2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumACA, the Expansion of Medicaid, and Sanders Rigid Ideological Fixation on Single Payer
Sanders is, imho, an intellectually rigid, politically dishonest, ideological purist, incapable of evolution and adjustment in light of changed political circumstances and opportunities. And though I started out kinda of liking his authenticity," I now find almost nothing to admire in his campaign.
Nothing illustrates his rigidity and dishonesty better than his approach to Universal Healthcare.
Sanders loves to go on and on, like a robot, about the 29 million, out of over 300 million, uninsured. That is one of his main justification for wanting to start over. We can do better. Europe does better, Canada does better. So hey, we can do it too.
But two things.
First, he never ever mentions real costs and benefits involved from getting where we are to where he thinks we should be. And when he does mention costs and benefits, it's all fantasy-land stuff, easily debunked.
He is dishonest in the extreme about who would win and who would lose in the transition. He pretends as if the poor and the middle class would all be winners and the only losers would be the evil millionaire and billionaire class. But this is sheer demagoguery on his part. As many, many have pointed out, over and over again, this is just not so. The poor, for example, who are on medicaid, might be losers, as the Washington Posts points out here:
Study: Bernie Sanderss health plan is actually kind of a train wreck for the poor
Second, he never offers any analysis -- other than the evil drug companies and the evil insurance industry -- of why that number remains as high as it is, despite the passage of the ACA. I think that's on purpose. And it's more demagoguery in action. A sober analysis of who the uninsured are and why they are still uninsured would point away from Single Payer as the most feasible and achievable way forward.
Just take one glaring example. Everybody democrat knows, or should know, that part of the reason for the 29 million still uninsured has to do with the fact that the Supreme Court, in its infinite non-wisdom, partially gutted, in a 5-4 decision, the ACA by striking down the provision that compelled states to expand Medicaid, as a condition of keeping Medicaid. The court declared that States had the right to opt out, while still keeping their current Medicaid coverage.
And we all know that many Republican governors and state legislatures decided, contrary to the interest of their own citizens, out of pure ideological pique and purity not to expand Medicaid.
How many of the still uninsured are uninsured because of this? Not all of them, but a not insignificant number of them. Roughly 5 million, by one estimate
For more see The Coverage Gap: Uninsured Poor Adults in States that Do Not Expand Medicaid An Update
Now ask yourself, which is the more politically feasible way to get closer to universal coverage -- which we are already within less than 10% of achieving -- now that the ACA is law?
Should we do things like working to expand Medicaid and tweaking the ACA's cost controls around the edges, while making other incremental adjustments to the act?
Or should we start from scratch and take on this huge and exhausting political fight from scratch.
Only a rigid, foolish, ideologue with Europe envy, who is utterly blind to context and the path-dependency of the politically possible could opt for Sander's go for broke approach to this problem at this particular moment in history.
It's a fool's errand. Count me out. Indeed, count almost the entire Democratic party out -- even long time advocates of single payer.
Frankly, I will be so glad when Clinton finally wraps this thing up so Democrats can stop arguing over stupid strategies that amount to nothing more than tilting at windmills and genuflecting on the alter of rigid ideological purity.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)Especially this: "from getting where we are to where he thinks we should be. And when he does mention costs and benefits, it's all fantasy-land stuff, easily debunked."
Absolutely true. His cost projections are easily $1 trillion short per year. And I can't believe he is unaware of that. So yes, I consider him dishonest in the extreme on this issue.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)or the taxes it would really take to implement them.
Ron Green
(9,822 posts)Don't spew stuff from Clinton people (Thorpe): just go to pnhp.org and learn.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Told them then that the numbers came from Kenneth Thorpe, a former Clinton adviser.
They ignored that and are now posting OTHER quotes from the SAME article and this time with IMAGES!
No one who believes in objectivity is going to buy this article written by a Clinton crony.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)the images just state neutral facts about the effects of Republican Governors refusing to expand medicaid.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)via the ACA?
kennetha
(3,666 posts)single payer and universal coverage are not the same thing.
Single payer is just one way among others of getting universal coverage.
Lots of nations around the world have universal coverage but not single payer.
List of Countries with Universal Healthcare
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)What is Hillarys plan to get everyone healthcare?
kennetha
(3,666 posts)libtodeath
(2,888 posts)kennetha
(3,666 posts)you'd appreciate that the costs are not anything close to what Sanders is proposing.
For example, she's proposing to offer the recalcitrant states an offer they cannot refuse on medicaid expansion. that'll take care of 5 million right there.
Those costs were already baked into the system.
She's proposing to reintroduce the public option, through the states, by using a provision that's already built into the ACA -- innovation exceptions or something like that.
Those costs are probably already baked into the system too.
This is how a smart pragmatic progressive, who is willing to seize opportunities, pocket gains, and build on what we've achieved works.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)It just sounds like campaign rhetoric without really saying anything.
yodermon
(6,143 posts)roll over and play nice with her?
