2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forum"How Can Black People Trust Hillary After The 2008 Campaign?"
Thorough Recap Of Her Racist Tactics Against Obama:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-rucker/can-black-people-trust-hillary_b_9312004.html
from the link:
Hillary Clinton appears to be playing cynical racial politics again, as she did in 2008. It’s just got a different look and feel.
Today, Clinton is wrapping herself in the flag of Obama to appeal to Black voters, arguing that she’s the candidate who will address the needs of Black people. She’s got her surrogates attacking her opponent’s civil rights bonafides, and she’s built a large stable of Black establishment players to support her. Clinton is proclaiming that Black Lives Matter and offering bold promises to fight systemic racism and inequality.
Clinton is now attacking Bernie Sanders for having criticized Obama, trying to take advantage of Black folks’ desire to defend the president. But it was Clinton herself who waged an incredibly nasty campaign of attacks and smears against Obama, going far beyond mere policy disagreements. A quick trip down memory lane reveals that Clinton has a history of employing race in a divisive, cynical manner.
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leftofcool
(19,460 posts)How can Blacks______ fill in the blank?
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)We are just like them. It's like we are exotic animals in a cage to some people. A riddle to be solved. A dancer out of time.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)older over 65 and internet limited or shunning altogether, IOW getting their information from the TV, M$M but that's IRL
and while I'm here my condolences to you and family on your cousin's death and I'm glad you seem to agree with my comment here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=39168
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)Is they aren't racist pieces of shit like Trump/Cruz fans are.
My mom is one but she was a true radical and married a black man in the 60's.
She knows who the REAL enemies to her children and grandchildren are and their names are neither Clinton nor Sanders.
They are those sick pieces of shit nothings voting for Trump.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and how it'd be taken,. About gangs and demographic numbers I think that had much to do with where you lived, at that time I lived in Minneapolis-also known as money-apolis mainly because of what crack sold for here- standard $25 a rock the same that was going for $5 elsewhere or so I'm told
As to gangs the 2 main operative ones in the early to mid '90's were the Disciples and Vice Lords, Latin Kings were barely a blip on the radar as were Asian gangs which are a whole other ball of wax so to speak as they are older much older have roots going back to Asia, very low key and in some cases community leaders were also gang members
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)Just today.
There were super predators and one murdered my American University bound cousin in 1991.
Black kid shot a black man heading towards a career in Civil Rights law for a few dollars.
The super predator was taken out by his gang 4 years later for snitching.
That was Rochester NY 1991 - but a 22 year black male scholar at U of R from an affluent suburb getting killed was still NIH to the police. His life mattered.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)however- in Mpls the LEO's used to call such murders a 2fer
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)13 th murder Rochester that year. Had I not met that AD A - we never would have seen the NIH. His dad never would have known.
I have no empathy for the crack gangs or coke dealers. Funny just watched Blow again the other night - it's such a feel good movie to me. Boston George or a 9th Ward Crack dealer - in 1991 there was no difference.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And was part of the community voice shouting "law enforcement, do your fucking job" ... and, I didn't lose a second of sleep to the sound of project raids or street corner arrests ... But saw for a brief period, Black kids playing in courtyards.
That crime bill was really, really bad; but, {clinch your cheeks white liberals} it was called for by the Black community.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the past 150 years?
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)DUers questioning what Black folks should/shouldn't support.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)The establishment politicians who continue to support more of the same are not to be trusted no matter the color of their skin.
That's why Bernie has such wide support: He's a real change from the establishment.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)do/aren't doing?
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I question any white folk's support for the establishment candidate - Hillary - because she represents more of the same oppression we all have to deal with.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)As does Bernie.
Hillary actually said on TV, in the debate, that she wanted to send poor homeless children who wanted to come to the US to maybe have a future, that she wanted to send them back to where they came from which was a place of oppression. Her statement made Bernie quite upset because he thought we should shelter these homeless children.
