2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI'd suggest focusing on the Escalated Racism from the GOP rather than each otehr
(Note: Yes I changed the original headline.)
The circular firing squad on the left half of the political spectrum has been uncannily accurate in this primary. Race and otehr social issues have become a wedge for reasons that are nonsensical.
People who probably agree at least 85 percent on matters of race and social issues are shooting at each other in the circle.
I'll steer clear of my own theories for the reasons this has come about.
But as an idiot white guy, I would like to point something out.
Once the primaries are over, there is going to be an election that will Intensify issues of racism. discrimination, bigotry against AA's, Muslims, Latinos...along with Women's Rights. LGBT Rights.....and anyone else that falls outside of the White Conservative Template. It will be a full frontal attack on all of the policies that support racial advancement, civil rights, LGBT rights, criminal justice, immigration, anti-discrimination, voting rights, reproductive freedom....the whole ball of wax.
Those differences far outweigh and transcend this self-destructive sniping and feuding in the circular firing squad. It might be wise to, as the saying goes, keep your powder dry because we're all going to need it.
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bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Think hard now.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)In one sense the US has "already been" struggling with these issues since the first colonists first set foot on the shores.
But in the framework of this electoral cycle....well, the rest of my OP
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)year, and many years proceeding- and that is JUST the politicians. It's ongoing.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)than the Obama years. There has been a whole lot of ugly.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I am well aware of that.
But an ugly new chapter is about to start.
2banon
(7,321 posts)apparently. 
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)the ones who are threatening to sit the election out if Bernie is not the nominee- need to start thinking about how willing they are dismiss POC with bullshit about "identity politics" and "wedge issues" in order to get what THEY want.
We aint never STOPPED dealing with it... Some folks may not know that tho...
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Refer to reply three.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)make you notice in retrospect. I do know you mean well, but....
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Let me rephrase my point of the OP.
It is going to be entering a new chapter and will ratcheted up.
The GOP right wing currently have their own circular firing squad. But once they get that sorted out....
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)Do you think they haven't been fighting the real battles of racism all the time?
What you are warning of is every damn day for a lot of people.
The GOP ain't got nothing on the things you are warning people about, many of us live it every day.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Read my posts above. THere are only so many ways to say that I understand that, but it coukd get much worse if people who basically agree want to bicker while there are people at the gates who really want block and set back progress in the comong election.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)it really has been a hallmark of the Obama years. One step forward, two back.
I do not think you're stupid at all. Just seemed odd you'd think we're all not anticipating this, after the Palin campaigns, all bets are off. Going to be racist, sexist, ugly and stupid, no doubt. There's no other way for them.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And yet, Progressives that have been the President's supporters and defenders from the 2008 primaries through his entire presidency are being made out to be racists for no good reason except to help a white, former Goldwater girl corporatist under criminal investigation limp across the finish line to the nomination.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"not good enough" to Bernie. People went nuts and started repeating that this was calling him racist.
I call bullshit.
and I am just a woman...
this op has white mansplaining all over it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)It going to be a major issue with a Trump candidacy, but it will be part of any Republican candidacy, should they stop him.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)I will vote for the Democrat regardless who wins because the alternative would be a nightmare. The repub's are racist to the core and I am lily white (I so wish I had more melanin because I instantly burn in the sun). People are people, character is what counts.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)Here is an example of the imaginary sort:
Armstead
(47,803 posts)
Punkingal
(9,522 posts)
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)and incredibly dismissive of people who go through EVERYTHING every day that you are trying to warn people about.
We are all gonna need it, that is for damn sure -- but I will tell you this with confidence, you, as a white guy could have been listening to women, latino's, blacks, LGBTQ and just about every other minority for the past few years.
Hell, to be really honest: for the past many decades.
As a woman, I don't think you need to explain it me, as a woman, I wanted you to listen to us as well as the voices of the people you mentioned in your OP.
We have all been confronting it for decades, we need white men to start listening to us and how we are trying to solve these issues.
Don't be an idiot white guy, be an ally.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Talking to, reading or any other thing since the 1960s.
Your assumptions of my life experiences and influences fir the last 63 years are so far off base...and you are doing exactly what I am referring to.
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)I am with you!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I've been dealing with racism my whole life.
Obama had to deal with racism throughout his entire presidency.
Blacks and other minorities have been dealing with this "full frontal attack" our whole lives.
Welcome to the party.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Showing their "concern" for the Supreme Court. Hmm...
Autumn
(45,096 posts)Every person will have a target on their back.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)like 24/7/365-6
Having said that...
In spite of the vitriol here, I actually do think this is an important discussion for us to have now precisely BECAUSE of what we will have to face in the coming months...so I don't think this is unhealthy at all.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)But if you think that dividing is a healthy way to prepare to combate the hordes that really want to make it more difficult, be my guest
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)is just as "real" as the racism that will be faced from Trump supporters (it does take on a different form, most of the time), so I disagree with you there as well.
And it is not "divisive" to point that out.
