Did I just watch Clinton hesitate on a woman's right to choose?

[Barack_America]

And to wonk out on abortion rights, rather than unequivocally supporting abortion rights, as Bernie Sanders did?

[MaggieD]

1. No.

[Barack_America]

3. Oh really. Which candidate would be "fine" with a late-term abortion ban?

Not mine.

[MaggieD]

7. 80% of the public is against 3rd trimester abortion

Including most women. http://www.gallup.com/poll/160058/majority-americans-support-roe-wade-decision.aspx

You have to face the facts - most of us are NOT diehard extremists like Bernie and his fans. He is simply out of step with most Americans.

[Barack_America]

12. Keeping the government out of abortion is an EXTREMIST view?

Holy hell.

I don't care if people are against it. I don't like it. And as a physician, I challenged myself to scrub in on one, so I have witnessed the entire process. But I would never, NEVER suggest that the decision belongs to anyone other than a woman and her doctor.

I simply cannot believe that there is even hesitation from a democratic candidate on this topic.

[MaggieD]

14. Oh I call BS on this

She is as pro-choice as can be. I repeat - 80% of the public is against third trimester abortion including most women. And Hillary is still saying the health of the woman must be paramount. Even in the third trimester.

I can't believe you don't know that most Dems agree with her on this. Wholeheartedly.

[Barack_America]

15. If she believed in legislating choice. She is NOT as pro-choice as she could be.

EOM.

[MaggieD]

16. Sure, because Planned Parenthood and NARAL always...

Endorse presidential candidates that will restrict a woman's reproductive choices. Seriously, do you really think you can sell this complete nonsense?

Honestly, the desperation is more apparent every day.

[Barack_America]

18. I am questioning their endorsement, yes.

I didn't know there was such a big difference between Sanders and Clinton on choice.

[MaggieD]

20. Go right ahead

I'm questioning you. You can't possibly believe what you posted unless you're completely poltically uninformed.

[Barack_America]

24. As a physician, I most certainly will.

My apologies for having given your candidate the benefit of the doubt on one issue.

[Raster]

35. You are arguing with a die-hard Hillary "fan," and yes, there is....

...a difference between the two candidates when it comes to choice.

One of my personal heroes was George Tiller. I am a 59-year old Gay man, and supposedly would have no dog in this fight, however...

As you are probably well aware, third-trimester abortions are almost always a medical necessity. No one in their right mind believes that ANYONE would want or perform a third trimester abortion unless absolutely necessary.

Bless Dr. Tiller for having the courage to be there for women when no one else would be.

And you are MOST CORRECT, this is an issue between a woman and her doctor. PERIOD.

And yes, Hillary Clinton has signaled that she "might be willing to compromise."

[Cavallo]

264. +10000

Abortion support was the only thing I could find consistently liberal about Hillary.

Now I see even that is wrong.

I agree that 3rd trimester abortions need to stay legal. They are a necessity to save women's lives and they can also be when a woman finds out that the fetus she is carrying may have serious issues, among many other circumstances. I support a woman's right to choose.

[eridani]

294. Hillary Clinton: I Could Compromise on Abortion If It Included Exceptions For Mother's Health

There is no reason for a pro-choice politician to EVER support a constitutional amendment restricting abortion.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/09/29/hillary_clinton_i_could_compromise_on_abortion_if_it_included_exceptions_for_mothers_health.html

Again, I am where I have been, which is that if there's a way to structure some kind of constitutional restriction that take into account the life of the mother and her health, then I'm open to that. But I have yet to see the Republicans willing to actually do that, and that would be an area, where if they included health, you could see constitutional action.

[notadmblnd]

54. It doesn't matter who agrees, people/government need to keep their noses out of other womens uteri

It is none of my business why a woman might choose to terminate at any point in the process. If you are against it, don't have one. If 80% of other women are against it, they don't don't have to choose one either.

But I'll be damned if people like you should be able to make that choice for me or any other woman.

[Cavallo]

265. +10000

And I am really not understanding what kind of board this is. I guess I take liberal issues for granted that Democratic sites would be into them. I see I am severely wrong by reading many of the posts on this site. On another thread I was getting told it wasn't okay for women to have children out of wedlock or children from different men. I was appalled. But then I am a liberal, and a Democrat, not just a Democrat.

[noiretextatique]

287. You will find some appalling views here

Like this anti-choice female. Not everyone here is liberal. Racists, sexists....you name it. All here in our big tent.

[Cavallo]

289. Thank you. I read the whole thread now and see that was not normal.

I have much more faith in this site now.

[noiretextatique]

291. Good, but be prepared to be appalled again eom

[notadmblnd]

303. It's an election year and it's nuts

But yeah- sometimes it's hard to believe that one is a what is supposed to be a democratic site.

[Bernblu]

114. So, her support for abortion depends on the polls?

If 80% of the public was against abortion in the first and second trimester she would be against abortion if the health of the mother was not at stake.

[beam me up scottie]

116. Well her support for marriage equality did so why not?

What other civil rights should be given by the majority to award or deny as they see fit?

[MaggieD]

142. Bernie was against marriage equality

Let's top pretending. Shall we?

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4550754/sanders-opposed-federal-marriage-equality-2006

[beam me up scottie]

164. He never opposed marriage equality, he said it was too soon for legislation in Vermont.

Let's not pretend you can make up your own facts.

[Cavallo]

268. That's what I'm gathering about her whole career.

[thesquanderer]

134. No, it sounds like she is not as pro-choice as can be.

She may indeed be sufficiently pro-choice for most women, enough for PP, enough for 80% of the population who agree with the limits you discuss. But that's not "as pro-choice as can be"... that would be Bernie. Maybe you feel that he's too extreme on the issue, that it makes him less electable (as you basically say in your post #39), that he is out of the mainstream here, fine. I'm not saying there's Hillary's position is bad. But by your own admission, their positions here are not the same, and he is more "pro choice" than she is, even if you find him to be excessively so.

[beam me up scottie]

136. Well said! It's not even up for debate, her own words prove she's not 100% pro-choice.

[TexasBushwhacker]

143. There was a time when 80% of some parts of the country

were okay with slavery. It was still wrong.

Less than 2% of all abortions in the US happen in the third trimester. My guess is that the majority of those are because the mother's health is an issue or the fetus has some profound defect. But regardless of the reason, it is the woman's decision to make, not the state's. PERIOD.

[ljm2002]

165. My question is quite simple:

Why would anyone on DU be arguing for further abortion restrictions?

This was all sorted out years ago. Why would Clinton signal a willingness to revisit this issue in order to create further restrictions than we already have? This mystifies me.

[morningfog]

197. Because they are followers of a flawed leader,

incapable of admitting their idol is imperfect. And/or they like to disrupt the board.

[Barack_America]

218. Because it's what she believes. And there was no one to the Left of her...

...on that stage to force her to self-correct.

[noiretextatique]

256. It's called triangulation

Adopting a rw position that fucks over a certain group in a vain attempt to out-republican the republicans. Also to score future poltical favors by throwing them a bone. It worked for crime! Oh...and fuck the people who you fuck over. You can always apologize 20 years from now.

[morningfog]

169. The same reasons you support abortion at 27 weeks should carry to 32.

And beyond.

Legal abortion, without restriction, beyond 26 or 32 weeks would not significantly increase the number occurring in later term.

But there are reasons why it should be legal at that point and the reasons are the same as in the earlier trimesters. No woman -- ever -- under any circumstance should forced to make a choice between an illegal abortion and carrying an undesired pregnancy to term.

If you think women are lining up to have late terms abortions and the law is preventing it, you expose your ignorance on the subject.

[beam me up scottie]

170. Why should I have to carry a severely deformed fetus to term?

Because you have issues with it?

Not your body, not your choice.

[MaggieD]

174. You don't

As all actual Dems and Clinton have made clear. How irresponsible are you only to figure that out at 32 weeks? Bernie hasn't done shit to ensure pre natal care. Hillary has. Bernie does not give a rat's ass if women are educated about their rights and these issues.

Here is a clue - you will NEVER convince women that PP and NARAL are backing the wrong candidate. They don't give a shit what women in their couture gowns think about this issue. Go to your balls and pretend you give a shit. Whatever.

[beam me up scottie]

184. Are you serious? Women don't have third trimester abortions because they're irresponsible.

I can't believe I'm reading this right wing garbage on DU.

I'm not even going to bother explaining this, the information is out there if you want to learn. You can start with feminist websites like this one:

Late Abortions: Facts, Stories, and Ways to Help[/div

[MaggieD]

187. Your link proves my point and Clinton's point

How silly for you to include a link that makes the point of the vast majority of liberals and disproves the OP you are ostensibly
defending.

The problem is you couture gown liberals are left out in the cold trying to pretend that Bernie gives a shit about this issue AT AL

[beam me up scottie]

192. The link cites stories from women who didn't find out about their fetuses until late into their 2nd

You didn't even bother to read their heartbreaking stories about why they had late term abortions.