I wonder... if the kids were lily white, would Hillary have taken them in?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But he was talking about economic equality with white people.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)He wanted what was best for everyone. Anyone who uses MLK as a tool to divide is not someone who should be taken seriously.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)until it cuts against a useful interpretation.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)are black Bernie surrogates and supporters being exploited to talk down on black voters.
Most white folk didn't know who Michelle Alexander was until she started singing Bernie's praises. Same for Killer Mike. And many of them trashed BLM until they went after Hillary Clinton.
You guys are so transparent.
We just wanted you to know that WE SEE YOU and it's not helping your candidate at all.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)But most white folk don't know who Kissinger is and what he stands for, either.
Maybe you don't, so here's what he is famous for: Killing POC and destroying their countries. And guess who considers Kissinger as a good friend? Hillary does.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)But what does that have to do with this discussion?
And why continue to badger AA voters?
I'm being totally honest with you: The shit is offensive. It is insulting.
I'm asking you to stop.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)It is about who is best for everyone. I don't consider this division some here are so set upon to be something that is best for everyone.
And I don't think Hillary as president is best for everyone. She has shown her true colors and it's an ugly shade: Send them back! She said. Kissinger is my good friend! She claims.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 25, 2016, 06:00 PM - Edit history (1)
people. Astonishingly we agree! I do think he's a slightly better candidate, and I've never liked the Clintons. The only difference is that I don't agree with Bernie's "class over race" assertions. And I don't believe he can beat the Republican candidate. Even if he did win, I don't believe that he can get what he's promising done without compromising some of those liberal principles--something that his supporters don't want him to do. To be honest, I don't believe these things about HRC, either, but that's why I don't support either candidate right now.
But listen, that is OUR opinion.
I'm sorry that some folk simply cannot accept an alternative view. This is something that will happen.
And it seems that many folks have already made up their minds. You're not going to change those minds, and you certainly don't change minds by harassing, insulting and belittling people--and then demanding explanations for why they don't support your candidate.
It is what it is.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I am a student of history. The history leads me to believe that using division of the races leads to no good.
The leaders of the country lead. We would be foolish to elect a leader is friends with a known criminal, and who has no pity for poor homeless children seeking a better life in our country.
It is that simple. Everything else falls by the wayside. The elemental philosophy of Hillary is objectionable and disgusting.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)I'm going to grab a glass of wine after so much fussing and fighting, my head hurts.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)Makes me 
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)Am I turning you?
I would love to see more threads about white people supporting Cruz and Trump. They have lost their God damned minds to Jesus Juice and dreams of rolling around naked on confederate flags in front of mosques!
This site better spend more time worrying about those people than us.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If I cannot sleep tonight it will be your fault. I am glad that there was no image to forget.
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)
AzDar
(14,023 posts)Which is why I'm baffled by support for Hillary Clinton... Fortunately, there is a Candidate, who has been on the right side of history regarding nearly every issue, who has done NONE of the things mentioned above: Senator Bernie Sanders. You should check him out! 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)when you should be concerned with why white folks do the thing you do?
AzDar
(14,023 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)outside of the Black electorate.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)with something I've said personally?
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)Right now it reads:
"How Can Black People Trust Hillary After The 2008 Campaign
Then give comments in the op about that?
AzDar
(14,023 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)A lot of black folks at DU - we are more worried about white people with dreams of rolling around naked with guns on confederate flags in front of mosques than we are about Clinton and Sanders.
Those white folks are hopped up on Cruz's Jesus Juice and Trumps Hitler-request ideas.
They are the true non thinkers and the greatest threats to black Americans today.
You guys are worrying about the wrong thing. It's white American voters who are being foolish and blind. Not us.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)
I'm stealing that. obamanut2012
(26,076 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Or, is this solely about the Democratic Primary.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts) 
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Sociopaths come in all colors!!!
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)...and you think we're going to just sit there and take it?
