A Democrat running against Bill Clinton's and Barack Obama's records is lunacy

[Recursion]

I'm reluctantly voting Sanders but this has been bothering me for a while. The unstated (and sometimes stated) premise behind his campaign is that Bill Clinton started the party down the wrong path and we need to correct that. This is a stupid narrative to run on.

Bill Clinton is enormously popular among Democrats and independents. Furthermore, the 1990s were an enormously economically good decade for Americans. Wages rose. Incomes rose. Unemployment fell. Crime didn't just fall but plummeted. DU loves to pretend that the 1990s were an awful time to live in, that Perot's "great sucking sound" actually happened, but Americans actually have functioning memories and they remember those 23 million net new jobs and those higher wages (particularly African Americans, who saw the biggest income increases during those years).

Obama was handed a much shittier deck but arguably did even more with it. The unemployment rate fell by half. Incomes rose. Wages rose (sluggishly). Iraq and Afghanistan wound down significantly. Tens of millions of uninsured Americans got insurance.

Yes, it's possible to come up with rejoinders to many of those but why are you so interested in doing that?

I prefer Sanders as the candidate against most GOP hopefuls, except Trump, who I think only Clinton can beat. I think this for one important reason: Sanders concedes Trump's point that we need to "Make America great again". This is an awful mistake, and we can't win that race (you can't run on reform as the incumbent party). Clinton does not concede Trump's framing and points out that America is already great and doesn't need to be "made great again".

Running against our party's recent white house tenures is an awful idea.

[EffieBlack]

1. Good post - thanks

[elleng]

2. It's true,

'that Bill Clinton started the party down the wrong path,' but I don't think he's running that narrative which, as you suggest, is a bad idea.

I'm staying away from this argument; surely don't want to argue with you, Rec.

[TDale313]

3. The party and its leaders aren't beyond criticism.

But here's the truth: we've allowed Republicans to set the terms of the debate for decades- to set the narrative and define what's possible and where the center is. Yeah, we need to start pulling the party back to the left. And I'm sick of people acting like that makes us disloyal or not real Dems for saying that. Bernie's right.

[NowSam]

4. Bernie just calls it like he sees it.

and when a real progressive like Bernie speaks up we see just how far to the right the Clintons are.

[Qutzupalotl]

5. Sanders isn't running "against" Obama or Bill Clinton; he just wants to go farther

than they did in improving things for the middle class. He criticizes some policies, true; but they largely all agree on major goals. Sanders voted for Obamacare, for instance, although he prefers single payer. He campaigned for Obama and vice versa.

[TDale313]

6. Well put. n/t

[jeff47]

7. No, Sanders is saying we can do more than they did.

That is not against them any more than you are against someone when you sit on their shoulders.

[dirtydickcheney]

8. Glass-Steagall Repeal, NAFTA, Telecommunications Act, Commodities Futures Modernization Act

Those are all things Bill Clinton could have stomped out but the went thru during his presidency.

Hell, it's safe to say he even PUSHED for all of them

Without NAFTA I'm pretty comfortable saying the middle-class would have a bigger slice of the pie here in the USA.

Without Glass-Steagall repeal, I'm CERTAIN that the Crash of 2008 and subsequent bailout wouldn't have happened.
Millions of lives would be better if that legislation hadn't been repealed.

I don't get excited to say "Oh , Bill Clinton - he governed like a Republican, but as long as he says he's a Democrat, that's great!!"

Look at policy, not what party someone is affixed to.

[Recursion]

9. Elizabeth Warren disagrees with you on Glass-Steagall

Without Glass-Steagall repeal, I'm CERTAIN that the Crash of 2008 and subsequent bailout wouldn't have happened.

Elizabeth Warren says having Glass-Steagall wouldn't have prevented the 2008 crash. What do you know that she doesn't?

Without NAFTA I'm pretty comfortable saying the middle-class would have a bigger slice of the pie here in the USA.

Then why did the middle class incomes go up after it passed? Why were 23 million net jobs with higher median wages created after it passed?

[jfern]

17. With Warren's 21st century Glass Steagall Act it wouldn't have happened

Bernie obviously supports that, and Hillary opposes it.

[Recursion]

22. Well, again, Warren doesn't agree with you

She's said in as many words it wouldn't stop a 2008-style collapse; that's not what it's for.

[Gwhittey]

35. You are right

It would not stop a crash. But it would stop that the banks from using depositors funds for high risk investments. But if you like banks gambling with your deposits then ok it was no big deal Clinton got rid of it.

[Recursion]

37. Almost. It stops them from using their own capital

FDIC already limits what they can do with depositors' funds (which, in a fractional reserve system, essentially disappear from the economy anyways). Glass Steagall forbade them from operating proprietary desks with their own capital.

