Uh-oh. It seems Bernie said let Detroit go bankrupt back in 2009 and Hillary nailed him on it.

[ucrdem]

Game over folks. Ain't gonna happen, no way no how. Show's over, thanks for playing!

Clinton, who had not previously spent time discussing Sanders's position on the bailout, hit him on the issue Sunday night. That same dynamic was in place when Clinton landed a hit on Sanders over being the lone Democrat to vote against the Export-Import Bank.

"In January of 2009, President-elect Obama asked everybody in the Congress to vote for the bailout. The money was there and had to be released in order to save the American auto industry and four million jobs and to begin the restructuring," Clinton said. "I voted to save the auto industry. {Sanders} voted against the money that ended up saving the auto industry. I think that is a pretty big difference."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/democratic-debate-flint-michigan-2016-highlights-analysis/

Ouch.

[Electric Monk]

1. FAIL

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1431682

[metroins]

6. What was the name of the bill

It was not just for the Auto bailout....that's a myth.

The two bills that bailed out the auto industry in reality were TARP and EESA.

[jfern]

2. False, Bernie always supported the auto bailout

[ucrdem]

5. Apparently he voted against it.

And Hillary let the cat out of the bag so to speak.

[jfern]

13. That's a big fat lie, he never voted against it

[ucrdem]

15. Here's what he said:

' You know what I said? I said, 'let the billionaires themselves bail out Wall Street.'"

He added: "In terms of the auto bailout, of course, that made sense."

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/articles/2016-03-06/auto-bailout-debate-moment-shows-whats-wrong-with-bernie-sanders

[jfern]

16. How's that contradict what I said?

[ucrdem]

18. More from the link and it isn't pretty:

Sanders' response was that the auto bailout was part of the larger Troubled Asset Relief Program, which he opposed. "If you are talking about the Wall Street bailout, where some of your friends destroyed this economy," he said. "When billionaires on Wall Street destroyed this economy, they went to Congress and they said, 'please, we'll be good boys, bail us out.' You know what I said? I said, 'let the billionaires themselves bail out Wall Street.'"

He added: "In terms of the auto bailout, of course, that made sense."

Put aside what one thinks of the TARP program – Clinton makes the important point that, on a key piece of legislation, which helped save millions of jobs, Sanders voted no. Yes, he supported other bailout bills, but this one was where the rubber was meeting the road. The unhappy fact of politics is that legislation is often imperfect and often has unpalatable provisions. As the Detroit Free Press explains: "In short, a Senator or congressman could not vote to rescue GM and Chrysler without voting to provide the money to keep the nation's largest investment banks from failing."

[jfern]

19. Are you claiming that Senator Stabenow D-MI voted against the auto bailout

because she always voted against TARP?

[ucrdem]

23. Did her vote come up tonight?

Absent that I'm not sure it's germane to the thread . . .

[jfern]

26. She voted the same was as Bernie

So it's damn well relevant.

[kristopher]

57. Who cares if it's relevant; it's embarrassing. So sssssshhh! nt

[Cheese Sandwich]

3. OK it passed, so why did Detroit go bankrupt?

[ucrdem]

8. Different Detroit if you are really asking.

The Detroit Romley was referring to is a metonymy for the auto industry. The Detroit that went belly up was the municipality. I sympathize as my own town did the same but GM and the others didn't go under.

[Cheese Sandwich]

10. But they took a pay cut

[MichMan]

59. Both GM and Chrysler went bankrupt anyway n/t

[metroins]

4. EESA and TARP

Saved the auto industry at the time.

People (not the op) can argue whether they were good or bad; but, Sanders voted Nay on both, and they are the real bills that funded the auto bailout.

Personally, looking at how quickly the economy has overall rebounded from the greatest recession since the depression, I'd say they worked overall.

[ucrdem]

7. Yep. I well remember Bernie and the Pacifica gang crying in their beer about TARP.

At first I bought it but at a certain point i realized they really didn't care whether it was good or bad and just wanted to complain about it. And everything else Barack put is hand to. And the scales fell from my eyes because up to about 2010 I was more or less in agreement with them.

[joshcryer]

28. I think this poster has the most balanced opinion on this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1430808

Basically it's political rhetoric. Both sides are right but both are wrong.

[JDPriestly]

29. But the contracts of the top Wall Street people were held to be sacrosanct and they

got their full pay and bonuses.

The people who worked in the auto industry were not so fortunate as I recall, especially not those on pensions.

Am I wrong about that? It's what I remember. The deal was especially rough for the auto industry new hires.