No way! Not happening.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)And yes - they need to stop speaking down to us.
Shift their focus to white people supporting Cruz and Trump.
Those people are foul mouthed ignorant lazy pieces of shit looking for a hand out by taking things (literal possessions, homes, money, art, etc etc) of black people, Hispanics, Asians, muslims etc etc.
Why can't they see who the true enemies of our freedoms are. The 's' is deliberate.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)bothering to even read it, growing more obnoxious with each misinformed response.
(edited to remove supposition... no idea whom you support)
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Black voters are a big part of the Democratic party. Fortunately, for the most part they support Democrats. No political person in the Democratic party wouldn't be concerned. Black voters are the decisive voting block for Democrats in most of the red states.
We are in a struggle for the soul of the party. Remember we are talking about Democratic politics here. For reasons not readily apparent to many, a much larger percentage of black voters are supporting Hillary than from any other demographic except perhaps old white people. If Sanders was even competitive among black voters, this contest would be much different. Hillary wouldn't have her "firewall". She couldn't take primary wins for granted.
It's not to hard to see why old white people generally support her and why younger white people generally do not. It makes some sense for Latino voters to support her as well, though not overwhelmingly. Why does the black vote go to Hillary by such a large margin compared to other groups within the Democratic coalition? That is a major question, for which there is no apparent answer.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)and I think that is why Bernie Sanders is so popular. Do you think Sanders is untrustworthy?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But why is it of such concern what Black folks do/don't do?
Shouldn't you be questioning the 80% of white folks that support politicians?
polly7
(20,582 posts)Why is that a problem for you?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But please don't confuse the concern for why Black people might support/trust HRC to be the least concern for Black people.
polly7
(20,582 posts)You're the one who seems so intent on creating division by implying white people have no right to comment on which candidate offers more for black people - some of who may be suffering. They have every right to comment - we all need to look out for one another and lift up each other, no matter who we are - some here seem to believe in that - others, just pretend.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)candidate decided to run for office.
I have evidence upon evidence of HRC's racism from 2008 and every time I commented on it, I was told by the vast majority of DUers to shut up and support the candidate. But when Bernie entered the race, suddenly HRC's 2008 campaign was back in the spotlight, even though myself and many other POC DUers had been yelling about it for nearly 8 years.
Why now the sudden concern about racism that affects black people?
I call bullshit!
Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #53)
polly7 This message was self-deleted by its author.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Read that again ... then, tell me what "RIGHT" you have to tell ME what is best for ME.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I've seen them express their opinions on what has harmed people - again, they have every right.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)What was the OP about again?
polly7
(20,582 posts)Thorough Recap Of Her Racist Tactics Against Obama:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-rucker/can-black-people-trust-hillary_b_9312004.html
from the link:
Hillary Clinton appears to be playing cynical racial politics again, as she did in 2008. It’s just got a different look and feel.
Today, Clinton is wrapping herself in the flag of Obama to appeal to Black voters, arguing that she’s the candidate who will address the needs of Black people. She’s got her surrogates attacking her opponent’s civil rights bonafides, and she’s built a large stable of Black establishment players to support her. Clinton is proclaiming that Black Lives Matter and offering bold promises to fight systemic racism and inequality.
Clinton is now attacking Bernie Sanders for having criticized Obama, trying to take advantage of Black folks’ desire to defend the president. But it was Clinton herself who waged an incredibly nasty campaign of attacks and smears against Obama, going far beyond mere policy disagreements. A quick trip down memory lane reveals that Clinton has a history of employing race in a divisive, cynical manner.
It's questioning policies that have harmed people they have every right to have concern about. Simple, isn't it??
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Many of you didn't give a damn about the plight of black folk in 2008 or beyond. When we were screaming at the top of our lungs about the racism---not just from HRC's camp, but throughout the entire Barack Obama presidency, black people here were told to show proof or sit down. This was the truth. And many of us black DUers have been having discussions about our treatment over the years at this forum.