[lunamagica]

10. You are correct. President Clinton left office with a very high approval rating. The consensus back

then was that had he been allowed to run again, he would have won in a landslide.

Bill Clinton was an extremely popular president.

[Art_from_Ark]

20. Clinton left with a 53% "fatigue" rating by the public

"President Clinton appears to have worn out his welcome with many Americans. More than half of those surveyed (53 percent) said they are "just plain tired" of Clinton, a view expressed by many political independents and moderates, two swing groups that will be crucial in determining the outcome of next year's election."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/poll090899.htm

[lunamagica]

24. WRONG. He left office with the highest approval of any modern president.

You sound like a Republican

====================

Bill Clinton #12

Approval rating when he left office: 64%
Percentage point difference between beginning and end of term(s): +10
Average approval rating: 54%

Bill Clinton came into his presidency with a 54 percent approval rating, making him the fourth president on record to leave office with a higher approval rating than when he entered. Despite having nearly been impeached, Clinton likely left office more popular than we he came in because he oversaw the longest period of peacetime economic expansion in U.S. history.

http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/stories/2973/ranked-presidential-approval-ratings-first-worst#2-bill-clinton


--------------------

If I asked you to name the modern era US president that had the highest approval rating when they left the White House, who would you guess?

Ronald Reagan? John F. Kennedy? Bill Clinton?

The answer - Bill Clinton.

When Bill Clinton finished his second term and left the White House in 2001, he had an approval rating of 66%. This is an unbelievable number, especially given how polarized the country is just ten years later.

http://www.davemanuel.com/which-modera-era-president-left-office-with-the-highest-approval-rating-101/

[Art_from_Ark]

28. By the end of his second term, people were getting tired of Clinton

and some of that carried over to Al Gore, and is one reason, I suspect, why Gore was not so eager to solicit Clinton's help during the 2000 campaign.


Clinton Fatigue Undermines Gore Poll Standing

http://www.people-press.org/1999/04/17/clinton-fatigue-undermines-gore-poll-standing/

Will Gore fall victim to Clinton fatigue?

http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/05/27/president.2000/schneider.clinton/

Clinton-Weary Public Has Doubts About Gore

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/poll090899.htm

"A February 2000 ABC news poll found that 51 percent were tired of President Clinton, 49 percent thought Mr. Gore too close to him, and 48 percent felt the country needed a new direction."

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=pVc9Q5EZSnoC&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=2000+Clinton+fatigue&source=bl&ots=vs_URwLczL&sig=sYLdCIL9xUGrotlAR0XhWesNdXU&hl=ja&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2udGS1KXLAhXJopQKHbPKByQQ6AEIQjAF#v=onepage&q=2000%20Clinton%20fatigue&f=false

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Are you suggesting that Dubya would have beat Clinton if not for the 22nd Amendment?

Thank you in advance.

[lunamagica]

36. You know well that Gore distanced himself from Pressident Clinton

Last edited Fri Mar 4, 2016, 12:45 AM - Edit history (1)

over the Lewinsky affair...and that t was a FATAL mistake. Had Gore allowed Clinton to campaign for him, he would have won in such a landslide that stealing the election would have been impossible.

But, please proceed with the dissing of president Clinton. It's doing your candidate a world of good...

Please, proceed...

[Art_from_Ark]

46. How is bringing up the fact that Clinton was NOT as popular as you maintain he was

disservicing my candidate? Gore distanced himself from Clinton because of the Clinton fatigue, and maybe other things. Hell, even when the Clintons watched the "vast right-wing conspiracy" steal the election from Al Gore, they later became buddies with the election thieves. And Hillary even went on the Senate floor to shill for their goddamn war.

[lunamagica]

51. It is not a fact. I showed you how popular he was when he left office

And you are doing a disservice to your candidate by dissing democratic presidents (I include Obama here, because many Sanders supporters dis him too). Sander is not running as an independent. he is running for the DEMOCRATIC nomination. The attacks should focus on the opposition, not on our own.

There are millions of democrats who are loyal to our former presidents. Again, attacking them doesn't help your candidate at all

[Paulie]

11. Do people remember 2008 or 1998

The demographics for Sanders voters seem to show the former. But then I see older seeing compromise on the Dem side and zero on the other, dragging the "middle" too far away from dem long term standards. So that motivation works for say GenX. Those older lived the regan years so saw the decades with a smaller slope. Probably too simplistic.

Gore ran away from Bill in 2000. That Bill or Gores fault? Cause/effect.

