a leash attempting to tame this wild system we have. Its a stop gap.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:45 PM
Feb 2016

I'm glad it was passed. Its helped a lot of people. It still doesn't solve the problem.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
47. The example of The Netherlands suggests you're wrong
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 02:19 PM
Feb 2016

Over a decade they ranked at the top of European health care and they have a modified ACA in that they require insurance be purchased via a regulated non-profit insurance company and that catastrophic coverage be covered by the state.

There's a reason single payer exists in very few countries. It large and unwieldy, it blocks innovative approaches to healthcare and it blocks the opportunity to be a better advocate for your own health and health care.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
10. I'm convinced you work for a health insurance company.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:45 PM
Feb 2016

Your bashing of Bernie and misrepresentation of his health care platform is reprehensible.

"Path dependency of the politically possible" - that's quite a mouthful, and just shows that you, along with your candidate, are content to continue within the confines of the status quo, without even attempting real progress in helping the uninsured, and the under-insured as well.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
12. Politics is a constraint satisfaction problem
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:47 PM
Feb 2016

you don't just get to wish away political constraints just cause you would like to.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
14. Is your life a constraint satisfaction problem?
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:53 PM
Feb 2016

I don't live that way and I've been fortunate enough to have wondrous and unexpected things happen because I choose to believe that anything is possible.


Avalux

(35,015 posts)
16. We obviously live by different philosophies.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 12:58 PM
Feb 2016

I am sorry you see life that way...but it explains why we are supporting different candidates. I know we don't see eye to eye on this but I hope you have a good day.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
19. Here's a constraint
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:01 PM
Feb 2016

you are a biological organism, that needs food, sleep, etc.

you live in a competitive society, in which you can't get a job just by asking for it.

you can't set your own salary

you can't just decide that you want to make movies and then get movies made.

Of course, life is a constraint satisfaction problem.

How could you possibly deny that?

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
21. Maybe it's the way you view life in general.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:11 PM
Feb 2016

Let's go at it a little differently. Of course there are biological constraints that are non-negotiable. Death is the biggest constraint of all.

But everything else in life, perceived constraints if you will, are negotiable. I go after what I want even when others tell me it's not possible. If I believe I can do it, I make it happen. Perceived constraints be damned.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
25. there are hard constraints and soft constraints
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:19 PM
Feb 2016

not all constraints are hard. some are soft.

And sometimes you definitely get to trade-off one constraint for another.

But you don't get to completely erase the constraints. ever.

thesquanderer

(11,989 posts)
20. The idea that all that's left is to cover the remaining 10% is a false premise.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:06 PM
Feb 2016

Many people who ARE covered still have high deductibles and copays that prevent them from getting the coverage they need, giving them something that is functionally little more than "catastrophic" coverage despite charging them for "non-catastrophic" policies that offer more benefits in theory, but in reality, are offering benefits the people cannot afford to use. Expanding the ACA in such a way as to cover the remaining 10% does nothing to address that. ACA helped a lot compared to the nothingness that preceded it, but it is still far from ideal.

And yes, as another post indicated, you should take a look at http://www.pnhp.org to see how most of your issues would be addressed.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
22. true, but every idea of Hillary's for addressing these issues
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:15 PM
Feb 2016

is infinitely more doable and more well thought out than any idea of Bernie's.

Bernie is just wasting our time, tilting at windmills, in the name of ideological purity.

Hillary Clinton reveals her plan to revise--not repeal or replace--Obamacare

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
27. From your link
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:21 PM
Feb 2016
Clinton's idea is to establish the public option beginning at the state level using existing provisions of the ACA — to "work with interested governors, using current flexibility under the Affordable Care Act, to empower states to establish a public option choice."


"It would, however, need funding," Sprung notes. That's where cooperation between governors and a President Clinton might come in. And that's where the waiver might come in. If the state could find other means of savings, those measures might be integrated in a waiver proposal with a public option. In time, state-level public options could be brought upstream to the federal level and — presto! — you've re-created the original ACA public option.


Is this serious?

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
30. yes.
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:23 PM
Feb 2016

you wouldn't get many red states to go for it. But plenty of blue states would and nobody could complain about a federal take over.

As the public option in blue states proved more and more successful, the number of holdouts would diminish.

Not only is this serious. It's a brilliant idea, befitting Hillary's highly imaginative and flexible approach to making public policy that gets us from where we are to where we want to be in the long run, but accommodates short run realities.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
33. Who cares
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:29 PM
Feb 2016

the point is to allow it to happen where it can happen and to allow it to grow gradually to more places.

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
35. Who cares??
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:31 PM
Feb 2016

Talk about pie in the sky dreaming and without even any specifics.
You just cant make this stuff up.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
36. Are you being purposely obtuse?
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:32 PM
Feb 2016

The idea is to allow those individual states that are willing to introduce a public option to do so, without having to introduce a federal public option. Without having to mandate that every state does so.

What don't you get?

libtodeath

(2,888 posts)
38. You are the one being obtuse
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:35 PM
Feb 2016

She has no plan,she has no specifics,she has no funding proposals to pay for anything,she talks about working with states to do it that never in a million years will and you say it is viable.

PatrickforO

(14,576 posts)
46. I wonder when we can begin talking about the needs of the American people
Thu Feb 25, 2016, 01:47 PM
Feb 2016

and use that as a guide for what kind of system we offer. These are our tax dollars, kennetha, and as I've told you before, it's time we began to spend them for something that actually makes our lives BETTER.

Right now, I've got a shitty, rationed healthcare plan from an HMO that cares more about cutting costs than it does about treating me or my wife. Last year, this plan cost a whopping 18.5% of my gross. This year, due to feverish construction of new offices on the part of the HMO, god knows not increases in quality of service, this has moved to 18.8% of my gross. Think about that for a minute, because here's a scenario.

Recently I was injured on the job. I had to be transported to an ER by ambulance, had X-ray and MRI, had surgery and am now in rehab for 6 weeks at twice/week. Include prescriptions and my cost comes to ZERO. No worries. No stress. Just get well.

My wife visited the doctor at the HMO for a problem. She has to get an MRI. Cost: $150 copay. She might have to have surgery. Cost: $3,000 copay.

So I don't care, kennetha. I want single payer NOW. For one little dinky time in many over the last decades, let us use OUR tax dollars (and yes, I'm fine with a tax increase to pay for it) to do something that makes OUR lives BETTER and LESS STRESSFUL.

Get it?

I hope so, because THAT is why I'm for Bernie. Unless the oligarchs stage a coup, the reality is that fewer than 800 people in this nation set and enforce this kind of policy. I'm talking about our three branches of government at the elected officials level, cabinet Secretaries and federal judges including SCOTUS. And, kennetha, if they had the f-ing GUTS to make this happen it could tomorrow. That's the reality because the structure (Medicare) already exists. People understand it. People like it. I've a colleague whose husband is over 65 and has Medicare with a supplemental United Healthcare policy and he got cancer. Cost of his whole treatment? ZERO. I asked my colleague and she said, "It is great. You don't have to worry."

IT'S GREAT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY. That is what I want, kennetha. NOW. So with all due respect quit bringing up corporate or third way sponsored data to show me why I can't have it.

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