So I ask a pertinent question (and this question has been raised in the AA Group for anyone who is truly interested):
Why are people only now concerned about black people's issues when you weren't before?
And why are Sanders' supporters--the ones who typically argue that class distinctions are more important than race or racism--pretending to care about racism during this primary season? It is the Sanders supporters who are more likely to deemphasize racial discrimination in favor of class discrimination; or economic equality over racial or social justice goals.
So I ask again: Why all of the sudden do you care anything about black people when you didn't before?
(And note: Many black people are well aware of how both campaigns are exploiting race and pretending to care about race/racism by using black surrogates. This is something that we notice and fully understand is happening.)
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)...which was the main reason I supported Obama. And knowing her background, and that she'd use race and ugly smears again in 2016, is one reason I support Sanders now.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I and plenty others said last summer that these Brockian/Rovian swift-boating of Sanders and his supporters around race was a fucking repeat of her games from 2008. She was racist as fuck then and is more so now by using minorities as a wedge, a cudgel, and a 'firewall' to shore up her cred.
So give it a rest.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)I have a right to speak!
And I have been around here long enough.
The bottom line is that MOST people here didn't give a shit about racism or ANY issue affecting black people.
Only now do they care at all and that's because their said candidate is losing.
I've never witnessed such concern for us Negroes as I have during ANY time in our history.
Most of it is full of shit because there's a political agenda behind it.
Now, if my criticism doesn't apply to you, then you need to give it a rest and let others discuss.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)But that leads to another op - man / woman black community who shows up for who - and who gets told to give it a rest aka shut up.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)is telling me yet again that I am not the 'right' kind of PoC. 
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)black people for their choice of candidate.
I don't like either candidate, so I have no dog in this fight.
It is mainly Bernie Sanders supporters who are badgering black people in this way.
I'm telling you to vote for whomever you want...or be like me and not vote if you don't want to.
I've been the one who has been championing the cause for those who want to vote for whomever. They should have the right to do so.
It has been the Sanders supporters, who by and large, have been harassing black voters.
You have me confused with someone else.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Sharing endorsements, discussing his civil rights record (in the face of blatant Rovian swift-boating attacks against it!), and encouraging the study of his policies and positions that will support minorities as well as all Americans is simply not berating.
Why you choose to internalize it as such is about you. Not a single PoC that I have shared information with, discussed these things with, etc., in the real world out there has felt or expressed to me that they feel I am berating them or pushing them in any way. In fact, many were unaware of Sanders record.
I honestly only knew about Sanders strong anti-war record when the campaign began. I was pleased as punch to find out he fought for civil rights like my parents did. I was pleased as punch to find out that he supported my sister and her partner's civil and marriage rights while the Clintons were taking them away in the 1990's. Two large social issues for me PLUS the man wanted economic justice for all of us! Where do I sign up? 
Of course, we all have the adult right to vote or not vote for whomever we want. But to get upset as you seem to be on a political discussion forum when people are discussing these candidates and their respective histories seems self-defeating to say the least.
I vehemently disagree that Sanders supporters by and large are 'harassing' black voters. That is the meme I have already mentioned. It is false. It is being pushed and has been since last fucking May when he announced.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)support Hillary Clinton and then criticizing them for that vote?
You don't (or won't) see it.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Why are they voting for Clinton? She has an abysmal record when it comes to AA's. No one seems capable of explain why. Oh, they will attack Sanders in the reply. They will attack his supporters for asking. They will give a vague answer about 'evolving' and the 1990's are the 1990's. But I have not seen a single cogent answer given as to why.
AA's are NOT monolithic. No minority or majority race or gender group is. To pretend they are is ridiculous and objectifying. We don't think all alike, we don't act all alike, etc. You and I get this. Clinton supporters push the meme that these minority communities are this. They are firewalls. They are 100% in the bag for Clinton. They objectify us. I see Sanders supporters responding to that. If y'all are like this why? And sadly, I have found over all my years is that it does not matter the community, we have all have a horrible habit of being and remaining ignorant and voting against our own best self interests.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)but it is here. And this criticism is from someone looking in.
