Since Catholics don't want their insurance to pay for birth control, does that mean that.....

[YewNork]

Muslims and Jews can insist food stamps cannot be used to buy pork products, because their tax dollars help fund the food stamp program?

[brewens]

1. Wouldn't that be priceless to see a big push on that from Muslims and Jews. The

(insert derogatory term) want to take away your bacon! That's a great example of what can happen when you insist on breaking down the barrier between church and state.

[2labslib]

4. Someone send this idea to The Onion!

Watching all the outrage over it would be hysterical!

[RC]

2. Absolutely!

Carry this BS far enough and it will put the insurance companies out of business.
Single Payer anyone?

[southernyankeebelle]

3. Don't use ALL catholics with that brush. We all don't feel like that.

[Angry Dragon]

6. How are we suppose to know who the good and bad catholics are??

The way I see it is that the catholic church wants everyone in this country to live the way the church thinks it should be. They use tax free money to promote their aganda. They get this money from the people that attend this church. So anyone that gives money to the catholic church helps promote this agenda.

I know a lot of people that call themselves catholic but rarely if at all go to church.

The question begs, which group do you fall into.

[southernyankeebelle]

10. I don't give to the catholic church or to any church contributions. I give only to indiviuals or

local area non-christain places. I give to children's causes and elderly causes. Not one dime to any church. I am not into any organizated church any longer. I consider myself a catholic. I didn't leave the church and god. The church left us.

[TexasProgresive]

13. How do wie know who the good and bad people are???

Your broad brush can cut more ways. The position you take could be considered rank prejudice.

When it comes to money most of it from my parish goes to pay the bills.

[Angry Dragon]

18. Where is my broadbrush??

In what I stated where am I wrong??

[_ed_]

30. Reminds me of a great David Cross joke:

"It's not that all Republicans are racist, it's just the people they choose to represent them in public office."

[treestar]

26. Most of what people give to the church is to maintain their particular parish

Eventually the top of the hierarchy will have to catch up with the people If 98% of Catholic use birth control, then that doctrine is not going to survive much longer.

[niyad]

11. no, but the ones in charge do--and I don't hear a lot of the faithful challenging the hierarchy

for their insanity, whether over this, or the sex abuse scandals, or anything else.

it's nice to say that "we don't all feel that way", but you aren't the ones in charge, and the lunatics in charge do.

[southernyankeebelle]

12. I stopped going to organized church long ago. I still believe and will at times watch a mass on tv.

But just like a Jewish person born in his/her faith so am I born into my catholic faith. The hierarchy are not speaking for many of us. But we don't want to be excommunicated either. Sorry if you aren't satisfied with that. I respect your right not to agree with me. Its very hard to explain how many of us love our faith in god and separate from the hierachy bs. I wish and I know someday will be allowed to become priest. I may not see it but I hope my granddaughter will. After all there was a time little girls couldn't be altar girls. I have 2 nieces who are.

[jeff47]

14. As long as you identify yourself with the crazy people running the show...

As long as you identify yourself with the crazy people running the show, you are going to get some paint on you.

Your options are to change what you identify yourself as, or change the people running the show.

Until one or the other happens, I recommend wearing old clothes you don't mind getting some paint on. Because by not doing either one, you are agreeing with the people in charge.

[southernyankeebelle]

15. Thanks fine jeff. I don't really need anyones approval to believe in god and the church I grew up

in. I don't know the church you are talking about. I am 64 yrs old and never have seen any priest act like that. But if I do you can bet I will report him and not to the bishop or cardinal. I will call the police. I know how to do the right thing. Besides that you can find crazy in anyones church. Believe me Iworked in a church and saw alot of crazy different faiths. But I don't paint everyone with the same brush. I rather meet a person one on one.

[jeff47]

16. The reason I'm not even going to consider no longer painting

is that's the only way the church will change. From their own membership rising up against them - they frankly don't give a damn what those of us outside think.

So as long as the church bosses insist on fucking with my life, I'm not going to give any Catholic "the benefit of the doubt". Don't like it? Then complain to the ones trying to assert their power over my life.

If you find that unpleasant, well having a bishop climb into my marital bed is a lot more unpleasant.