[Scurrilous]

12. K & R

[AtomicKitten]

13. Bill Clinton greased the skids for the economic collapse with deregulation.

Pres Obama was left to clean up the mess. He has changed the numbers dramatically (unemployment, etc.), but the wealth disparity has never been wider in this country. He took care of the 1% but a great deal of the 99% are still struggling. No amount of loyalty to a political figure will feed their children or pay their rent. People are hurting and it is Bernie that aims to address that.

[YCHDT]

16. Sanders helped with the CFMA vote which had a way bigger impact on the collapse than Steagal

could have ever thought to.

Take away Steagal and keep CFMA and the collapse still happens albeit a couple of years slower

[JaneyVee]

19. Haha! Funny to see progressives just skip right over Bush!

90s were economically great but somehow Obama had to clean up a mess. But theres a mysterious 8 yr gap.

[Katashi_itto]

41. Not to worry, no one mistakes you for a progressive.

[TM99]

48. Just an FYI.

On Thu Mar 3, 2016, 08:22 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Not to worry, no one mistakes you for a progressive.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1407585

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This post seems to exist for no other reason than as a personal insult.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Mar 3, 2016, 08:29 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No one has to be a progressive to post here so it should not be seen as a slur
if a poster points that out to a DU member.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Just stop it. This is not over-the-top.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Yawn
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Katashi_itto]

49. Thanks!

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

14. And that in a nutshell is why Sanders is not leading

Let me be clear that I do respect Sanders but he has to win the primary first. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are still highly respected among Democrats.

[YCHDT]

15. I agree with this OP, Obama is one of the most popular dems among dems in history and

Sanders has been an outspoken critic of him most of the time unfairly and personal.

What did Sanders expect?

His campaign staff is stuck in their own worlds

[Gwhittey]

38. 2008

Hillary was horrid to Obama, so don't try and say this is a thing.

[YCHDT]

61. Sanders said course correction in 2016, not 8 years ago

[JaneyVee]

18. A voice of sanity.

[mmonk]

21. I would run against financial deregulation and the TPP if I were running.

[Doctor_J]

23. So is a democrat running on a platform of more war, privatization of everything, capital punishment

And social security cuts. So?

[mcar]

25. K&R

[whatchamacallit]

26. He's not running against them

Last edited Thu Mar 3, 2016, 11:26 PM - Edit history (1)

He just wants to do some stuff different and better. Why the fuck should maintaining a popular politician's legacy, good or bad, be a part of anyone's platform?

[YCHDT]

62. Sanders called for course correction this year

[Tom Rinaldo]

27. It would be, but he's not.

Sanders has always included praise for Obama in his comments. He says he is a progressive. He says he has been a good President. He credits Obama for rescuing our economy when it was on the brink of total collapse. He faults Republicans for opposing Obama at every step.

It is Clinton campaign spin that Sanders is running against Obama because it suits her politically to paint it that way. Having said that yes Hillary has more enthusiastically embraced Obama in an unmitigated way, and that might be either good politics or good policy depending on one's view point. Sanders actively points out his differences with Obama on trade policy among other things while Hillary tries to have it both ways by breaking with Obama on it but trying not to talk about it..

[Cheese Sandwich]

29. "It is Clinton campaign spin that Sanders is running against Obama because it suits her politically"

Well said.

It's pure spin.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. There is a lot of revisionism regarding Bill Clinton's tenure...

We had relative peace and prosperity and economists rate the economic performance during his tenure as one of the best in the post war period.

[Armstead]

31. Clinton removed the Counterbalancing Force of Liberalism

The 90's was a Cocaine Economy. Felt good at the time, but led to devastation that followed.

That helped wreck the economy because it accelerated the GOP/Corporate/Conservative push to deregulate, privatize, drain jobs and the economy....and cement the relationship between Big Money and Big Power.

And it put the foxes in charge of the henhouse. And enabled the merger of Big Banks, and Massive Corporate Monopolies.

It also cemented the belief that the poor and struggling should not have a safety net.

That will continue, unless the Democratic Party reasserts the tradition of Liberalism and Progressive Populism.

If that requires running against the legacy of Bill Clinton, so be it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Well

It also cemented the belief that the poor and struggling should not have a safety net.

"The era of big government is over but we cannot go back to the time when our citizens were left to fend for themselves. We must go forward as one America, one nation working together, to meet the challenges we face together. Self-reliance and teamwork are not opposing virtues -- we must have both."

-Bill Clinton

I don't believe there has been a more brilliant politician at framing than Bill Clinton and distilling policy so that ordinary people can understand it.

[Armstead]

42. I agrewith half of that

"I don't believe there has been a more brilliant politician at framing than Bill Clinton and distilling policy so that ordinary people can understand it."


I agree. But it was the wrong framing for destructive policies.