I don't like for my people to be disrespected. I don't care who's doing the deed...even when it's coming from a side that I most likely agree with.
Neither side is clean on this. I've been consistent in this criticism, too. Neither side has clean hands.
TM99
(8,352 posts)some assholes in the Sanders camp. There are assholes in any camp!
But given that the majority of DU posters at least currently are Sanders supporters I will maintain that it is a very small minority. I can only recall one thread this past summer where I saw a Sanders supporter call the BLM activists thugs. And I also saw other Sanders supporters speak out against that even while remaining true to their valid criticisms.
I do worry that you may be trying to be so fair that you may be making a false equivalent. I would only ask that you remain open to that thought. I am not pushing. 
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)until I am proven time and time again to be wrong as my father used to say.
TM99
(8,352 posts)The majority of Sanders supporters were calling out Clinton's 2008 racist campaign while it occurred and starting last summer when she began the 'Sanders is not strong on civil rights and is not strong with PoC' meme.
Valid criticisms of other things, great. Allowing oneself to be used by the Clinton Machine to perpetuate this meme, is quite another.
That was all.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)Shes been putting her down long before this past summer.
She is the ULTIMATE CALL OUT HRC person at DU!
TM99
(8,352 posts)than I have seen call outs.
I will trust you on this as I have always respected you even when we may disagree.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)They cannot see how DANGEROUS the Trump supporters are.
I have two ways out of America when it becomes AmeriKKKa - but many do not.
His supporters are more dangerous than the man himself.
TM99
(8,352 posts)no matter how much we may want it to do so.
Clinton has run a horribly vicious campaign. She is burning bridges left and right. She continues to insult broad voting blocks that she and her supporters need. She has her surrogates out attacking Sanders and his supporters constantly starting the moment he announced.
There will be no kumbaya moment in 2016. The disenfranchised and independents can not be brow beaten and then forced into line even if the fear mantra that is being pushed is in many cases real.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)We've got a serious problem here and it ain't anyone supporting Clinton or Sanders.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)a greater attack from the right on Hillary Clinton. If she was so easy to beat, they'd go after Bernie Sanders. They won't. Why? Because they hope he's the nominee. He'll get crushed in the GE.
TM99
(8,352 posts)It is Clinton they want to fight and win against. It always has been. Trump will eat her for breakfast. And we will all suffer because of the party politics and establishment games. This is a year of populism. The choice remains to be seen whether enough will recognize that this zeitgeist is surfacing. Will they choose an FDR style progressive populism updated for the 21st century offering economic & social justice or will they choose a Mussolini/Franco style fascist populism updated for the 21st century offering hatred and societal harm.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)The perception of Sanders I think more closely matches his reality than the perception of Clinton does hers. I am sorry but she is a narcissist. The persona management ensures an incongruency that will always leave us scratching our heads and saying to ourselves, did that just happen? How can she say one thing a decade ago or last week and another thing tomorrow or next month? My biggest problem is the lies. There are just too many for me, and apparently many others, to fully trust her to even remotely do what she says she might do. I trust that even if Sanders can not deliver on his campaign promises, he won't lie to me. He just doesn't have a history of that.
The GOP does not want to run against an honest man. They want to run against an dishonest woman.
TM99
(8,352 posts)David Duke did NOT endorse Sanders. He is voting for Trump whom he just endorsed yesterday.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-02-25/david-duke-voting-against-trump-is-treason-to-your-heritage
We know the right has a greater amount of racists than the left. But why would you suggest that this is about Sanders or his supporters when it is patently false!?
AzDar
(14,023 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)Well, at least I hope she did!
Duke formally endorsed Trump on Wednesday. 
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)
TM99
(8,352 posts)and your disdain for Clinton.