You're asking me to "shelve it" at a strategic level...but if I did, that would make me an enabler of the racism that I see here and among "allies" as well, and I am not going to do that.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)That I agree with you totally about racism, here and everywhere.
And I beleive we should discuss, debate and even argue about it in painfulky honest (but mutually resoectful) ways We need to get a better handle on how we all perceive things, and hopefully do something constructive about it on all levels....America needs to do that on a widespread basis.
But the problem with using a primary election between candidates who shre similar basic views as the basis of that isb that such duscussions get sidetracked by partisan crap.
Like if one person supports Clinton and another supports Sanders, the arguments simply become tools to gain political advantage.. IT becomes a pissing match to prove that our candidate is more racislly conscious than yours....Or your candidate is more racist thsn mine...and we get pissed off for superfluous reasons. And pretty soon labeling supporters of one candidate or the other asc racists, or race baiters, or opportunists, or the other stuff thst getscfoung around.
And the conversation about race thus gets sidetracked abd distorted by these other motivations and political groupthink.
if we are ton discuss differences in perspectives, then it should focus on that on its own terms, without that overlsy.
And as I said in the OP, ifvthere is division and animosity because of candidate a over b, then that will make it much harder to unite to face the GOP, who basically is opposed to everything the supporters of Clinton and Sanders stand for.
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)confront that......finally. It should have happened a long ago. Damn republicans!
YCHDT
(962 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)Give equal time to the kkk? 
jsmirman
(4,507 posts)on the basis of your white perception.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)As a white guy and half Jewish boy I have been confronting bigotry all my life, but nothing like my brothers and sisters of color, as our differences aren't immediately physically obvious, however history has shown us folks can find out easily enough, the supremacists I expect to confront in the Fall just lack the tact or inclination to camouflage their feelings.
yardwork
(61,622 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)
Skinner
(63,645 posts)1) When you use the phrase "REAL RACISM" to refer to what we will be facing in the general election, you are dismissing the concerns expressed by African Americans and other minorities during primary season as being "fake racism." You are saying that you do not sympathize with their concerns. You are calling those concerns not real.
2) If you really think we are going to be facing "REAL RACISM" in the general election, and you are holding up this "REAL RACISM" as something genuinely BAD, then why on earth do some people on this website go around selling the outrageous fiction that the general election doesn't matter? And what message does that send, if you can hold up the Republicans as the ULTIMATE RACISTS and then say you're not going to do the minimum necessary to stop them: Vote for the only candidate that can beat them. Are you prepared to state outright that you are voting for the Democratic nominee? Because if you don't support the nominee, then this is what you are enabling:
When people suggest that they are going to sit out the general election, they are saying that these issues don't matter! That type of talk is PERVASIVE on this website, and what message does it send to people whose lives are directly affected by racism and other bigotry? It sends the message that the speaker does not care.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)First of all, I have not advocated "sitting out the election" over this.
Why did I use the phrase "REAL Racism"? It was NOT to dismiss the very real racism that has been at the core of the US throughout its history, and today. Nor to imply that it and related issues should not be part of the political process and overall debates. But if you look at what's on the horizon with the GOP crew -- that is REAL Racism, in terms of what exists now will be amplified many times. Perhaps a better term would be AN INTENSIFICATION OF RACISM.
I totally agree that we need a frank, complete and ongoing conversation about race on DU and throughout the US. It is long overdue. But placing it in the context of this primary, IMO, has distorted that, and mixes up honest dialogue with the tussles for and against particular candidates.
My point was that in this primary with these candidates, both Sanders and Clinton share the same values and goals on that and most other social issues. There may be some differences on some specifics, as in any issue. And those should be aired when they are real specific differences. But overall, the issue of racism and policies that encourage that are not a major bone of contention between the candidates. We are fighting over things we basically all agree on, ultimately.
Sanders was mischaracterized in the beginning, when he was introducing himself to the public, with whispering campaigns and less subtle insinuations that he is a racist, "does not care about Black people" or "has a problem" with AAs....along with women, Latinos and other minorities.
Unfortunately, he was put in a bad spot with the BLM protest, when he got momentarily testy, which was then transmitted as amplifying that claim of racial insensitivity. Clinton did not bother to show up to Netroots Nation so she was spared that. Perhaps if she had gone and also had to answer to the protesters, the image that was created that day would have been different.
And many of us who support Sanders got angry and defensive because the image of Sanders that was created is patently ridiculous and disingenuous. He has stood up and fought all his life for all forms of social and racial justice -- far more than most politicians, and often at times when it was against the prevailing popular and political mood. (He is, for example, one of the few in Congress to get up the floor of the House in the 90's and say that the Crime Bill was a "vengence bill" and pointng out that we are disproportionately imprisoning AAs.)
The upshot of all that has been a needlessly divisive and polarized racial climate in the primary among people who basically agree with each other on the racial and social issues they are fighting about.