She will be stonewalled exactly like Obama and exactly like Bernie would be.
The repukes will cast her Very Sensible Compromise Positions as SOCIALIST LEFTY COMMUNISM, just like the did/do with Obama. That paints these CENTRIST positions as LEFTIST in the mind of the public (fair or not), which is exactly how the framing of our political discourse has been moving to the right over all these decades.
If they are going to stonewall and obstruct us ANYWAY I'd rather have someone standing strong for true Liberal positions (i.e. single payer) in the process, to provide a fixed point and keep pounding their benefits from the bully pulpit.
ps - what is her plan to win back the House of Representatives?
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I was and am pro-ACA. But I'm not gonna pretend that one large pool that covers everyone isn't obviously better. The simplicity of single payer makes it superior to everything else.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)matters.
Politics isn't done in a vacuum.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)....such as we have now.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)you can't wave a magic wand and make it go away. The slopped together system has over its long history internalized a set of incentives that can't just be wished away by theory.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Its painfully obvious that the conversion to a single payer system would have to happen in carefully planned stages over a number of years. And thats okay.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)you should be for Clinton, not Sanders.
Sanders is a blowhard full of empty rhetoric, with no concrete or realistic plans, incapable of evolution, too intellectually and ideologically rigid to take small steps forward.
There is nothing to recommend him as a president except his "authenticity."
But authenticity in the pursuit of windmills is no virtue.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I don't hate Hillary Clinton. But she lacks vision. She isn't inspirational. And she has a lot of baggage. Thats just the fact of the matter. If you think Bernie doesn't realize single payer would have to be a planned transition, you are everything you are accusing Bernie of being.
Response to phleshdef (Reply #37)
Post removed
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Like I said, I don't hate her, but thats just hilarious. The only thing big and bold is the Clinton baggage... fair or unfair, it is what it is.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)cause you got Bernie impossible dream syndrome. So you're just not focused on actually playing the long game.
You're like a quarterback who only has one play up his sleeve -- the long downfield pass, into stiff coverage. You think the guy who keeps hitting the underneath pass or runs the ball up the middle or runs an option is a sell out who dreams small.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I'm voting for Bernie in the Ohio primary. Get over it. You aren't changing my mind. You are going to have to live with that.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Medicaid or a plan through the exchange. Case in point, I moved 6 months ago and tried to switch my plan between exchanges. Though it was the same plan in both states, you have to get it through the exchanges to be eligible for subsidies (at least that's what I've been told by the people involved, though they often seem even more confused about it than I am). I've spent an hour or two every couple of weeks for the past 6 months checking up with them, seeing why things haven't gotten through, asking for escalations, etc. And still no resolution.
According to Kaiser, about half of the uninsured in the U.S. are eligible for Medicaid or a subsidized health plan. But being eligible for something doesn't really matter if it's nearly impossible to obtain it. How many people give up after months of sending in the documents they are told they need to submit, being rejected, then being told they need to submit other documents, then being rejected again, then being told that they're not sure why it was rejected so it has to be escalated, then being told that the escalation was never review and it's being escalated again, etc.? Oh, and now HHS is going to make it even more difficult to sign up outside of enrollment periods.
But people who have insurance from elsewhere and don't have to deal with this garbage like to tell those who have been suffering from it - and uninsured because we suffer from it - that it's a distraction, that things are mostly working. The millions who are uninsured, and the millions more who are eventually insured but have to devote a large chunk of their lives unraveling bureaucratic knots (and have a lot to lose when things get lost in the shuffle), don't matter.
Yes, the ACA is much better than what came before, but it's still a huge mess. Pretending that being better means we should ignore it's massive flaws is like telling people that it's fine if subsidized meals in schools are unhealthy junk food because, hey, it's still better than the kids starving, right?
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I'm glad it was passed. Its helped a lot of people. It still doesn't solve the problem.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Over a decade they ranked at the top of European health care and they have a modified ACA in that they require insurance be purchased via a regulated non-profit insurance company and that catastrophic coverage be covered by the state.
There's a reason single payer exists in very few countries. It large and unwieldy, it blocks innovative approaches to healthcare and it blocks the opportunity to be a better advocate for your own health and health care.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)Your bashing of Bernie and misrepresentation of his health care platform is reprehensible.
"Path dependency of the politically possible" - that's quite a mouthful, and just shows that you, along with your candidate, are content to continue within the confines of the status quo, without even attempting real progress in helping the uninsured, and the under-insured as well.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)you don't just get to wish away political constraints just cause you would like to.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)I don't live that way and I've been fortunate enough to have wondrous and unexpected things happen because I choose to believe that anything is possible.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)of course you live that way.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)I am sorry you see life that way...but it explains why we are supporting different candidates. I know we don't see eye to eye on this but I hope you have a good day.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)you are a biological organism, that needs food, sleep, etc.
you live in a competitive society, in which you can't get a job just by asking for it.
you can't set your own salary
you can't just decide that you want to make movies and then get movies made.