I get that you are trying to 'raise awareness' with Sanders supporters. I just don't agree that it has to be so broad given what I have witnessed here and off of the internet.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I am pushing back against a baseless argument that you continue to promote.
And I am fucking bi-racial so quit the victim-hood shit with me. I was dealing with racism before you were born.
You are broad brushing a very large group that has acted quite contrary to the attack you are levelling against them. I will stand up against that. I come from a generation where allies mattered. I come from a generation where my white mother and my black father fought together for civil rights. I have seen good progressive white men and white women attacked here from a small vocal minority of posters for shit they didn't do, shit they don't believe, and for shit that isn't about them.
You are right, your criticism doesn't apply to me. You are wrong because you believe it applies to so many others.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)It seems that many folks have already made up their minds. You're not going to change those minds, and you certainly don't change minds by harassing, insulting and belittling people--and then demanding explanations for why they don't support your candidate.
I just hope in the end we can find a way to come together.
I'm hoping this for the sake of the Democratic Party AND the country.
We cannot afford a Trump, Cruz or Rubio presidency. We simply can't.
We all must agree on that last point, no?
TM99
(8,352 posts)that it won't happen this time.
Clinton campaign 2008 and now 2016 have been so racist, vicious, swift-boating, and vile that many disenfranchised and independents are simply not going to vote the lesser of two evils.
I registered as Democrat for the first time in my life (I was in an open primary state when I voted for Jackson) just so I could vote for Sanders. He inspires me. His political philosophy and policy goals are closer to mine than what I have seen in a major two party candidate, well, really in my entire life. After voting today absentee, next week I will leave the party. They have made it abundantly clear that I am not welcome. I am a libtard emo-prog hippie who just wants free stuff. That message does not instill loyalty. That is the real abusive and harassing dialog that has been here and elsewhere this election season.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)The only difference is that he hasn't inspired me yet, and I can't support HRC. I just can't.
Even if we get to the Maryland primary at the end of April and she's the only candidate standing, I won't cast my vote for her. I just can't.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I don't think you can push 'passion' for a candidate on anyone.
For me, he is the best of several candidates I have voted for in the past. He cares about all of us the way Jackson and his Rainbow Coalition did. He cares about corporate malfeasance and the environment they way Nader did. He exhibits an honesty and congruency like Carter did. And he is not a neoliberal but a leftist progressive like traditional Democrats - FDR, LBJ, JFK, Truman, etc. . I trust him not to triangulate. He might compromise as adults do but never triangulation which harms and continues to harm all of us.
I respect your feelings about Clinton. I have dealt with the Clinton Machine since I was stationed in Arkansas in the 1980's. I couldn't vote for Bill even once. I won't vote for Hillary either.
dr60omg
(283 posts)Class is just one inter-animating factor which includes race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality (the two are distinct ideas), region, race, religion, age cohort etc ... one cannot be divorced from the other ...
Remember when Gloria Steinem said during the 2008 primary that gender was more important than race (and I am paraphrasing)? Well how can you divorce gender from race (or any other inter-animating process) for example when we think about affirmative action the reality is that the people who benefitted the most were white women.
I hope that helps a bit
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 25, 2016, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)
be feminist have a history of divorcing gender from race. Even Steinem herself has criticized the movement precisely because white women didn't give a shit about race.
That is why Angela Davis, Alice Walker, and other black feminists of note eventually abandoned the mainstream Feminist Movement. They noted that white women almost wholly ignored the issues that disproportionately affect black people in general and black women (and other women of color), in particular.
That is why Bernie Sanders is wrong. Yes, there is intersectionality when it comes to race and class, but that is not the entire picture and Bernie and his supporters either don't get or cannot accept this. I understand. Many of them are not black men or women--so they will never understand this. But rather than just dismissing what POC have to say, we've been subjected to the worse kind of insults, arrogance, condescension...and yes, unfortunately, racism coming from that side.