How cruel and judgemental to call them irresponsible.

[MaggieD]

204. The link cites no such thing

What is it with his supporters that you are so confident no one will look at actual facts?

[beam me up scottie]

210. The TITLE of the article is "Late Abortions: Facts, STORIES, and Ways to Help"

A 2006 amicus brief prepared for Gonzales v. Planned Parenthood Federation of America, a case focused on the availability of second trimester abortions, contains a number of stories of women who had to seek out later-term abortions, such as that of Carrie, a 40-year-old woman from the Southwest
who was happily married for nine years when she became pregnant. She described the timing of her genetic testing and decision to end her pregnancy:

On November 11, 2005, I elected to have [a] CVS test. . . . Then, the test results came in. . . . We knew chromosome 14 was incompatible with life, and chromosome 22 could mean Cat Eye Syndrome. Both my
husband and I wanted the baby very much, and neither one of us was willing to terminate the pregnancy on a “maybe.” . . .

I had the amnio on 12/26/05, and the results came in on Jan. 13, 2006. It confirmed without doubt – she had Cat Eye Syndrome tetrasomy in every cell of her body. The last 3 sonograms showed . . . our baby’s kidneys were beginning to malfunction. . . .We made this decision
because we loved our daughter so much. We didn’t want her to suffer the definite and the untold problems she was sure to endure, if she even made it. We made the best decision we could with the information we had. We fought for her. We wanted her. But we didn’t want to condem[n] her to [a] life of agony.

Or that of Cara, a married Catholic woman with an almost-three-year-old son, who had “always dreamed of having a big family.” She described the time it took to obtain information needed about her pregnancy:

I was about 17 weeks pregnant at the time. . . .[T]hey scheduled us for our Level II ultrasound a few weeks early so they could look in more detail at the baby. . . . A few days [after the ultrasound], we received the news that would change our lives forever. Our son was infected with CMV (cytomegalovirus). This was the worst possible scenario (of the possibilities we were given). . . . Although I have always been pro-choice, I had winced at the thought of late-term abortions or “partial birth” abortions, thinking that it was just inhumane or irresponsible. Now I know differently. In my case, we were not able to confirm our diagnosis until 19 or 20 weeks gestation. I terminated at 22 weeks. . . . I was completely heartbroken. . . .

Numerous other such stories are contained in this brief.

Authors on RH Reality Check, such as Lynda Waddington and Susan Ito, have shared their stories about late-term abortion and the excruciatingly difficult decisions they had to make.

- See more at: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2009/06/02/lateterm-abortions-facts-stories-and-ways-help/#sthash.c3vCndKr.dpuf

[MaggieD]

214. None of your quotes are about 3rd trimester

Much as you might want to pretend so, you are still just pretending. I guess his supporters gotta do what they gotta do to pretend. The thing is you think you are fooling people but you're not.

[beam me up scottie]

217. "My Third-Trimester Abortion" by Kate C.:

My Third-Trimester Abortion

People say this is the hardest decision a woman can make, but for me it was the clearest, easiest decision in a very hard, sad situation. It was the decision I could live with. I could live with ending my daughter’s life before it began. I could not live with bringing her into the world to suffer.

...

On Monday, we boarded our flight with a story about being only five months pregnant with twins. Airlines don’t let eight-month pregnant women fly.

We got the money from my parents’ retirement fund, which could afford the hit.

http://endingawantedpregnancy.com/dandy-walker-third-trimester-abortion/

[Lazy Daisy]

310. That's pretty par for the course

This poster frequently replies much too soon to have read the link/links that back up an argument, and barely reads the response itself with the exception to pick out a couple words to get offended by.

The sheer ignorance of facts and reality escape her. Just because 80% of women think they should be able to officiate over another woman's body doesn't make it right. To say a woman is irresponsible if she doesn't decide in the first or second trimester is troublesome. So we are all judge and jury here? We all walk our own paths, no one knows what brings a person to where they are and judging them with out knowing is cruel.

All abortion at any time should be kept as a choice a woman makes.

[beam me up scottie]

311. It's victim blaming, those women wanted their babies.

They didn't carry them for months and suddenly change their minds, to compound their grief by calling them irresponsible is sickening and something you'd expect to see on a pro-life right wing website.

[kstewart33]

199. Bernie seems way too grumpy to be for women's rights.

He has this 'get off my lawn!' demeanor that seems to be worsening by the day.

[beam me up scottie]

203. He's been fighting for my rights for decades, where have you been?

Bernie Sanders On Women's Rights / Abortion

[kstewart33]

208. Yes, but he's sooooooo grumpy.

Not the kind of guy you'd like to play a game of Hearts with.

[beam me up scottie]

211. I want a fighter who gets pissed at injustices, not one who smiles while they compromise.

[kstewart33]

213. What's that saying? Oh, I've got it.

A smile can move mountains.

[beam me up scottie]

219. And what does it mean when it's accompanied by opposition to civil rights?

Those mountains that were moved are people's rights.

[hobbit709]

244. Or this one which is more like her smile.

Last edited Tue Mar 8, 2016, 03:37 AM - Edit history (1)

There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill

[Cavallo]

280. That nails it. Did you write it? I'm copying it down.

[beam me up scottie]

283. John Lennon, from Working Class Hero:

[Cavallo]

286. Wow, I thought it was written right now. What a truth to that lasts the decades!

[HERVEPA]

193. "How irresponsible are you only to figure that out at 32 weeks?" You are clueless, truly clueless.

[MaggieD]

201. Really? How so?

Not even women as a whole support abortion at 32 weeks unless the life of the woman is at stake. Extremism is his supporters shtick. But the country will not go along with that nuttiness. We do not murder babies in abortion clinics, despite what the right wing nuts want to make the country believe.

[noiretextatique]

254. There is nothing extreme about being pro-choice

Last edited Tue Mar 8, 2016, 04:06 AM - Edit history (1)

Either you are or you aren't, and you aren't.

[beam me up scottie]

220. Yes she is, the third trimester begins at 28 weeks.

And she obviously has no clue about fetal abnormalities that are discovered during or after the second trimester.

[HERVEPA]

224. Yup. All her posts are pretty clueless. As a volunteer PP escort for 25 years, I'm pretty well

versed on the subject.

[beam me up scottie]

226. Thank you for your support, it means a lot.

Some people can't even be bothered to learn the facts while others are out there on the front lines.

[Bettie]

304. And she clearly

has no idea about the agony the women in that situation go through in making a decision that late in what is usually a very much wanted pregnancy.

I know women who have had to make such decisions and adding roadblocks to their paths is not just wrong, it is needlessly cruel as well.

[beam me up scottie]

308. My best friend's sister had to borrow money and a car.

She and her husband had to drive 6 hours to get to a clinic in another state. It was heartbreaking enough without the added stress of traveling and trying to scrape up enough money to pay for the procedure and a hotel room. The war on women is very real.

[Bettie]

309. It is very real

And this is a dark corner of it that few will ever really understand.

It is easy to vilify women who terminate a pregnancy so late, if you have never seen a woman agonizing over what to do when given a terrible diagnosis.

I know people who have gone on with doomed pregnancies and people who have ended them.

In the end, the result is the same: a devastated family, mourning a life that never had a chance.

So sorry for your friend's loss.

[morningfog]

227. ^^^THE AIR IN GDP WILL BE A LITTLE CLEARER UNTIL JUNE^^^

[beam me up scottie]

229. Nice.

[HERVEPA]

230. :-) Wow. Managed to get six!

[elljay]

232. This woman

Is convinced that they backed the wrong candidate. I am a monthly PP contributor and, much as I like the daughter of former Democratic politician Ann Richards, her endorsement of her mom's establishment crony is not persuasive. You speak only for yourself- other women are perfectly capable of their own thinking.

[JonLeibowitz]

238. This post survived a jury 3-4. What a shame, it should have been a 7-0 hide.

Disgusting tripe.

[noiretextatique]

252. I was a juror

Voted to hide. Clearly a personal attack.

[JonLeibowitz]

257. Care to post the juror message for transparency?

Really can't understand the votes of the 4 people who voted to leave it.

[noiretextatique]

259. Sure...brb I am on my phone. Will post from laptop eim.

[noiretextatique]

261. Couture gowns?

you are the one arguing to restrict women's rights. And I am sure there are some Bernie supporters at PP and NARAL. Maybe they have couture gowns too?

[beam me up scottie]

267. I once owned three expensive gowns in a previous life.

I married well and fell from grace after the divorce, I was living out of my car a year later.

But I'm wealthy, white and privileged, now - you betcha!

[noiretextatique]

271. I have never owned a gown

Never wanted one. But it is really crazy to accuse random internet posters of being ultra privileged because who they support. I know it was/is a meme, but good lord....that is just nuts. I know...consider the source

[Bettie]

300. We lost our first child at birth

Last edited Tue Mar 8, 2016, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

as a result of that, over the years, I've met many, many people who have experienced pregnancy and neonatal losses.