He convinced me until I started finding out more.

[Jitter65]

32. We have been seeing a lot of lunatics lately. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

39. Obama ran citing a list of Clinton policy he sought to repeal and reverse

No one can win running on 'Everything must remain exactly as it is to honor the last President'. Can't be done.

[PowerToThePeople]

40. Yes, Bill Clinton was a better Republican than Reagan.

He was the one who broke the unions and middle class with NAFTA
He was the one who "reformed" welfare eliminating the safety net for millions of struggling citizens.
He was the one who "deregulated" the banking system, plugging up the leak they had with trickle-down economics.

We should praise his great success!

[obamanut2012]

43. good post n/t

[Ron Green]

44. The "great again" and "already great" are dim-witted talking points

and, while politically useful in a Twentieth Century way, don't elevate the discussion in a way that we need.

The truth is that we as Americans are living an unsustainable lifestyle: ecologically, economically and socially, and to the extent we respond favorably to any politician who tells us this we and our progeny have a chance.

Bernie has brought to the table an important piece of this truth, albeit just a start. Ironically he's being cast in the media as one making promises, while what he's really telling is what we ought to be doing and who ought to be paying.

Pundits love to equate Bernie with Trump however they can, but our survival really depends on our understanding the difference.

[MaggieD]

45. I suppose because he is trying to capitalize on anger

But he forgot that Dem voters aren't really that angry with Dems; they are angry with republicans. Either that, or he totally overestimated the number of people he could persuade to vote in Dem primaries who really haven't been voters in the past.

Kids are impressionable. If college is expensive and they can't get a good job when they graduate it will not be hard to convince them that everything sucks. But it doesn't suck for most people. Bernie thinks it does, but that is not what polls of Dem voters show.

But yeah, really stupid to think you can get the minority vote and attack the first black president. That is what makes me think he is pretty lacking in the presidential material department.

[delrem]

47. Oh quit it with the "I'm reluctantly voting Sanders" crap.

The fake "I'm a Sanders supporter but..." posters wore that scam line out months ago. Nobody believes it. Not "Hillary suppporters" and not "Sanders supporters". So just quit playing that game. Because otherwise your posts aren't lacking in substance. I mean, you do have something to say - in your moderate/centrist way.

[Recursion]

55. And yet I'm voting for Sanders, whether you like it or not (nt)

[delrem]

58. Really, I don't give a shit who you're "voting for".

If you're talking about actual issues of importance who you claim to be voting for should have no bearing on your argument. When you preface your posts with that information as prelude to typing out something that's counter-intuitive it doesn't make your case easier to understand.

Like for example that you're a "Sanders supporter" but you think running against the DLC/Third-Way/New_Democrat Hillary Clinton associated legacy is "lunacy".

I mean, like, yah right....

[Arazi]

50. Sanders has always been extremely deferential to Obama

and frequently praises him during this campaign

It's not true he's running against them. That's a HRC frame that doesn't pass muster upon closer examination

[panader0]

52. Wait, you support Bernie but he's a stupid lunatic?

Okay.

[Recursion]

56. I think his main strategy is ultimately a weak one, and Hillary's is worse

I'm really underwhelmed by our choices this year.

[dana_b]

53. So it's NOT Hillary that Sanders is running against

Bernie is running against her husband's and Obama's legacies, evidently. She just gets to benefit from the things that THEY did - not what she is going to do.

I'm just trying to understand why I should be excited about HER - not Bill and Barack.

Btw - if you haven't noticed in this election cycle, people are tired of the same ol', same ol' establishment way of doing things so trying to run on that - what others who came before you did - will not work.

[scscholar]

54. Great point!

The OP is turning the discussion around to be about exactly what he wants it to be about.

[GreatGazoo]

57. Not running against them at all -- pushing further with the best of the 2

[OZi]

59. I remember the tech bubble happening on Bill Clinton's watch.

I have a hard time giving him credit for it.

With NAFTA and Glass-Steagall, I remember thinking we may not feel the effects from this right away, but this is still a road I don't want to go down.

Why would I want wages to keep up with productivity? Why would I want more new money going to the working class and less going straight to the top? Why should I support more cronyism and corruption? Why should I be shamed for wanting "free stuff" when I see people and industries with ties in Washington getting all of it? Why shouldn't getting money's influence out of politics be the #1 issue regardless of party? Why would I want to vote for continuing to be robbed by the 1%?

Maybe I should just lay down and and be happy with incremental crumbs. The party and I parted ways a long time ago. I've just been waiting around on an evaporating cloud of hope.

[Hekate]

60. Yes it is lunacy, and there are a lot of lunatics maddened by CDS and ODS.

Thank you for your good post.