So many of us in the AA have been having these discussing because we don't believe that concerns about race, especially from the Sanders supporters, are sincere. What we see is that every time someone of color who supports Sanders comes out, that POC Bernie supporter or surrogate is exploited to bash and demean black people who aren't on the Bernie Sanders' bandwagon.
Yes, HRC have been guilty of the same, but we see it from BOTH campaigns and it needs to stop!
dr60omg
(283 posts)I think we ought not look at the supporters but to go back into the historic record which is long ... one of the problems of campaigns particularly at this odd juncture in history is that the internet is a misinformation highway that spins and is a lot worse now even than it was in 2008 ... there is no news ... So, I prefer going back to databases that look at the time period and posting who said what during what time period ...
What do we know about Sanders and what do we know about Clinton? What are their speeches statements etc over time ... so when I look at the crime bill we can find what someone said on the congressional record and then we can go back into the news databases to find out what the idea was what the person said we can also go and see who that person supported and what they supported over time https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-1994-04-13/html/CREC-1994-04-13-pt1-PgH49.htm
Who did these different players as congresspeople and governors and presidents etc support in the past for office, for president and for what reason ... But, again I know that many people writing online here are not Black or Brown and are White and that produces a sort of erasure and effacement ...
I don't know what people who are supporters of either campaign say or do. I do know they cannot be held accountable for the candidate they profess to support. So, my questions are what do the candidates have to say and what did they say over time during their careers? I don't go to surrogates either because of people that become attached to power games (just like I said about Dolores Huerta she may be a heroine but she is not a saint nor is she a god or goddess). So, I urge people to go back over the record and ask questions (not you specifically but I hear so much spinning I am getting vertigo)
But I thank you for your critique
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)condescension or harassment.
All I'm saying is that at least at DU, there's a fairly even split: Some of us are Bernie supporters, some are HRC supporters, and others like me are neutral.
Whatever these voters decide to do in the end is their business.
No one is owed an explanation for why they are voting the way they are voting. And they certainly don't deserve to be ridiculed or insulted for that vote.
This is all I and many other AAs are saying.
And if people really cared rather than pretending to care or be concerned about racism, they should go over to the AA forum. There are several, very informative threads that have been pinned at the top. Those threads contain thoughtful discussions on the black vote.
Much appreciated.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)I knew back them what she was and she has given me NO reason to think she is any different now.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)If what I have stated doesn't apply, don't respond. Allow others to do so.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)thereismore
(13,326 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)dropped out, I became a fan of John Edwards (don't laugh). Finally when it was down to Hillary and Obama, I went with Obama, because as I've stated since I came to DU, I have never liked the Clintons. In fact, I hate Bill and Hilary Clinton.
Yes, sadly, I was a Naderite, voting for him in 1996 and again in 2000. I didn't even consider myself a Democrat back then.
In fact, I changed my party affiliation from "Green" to "Democrat" in 2004 in support of John Kerry, having been turned off completely by the Greens. (They eventually ousted Ralph Nader, but by then it was too late; I had already left.)
I supported and worked hard for Obama in 2008, even traveling to many states to work for the campaign during the primary. It was during that primary that I witnessed first hand the hate and racism from the HRC side. Not only from her surrogates and husband, but from on-the-ground voters.
In Harrisburg--another life changing event--I met Ted Kennedy and Bob Casey. Casey had recently endorsed Obama. Ted Kennedy endorsed him after Hillary disgustingly alluded to Robert Kennedy's assassination, knowing fully well that Obama was receiving an unprecedented number of death threats.
I would share my experiences (under another username) here at DU, only to have HRC supporters dismiss claims of even blatant racism, instead complaining about sexism from the Obama camp. They were vicious. And in fact, there was a similar badgering of AA voters who had shifted from Clinton to Obama--why were AA's voting for Obama? He is this and he is that...
Anyway, my disdain for the Clintons is legendary here at DU, and most people who know me here know this.