[dchill]

9. UH OH!

You're a Hillary supporter. Detroit and the auto industry are NOT synonymous, and you're insinuation-quoting Sanders saying something he NEVER said, much less advocated. And worse, your candidate is doing the same. It's shameful.

Here's a nickel. Go get a REAL argument.

[ucrdem]

12. Detroit is a metonymy for the auto industry

and I'm talking about Sanders' 2009 vote against the bailout.

[SunSeeker]

11. There was an audible "Oooooh" in the audience when she landed that hit.

That's when Sanders lost his cool and yelled at Hillary.

[ucrdem]

14. Gotta find that vid . . .

Sic transit gloria Bernie . . .

[SunSeeker]

17. This is the headline at cnn.com right now: "New Clinton attack draws 'ooohs'"

There's a clip of the exchange at this link:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/06/politics/democratic-debate-recap/index.html

Sanders knew he had taken a hit, since he interrupted her to insist (some would say LIE) that it was just a vote against a Wall Street bailout. When she tried to resume speaking, he had the nerve to yell at her to stop interrupting HIM. He really lost his cool. What a rude hypocrite!

[jfern]

20. She lied, he never opposed the auto bailout

[ucrdem]

22. He admitted it.

It was part of the TARP legislation he voted against.

' You know what I said? I said, 'let the billionaires themselves bail out Wall Street.'" He added: "In terms of the auto bailout, of course, that made sense."

[jfern]

25. The TARP bill was just for the financial sector

[Kaleva]

60. The TARP bill included the auto bail out.

[jfern]

62. Nope, the TARP bill included no such thing

[Kaleva]

63. That's why Bernie is getting attacked for the auto bailout

Bernie opposed a bailout for the banks and insurance companies which was the TARP bill so he voted against it. But TARP also included the auto bailout so Bernie is getting slammed for supposedly opposing that altough he most likely would have voted in favor of a separate auto bail out bill.

Edit: It's a little more complicated then what I wrote above but I believe that's the gist of it. There were several more in depth posts made yesterday here about how the auto bailout was linked to TARP.

[SunSeeker]

30. No, HE lied when he interrupted her. She then pointed out TARP included the auto bailout.

Then he basically admitted it did contain a bailout for the auto industry. But he, being the anti-Wall Street purist, voted against it because he wanted Wall Street to suffer, even if it meant the loss of millions of auto jobs and crashing our entire economy. His No vote was reprehensibly irresponsible.

It's just Sanders being Johnny One Note again. All he is about is bashing Wall Street...no matter the consequences or collateral damage.

[JDPriestly]

32. Excuse me, but the American auto industry was failing long before the Wall Street bailout.

And it was not the fault of the auto workers but rather of the management of the American automobile industry who did not move quickly enough to build and sell cars with really low gas mileage like the Prius yet had good designs in other ways.

The bail-out of Detroit should have been done entirely separately from the bail-out of Wall Street. They were very different.

[SunSeeker]

35. Voting No was irresponsible. Sure, the bill was not perfect. But time was of the essence.

Detroit couldn't wait for perfection.

Just like my brother couldn't wait for the perfect single payer. The imperfect ACA nonetheless SAVED HIS LIFE.

[jfern]

34. The TARP was just for the financial sector

A Democratic Senator from Michigan also voted no.

[SunSeeker]

36. No, the bill also included $82 Billion for Detroit.

Sanders basically admitted it at the debate. Watch the video at this link:


http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/06/politics/democratic-debate-recap/index.html

[jfern]

38. You're just making shit up

[SunSeeker]

41. No, I'm not.

The $82 billion that helped finance the bankruptcy of General Motors, Chrysler, their finance subsidiaries -- GMAC and Chrysler Financial -- and a handful of large suppliers were part of a much larger Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) that covered more than $700 billion that went to bailout the largest banks, and AIG, the insurance giant that has issued credit default swaps that came due when the banks could not cover their losses on mortgage-backed securities.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2016/03/06/explaining-hillary-clintons-bernie-sanders-votes-auto-bailout/81419564/

[jfern]

43. But when Bernie voted for TARP, it was just for the financial sector

[SunSeeker]

44. No, the bill included $82B for the auto industry.

In short, a Senator or congressman could not vote to rescue GM and Chrysler without voting to provide the money to keep the nation's largest investment banks from failing.

Sen. Clinton voted yes. Sen. Sanders voted no.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2016/03/06/explaining-hillary-clintons-bernie-sanders-votes-auto-bailout/81419564/

[jfern]

46. No, the October 2008 TARP bill was just for the financial sector

[SunSeeker]

47. Wrong. I gave you links. If you choose to ignore facts, there's nothing to discuss.

[jfern]

50. I choose to ignore lies. It's a fact that the October 2008 TARP bill

that Bernie voted for was only for the financial sector.