A segment of them terminated pregnancies for a variety of reasons.

Of that segment, most terminated after they were able to get testing, before the third trimester (though, often in the latter part of the second), because they had the information to make the decision.

A few either didn't have that information soon enough or were getting other opinions, hoping for a miracle that never came.

I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say NO ONE has an abortion at 32 weeks (or later) because of convenience. But, there are a variety of reasons that this procedure needs to be legal without a bunch of hoops for people to jump through.

It isn't about being "irresponsible". Sometimes it is about hope, sometimes it is about not having a definitive answer.

You show a shocking lack of empathy.

I do believe that support for abortion rights should be absolute, not something to triangulate and use as a bargaining chip.

[Cavallo]

270. +10000

I can't believe this site has people you have to say that too.

If they are the norm and not you, I really think I will be leaving here. I am a liberal. I do not understand it here.

[noiretextatique]

273. No, not at all the norm

And she got the smackdown she deserved.

[Cavallo]

274. Thank you. I'm trying to grasp what kind of site this is.

[beam me up scottie]

275. I can assure you they are not the norm, DU is usually fiercely pro-choice.

If those posts had been made in another forum at another time dozens of people would have called them out.

Welcome to DU and what's called "silly season", except it's not so silly right now.

[Cavallo]

277. You are right, I've read further down on this thread now.

Thank you! And Hi!

[noiretextatique]

279. Welcome, Cavallo

That poster is on a hiatus for a while because of all the drivel she posted

[Cavallo]

281. Cool. Thank you! And Hi!

[Lazy Daisy]

312. DU is usually fiercely a lot of things

Until this campaign and Hillary. Now the need to protect and align with Hillary is more important than the issues once held firm.
Too many in the party are shifting to the right just to CYA for The Anointed One. Sad.

[beam me up scottie]

313. Exactly. Since when us waffling on abortion rights a good thing?

Jesus Christ if Bernie had done that we'd never hear the end of it. But Hillary gets a pass?

[jeff47]

175. Hey look, you're wrong again!

You are correct - only 2% of abortions happen in the last trimester. Due to the life of the woman being at stake.

Nope!

"Last Trimester" abortions also happen in cases of severe fetal abnormalities.

But hey, might as well make that woman carry a fetus with no brain to term. Like you insist here:

No rational person supports that unless the pregnant woman's life is at stake.

[Barack_America]

180. She has clearly never watched a newborn struggle to survive.

You want to talk about a sight that will tear your soul apart.

How anyone could possibly resign a family to that...

[TexasBushwhacker]

179. I don't think I have any business telling a woman

she CANNOT have an abortion when she finds out late in her pregnancy that her fetus has spina bifida or microcephaly or harlequin ichthyosis or .....

In a perfect world all women who have access to good prenatal care, including genetic testing, throughout their pregnancy. But the world isn't perfect, and the women who are most affected by abortion restrictions (and lack of good prenatal care) are poor women. A rich woman will always be able to get a safe abortion even if they have to travel to get it.

If thinking that the decision to have an abortion is only the business of the woman and her doctor makes me an extremist, so be it.

[Warren DeMontague]

147. If Bernie Sanders made an exactly identical statement you guys would completely LOSE YOUR SHIT

admit it.

[beam me up scottie]

166. #whatwouldtheydoifberniesaidthat

[Hydra]

239. +100,000,000

It's only ok if the chosen one does it.

[basselope]

159. So if 80% of the public was for slavery, would that make it okay?????

You gotta love when people jump to PUBLIC support for denying people rights.

Either you are fully pro-choice or not.

Clinton said tonight she is not.

[Cavallo]

260. +10000

[dogman]

13. Poll tested!

Makes it so. Pro-limited choice

[shawn703]

30. And a majority of Americans are on the wrong side of history on this issue

Just like a majority were on the wrong side of history when it came to the beginnings of other civil rights issues.

The only person who should ever have a say in whether an abortion at any given point during a pregnancy should be allowed is the woman who needs to make the decision. End of discussion.

You can either have a true leader like Sanders who does what's right, or someone like Clinton who does what's popular, no matter how disgustingly wrong it is.

[Logical]

32. LOL, you nailed it. Hillary makes decisions on polling numbers. Wow, you get it yet? nt

[beam me up scottie]

34. Being 100% pro-choice makes us "diehard extremists" and "out of step"?

Well if trusting women and doctors makes me an extremist in your eyes then I'll wear that label like a badge of honour, just like I do when it comes from right wing anti-choice zealots.

[MaggieD]

39. You're about to get a lesson in purity

It means you can't get elected, so 100% of your candidates proposals never see the light of day instead of only 50% of them not seeing the light of day like the elected candidates.

Of course if you have a bunch of designer gowns in your closet who gives a fuck, right? Those folks can afford to be high minded in their purity. No worries - the rest of us (the majority of Dems) will focus on actual progress.

[beam me up scottie]

43. Actual progress like further restrictions on abortion?

If that's what you call progress one of us isn't a liberal.

And it's not me.

[MaggieD]

49. You don't understand current abortion law, but

Why would you? You live a privileged life by all accounts. Right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm thinking about your previous posts.

[beam me up scottie]

52. I almost died from a botched abortion, why don't you tell me more about my "privileged life"?

I posted my story many times here, are those the "previous posts" you're referring to?

Do go on.

That is if you want to keep displaying your own privilege.

[MaggieD]

59. What's that got to do with anything?

You're priveleged and can afford to be pure, right?

No offense but this is my big beef with Bernie supporters. None of you will suffer if Trump gets elected. None of you will suffer if Bernie accomplishes nothing as he has done for 30 years now.

[beam me up scottie]

62. How am I privileged? How was I privileged when I almost died from an abortion?

You brought up my life and now you're claiming it has nothing to do with this issue?

You don't know a damned thing about me but you still have the nerve to pass judgement on me and my life just because I support Bernie.

That tells me everthing I need to know about just how privileged you are.

[Duval]

139. Doubt if you'll get an answer, beam me up scottie.

That person is not likely to have a balanced discussion on this issue. Perhaps he/she lacks empathy anyway.

[beam me up scottie]

160. She must be if she thinks abortion rights should be decided by the majority.

I wonder what other civil rights she's willing to put to a vote?

[noiretextatique]

69. How the hell do you know?

Why do you assume Bernie supporters are privileged, or that Clinton will be better for stuggling people? Both are incorrect assumptions. I was on the jury when someone alerted on your post. I voted to hide because it is clearly a personal attack.

[Kelvin Mace]

81. "You're priveleged and can afford to be pure, right?"

The psych term for this is "projection".

[beam me up scottie]

90. Thank you. No woman is "privileged" when it comes to reproductive rights.

We're all at the mercy of politicians, the courts and domestic terrorists.

[MaggieD]

104. So if that is a priority for you, why choose a man?

That really hasn't exhibited that he gave a shit about it over the years? You really can't deny that, and if you try to PP and NARAL are here to remind you.

Please don't pretend. I go back to my comments about the privileged. They revel in their "couture" gowns and all their riches, and support extremist leftist to the soothe the conscious. They will not suffer when their unicorn accomplishes nothing. Will they?

[beam me up scottie]

112. Because that "man" (oh the horror) has ALWAYS been 100% pro-choice.

If Bernie had come out in favour of a ban on late term abortions we'd never hear the end of it but because Hillary's a woman she gets a pass?

Fuck. That.

Please don't pretend. I go back to my comments about the privileged. They revel in their "couture" gowns and all their riches

You're supporting one of those privileged women who never ever has to worry about her daughter dying from an abortion because rich women don't play by the same rules as the rest of us.

Spare me the lecture, you have no idea what it's like.

[MaggieD]

117. No, 100% is getting off your ass

And he doesn't get off his ass. I can testify to that as an LGBT activist that helped secure marriage rights. You appear to have a VERY low bar if you support him. Bernie specializes in rhetoric without action.

But if you are able to afford "couture" gowns I suppose words are enough. After all, it's the thought that counts if the results have no impact on your actual life. Right?

[beam me up scottie]

122. Lgbt rights? Did you forget Hillary was also adamantly opposed to marriage equality?

Just like her opposition to late term abortions, she has her rights and doesn't care about the people who will suffer because of her ignorance and privilege.

But if you are able to afford "couture" gowns I suppose words are enough. After all, it's the thought that counts if the results have no impact on your actual life. Right?

You're talking about Hillary again, right? She never had to struggle or worry about dying from an unsafe abortion, did she?

[MaggieD]

128. I remember that Bernie was too

See, that's the problem. He can't snow job me like he has you straight folks. I was THERE.

Mr. Champion of LGBT rights sat on his ass. He did not raise money for LGBT rights. He did not advance LGBT rights around the world like she did. He did not get 9 senators to vote against the constitutional amendment to deprive LGBT people of rights like she did. He did NOT do shit.