That is why I'm raising these questions, because I swear that AAs here at DU have been getting hit over their heads in an ironic twist--some (certainly not all) supporting Hillary Clinton.
I'm witnessing similar behavior, similar hypocrisy, similar feigned outrage.
After the election was over, and people of color continued to raise issues about race and racism, a lot of times there would be little to no concern or understanding. And honestly, even though I'm leaning Bernie Sanders, his bashing of the president, even calling for him to be primaried, did him no favors with me.
We get to the BLM movement, and there was a great deal of terrible things said about the activists, even deflections around so-called "black on black crime" and respectability politics and much less sympathy for AAs who were trying to raise awareness around police brutality.
I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that I remember screaming about Clinton's record and having my words and arguments dismissed.
So now I can't be questioned about the sudden concern over Clintons' record on black issues when those issues were largely dismissed prior to this election. Honestly I am astonished by the hypocrisy on all sides. I'm picking on Bernie Sanders because there are far more of them here on DU and I see how they are using black Bernie Sanders supporters to attack AA voters.
Candidates rarely care about issues affecting black people until we get to election time. The fact that both candidates have to court black voters NOW is a testament to that.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)so far. I became political as a big Bill Clinton fan in 1991. I went to see him on campus in 1992. Then, a total heartbreak happened in 2000. I thought John Kerry was going to pull it off in 2004, I really did. That's when I found DU. Come 2008, Obama all the way. If somebody told me now that I could have Obama for 4 more years I'd be ecstatic. I love him even as I criticize some of his policies, mainly TPP, and of course, the no-prosecution of war criminals. Then I got distracted by minor life events such as unemployment and mortgage delinquency. Here comes 2016 and the same Hillary runs again as a guardian of Obama's legacy and I want to get a lobotomy. I can't stand the hypocrisy of her. When she started making more appearances last Spring, my entire immune system, primed by her 2008 campaign, went into overdrive. I find her so fake I can't believe anything that she says even when I agree with it. I think she also seriously hurt Obama by her choices regarding the server and State secrets. She hurt millions by her policies toward Libya and the resulting onslaught of migrants into Europe, which is where I grew up. My outrage over Hillary's well-controlled almost hidden racism is not feigned. I always thought Bernie handled BLM better, never once saying "All lives matter." I don't understand how black people can live in this society for generations with no justice, just platitudes and scraps from the establishment - the political "soul food." I frankly do not understand why most of black people in the South especially prefer Clinton when they can vote for a guy who actually chained himself to black people protesting segregation. THAT is something I'd like to understand. When I so much as whisper that it may be because they haven't heard enough about him yet some black posters here yelled me down for being condescending to black people, that they know best what's good for them. I don't doubt that, but don't tell me that every single black person knows every single thing about Bernie or Hillary to make a perfectly qualified decision. Am I racist for thinking that? Perhaps. There is a lot of vitriol around here. All I can do is stand up for my principles. We all do.
dr60omg
(283 posts)I started supporting the President very early on. I even took a sabbatical to work on the campaign. And, I voted for the President.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)togetherforever
(71 posts)
TDale313
(7,820 posts)Look, mostly I've stayed quiet on this. As a white woman, I've mostly felt the best thing I could do was listen and not lecture African Americans on who they should support and what was best for them. But (and if this makes me clueless I'll own that): After all these months I'm still kinda baffled by the appeal she has for African Americans (or maybe more why Bernie hasn't been able to connect) I don't quite get it. Maybe I don't need to, but there it is.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)thoughtful discussion there.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)
emulatorloo
(44,124 posts)tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)
Tarc
(10,476 posts)and will again on Super Tuesday.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)
VulgarPoet
(2,872 posts)
TM99
(8,352 posts)Persona management at its finest until the mask drops and you see the truth unscripted.
obamanut2012
(26,076 posts) rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)it appears the majority of them play the game the same way.