[southernyankeebelle]

17. I see your point. I don't want to change your mind. I feel the same way but I don't feel that way

about the whole church. So lets agree to disagree and we can still be civil as we have been. Thank again.

[_ed_]

19. Then why do you attend and support a church you don't agree with?

It's like a liberal person being a Republican and saying "Don't use ALL Republicans with that brush. We all don't feel like that."

[southernyankeebelle]

23. I can't explain it to you. I was born and raised in the church. I am not a practicing catholic but

that doesn't mean I don't believe in my church. It's the pope, cardinals and bishops I don't trust. I would trust my local priest because he usually deals with people.

[_ed_]

28. I was also born and raised Catholic

So what? I realized that I shouldn't be a part of an organization that demonizes gay people and is actively preventing them from enjoying full franchise in American life. The Catholic church is a hate group.

You say "that doesn't mean I don't believe in my church." Yes, it does. You just said you don't agree with the pope, cardinals, and bishops. That's the leadership of the Catholic church, and those are the men who determine the articles of your faith.

So why be a part of a hate group with respect to gay people when you already admit you don't agree with the leadership of the church?

[southernyankeebelle]

31. Good for you. I just can't do it. I am sorry I can't do it. I believe in many of the church's

teachings. It is enough I don't give to the church any longer or go to an organized church. But I won't give up my religion. I believe in the teachings. I have no problem with that. None of the churchs are free from some crimes they do we don't see. I have faith and pray and I don't need to go to an organized church. So let's respect each enough to disagree. I don't think I am going to change your mind and you aren't going to change mine. We don't need to get a heartattack over it. Well at least for me that is (LOL). I want to hear from you again. I am sure there are areas we will most agree on. This is nothing compared to the many issues this country is going through and I am sure you agree.

[_ed_]

35. You are a member of an organization that

dehumanizes my brother and several of my friends just because they are gay. I don't care if you agree with anything else they teach. I don't respect hate and I don't respect people that belong to hate groups.

[southernyankeebelle]

40. Ok. I really have enough of my own worries to worry about. Peace be with you.

[_ed_]

45. Whatever. I'd encourage you if you consider yourself a liberal

to leave a homophobic and sexist organization. If not, be prepared to defend your organization. Like I said, religion is a choice, and you are choosing to remain in a organization that is antithetical to modern, progressive values.

[southernyankeebelle]

47. Peace ed

[treestar]

27. Same as any other group

No one will agree with every single thing.

[_ed_]

29. Not the same as any other group

Membership in the Catholic church is a choice. The church has a set of ideas about the world that it teaches its members. If you don't agree with the church's teachings, then there's no reason to be a Catholic.

It's like a person who is pro-choice and anti-war being a Republican. You wouldn't say: "well, Republicans don't agree on everything." If you don't agree with the core tenets of a particular organization, there is no reason to be a member of it.

Especially when such an organization demonizes gays and lesbians, and women in general.

[treestar]

32. The Church has some good teachings, though

And it has changed its positions on things before.

[_ed_]

36. The church is homophobic, sexist, and

was more concerned about covering up child rape than confronting the problem. Who gives a shit what else they do?

What are these good teachings, anyway? That gay people do not deserve rights? Women cannot hold positions of authority? It's better for millions to die of AIDS in Africa than use condoms? Abortion is always wrong? Family planning is sinful?

Not to mention that there's not a shred of evidence that one word of it is even true...

[treestar]

43. Helping the poor, being against capital punishment

The Church has some liberal aspects to it.

[_ed_]

44. You can help the poor and be against the death penalty

without supporting a homophobic and sexist organization.

[fugop]

5. The wrong argument

I have NEVER understood why people take up the argument over the topic of the day (in this case, birth control) instead of just arguing the general concept. Someone says, "I don't want to pay for your birth control," choose from the following:

1. I don't want to pay for your lung cancer since I don't have it.
2. I don't want to pay for your ER care after your car accident since I'm a better driver.
3. I don't want to pay for your military, since I don't believe in war.
4. I don't want to pay for your schools since my kids are out already.
5. I don't want to pay for your ... insert item of choice here.

I LOATHE the arguments that someone shouldn't have to pay for something they don't "believe" in - because that's just not how things work in a functioning society like ours. We all pay for at least some things that we need as a country but not necessarily as individuals. If I could check a box and just pay for education and healthcare, I would, but I understand it doesn't work like that.