It is also frustrating because there ARE clear differences between Sanders and Clinton about other issues, particularly the structure of overall Wealth and Power, the practicality of the "liberal agenda," single payer health care, etc. Sanders has brought a perspective and set of issues and a message that has been sorely lacking for far too long. And which would benefit all communities and demographic groups. So to see them eclipsed by fights over issues of agreement is....very frustrating to say the least.
Skinner
(63,645 posts)But you have said things that gave me the distinct impression that you might not support the Democratic nominee. Now this is a big website and it is entirely possible that I have missed your post(s) clearly stating your intentions for the general election. If so, it would be really easy for you to set the record straight by simply stating your intention for the general election right here.
As for the discussion of racial issues here on DU, I certainly have quite a lot of frustration myself, although it is different from yours. As a white dude, I look at Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton and I do not perceive there to be a vast chasm separating the two candidates on issues of race. So I get that you and other Sanders supporters are frustrated by the fact that African Americans are (for the most part) not feeling the Bern. What I find so frustrating is that some Sanders supporters seem much more interested in trying to explain to each other why African Americans don't support Sanders, and inevitably too many of those explanations start from the assumption that there must be something wrong with African Americans. It's as if it never crossed some people's minds that there might be legitimate reasons why Hillary Clinton is more appealing to African Americans than Bernie Sanders, or that it might be worth the effort to figure out what those reasons are.
Of course it is totally normal during primary season for supporters of one primary candidate to assume that supporters of some other primary candidate are stupid/evil/clueless/whatever. So that in itself doesn't bother me. But it does bother me greatly that a large proportion of African Americans feel that they have been disrespected on my website. The fact that much of that disrespect does seem to be coming from Sanders supporters would seem to create a situation where you and I have some shared interest: Neither of us wants to be the cause of African Americans feeling disrespected -- in my case because it's my website, and in your case because you want to attract new voters to your candidate. I just wish people would make more of an effort to think about how their posts might look to other people.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Therefore, I'll do the usual and support the nominee when it comes time in November.
Suffice it to say, before then, if Clinton becomes the nominee, my enthusiasm will be lacking (an understatement) and I'll take one of my extended sabbaticals from DU (or limit myself to occasional cute kitten photos in the Lounge or an occasional rant when the GOP gets my goat).
On the original subject, I personally think it is a tragedy that for whatever combination of reasons people feel disrespected because of race. ........It's one thing to beat up on each other over Socialism and Unicorns. But I think much of the friction and estrangement on race and other "social issues" was unnecessary -- the vast majority of Sanders supporters also understand and support the goals of AA's and the same social agenda that Clinton supports.
Skinner
(63,645 posts)First of all, thank you for unequivocal statement of intention regarding the general election. FWIW, I find it highly motivating to know that our GOP opponent is going to be as awful as you stated in your OP. And furthermore I tend to think the specific identity of the Democratic nominee does not make a great deal of difference with regard to actual policy outcomes. So I personally cannot relate to this lack of enthusiasm toward the general election.
It might be worth it to think about whether African Americans feel a lack of enthusiasm toward the general election when they consider possibility of another Republican president.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)No, they aren't. What they're saying is that they believe that we will never solve any issues if we keep sliding ever rightward in general. That, after the right have won everything they want economically with so-called 'Democrats', they will return to start taking away the social advances we have made.
That we have to stop the rightward slide once and for all, and start the country back towards the left on ALL issues. That ALL justice matters, and that we can't just declare that issues important to the poor don't matter as long as we follow a pied piper who claims to care about minorities.
Skinner
(63,645 posts)Handing full control of government over to a bunch of bigots is kind of a big deal for some people.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)It's the same way I feel about handing full control of government over to a bunch of plutocrats and Dominionists.
To me, Hillary and Trump are both losses for America.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Knows how serious it is going to get. The caller was a Trump supporter and was vocal about being a "self-avowed racist." The caller believes bullshit about minorities being less intelligent. He thinks "plantation culture and economics" has big benefits. It was a disgusting and vile call, calmly delivered. And he said he's not alone. He wouldn't even condemn racism of 1930s Nazi Germany.
I felt afraid after hearing this hateful, ignorant punk.
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)disgusted. How can people think that way
What is even more disgusting is that he said he felt empowered to say his truth because of drumpf.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)But yes, the racial bigotry will be more overt in a while.
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)you are right.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)That is a very short sighted idea, and is an old Clinton talking point to get people to stop vetting her.
But the whole point of a primary is to pick the BEST candidate to win against the other side. Sure, they're horrible and that is why we need to put for the most electable candidate.
Now, during the primary, is not the time.
That is why this is most certainly a push from the Hillary campaign to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
Gwhittey
(1,377 posts)"Escalated Racism from the GOP" The GOP have not Escalated Racism at all IMO it is same level as it has always been. It is just Trump is a very smart con man and knew if he just said exactly what GOP wanted to hear and stop with all dog whistle keywords to talk about race he would gather a large base.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)still not the best (IMO) but not entirely inaccurate, eye-ther.
MaggieD
(7,393 posts)I'm white, but I don't see any reason to ignore it when so called liberals and progressives exhibit it.