He sat in VT and said VT was not ready for marriage. That is all he did. I am sorry you don't understand that, but that is reality. That is why the vast majority of LGBT people support Clinton. She was boots on the ground. He was no where to be found.

[beam me up scottie]

133. No, he didn't oppose marriage equality, if you were really there you would know the facts.

And you sure as hell wouldn't be holding up Mrs. "Marriage is a Sacred Bond Between a Man and a Woman" Clinton up as a champion of lgbt rights.

The idea is so absurd it would be laughable if not so divorced from reality.

Hillary Clinton on Gay Marriage 2004:

[MaggieD]

138. He did. You didn't notice because you are straight

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4550754/sanders-opposed-federal-marriage-equality-2006

And LGBT people know this Hillary video is edited bullshit because they were there. I MET Hillary through my work on these issues at about the time this video occurred. I want to give a shout out to Liz Edwards, dog rest her soul, for the same support.

I'm sorry. LGBT people know the real Bernie just like AA know the real Bernie. We have to pay attention to survive. His white privileged supporters did not. Your support, IMO, is based on fiction you were recently sold.

We lived this shit. We lived Bernie not giving a shit about our rights. We lived his mass incarceration votes. His anti immigrant votes. His pro guns in our neighborhood votes.

That is precisely why you can spout on and on (in your couture gowns) and none of the majority will give a shit. Reality trumps unicorn fantasy and limo liberalism every day of the week. And it is why he will lose.

[beam me up scottie]

148. Wrong, I'm from Vermont so I really was there, I don't rely on people who support Hillary for facts.

And LGBT people know this is Hillary video edited bullshit because they were there

Now it's edited, that's what you're going with?



Did you even watch the video?

I believe marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman. I have had occasion in my life to defend marriage, to stand up for marriage, to believe in the hard work and challenge of marriage. So I take umbrage at anyone who might suggest that those of us who worry about amending the Constitution are less committed to the sanctity of marriage, or to the fundamental bedrock principle that it exists between a man and a woman, going back into the midst of history as one of the founding, foundational institutions of history and humanity and civilization, and that its primary, principal role during those millennia has been the raising and socializing of children for the society into which they are to become adults.

Those are her words, no editing required.

I'm sorry. LGBT people know the real Bernie

Obviously you don't or you could post proof he opposed marriage equality and wouldn't be claiming Hillary is a champion of lgbt rights. You don't get to make up your own facts. Find me a quote from Bernie saying marriage is between a man and a woman and we'll talk, until then you've got nothing but your opinion and we all know what opinions are worth.

That is precisely why you can spout on and on (in your couture gowns) and none of the majority will give a shit. Reality trumps unicorn fantasy and limo liberalism every day of the week. And it is why he will lose.

What on earth are you on about now? You sound exaxtly like the right wing with those talking points.

[MaggieD]

150. I don't care where you are from in your "couture" gowns

You do not get it. Reading your posts I begin to see why Vermont has more AA in jail than AA that actually live there. You simply do not get it. And worse yet, you THINK you do. Yet have no idea why Bernie is losing.

It makes me LMAO.

[beam me up scottie]

157. Why are you going on and on about gowns?

What does any of that have to do with abortion, lgbt rights and incarceration rates?

[MaggieD]

171. I find it interesting that Bernie is supported by...

The ultra white privileged that soothes their wealth related guilt by supporting people they know can never win, AND the completely politically naïve that actually believe his extremist proposals will actually see the light of day after 25 years of being rejected (because, you know, magic).

The ultra white privileged wealthy sicken me. They know his proposals will never pass. They know it's all bullshit. They support the fantasy in order to soothe their tortured souls. Those folks in their couture gowns (that some like to brag about on DU) would shit their pants if any of it really came to pass. But they know it won't, so no problem pretending they support it (in their couture gowns). Right, BMUS?

[beam me up scottie]

176. Who the hell is "ultra white privileged" here? I work a blue collar job and drive a 21 year old car.

I almost died from a botched abortion, if I was rich and privileged I would support someone like Hillary.

Not a fighter for the poor and disadvantaged like Bernie.

Who has always supported my right to choose.

[MaggieD]

183. How many couture gowns do you have?

Don't give me this crap about what happened 50 years ago. Especially when you forgot about it that long ago (like Bernie did).

You want to sit there in your privilege and PRETEND that some kind of inner thought on his part counts. It does NOT count. He did not fight for women's rights. He did not fight got LGBT rights. He hasn't done jack for AA rights for 50 fucking years. Nobody gives a shit that he got a $25 fine for protesting 50 years ago.

That shit doesn't help anybody. I personally consider his a total lazy ass liberal. He has not done shit other than complain. Clinton has done shit. And that is why women, AA, and LGBT support her and reject him.

[beam me up scottie]

186. Wtf are you talking about? I don't have any gowns at all.

I have a few skirts and a dress or two left over from when I worked in an office that I saved for weddings and funerals.

My hands are so calloused I had to wear gloves the last time I put on pantyhose.

I drive a 21 year old Saturn. I live in a rented house. I'm still paying off hospital bills from two years ago.

What privilege???

[MaggieD]

189. Sure you do

[beam me up scottie]

195. Will you stop telling me what I have in my closet? Who do you think you are?

I'm getting tired of your bullshit claims.

[MaggieD]

198. Well the feeling is mutual

[beam me up scottie]

200. Except I never made any claims about your life, I don't care what you wear.

You're the one who is passing judgement on women who have had abortions.

[MaggieD]

202. Oh hell yeah you have

I guess you really think people have short memories here.

[beam me up scottie]

206. Where did I say anything about your life? I don't know anything about you.

Not do I care to after reading your posts in this thread.

Blaming women who have late term abortions, calling them irresponsible, sentiments like that about women who need those abortions make me physically ill.

[Bluenorthwest]

306. What's in your closet? Let's ask MaggieD!!! Here is from her very own journal....

"I am not a PoC, but I am a lesbian. I spent my first 20 years in the closet so that I could have a shot at economic equality. And it worked. But when I came out of the closet 15 years ago after I was economically successful...."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/~MaggieD

" I'm a liberal that owns a small business. And I am acquainted with many other liberal small business owners. We don't treat employees or anyone else as described in the OP even though we may make a very good living. And I can promise you that if my taxes go up much more so that the mega corps can continue to pay nothing I won't be the loser in the equation. My employees will because I will go out of business."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7108585

So Mags, she boasts about her own affluence and the closet comes up but in a very different way. Stunningly hypocritical for her to attack anyone on the basis of possessions or affluence when her own posts are full of her claims of business success and power....

[beam me up scottie]

307. Great research as usual, Blue!

Some people just love to throw stones from their glass houses.

[noiretextatique]

241. You really have gone off the deep end

And now you are just making shit up. If we had a,sanw jury system, all of your posts accusing people of being elists and wearing couture gowns would be deleted. All of this to support someone who said she is willing to sell out wimen. Disusgusring

[noiretextatique]

266. You are really out-of-line. I am black

Not rich and I support Bernie. Your idiotic stereotypes are childish and make you sound like a complete nutcase.

[eridani]

295. The one demographic HRC has solidly won in all contests is those earning more than $100K

[merrily]

115. Because a man with a perfect rating from NARAL since 1991 won't do the right thing?

You're wearing out those galloping goal posts. Make up your mind. Is he too extreme on women's reproductive rights, as you posted upthread, or is he likely not to protect them adequately, as your question, "Why choose a man" implies.

[MaggieD]

132. He is as clueless about women's issues as he is about AA issues

I think people to whom these issues matter really see that. You cannot fake it with actual people for whom these issues matter. You can try all day long, but it never resonates. LGBT, women, AA, Latinos (minorities, IOW) have developed very sensitive bullshit detectors over the years.

He's a one issue guy who never really gave a shit about all the other issues that matter to tried and true Dems. He can't fake it, and he will lose as a result. Mark my words.

[merrily]

182. You didn't answer my question. Instead you pulled a lot of nonsense out of your ear.

Pulling stuff out of your ear doesn't make it so or impress anyone. Please don't waste my time or yours with any more posts like that.

[MaggieD]

185. I'm not pulling ANYTHING out of my ear

The reason you guys alert stalk and try to hide me is precisely because I am politically informed and don't cower to the Bernie propaganda. I've been here since 2001 and I will be here long after all the Bernie supporters are long gone. I have been a Dem activist for 38 years. Not going anywhere just because some extremists showed up and tried to take over the party.

[merrily]

190. Your entire Reply 132 to me was pullled out of your ear. So is your Reply 185 to me.

If you're so informed, you could have answered my questions AND backed up your unsupported opinions.

I don't ask you questions to get your unsupported opinions. We all know what they are. Again, please don't waste my time with rants.. If you have something to say that you can support with links or serious info, great. Otherwise, I'm really not interested.

[AtheistCrusader]

118. If you want to talk about privilege, let's talk about a person who can rake in 30 million dollars in

two years just 'speaking' at events.