Instead, the argument too often goes to specifics, and usually it's about religion. My basic answer is usually no. 3, but it's the concept that should be the main argument, I think. We're a society. We're supposed to be in this together. I'm sick of those selfish SOBs in the GOP whose main life philosophy appears to be, "I'll get mine, so screw everybody else."

[Larkspur]

7. You can add "I don't want to pay for the tax benefits the Catholic Church gets"

The Catholic Church doesn't pay federal taxes. I think they only pay property taxes on their church buildings.
I'm not sure about their hospitals and charities they run.

[Lil Missy]

8. I'm sure most Catholics DO want their insurance to cover birth control. It's only

GOP politicians, with the help of some religious extremist nutbags, that want to manufacture a wedge issue.

[_ed_]

20. Those Catholics are hypocrites

If you're a public member of an organization that is anti-contraception like the Catholic church, and you privately use such contraception, you're a hypocrite of the highest order.

What would happen if the 98% of Catholics who use contraception just left the church? Yeah -- we wouldn't have to hear from old, white men in silly outfits about how we should treat our sex lives.

If you're a member of a Catholic church, this is YOUR faith and YOUR faith leaders. If you disagree, leave the church. If you stay in the church, be prepared to be criticized for your associations. Religion is a choice.

[steveorg]

22. Most faithful of any stripe are hypocrites

The problem is that the Bible (and other foundational texts) is too easily interpreted to support any position. Three bible experts debating any topic will come out with 5 different conclusions. That's why the Christian world is so fractured. That is how Christianity could be such an important element in supporting the institution of slavery.

Religious Christians tend to use the Bible in a way that suits them. It may buck the hierarchy, but that doesn't necessarily conflict with how they pick and choose their personal interpretations of the Bible. A Picker and Chooser (my synonym for religious types) freely rejects even the most straightforward Biblical admonishment. For example, modern Pickers and Choosers do not stone adulterers to death. Could you imagine Newt, as a serial adulterer, agreeing that he should have been stoned to death multiple times?

[treestar]

25. But then it's getting to a good point there

If 90% use it, then soon the men in silly outfits are going to have to accept that.

Church doctrines do change.

[Iggo]

9. Yes. That is exactly correct.

[rox63]

21. Jehovah's Witnesses would be able to insist that insurance not cover blood transfusions

And I'm not sure that Christian Scientists would want insurance to cover anything other than faith healing.

[treestar]

24. But exactly

This is why the right's "separation of church and state (which they suddenly care about) is a logic fail. Just because your insurance covers it does not mean you "have" to use it. A Catholic who follows that rule (in the minority) can still go without birth control - that choice is still there.

[CreekDog]

33. It's wrong to say that Catholics don't want their insurance to pay for this

disagreeing with one's religion's leadership's current positions on things is as old as humanity.

[_ed_]

37. That makes as much sense as a liberal

being a Republican. If you don't agree with an organization's fundamental teachings, why be a member at all? Religion is a choice.

[CreekDog]

41. Why are you arguing with me? It's a simple fact that people don't agree

Very simple observation that people don't agree with every detail of their religions.

As for why people don't leave? Would you marry someone who didn't agree with you 100% of the time?

[_ed_]

46. I wouldn't marry someone who demonizes gay people

and supports keeping women as second-class citizens.

People are responsible for their associations. No one said anything about agreeing with 100% of what they do. The Catholic church is a hate group.

[Brettongarcia]

34. ... pacifist Quakers don't have to pay the portion of income tax, that supports the Defense Dept.?

[_ed_]

39. Yeah, just like Muslim business owners

get to force you to wear a burkha.

[NOI4I]

38. Not sure what you are really sayin'

If you receive foodStamps you buy whatever food you want/choose.

[quaker bill]

42. no

WHile I don't support their stand, food stamps are a direct government subsidy. The purchase of insurance is an entirely private matter that does not use federal funds. Your analogy does not hold water.

However, as a Quaker, I would love to stop paying tax dollars for war. I don't mind the taxes, just would prefer my dollars to go to schools, protecting the environment, or something non-military like that.