[ucrdem]

40. Yes, There's really no plausible deniability on this one. Bernie voted against the bailout money.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2016/03/06/explaining-hillary-clintons-bernie-sanders-votes-auto-bailout/81419564/

[ucrdem]

21. He really goes after her on the uber-idiotic speech transcript thing on the CBS clip.

What a nasty person.

[ucrdem]

27. Oh.. My.. Gosh

It's worse than I could have imagined. Seriously. A meltdown of Chernobyl proportions.

[madfloridian]

24. Not true. You should self delete to be honest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511432565

[ucrdem]

31. I just watched it. Before that I looked into it. It's 100% true and Bernie even admitted it.

It's a perfectly fair point and also an important difference between them. If I wanted to drown the federal govt in a bathtub I'd have voted for this guy:

[Samantha]

33. She carefully crafted her words to be misleading

"Sanders voted against the money that ended up saving the auto industry. I think that is a pretty big difference."

Sanders voted against TARP because he did not think the average American should have to bail out Wall Street. He did support bailing out Detroit.

Here is a link from his website which reflects his reasoning as to who should bail out Wall Street:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2008/10/01/wall-street-bailout

"In the midst of all of this, we have a bailout package which says to the middle class that you are being asked to place at risk $700 billion, which is $2,200 for every man, woman, and child in this country. You're being asked to do that in order to undo the damage caused by this excessive Wall Street greed. In other words, the "Masters of the Universe," those brilliant Wall Street insiders who have made more money than the average American can even dream of, have brought our financial system to the brink of collapse. Now, as the American and world financial systems teeter on the edge of a meltdown, these multimillionaires are demanding that the middle class, which has already suffered under Bush's disastrous economic policies, pick up the pieces that they broke. That is wrong, and that is something that I will not support.

"If we are going to bail out Wall Street, it should be those people who have caused the problem, those people who have benefited from Bush's tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires, those people who have taken advantage of deregulation, those people are the people who should pick up the tab, and not ordinary working people. I introduced an amendment which gave the Senate a very clear choice. We can pay for this bailout of Wall Street by asking people all across this country, small businesses on Main Street, homeowners on Maple Street, elderly couples on Oak Street, college students on Campus Avenue, working families on Sunrise Lane, we can ask them to pay for this bailout. That is one way we can go. Or, we can ask the people who have gained the most from the spasm of greed, the people whose incomes have been soaring under president bush, to pick up the tab. (emphasis added)

"I proposed to raise the tax rate on any individual earning $500,000 a year or more or any family earning $1 million a year or more by 10 percent. That increase in the tax rate, from 35 percent to 45 percent, would raise more than $300 billion in the next five years, almost half the cost of the bailout. If what all the supporters of this legislation say is correct, that the government will get back some of its money when the market calms down and the government sells some of the assets it has purchased, then $300 billion should be sufficient to make sure that 99.7 percent of taxpayers do not have to pay one nickel for this bailout.

Here is a link which supports the fact that both Sanders and Leahy supported bailing out Detroit:

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/83206/leahy-sanders-reluctantly-support-auto-industry-rescue

(Host) Vermont's two U.S. Senators, Patrick Leahy and Bernie Sanders, say they're reluctantly supporting a $15 billion rescue package for the nation's auto industry.

Both senators say that allowing Ford, General Motors or Chrylser to fall into bankruptcy could affect a lot of auto related jobs in Vermont.

* * *

Senator Bernie Sanders voted against the $700 billion bail out of the financial services industry but he says this package is different:

(Sanders) "The problem is if you don't act in the midst of a growing recession what does it mean to create a situation where millions of more people become unemployed and that could spread and I have serious concerns about that I think it would be a terrible idea to add millions more to the unemployment rolls."

Eventually, the money to bail out Detroit was taken from the TARP funds. Loans were negotiated and most of the money was repaid.

And this is why Hillary Clinton chose the words she did so she could assert Sanders did not support bailing out Detroit. He did.

Sam

[ucrdem]

37. She was perfectly accurate. Detroit Free Press:

The $82 billion that helped finance the bankruptcy of General Motors, Chrysler, their finance subsidiaries -- GMAC and Chrysler Financial -- and a handful of large suppliers were part of a much larger Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) that covered more than $700 billion that went to bailout the largest banks, and AIG, the insurance giant that has issued credit default swaps that came due when the banks could not cover their losses on mortgage-backed securities.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2016/03/06/explaining-hillary-clintons-bernie-sanders-votes-auto-bailout/81419564/

And Bernie voted nay.