'cause that's some bona-fide privilege right there.

[MaggieD]

124. And pay for 40% in taxes with no complaints

I can relate to that. I do the same. The extremist nutjobs in this country think you can't be rich and liberal.

But yes, yes you can. In reality YOU CAN TOO. Lots of us actually bust our ass and pay taxes with the betterment of society in mind. Really. Lots of us.

[noiretextatique]

263. Perhaps so...it is certainly bizarre enough

To accuse people you don't know of owning couture gowns, while arguing to restrict women's rights as hell.

[RoccoR5955]

110. Is that today's Camp Weathervane meme?

Bernie supporters are privileged purists?
Give me a freakin' break already!

If Clinton is the nominee, mark my words, we shall suffer under a tRump dictatorship!

[MaggieD]

141. That is how the majority of AA, Latinos and LGBT see him

And for very good reason.

[Bluenorthwest]

181. No, just those who are uptight and to the right. I know one gay woman for Hillary, that's it.

She's my accountant, all of my peers are extremely pro-Bernie. This is particularly true among my transgender friends who are all for Bernie is a big, big way.

It's how it is in all communities, the more conservative right leaning fear based Democrats, many of whom were Reagan voters in the first place dig Hillary.

You should speak for yourself instead of attempting to use various minorities as your hand puppets. It's just crass.

[kstewart33]

194. Geez, you really know how all gay people and transgender people will vote?

'How it is in all communities.' That's impressive. What's your prophetic call for the Michigan community? Give me a percentage given you know so much. And then we'll compare tomorrow!

Or better yet, why have an election? Just call the Michigan SOS office and let them know. Think of all the $$$ we'll save!

[MaggieD]

196. You need to get out more

I've been an activist for 20 years on these issues. I was on the board of national LGBT orgs.

The HRC endorsed her because the vast majority of their donors support her. And for good reason. Your guy was doing nothing and we noticed. LGBT people do NOT like when someone cowered in the corner like Bernie did, and then wants to run on declaring he was your (fake) champion.

[noiretextatique]

246. I am gay, I remember her stance

She changed her mind, by 2010. She was always open to civil unions, but she was fond of saying marriage is between a man and a woman.

[RoccoR5955]

225. Oh, and you know a majority of them I suppose. n/t

[noiretextatique]

253. What about all your couture gowns?

Attacks like these should not be allowed to stand, but since they are allowed these days, ridicule will have to do.

[beam me up scottie]

255. LOL!

These are the same people who are voting for a privileged, extremely wealthy white woman, complain about paying $1.40/wk for family leave under Bernie's proposal and refer to single payer health care as a "unicorn".

But we're the elitists.

[noiretextatique]

258. And purists

Isn't the belief in incrementalism a cornerstone of triangulating centrism? Isn't believing centrism is the only pragmatic approach to governing a purist position? Can you believe a woman is actually calling pro-choice folks "exremists" on a democratic site? It's unbelievable!

[beam me up scottie]

262. Last year at this time DU feminists would have been all OVER someone who said those things.

Now that Hillary is about to be coronated not only does she get a pass on triangulation, her supporters get to spew anti-choice right wing talking points without so much as a "Wait, wut did you just say?"

[noiretextatique]

269. It is truly sickening

Plus the bizarre accusations about ultra white privilege. It is sad that this drivel was allowed to continue. Just sad. What is all the anger about here? Surely, she did not expect a welcoming committee. I've noticed it in others too...an intense rage and bitterness that someone is daring to challenge the inevitable one. Authoritarianism? I think so.

[beam me up scottie]

272. I think so as well, notice all the calls for a purge?

The endless requests for a loyalty pledge and the alerts on people who won't fall in line?

They thought the nomination was going to be handed to them on a platinum platter and are enraged that people oppose her as fiercely as they did in 2008.

So they started calling us sexist, and racist, and "Berniebro" to diminish our voices.

And still we resist.

[noiretextatique]

276. Hell yes!

Nothing Democratic about that behavior...at all.

[noiretextatique]

73. Centrism has its purists too

It just is not the best approach at this time.

[Kelvin Mace]

80. It is "pragmatism" on this issue that led us to where we are today

[Bettie]

305. Why are you going on and on about designer gowns?

Do you really think being 100% pro choice is limited only to wealthy women who go to fancy parties?

That is just weird.

[noiretextatique]

248. Can you believe this bullshit?

I am glad I am seeing it...really hard to believe.

[beam me up scottie]

250. Why aren't other Hillary supporters calling this out?

You know if a Bernie supporter said something like that they'd be screaming bloody murder.

[Kelvin Mace]

79. A woman either has control of her own body, or doesn't.

Which is it?

And by the way, civil rights are not determined by polls.

[Barack_America]

120. Thank you.

Exactly.

[merrily]

105. False. Sanders is not an extremist. Hillary just leads from behind

From way behind, in some cases.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12777036

Moreover, what is right and just and necessary is not determined by polling, or putting a wet finger up to the wind.

Sandra Day O'Connor, a Republican, ffs, built a health of the mother exception into most SCOTUS cases already.

[Buzz cook]

125. Late term abortions are the most medically necessary.

If we learned anything in the aftermath of the assassination of Dr. Till it is the importance of access to late term abortion.

We have done a poor job of educating the public indeed.

[Zen Democrat]

126. Not so. 3rd tri abortions are often for the life of the mother.

But it doesn't matter. It's not something the govt should be involved in. It's medical. It's between patient and doctor.

[ljm2002]

149. So arguing to maintain our abortion rights...

...is being a diehard extremist?

Wow. Are you sure you're on the right site? Seriously?

[MaggieD]

153. Yes, you are extremist of you think we should abort at 32 weeks

Unless the life of the mother is at stake. I am sorry to be the one to break this basic morality to you. But it is one the vast majority of humanity shares.

[Scootaloo]

173. Who here is saying you should abort?

Please provide quotes.

[beam me up scottie]

188. What about severe fetal abnormalities that aren't discovered until the third trimester?

Your "basic morality" dicatates that women should be forced to carry the fetus to term?

If that's your idea of morality I'd hate to see what you think is immoral.

[noiretextatique]

278. Oh you just won't stop

How many people have told you that late-term abortions are generally performed to save the life of the mother, or if the fetus has severe abnormalities? You refuse to get it.

[ljm2002]

290. That is some serious twist you got goin' on...

...we are talking about abortion rights, and whose choice it is, and current laws vs. making them more restrictive, and you think that means we're all just gung ho to go git us one o' them thar late-term abortions.

Truly pathetic and truly, truly vile.

[noiretextatique]

247. No you are not an extremist

These folks are twisting themselves in knots to support an untenable position of their candidate. She has stated that she is willing to consider a constituional amendment to ban late-term abortions.

[Scootaloo]

152. Hi MaggieD. Women's rights aren't decided by popular opinion.

I just thought you might like a reminder.

[MaggieD]

158. Well please do man 'splain to me why we should abort at 32 weeks

When the life of the mother is not at stake. That should be interesting.

The extremist point of view never wins election. I just thought you might like a reminder.

[Scootaloo]

161. Who said you should?

I'm informing you that women's rights are not dependant on popular opinion. You seem to not actually know this.

[beam me up scottie]

168. Please don't church 'splain to me why I should have to carry a severely deformed fetus to term.

You don't have the right to make that decision for other women, it's not your body and it's not your choice.

[noiretextatique]

249. The better question us: Is a constitutional amendment necessaey?

Since late'term abortions are rare, and done to save the life of the mother?

[mhatrw]

314. And Camp Weathervane has to blow however the wind blows. Even if that means turning a woman's own

body into a forced incubation chamber that has a good chance of killing her.

[Act_of_Reparation]

316. With all due respect...

...when 80% of Americans have degrees in medicine or public health, I'll start giving a shit what 80% of Americans think about medicine or public health.

[tk2kewl]

60. not new from Hillary

"If there is a way to structure some kind of constitutional restrictions that take into account the life of the mother and her health, then I am open to that, but I have yet to see the Republicans willing to actually do that, and that would be an area where if they included health, you could see constitutional action." -- Hillary Clinton

&text=Hillary%20Clinton%20on%20abortion&via=YouTube&related=YouTube,YouTubeTrends,YTCreators

[bettyellen]

66. Taking to account the life and health of the woman means it is between her and her doctor.

It's clever phrasing meant to assuage the guilt of "on the fencers" who are basically against late term abortions. But it leaves them up to the people involved. Works for me.

[noiretextatique]

251. This just makes me ill every time I see it

[JDPriestly]

137. Hillary is a Methodist. The Methodist church supports a woman's right to choose but mostly

when necessary and tries to work for as few abortions as possible.

I think we should ask Hillary to express any reservations she has about a woman's right to choose.

I don't know whether she has them, but she might. She has a somewhat evangelical view on religion. Ask Octafish about this.

[Ned_Devine]

2. The battery lights are flashing on this one

[ibegurpard]

4. would that surprise you?