Of course, life is a constraint satisfaction problem.
How could you possibly deny that?
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Let's go at it a little differently. Of course there are biological constraints that are non-negotiable. Death is the biggest constraint of all.
But everything else in life, perceived constraints if you will, are negotiable. I go after what I want even when others tell me it's not possible. If I believe I can do it, I make it happen. Perceived constraints be damned.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)not all constraints are hard. some are soft.
And sometimes you definitely get to trade-off one constraint for another.
But you don't get to completely erase the constraints. ever.
thesquanderer
(11,989 posts)Many people who ARE covered still have high deductibles and copays that prevent them from getting the coverage they need, giving them something that is functionally little more than "catastrophic" coverage despite charging them for "non-catastrophic" policies that offer more benefits in theory, but in reality, are offering benefits the people cannot afford to use. Expanding the ACA in such a way as to cover the remaining 10% does nothing to address that. ACA helped a lot compared to the nothingness that preceded it, but it is still far from ideal.
And yes, as another post indicated, you should take a look at http://www.pnhp.org to see how most of your issues would be addressed.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)is infinitely more doable and more well thought out than any idea of Bernie's.
Bernie is just wasting our time, tilting at windmills, in the name of ideological purity.
Hillary Clinton reveals her plan to revise--not repeal or replace--Obamacare
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Clinton's idea is to establish the public option beginning at the state level using existing provisions of the ACA to "work with interested governors, using current flexibility under the Affordable Care Act, to empower states to establish a public option choice."
"It would, however, need funding," Sprung notes. That's where cooperation between governors and a President Clinton might come in. And that's where the waiver might come in. If the state could find other means of savings, those measures might be integrated in a waiver proposal with a public option. In time, state-level public options could be brought upstream to the federal level and presto! you've re-created the original ACA public option.
Is this serious?
you wouldn't get many red states to go for it. But plenty of blue states would and nobody could complain about a federal take over.
As the public option in blue states proved more and more successful, the number of holdouts would diminish.
Not only is this serious. It's a brilliant idea, befitting Hillary's highly imaginative and flexible approach to making public policy that gets us from where we are to where we want to be in the long run, but accommodates short run realities.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Check out who controls the majority of state houses.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)the point is to allow it to happen where it can happen and to allow it to grow gradually to more places.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Talk about pie in the sky dreaming and without even any specifics.
You just cant make this stuff up.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)The idea is to allow those individual states that are willing to introduce a public option to do so, without having to introduce a federal public option. Without having to mandate that every state does so.
What don't you get?
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)She has no plan,she has no specifics,she has no funding proposals to pay for anything,she talks about working with states to do it that never in a million years will and you say it is viable.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)thanks
PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)and use that as a guide for what kind of system we offer. These are our tax dollars, kennetha, and as I've told you before, it's time we began to spend them for something that actually makes our lives BETTER.
Right now, I've got a shitty, rationed healthcare plan from an HMO that cares more about cutting costs than it does about treating me or my wife. Last year, this plan cost a whopping 18.5% of my gross. This year, due to feverish construction of new offices on the part of the HMO, god knows not increases in quality of service, this has moved to 18.8% of my gross. Think about that for a minute, because here's a scenario.
Recently I was injured on the job. I had to be transported to an ER by ambulance, had X-ray and MRI, had surgery and am now in rehab for 6 weeks at twice/week. Include prescriptions and my cost comes to ZERO. No worries. No stress. Just get well.
My wife visited the doctor at the HMO for a problem. She has to get an MRI. Cost: $150 copay. She might have to have surgery. Cost: $3,000 copay.
So I don't care, kennetha. I want single payer NOW. For one little dinky time in many over the last decades, let us use OUR tax dollars (and yes, I'm fine with a tax increase to pay for it) to do something that makes OUR lives BETTER and LESS STRESSFUL.
Get it?
I hope so, because THAT is why I'm for Bernie. Unless the oligarchs stage a coup, the reality is that fewer than 800 people in this nation set and enforce this kind of policy. I'm talking about our three branches of government at the elected officials level, cabinet Secretaries and federal judges including SCOTUS. And, kennetha, if they had the f-ing GUTS to make this happen it could tomorrow. That's the reality because the structure (Medicare) already exists. People understand it. People like it. I've a colleague whose husband is over 65 and has Medicare with a supplemental United Healthcare policy and he got cancer. Cost of his whole treatment? ZERO. I asked my colleague and she said, "It is great. You don't have to worry."
IT'S GREAT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY. That is what I want, kennetha. NOW. So with all due respect quit bringing up corporate or third way sponsored data to show me why I can't have it.