[Samantha]

42. I said as much in my post, but Bernie voted against TARP but favored bailing out Detroit

To say he did not favor bailing out Detroit is untrue. Read the quoted interview. Both he and Leahy supported bailing out the auto industry because they feared not to bail it out could adversely impact jobs in Vermont.

Hillary deliberately chose her words to mischaracterize the truth of the matter.

Sam

[ucrdem]

45. Looks like he said one thing to the press and did another. Fancy that, a politician *ahem*

And no one would have been the wiser if he hadn't decided to get in Hillary Clinton's face.

[SunSeeker]

48. LOL

[SunSeeker]

39. Wrong. He voted No to $82 Billion going to Detroit.

That is NOT "supporting Detroit."

[Broward]

53. She's intentionally mischaracterizing Bernie's position.

She really is as dishonest and repugnant as they come.

[Samantha]

66. Yes, she is because they want to use as a club in Michigan that Bernie voted against the bailout

Facts do not matter. The interview I quoted were Bernie's words at that time; he and Leahy both wanted to bailout out Detroit. But the truth of the matter will not sway any Michigan voters, but misrepresenting the truth just might.

Sam

[dana_b]

67. yes she is

and I don't think she gives a damn about the people of Michigan and Flint. If she did, she'd tell the truth.

[DLnyc]

49. I think you should edit your title

I feel that it is extremely misleading, bordering on slanderous, to have a title that says that Bernie said something when inside we find out it's just your interpretation of a vote on a complicated bill that you think means what you say he said.

You said "It seems Bernie said let Detroit go bankrupt . . ."

Unless you have evidence that he actually said that, I would say that you need to change your title.

Or, alternatively, take responsibility for the low, and steadily falling, opinion that people have of Hillary's tactics, and those of her supporters.

[ucrdem]

51. In 2009 Sanders voted against the $82 billion auto industry bailout bill endorsed by Barack Obama.

Those are the facts as supplied by the Detroit Free Press:

The $82 billion that helped finance the bankruptcy of General Motors, Chrysler, their finance subsidiaries -- GMAC and Chrysler Financial -- and a handful of large suppliers were part of a much larger Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) that covered more than $700 billion that went to bailout the largest banks, and AIG, the insurance giant that has issued credit default swaps that came due when the banks could not cover their losses on mortgage-backed securities. . . .


Sen. Clinton voted yes. Sen. Sanders voted no.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2016/03/06/explaining-hillary-clintons-bernie-sanders-votes-auto-bailout/81419564/

As for the subject line, it isn't in quotation marks, so there's no suggestion of direct quotation, and if there is anyone on the planet who doesn't instantly recognize the source of that famous phrase, here it is again:

[DLnyc]

68. Actually, even without quotes, it is precisely a suggestion that he said that.

It is easy for someone to read that headline and think, precisely by suggestion, that Bernie actually said that. When, in fact, his whole career has been focused on supporting workers and American workers in particular.

Do you like it when people put words in your mouth that are the opposite of what you actually think? Do you like people using underhanded tactics against you? If not, then maybe you can appreciate that other people don't appreciate your tactics when used against them.

Suppose I were to start a thread titled "ucrdem says he wants Donald Trump for president!" Certainly I could argue, as you do, that, since there are no quotation marks, I haven't actually put words in your mouth. And certainly I could make a convoluted argument that what you are doing means you think that. But, of course, you didn't actually say that at all. Would that annoy you at all? Would you feel that you were being misrepresented? Would it bother you that a lot of people might read the title and, never actually reading the post, just decide to write you off for good, and maybe write off DU as well?

Perhaps you ought to have a nice heart-to-heart talk with that face you see in the mirror sometimes.

[madfloridian]

52. .....

I am seething over how she did this. It's almost on par with the racist stuff against Bernie she's promoted.

[riversedge]

56. Your comment is over the top and you know it.

[NCTraveler]

54. +1 nt

[SidDithers]

55. DU rec...nt

Sid

[Lucinda]

58. KNR

Thank you for the info!

[Cobalt Violet]

61. wow some people are so gullible

[oasis]

64. Bernie's difficulty in mounting a defense against Hillary's claim, was costly.

He lost his cool, big time.

[islandmkl]

65. to paraphrase an old line attributed to Goebbels, but not actually proven to be his:

"If you tell a lie often enough, you yourself will come to believe it."

good luck with your illusions of your 'truth'...the light of facts will overcome the darkness of your lies...

[Dem2]

69. I don't care for this "gotcha" crap

Nothing is ever as clear-cut as the proponents of an issue say it is.

[vintx]

70. Lies lies lies

Just like your candidate