[Barack_America]

8. Actually, yes. I thought she was unequivocally pro-choice.

I never would have thought she believe the federal government has jurisdiction over women's bodies.

Her answer honestly shocked me.

[jeff47]

23. She never has been.

She's always been willing to "compromise". She'll happily legislate away some "icky" part...and then the next one...and then the next one...

The current "icky" part is late-term abortions.

It's never quite made clear what the point of these compromise are. It's not like anti-choicers will stop.

[Bubzer]

46. If I had to guess...I'd say it's a money issue. There's a lot more money in delivery than abortion.

[beam me up scottie]

48. Could be religious beliefs and/or pandering to the religious too.

Just like when she opposed marriage equality.

[Bubzer]

55. A twofer... I could totallly see that.

[beam me up scottie]

58. She pandered to the anti-choice zealots before.

She's courting more conservative Christians, it's not like this is a big shock to anyone who's been paying attention.

[Bubzer]

61. Certainly not. What DOES surprise me is how bad she's let her surogates get toward progressives.

She absolutely cannot with without liberals... no way, no how. Her true believers are driving off hoards of people who might have otherwise voted for her. Speaking as a member of those hoards... now, I'm a Bernie or bust voter.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

51. Oh get real

You Sanders supporters have quite the imagination. Abortion is legal and will stay legal.

[jeff47]

97. You guys need to get your story straight.

After all, making abortion illegal is one of the primary cudgels used by Clinton supporters when demanding support for your candidate.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

100. No you need to get your logic straight

Hillary Clinton is not going to make abortion illegal. I can't understand why you think she would other than you guys try to throw shit at the wall to see what sticks.

[jeff47]

102. Quote where I said she would make it illegal. Then you can talk about logic.

Until then, you're gonna have to live with what I actually said, that she is not 100% pro-choice.

[JonLeibowitz]

235. Damn, this thread is golden for Hillary supporter memes getting bashed to pieces....

...by themselves!

I love the smell of rotting memes in the morning.

[noiretextatique]

284. Again...we are talking about what she said

She is open to a constitutional fix to ban late-term abortions. Thise are HER words.

[dflprincess]

101. Really?

Have you been paying attention to some of the laws passed in some states?

[NickB79]

130. It will always be legal, so long as you can find a clinic and get there

Which is becoming more and more impossible for millions of women thanks to TRAP laws that keep getting passed.

Tell the hypothetical pregnant woman in Texas who doesn't have a car, works two part-time jobs to support herself, has to take several days off work to take a bus to a clinic hundreds of miles from home (because all the ones near her were closed down by state regulations), has to get a hotel because there's a 24 to 48 hr waiting period between initial counseling and actual abortion, how abortion is legal and will stay legal, so she shouldn't worry about it.

[beam me up scottie]

140. Abortion will always be safe and accessible for rich women too.

It's the poor women who suffer and die, always has been.

[Karma13612]

68. The more you know.......

I'm with Bernie.

I am rarely surprised by any of his actions or policies.

His positions come from deep consideration and rational thought...

Just love the guy.

[Fast Walker 52]

131. well, keep in mind-- she has to consider all the different political implications

before she decides what her answer will be.

[noamnety]

5. Yes, yes you did.

I believe Camp Weathervane refers to that as "nuance."

[Starry Messenger]

6. No.

[olddots]

9. sometimes the script supervisor's mic is off

and there is a glitch in the reading .

[Kittycat]

10. Yes. "Let's put this in to context"

Isn't Bernie's direct response and honesty on important issues like this refreshing?

None of my neighbor or government's business. Stay out of my exam room.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

11. She's said before that she wants abortions 'safe, legal, and "rare"...'

It's her way of dogwhistling to the pro-lifers that she might be open to more restrictions.

[Jefferson23]

31. Yes it is her cynical approach to politics, never principled. n/t

[noiretextatique]

76. She said she is open to a constitutional amendment

To ban late-term abortions, with usual exception for the life of the mother. Problem is: most late-term abortions are done to save the life of the mother. That's a plan, not a dog whistle.

[Skid Rogue]

17. Once you get to the third trimester

then you begin dealing with the viability of the fetus. A lot of pro-choice women and men have issues with that. It's why people talk about "provisions for the health of the mother." It's a very common conversation.

[Barack_America]

19. I'm an MD. I know this fully well.

I'm also a geneticist and am aware of many instances in which termination is the humane thing to do for mother and baby. No physician needs to have to run that humanity by a bureaucrat for approval.

[Matariki]

22. +1

That should be obvious, shouldn't it? It's not like people abort in the third trimester (or ever actually) on a whim or for jollies.

[jillan]

37. Thank you! It all boils down to one thing - it is not the government's business!

[Mnpaul]

77. Jesse Ventura nails it on this issue

Illegalizing abortions won't stop abortions

My views on abortion come from my mom. She was a nurse in surgery for her entire adult life, and used to tell me how terrible it was before Roe v Wade--when back-alley abortions often placed the woman's life in danger. Today, some people live under a false premise that, if the government makes something illegal, it will go away. But then the illegal activity is simply controlled by an underground or criminal element. And, in the case of abortion, you will not receive the safety and precautions necessary.

Keep abortion legal on privacy grounds

It’s not so much that I think abortion should be legal as it is that I don’t think it can be made illegal without abusing the Constitution. Unless the government barged in at the precise moment the woman was there in the operating room with her feet in the stirrups, how would the government know she was getting an abortion? How could they even know she is pregnant without infringing upon her rights? Ultimately, I have to support keeping it legal. The government has to stay out of this one.

Doesn’t support abortion, but leave them legal

I don’t support abortion. I could never participate in one. But I think it would be a mistake to make them illegal again. What criminalization will do is force women into garages and back alleys, and then you’re going to have two lives in jeopardy. My mom, who was a nurse, used to talk about the messes that would come in after back-alley abortions went wrong. The way to stop abortion is to deal, philosophically & spiritually, with the people who get them. And that’s not something government can touch

Abortion decision belongs with the woman and who she chooses

The decision of whether or not to have an abortion does not belong in politics. It belongs with the woman, her family, her physician and possibly her clergy. The choice is personal, not political, and should stay that way. We have too much governmental intrusion into peoples’ lives, we should decrease that intrusion, not impose it upon something that should be so personal.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Jesse_Ventura_Abortion.htm

I only wish that Democrats could explain it so well.

[jillan]

78. Very well said. Thanks for sharing.

[Mnpaul]

99. It's what you get when someone gives their views

based on experience and the law unfettered by politics. That is what I like about Jesse. He will tell you what he believes not "what you want to hear". I may not agree with everything but I know where he stands on the issue. Bernie is like this too.

[Skid Rogue]

42. Pretty much with you on that.

[Arazi]

82. Then don't vote for HRC. She's wrong on this issue

[Bad Thoughts]

83. A-frickin'-men. eom

[redwitch]

111. Thank you!

"No physician needs to have to run that humanity by a bureaucrat for approval."

[mountain grammy]

221. Thank you...

[jeff47]

26. Because there's a huge problem with women getting late-term abortions for fun.

How about this radical idea: Trust women.

[beam me up scottie]

29. No kidding, women don't get late term abortions unless there's something terribly wrong.

And doctors don't perform them because a woman "changed her mind", that's a right wing talking point.

[Skid Rogue]

56. 100% correct...

[Skid Rogue]

50. No, of course not

I've been pro-choice all my life and I know the numbers. I also know how women feel about these issues and I trust their judgement. However, I accept that good, pro-choice people, have differing opinions.

[jeff47]

98. If you actually do trust women, there's no need for legislation.

They'll do the right thing without it.

As Oregon (no abortion laws at all) demonstrates.

[Kelvin Mace]

87. One more time:

A woman either has control of her own body, or she doesn't. Third trimester abortions are usually the result of something gone horribly wrong, and the last damn thing a woman needs at that time is someone like HRC enabling the anti-abortion loons.

[Skid Rogue]

123. LMAO!!!!

I proudly stand with NARAL, Planned Parenthood and Hillary Clinton, the next President of the United States!!!!!

Have fun fellows

[Scootaloo]

156. No you don't. NARAL and PP do not believe women's rights are decided by popular opinion

[Kelvin Mace]

209. Right, so women cease to have rights once they get pregnant

Got it.

[Oilwellian]

21. Hillary Clinton: I Could Compromise on Abortion

Video

[beam me up scottie]

25. It's not the first time:

Q: Are there circumstances when the government should limit choice?

LAZIO: I had a pro-choice record in the House, and I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I support a ban on partial-birth abortions. Senator Moynihan called it “infanticide.” Even former mayor Ed Koch agreed that this was too extreme a procedure. This is an area where I disagree with my opponent. My opponent opposes a ban on partial-birth abortions.

CLINTON: My opponent is wrong. I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected. I’ve met women who faced this heart-wrenching decision toward the end of a pregnancy. Of course it’s a horrible procedure. No one would argue with that. But if your life is at stake, if your health is at stake, if the potential for having any more children is at stake, this must be a woman’s choice.

Source: Senate debate in Manhattan , Oct 8, 2000

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm

And again just last year:

[loyalsister]

74. Using the religious right's language is telling

"Partial birth abotion" is a term invented to horrify people into supporting late term abortion bans. The also used a distinctly anti woman narrative to convince people that women were deciding to have abortions in their 8th month on a whim.
No one who buys into that lie can legitimately call themselves a feminist.

[beam me up scottie]

75. Yes, that's another thing, the right wing dog whistle term she used.

If it was just one statement or a slip of the tongue I could give her the benefit of the doubt but it's not. I don't trust her.

[Jefferson23]

27. The denial in this thread is illuminating from her supporters. Nice of Hillary to support

more "pragmatic" positions.

[SheilaT]

28. As I'm fond of saying, If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one.

Otherwise don't think you have any fucking business telling some woman what she can or cannot do with regards to her own body. You are not her. You don't know the circumstances of her life and pregnancy. So butt the hell out.

[senz]

33. She is not 100% prochoice.

She said she'd okay 3rd trimester abortions only to save the health and life of the mother. So if the woman's life and health are not at stake, the government can force her to carry the pregnancy to completion. Once the unwanted child is born to the unwilling woman, no one will care what happens to either of them, anyway.

So, no, Hillary Clinton is not 100% prochoice.

Bernie is 100% prochoice. He said the decision is between the woman, her doctor, and her family.

[MisterP]

40. that's pre-Roe, as DUers point out

[jillan]

36. Well she was on Faux so she had to give them the answer they wanted to hear.

[noretreatnosurrender]

38. This Explains A Lot

Looks like most of the feminists are on the Sanders side. We trust women to make their own decision not some legislator. We also didn't buy the BS that Bernie was sexist last night at the debate because he didn't let Hillary interrupt him. Who ARE you faux feminists?

[Blue_In_AK]

41. Third-trimester abortions

are almost always conducted because of serious health issues with the mother or with the fetus. Whether or not to have an abortion should always be a decision between a woman and her doctor.

[Raster]

44. ABSOLUTELY!

There is NO COMPROMISE on this position. NONE!

[BainsBane]

45. No. Here is the video

[Barack_America]

53. Thanks, but it she still says she supports a 3rd trimester ban...

...with exceptions she would graciously allow. Which means she believes in legislating the uterus.

I'm honestly shocked.

[BainsBane]

65. Have you read Roe v Wade?

That is already the law. Roe banned abortion in the third trimester except for the life of the mother. The current standard is viability.

No one who cares about this issue so deliberately distorts it. She "hesitates." She didnt hesitate. She didn't stay silent while the right was attacking Planned Parenthood. She didn't go in front of the cameras and talk about MSNBC programming decision at the time, as thought that mattered more than women's rights. She proactively defended them. She didn't call them establishment, and her supporters didn't join with the pro-life movement to stop funding to PP and the nation's poorest and most vulnerable women they serve.

None of this will make up for the 1.5 million votes that Bernie trails Clinton by. It instead shows policy and principle means nothing in compared to one man's political career.

No honest human being argues that Clinton is worse on reproductive rights than Bernie. NARAL and PP endorsed her, and her record is clear. The tactics of those allied against her are also clear. I judge NARAL and PP infinitely more credible.

[Nonhlanhla]

72. Exactly

Hillary's position is in line with Roe v Wade.

[Barack_America]

85. Is that "good enough" or not?

[Nonhlanhla]

92. Yes

Roe v Wade draws the line at viability. That is usually seen as 24 weeks for a healthy pregnancy. For an unhealthy pregnancy that point may never come. Life of the mother should always be paramount.

Here are the real battle lines:
1. Access (many states have barely anyclinics left)
2. Efforts to ban abortions after 20 weeks (which is particularly cruel towards those whose feti are diagnosed with serious disorders at the 20 weeks anatomy scan) - se Kasich's record on this (and he's supposedly the most moderate Republican presidential candidate!)
3. Catholic health services taking over many rural hospitals, thus leaving women with no other options (did you know that they won't do an "abortion" even in the case of a tubal pregnancy - they will just remove the tube, thus replacing a simple medication procedure with surgery and in the process halving a woman's reproductive ability).

[dflprincess]

107. I know two women who have had late term abortions -

in neither case was the mother's health in question.

In both cases the babies (and I say babies because that's how their parents thought of them) were very much wanted but in both cases gross fetal anomalies did not show up on the ultra sounds until the end of the 2nd/beginning of the third trimester. In both cases it was not clear whether the babies would make it to the 40th week but it was clear that even if they did, they would not survive. Both mothers chose to have labor induced (though they were given other options).

If 3rd trimester abortions were banned except for the mother's health, as Hillary supports, both these women would have had to go up to 12 weeks knowing the children they were carrying were doomed.

But apparently both you and your candidate would be okay with that.

[Nonhlanhla]

151. Under Roe v Wade they would not be banned

Since those pregnancies can never be viable.

[dflprincess]

154. I know Roe does not ban them - otherwise these women would not have been able to have them

But Hillary says she supports restrictions with only exceptions for the "life or health of the mother". In these cases the mothers' health was not an issue so Clinton would apparently not have any trouble keeping women from ending pregnancies like these.

[Nonhlanhla]

163. It's not clear to me that she is in fact saying that

And too tired now to go into more details

[Skid Rogue]

86. LOL! Great answer!!!!!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

96. Apparently YOU haven't read Roe v. Wade --

It in NO WAY bans third trimester abortions outright, it says that a State may limit abortion in the 3rd trimester, just so long as an exemption for the life/health of the mother is in effect.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/410/113

You do know the difference in the use of the words "may" and "shall" when it comes to law??

And, as of 2013, 9 States and the District of Columbia had NO specific laws prohibiting abortion after a certain point in pregnancy, meaning third trimester abortions can take place:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/18/us/politics/abortion-restrictions.html?_r=0

So Hillary Clinton advocating for a federal law banning third trimester abortions with the exception of the life/health of the mother IS a big fucking deal because Roe does NOT call for that.

[Raster]

167. Get it!

[noretreatnosurrender]

191. Thank you

It's pathetic that Hillary supporters can't even get this issue correct. It seems all they care about is WINNING.

[beam me up scottie]

212. Preach it, sister!

If Bernie had said those things about abortion Hillary supporters would be calling for his head.

[BainsBane]

233. Viability is the law

There is NO WHERE in America where a woman can get an abortion in the last weeks of pregnancy absent a danger to herself or the fetus. A doctor could and would lose his license for performing an abortion past viability.

To even pretend that the issue with abortion rights is in the third trimester is disingenuous. Throughout great swaths of the country, women have no access to reproductive healthcare. What has Sanders said about that? I haven't heard him say a thing, in countless debates he hasn't raised the issue. He didn't speak out against the right wing filming of PP, designed to close down clinics and with them deprive women of equal rights. He instead commented on MSNBC programming until cornered on the subject. Clinton proactively defended PP. Then when PP endorsed Clinton, he insulted them as "establishment" and did nothing to stop efforts by some of his supporters to deprive PP of funding and with it deny millions of women access to reproductive healthcare.


This entire attack smacks of desperation. Distortion will not make up for Sanders 1.5 million vote deficit that grows with each electoral contest.

[myrna minx]

299. Thank you! This thread is very troubling - as well as insightful.

I'm rather shocked by the anti-choice responses.

[blackspade]

113. So explain this quote then:

"If there is a way to structure some kind of constitutional restrictions that take into account the life of the mother and her health, then I am open to that, but I have yet to see the Republicans willing to actually do that, and that would be an area where if they included health, you could see constitutional action." -- Hillary Clinton

If it is settled Constitutional law then why the prevaricating?
Why is she saying "if" there was a way? It's already a done deal, right?
If the Repubs included health? What Constitutional action?

This is part of her problem with many people. She says this nonsense stuff that leaves people wondering what she stands for.

[merrily]

119. Roe v. Wade was not the last case on choice, though.

No honest human being argues that Clinton is worse on reproductive rights than Bernie.

Deceptive statement.

No honest human argues that Bernie is worse than Hillary. He's had a 100% record from NARAL since 1991--and he's not offered to negotiate a Constitutional amendment. Also, he doesn't lead from behind on so called cultural issues, as is Hillary's tendency.

[Duval]

144. Thanks, merrily. nt

[morningfog]

172. Bernie does not have to earn 1.5 million votes, he needs 200 delegates

to catch up.

[Vattel]

228. Roe didn't ban any abortions in the third trimester

It held that states may ban third trimester abortions unless the health or life of the pregnant woman was at stake.

[BainsBane]

231. And states have

in fact many ban them in the second semester and are working furiously to deny women all access. To pretend the problem with abortion rights is that women can't have an abortion until right up until birth is ludicrous.

[Vattel]

297. You don't think it is a problem

if a woman can't have a third trimester abortion in cases of fetal abnormalities so severe that the fetus cannot benefit from life?

[eridani]

296. Yes. Ro v Wase is the law. So why is she aaying she'd go along with a CONSTITUTIONAL

AMENDMENT??

[Kalidurga]

47. Well it's okay if a few women die...

because someone thought that the woman and her doctor just weren't quite smart enough to know if it was a medical necessity or not. I mean who the F do these late term abortion opponents think is going to say if it's for health reasons? If the doctor says it is are they going to say it's not the fetus is viable and over ride the doctor. Will a woman have to go to a panel of "experts" with Ted Cruz as the panel leader? I really want to know how they are going to enforce this ban on late term abortions.

[longship]

57. She's not sure yet. She'll get back to you. nt

[Bleacher Creature]

63. Sanders should definitely go after her on women's issues and reproductive rights!

Because she has no history on those issues and is completely vulnerable to his mansplaining.

[Kip Humphrey]

64. Well, 1st, she had already evolved several weeks ago to being open to certain late-term procedure

restrictions, paraphrasing because I'm with the guy who gave the correct answer so don't pay as much attention to Hilary's evolving. 2nd., she was in "enemy" territory and had to first process those fight/flight impulses and evaluate the situation in order to proceed.

[bettyellen]

67. Nope. This is bullshit. Only the ill informed buy this crap!

[wildeyed]

70. No.

Really? This is the best you got?

[NurseJackie]

95. Apparently. But it's not working. The pressure is on ...

... and time is running out. Tick-tock!

[noiretextatique]

71. YES...Clinton is open to a constitutional amendment

To ban late-term abortions. Typical Clintonism...sell out the very people who vote for you.

[cherokeeprogressive]

84. I bet she's damn glad they didn't ask about the Death Penalty isn't she...

OMFG.

[SciDude]

88. Hillary is on the side of whatever the polls tell her...

This is very obvious to any objective person.

[Jefferson23]

89. Denying she hasn't evolved AGAIN since her 2008 RARE abortion position is absurd.

To call her a champion on women's rights is laughable.

[Arazi]

91. Home abortion google searches spike when abortion restrictions go up

Women WILL find (catastrophic) ways to end a pregnancy

And their lives. As a physician you know the dire consequences

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/03/07/home_abortion_google_searches_spike_when_legal_abortion_restrictions_increase.html

Coat hangers

[madamesilverspurs]

93. Yes, but no.

She looked pleased to have the opportunity to address the issue, but had to quickly figure out how much she could squeeze into a tiny moment of time. Her response was spot on for choice.

[Autumn]

94. Yes and that was shocking.

[merrily]

103. She said flat out that she would consider negotating a constitutional amendment about choice.

[Herman4747]

106. Hillary -- You Forgot...

...you veer off to the right AFTER you win the nomination, NOT BEFORE.

[Barack_America]

162. I knew she couldn't hold for a second without Bernie beside her.

I'm just surprised that she turned the hardest right on choice.

[onecaliberal]

108. Yes, she said she would compromise with republicans so long as they made consessions

About the life and health of mother.
This is NOT good.

[dflprincess]

109. I missed it but, probably.

What do the polls say?

[Merryland]

121. She said the same thing in an interview with Chuch Todd last year.

[AzDar]

127. She stands for NOTHING. A human weather vane...

[senz]

129. Hill fans think Hill's PP and NARAL endorsements would make a difference

to any woman who is forced to carry an unwanted fetus to term.

[BreakfastClub]

234. They do make a difference to any thinking person. If they

endorse her, she is clearly, unequivocally for abortion rights. They should know. They don't just randomly pick someone. They choose to endorse the person who will BEST protect those rights. They would not choose someone, male or female, to endorse unless there was ample proof that this person wholeheartedly supports a woman's right to choose.

[senz]

236. And yet she's not. She's open to "third trimester restrictions."

She's shifting -- as she always does.

[beam me up scottie]

237. Except she's NOT or she wouldn't support a ban on late term abortions.

If Hillary was "clearly, unequivocally for abortion rights" we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[noiretextatique]

282. Except, she's not

She has stated many times that she is open to a constitutuonal amendement to ban late-term abortions...with exceptions for the reasons they are usually done. I guarantee you PP and NARAL will be vocal opponents if she wins and tries to do that. And so will most Democrats.

[Zen Democrat]

135. Hillary holds nothing so dear that it can't be dealt away. It's the Clinton Way.

[Warren DeMontague]

146. IOKWHRCDI

[farleftlib]

155. She CANNOT be trusted

She will sell us women out in a heartbeat if she thought she could get away with it. Nobody is safe when the weathervane flips directions.

[MaggieD]

177. HE cannot be trusted

Every sentient woman who gives a shit about this issue knows damn well Bernie couldn't care less about it.

[farleftlib]

178. He doesn't want to put restrictions on it like she does

Can you read? Bernie has 100% rating and is not talking about supporting a ban like Hillary is. If you want to defend her you need facts and the facts are on Bernie's side, not hers. She's a sellout, always has been, always will be.

[kstewart33]

207. Maybe Hillary has a problem with an abortion a week or two before the baby is born.

When the health of the woman is not at risk.

If she does, bravo.

[Barack_America]

216. This is ludicrous. No physician would do such a thing.

And if some horrendously unethical physician would, Hillary's amendment is not going to stop this individual.

All Hillary's amendment would do is make a horrendous situation more awful for women facing the most agonizing choice of their lives. Women will die as a result of this amendment.

And why? To pander to the Right? You can't convince me for a moment that Hillary isn't informed enough to believe this "frivolous" late term abortion shit.

[kstewart33]

222. BA, Bernie is not the Saint. And Hillary is not the Satan.

Reading the primaries forum makes one wonder if you all should just take Hillary outside and shoot her, in a quest to save our democracy from her wretched hands and mind.

Geez Louise.

[noiretextatique]

242. Wow

Just wow. You have no idea whay you're talking about...none.

[beam me up scottie]

245. That's a right wing talking point.

No woman would abort a third trimester fetus unless there's something terribly wrong with it.

[noiretextatique]

243. Wrong. I do not trust the person who is open to a ban

A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT to ban late-term abortions. She is willing to sell put women to score point with Republicans.

[Karmadillo]

205. Goldwater Girl begins the Great Pivoting.

[liberal_at_heart]

215. Frightening to see her go even further right even before the GE. Can you imagine the

garbage she will be spewing in the GE in order to win Republicans over?

[kstewart33]

223. Yes. Hillary is the Satan!

Her evil taxes the imagination, that's for sure.

[Warren DeMontague]

240. wouldn't be the first time, would it?

Clinton Seeks Middle Ground in Abortion Debate

[Optimism]

285. The Hillary supporters are ...

honestly NOT doing their candidate any favors in this thread. We feminists (male and female) will not be inspired to get out to the polls this November to support someone (anyone) who can equivocate and triangulate on such a basic, intrinsic right such as this. This decision is between a woman and her doctor. Full stop. I could give a rats ass if Planned Parenthood has endorsed Hillary ... if they're down with this, well some of my respect for them has been lost as a result. I'd heard that the endorsement was an executive decision there anyway (and isn't the daughter of the director on the Hillary campaign as well?)

[mikehiggins]

288. I'll have to check with the polls and focus groups before I can give you an answer on that. n/t

[Fairgo]

292. This is the best you will get from her

She will blow to the right eventually. Just like fracking she's for choice with an asterisk

[auntpurl]

293. If I were a single-issue voter, that issue would be abortion.

I support Hillary Clinton. She knows she has to win a general election. If she came out and said "All abortions, no matter what the circumstances, should be legal", the RW will run that quote in all 50 states for the entire GE. She is taking a sensible approach. She is not compromising on reproductive rights, she's speaking about it realistically and with the knowledge that she needs to appeal to all kinds of voters. She is a skilled, experienced politician who knows she needs to get into the office before she can make any progress on women's rights, reproductive rights, etc.

Would I love it if she came out and said, "Abortion should not be on the table for debate because it is already the law of the land. Next question!" Yes, of course. But this is America, and abortion is still a wedge issue that she needs to address in a calm, sensible manner. I would love it if we could progress past this point. But we haven't yet.

[Barack_America]

298. Some things are not for sale.

Some things are not brought to the negotiating table.

Women's choice is one of those things.

[liberal_at_heart]

302. Democrats have negotiated on every Democratic Platform from war to education to

food stamps and SSI and now they are paving the way to negotiate on abortion. They have proven time and time again they are willing to negotiate on everything with Republicans when Republicans refuse to negotiate on anything. This is too much. There is literally nothing left of the Democratic Party.

[fredamae]

301. That was my take away-

And it is glaringly obvious we are slowly sliding backwards the past 6 (especially years). So, IS everything Really being done to Protect Womens Rights or ??????? not????

[Waiting For Everyman]

315. She'll "look into it" and maybe "evolve".

As on every other issue. #WhichHillary